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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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 Posted: 19:51 - 02 Oct 2012  Post subject: DSA making it up as they go with the new tests |
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Just some lulz. The new tests next year are pretty strict about the test bikes. The list is here, but the significant bit is that for "A2" test bikes, which must be in the 25-35kW range, they have this to say:
| DSA OCD spackers wrote: | For category A2 & A DSA will accept evidence from manufacturers or official importers that a specific model of motorcycle meets these requirements and will publish this information where it applies to a number of machines of a specific type.
For machines not on this list or where an individual machine has been restricted to comply with the minimum test vehicle requirements it will be accepted for test providing certified proof of compliance or restriction is available for the examiner. This must be a certificate or on headed paper from an official source such as a main dealer, official importer or recognised specialist in restricting vehicles. Dyno certificates are not acceptable |
Well, that's interesting, and also a ball ache for training schools or riders wanting to put A2 candidates on full power bikes. So a quick FOI went in to see what their thinking was, and there's the reply. It's uncharacteristically honest.
| DSA spackers in BOLD wrote: |
1) The DSA's definition of "certificate", and specifically how that definition is distinct from "[or] headed paper".
We do not hold a definition of a ‘certificate’ or how this differs from ‘headed paper’. Under FoIA, we are only required to provide recorded information and are not obliged to create new information to answer a request.
I can confirm, however, that these two options were introduced to create as much scope as possible for people when sourcing evidence of the power band of their machine. We will accept documents issued in good faith from a creditable professional source. Each document will be assessed on its face value and with the potential to be qualified with regard to their legitimacy.
2) The DSA's understanding of the legislative, statutory or regulatory basis for "certification" of motorcycle restriction, if any.
The onus to ensure all legal requirements are met to ride a machine sits with the licence holder. They must be in a position to demonstrate to any person(s) with a valid interest, for example, the police, and insurance companies, that they and their machine are compliant with road traffic law. This includes evidencing the power of a machine where a restriction applies.
3) The complete list of the "recognised specialists" from whom the DSA will accept "proof of restriction".
We do not hold a list of recognised specialists.
4) The documented records of the process that was followed by the DSA to determine that "headed paper from [a] recognised specialist in restricting vehicles" shall be considered as "proof" that the vehicle is actually restricted, while a "dyno certificate" shall not. Please include details of relevant meeting minutes, internal communications, and any consultations that were held in regard to making this decision.
We do not hold any recorded information about the process followed to determine that a vehicle is restricted. It is widely known, however, that Dyno tests can produce differing results dependent on how the testing machinery is operated, for example altering the rear sprocket will give an indication that the machine in question produces more power. Given the variation in results obtainable from Dyno testing, we will accept documents issued in
good faith from a creditable professional source. Each document will be assessed on its face value and with the potential to be qualified with regard to their legitimacy. This removes the need for a separate Dyno check which has questionable validity. |
Well. Half of that appears to be bull, and t'other half all shit.
I think "fuck off, peon" might have been even more honest, but you can't fault them for sticking to their guns, even though they can't - or won't - really explain why.
Probably not a big deal - I'm sure Paddy can upgrade his "certificates" to be from a "creditable professional source", even though the DSA have no idea who they'd "recognise" as such. 
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| Zen Dog |
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Zen Dog
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Posted: 20:22 - 02 Oct 2012  Post subject: |
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So the upshot is, print out a certificate, and make it look as official as possible, and what can they do? They have no higher authority to appeal to. 
Zen Dog
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Current - '94 VFR750FR (Dead), '00 VFR800FI, '11 600 Hornet - Previous - '11 CBF125, '10 Street Triple R, '92 MZ ETZ301, '05 TTR250, NSR125R, KMX125, "Honda" Win
My bike trip around S.E. Asia 2010/2011 |
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 21:40 - 02 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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Well, my (principled) beef is that because they won't define what they'll accept, it's entirely up to the DSA Derek on the day. One might accept your Paddycert, one might send you home. As you say, there's no right of appeal.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| Zen Dog |
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Zen Dog
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| Posted: 23:42 - 02 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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I completely agree. You'll just have insert your "official" cert into the best mancleavage you can muster, and wiggle provocatively. 
Realistically, they can spend all day arguing with pissed-off candidates, or just accept anything. The latter is a lot less hassle and is therefore what they will do the vast majority of the time.
The problem comes if they decide they don't like your face. Its massively open to abuse on that count.
Zen Dog
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Current - '94 VFR750FR (Dead), '00 VFR800FI, '11 600 Hornet - Previous - '11 CBF125, '10 Street Triple R, '92 MZ ETZ301, '05 TTR250, NSR125R, KMX125, "Honda" Win
My bike trip around S.E. Asia 2010/2011 |
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| Spudly |
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Spudly
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| Posted: 00:02 - 03 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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Interesting that a dyno reading is invalid because it may not be accurate (but will at least give a ballpark figure), but an MS Word templated certificate issued by Freddy Fucknuckle from Dodgy Certs 'R Us actually has a better than even chance of being accepted.
Do these people have shares in printer ink factories or something?
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 07:55 - 03 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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I wouldn't really try to read anything into it except "Because fuck you, that's why." Note the frank admission that there wasn't any thought put into it. 
| Zen Dog wrote: | Realistically, they can spend all day arguing with pissed-off candidates, or just accept anything. The latter is a lot less hassle and is therefore what they will do the vast majority of the time. |
Unless it's raining and they fancy an hour in the office, less arguing time. They get paid by the hour, and I don't see anyone getting a refund for not being able to prove that their bike is <=35kW. Given that they just gifted themselves some "Don't much like the cut of your gear" refusal superpowers, it's not a re-assuring progression.
Of course, I'm sure that most examiners will just get on with it, but the problem with leaving anything open to abuse is that the abusive will leap at the chance. It'll only take a few reports of "DSA Said No!" to sour yet more folk from even bothering - look at what happened when the new 2 part test came in. Numbers essentially halved overnight.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| yaigi |
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yaigi
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| Posted: 09:02 - 03 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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Well guys, you got a graphic designer right here you reckons she could knock up some pretty 'official' looking documents 
I do agree with the point already made about examiners knocking people back just cos they don't like the look of em though - that will happen, without a doubt.
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Currently own - Fazer 600, 2000, Red. (But no riding as baby on board atm) |
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| moonzoomer |
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moonzoomer
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Mr Calendar
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| Posted: 22:15 - 03 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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I can also see that if a school got such paperwork for their bikes it potentially may be excepted by one examiner and rejected by the next.
Odd about not accepting dyno results and then saying they'd accept paperwork from professional source. Anyone running a dyno I would expect to be a creditable professional source. What am I missing, if anything?
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 06:59 - 04 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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Beats me. On the face of it, it's ridiculous - why would they believe that a FI kit (for example, but who else are they thinking of?) does actually reduce the power in the way that it claims? Who ever checks them?
It seems clear that they're just going into "because fuck you, that's why" mode. I may bestir myself and see if Steve Baker or some other biking MP fancies taking a poke at them, but they do seem to be a law unto themselves.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| .Chris. |
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.Chris.
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Rogerborg
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Mr Calendar
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| Posted: 12:37 - 04 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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| Pete. |
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Pete.
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| Posted: 13:20 - 04 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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They don't even list any qualifying criteria as to what a 'creditable' source might be.
Morons.....
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a.k.a 'Geri'
132.9mph off and walked away. Gear is good, gear is good, gear is very very good |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 13 years, 156 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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