Which (Restricted) Bike ?

[Spy]

OK guys, following on from the saga that is my bike training/testing here https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=255347&highlight= ( ) I thought I would post a separate thread to get some advice on which bike I should be looking for.

Essentially, I hope to end up with a restricted (33bhp) licence soon and ideally want a 600cc bike I can restrict for a couple of years and then unleash.

The bike will mainly be used for commuting (80%) but also for a bit of fun on twisties at the weekend (20%). I would prefer a naked 600cc bike. I definitely don't like the bent over position of a super sports bike so bikes like Hornet/Fazer/Gladius/ER6 etc etc would be more up my street.

Ideally, I am not too concerned if the top end is restricted as I don't plan on doing anything above say 80mph but definitely more interested in ensuring low end acceleration/torque is not restricted so that it performs better in traffic/commuting, say between 0 and 50mph and doesn't lose too much compared to standard in this area.

So....which 600cc naked bikes would fulfil the above requirements better when restricted ?

[Tomzo47]

Bandit, dirt cheap to buy, run, insure and will have next to no problems, mines restricted and have toured 2 up and is fast enough to have some fun
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Ybr 125 > Bandit 650SA > GSXR 600 > Triumph Sprint St1050 > CB1300 > Z1000SX + FJ1200 (written off) > VFR750 >FJ1200

[Muscle Bike Rider]

Bandit, SV, Hornet, ER6, Fazer are all reported to restrict well, best advice is to go and have a sit on the bikes you like, they can all be restricted at the end of the day.
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Previously Known As A5tra_G
Old Bikes :2010 Kawasaki ER6 F & 2000 Honda VTR Firestorm
Current Bike : XJR1300

[sidewinder]

The sv 650 restricts well and should do what you want bandits are good for it to possibly 600 fazers as well
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"Nitrous is like a cheap hooker, you want to hit it but are scared of the consequences

[Teflon-Mike]

WHY a 600?
Why not a 500? Or a 550, or a 650, or even 750?

600cc is a class, populated dignificantly by 60=bhp 'fours' that just happens to be the most popular and the most insurance loaded.

Widening the horizons a bit, loads of bikes with the same look, same performance, if not actually better in restricted form, that are cheaper to buy, and run?

Why the fixation on 600's?!?! Especially as you don't even have one specifically in mind?
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
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[thepuma]

I've been looking myself the last few days and mulling over either a 250 stock or a restricted bike .

Keep looking at the usual suspects (SV,hornet,bandit etc) but nothing jumped out at me...till tonight......

Suzuki GSX650F.

Something I REALLY like about them.

So for me, its a toss up between that and a CBR250R. Can I convince myself I don't need an economical bike?
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YBR125 (SOLD) - CBR250R(SOLD) - CBR650F(SOLD) Current - Street Triple
765 RS

[Muscle Bike Rider]

GSX F 650 is quite goor on juice I belive, my son has one and loves it, think it has a 19ltr tank, I'll ask him what mileage he's getting. I know its a nice ride as I've used it a couple of times, smooth and fairly quick, not sure how it is restricted as his is full power.
____________________
Previously Known As A5tra_G
Old Bikes :2010 Kawasaki ER6 F & 2000 Honda VTR Firestorm
Current Bike : XJR1300

[Spy]

Mike, not tied to 600cc, aybe I just worded it wrong. I guess anything in the 500cc to 700c range would do

Also, I should say I want to get something second hand but not too old. Maybe between 2007-2009 models.

I have heard good things about teh SV650 but also that it can be uncomfortable on the wrists due to the riding position.

As for the GSX 650, I believe that is a fared bike which I don't want

[bikertomm]

[Teflon-Mike]

OK, well the top tips are twins, simply because two pots are two less to go wrong, and everything tends to be easier to get at. Making less power to start with, 45-60bhp as opposed to 60 to 100+ for a 600, tend to be easier to restrict and less emasculated by restriction; and possibly a tad peppier for it, as they aren't lugging weight designed to handle an excess of performance you wont be using.

Top five:
Suzuki GS500E
Kawasaki ER5
Honda CB500
Kawasaki GPz500S
Suzuki SV650

Motorcycle tax brackets are > 150cc (£16), > 400cc (£36) >600cc (£55) and over 600cc (£76)... which may be an influence, on the bigger twins.

GS500 is cheap, hardy and easy to DIY maintain, low tech air/oil cooled motor, and makes 45-50bhp as stock. Got a neat beam frame and mono-shock suspension, so is quite a nimble handling bike in class.

ER5 is rather unloved. Detuned GPz500S engine is water-cooled and a little less mechanic freindly than the GS, but not daunting, and has a pretty good reputation even in the higher state of tune in the GPz. rated at about 50bhp, curtecy of softer cam profiles and I think smaller carbs, it actually has more low down power and is more flexible. This bodes well for restriction, suggesting that clipping the top end, you'd have more 'useable' power accross the rev range than doing the same to a GPz engine. Twin shock chassis is low-tech, but well proven and handling is surprisingly good. And on an older bike, the simplicity of the twin-shock arrangement is to my mind a boon; there's less to go wrong, and its easier to overhaul, and a bike with low tech but good condition suspension will usually handle a lot better than one with sophisticated suspension that's clapped out. This particular bike is to my mind, very under rated, and there seem to be some pretty good bargains out there.

CB500 Its a Honda. That means 'better' finish and engineering, but this is a cost cutting entry level model, and some are dissapointed its not as great as they expect. Motor is water-cooled like the ER5, and has a reputation for being pretty trouble free to high mileages, BUT when they start developing 'little niggles' get shot quick, they quickly turn into a money pit! Suspension is simple twin-shock, again like the ER5, and a little less 'sharp'.Not bad handler though; they race these things in the CB500 cup and Super-Twins! They are a bit on the heavy side though; at 200Kg dry weight they are heavier than a CBR600, but that makes them stable and comfy, and some find it a plus point. Personally I find them a bit bland, and uninspiring; and good ones tend to be over-priced, cheap ones.... well see earlier comment about little niggles! Many were bought by schools as DAS bikes more still as Despatch bikes. There are a lot out there and what you get for your money varies a heck of a lot. But if you take your time, and pick your bike they can be a damn good early-rider... especially if you fancy a bit of track day sport or budget racing, via cup or twins. If I was 19 again... I'd be looking hard at one.

GPz500S See comments on ER5. Launched in an era of four-stroke-four fanatasism or two-stroke twin revelry; they were an interesting departure from the mainstream. Engine was claimed to be 'half' a GPX1000, and hence have all the over engineered legacy of Kawasaki's 'big Zeds' behind it, neatly wrapped in a stiff, lightweight box section cradle frame, with mono-shock rear suspension and 'sporty' fairings, it was vaunted as a 'great' every day, real world bike. It still is. They are generally reliable; early ones have some high mile issues with generator magnets coming adrift, but other wise pretty useful. Only issue is they have been around a long while, and many examples have suffered a lot of owner use neglect, and being that bit more sophisticated, can be that bite more tired and more difficult to sort. Otherwise they are an excellent more sporty early-rider or every day bike.

SV650 Marmite polarisation fo opinion on them. Styling is more modern, and yes a tad more sporty, but they are not a full on race replica. Water cooled V-Twin motor is less freindly to teh DIY mechanic, and again mono-shock suspension. Vaunted as the 'Baby' sport-twin, I think many had higher expectations of its sporting aspirations; but its proved itself well as a more sporty every day commuter, though DOES seem to be let down terribly by poor finish. Possibly lightest bike of the bunch though; and the most spritely. 75bhp as stock; I've actually considered one as an every day all rounder. Probably a tad more strangled by restriction though, but are commonly restricted and a favourite with folk wanting a more sporty more contemprary early-rider.

That's the top five, 'twins'. Scratting around, you have the more recent 600 or 650's priced above them, as well as more exotic stuff like the Ducati M600, or more quixotic like the Honda CX500. The well regarded Honda NTV650, or the other Honda VT500 derived twins, like the Africa Twin or the Transalp, that are more adventure sporty. All are worth considering.

Fours... nakeds? The obvious contenders would be

Suzuki N600 Bandit
Honda CB600 Hornet
Yamaha FZ600 Fazer
Yamaha XJ600 Diversion

Bandit is popularly aclaimed; old oil-boiler air-oil cooled motor is one of the least high tech and most renowned for reliability. Only the XJ600 is less sophisticated, purely air-cooled, and less powerful. I think both are only just around 60bhp. But thats still almost double what you are allowed and a lot to restrict down. XJ is only twin-shock in the bunch, and a soft mid-weight 'tourer'. Fazer is probably the pick of the crop. Very good alrounder and rather under rated. Hornet probably the most sophisticated of the bunch, the most expensive and most over rated.

And all are 600's, and popular ones, that are loaded in the insurance listings, and carrying an excess or weight and running costs for the performance they offer.

No Kawasaki in the list? If you must have a four, in this style, take a long hard look at the Kawasaki Zephyr 550. Air-cooled twin-shock simplicity, with 'retro' classic styling but benefit of more contemprary suspension and engineering. 50bhp its probably not as powerful as some of the twins, its old hat motor tuned for low down tractable power, which with four pots is very smooth and willing. It is to my mind a little gem, and I'd take one of these over a Bandit or XJ any day of the week.... restricted or not and probably get a lot more bike for my money.

Which leads into the 750's.... they did a 750 version of the Zephyr. again, air-cooled, twin shock simplicity, and 75bhp as stock. Yup, thats still a lot over the 33bhp limit, but detuned motor again, ought to take that restriction a lot more easily than 600 Fazer or Hornet. Not SO cheap as the 550, there are folk, who like myself rate the mid size zeph as a very capable, useful all-round motorcycle... though I have the Honda Rival CB Seven-Fifty..... which is also worth a look. Almost the same specs as the Zeph. Aircooled, twin-shock 75bhp. Not as stylish to many peoples eyes, and some say its handling is a bit 'soft', but it is comfy and if you want sharper handling, you play with the settings. Nice bit about it is maintenence free hydraulic tappets; just make sure you do the oil changes every 1000miles to stop them gumming up.

But best thing about the 750's is they have that extra low down grunt the 600's don't have, (which, is worth thinking about when restricting, as comment on ER5 vs GPz5) and they are often cheaper to insure, falling an unpopular hole in the groupings.

Ultimately, though there is a veritable shmorgas board of biking out there for you to sample..... and its not like marriage... bikes don't demand life-long commitment or even exclusivity...... and they dont take your house and half your future income if you decide to shift them on!

Important thing at the moment is to worry about getting that licence in the bag... thats the pass-port to all biking has to offer.

But as said in the other thread; widening horizons, looking at everything that's possible.... what about the idea of a naturally 33bhp complient 250 to get some time on a tiddler? Doesn't have to be forever, and they are cheap. And they can be a lot of fun.... especially if you get one with knoblies for a bit of off-roading.

You want something to look at, feed your imagination...... but open up the view; look at the whole spectrum, and let your imagination ponder ALL of it, rather than returning the whole while to the pre-conception.... once you have the licence... you have YEARS to chop and change and sample all different manner of bikes, big small, pretty, uglt, slow, fast, sweet, sour, and all points east.

Probably come back to the usual suspects above, BUT... dont dismiss it.... and go sit bikes, kick tyres and try them for size.

Often YOU dont choose the bike... the bike chooses you! You look at it, and then sit it, and just make a connection and you know its the one.... and more often, its the right one.
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[U_W v2.0]

to reiterate mikes last work on that,

if it feels right, it cant be wrong hehe
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BCF's biggest cunt list: Cansa, Pits, Rob

[Spy]

Thanks for taking the time to write up a very informative response there Mike

Some very interesting facts you point out there but the majority of the bikes you have recommended are not made any more and I am looking at buying a bike from around 2007-2009.

Any views on more modern bikes that would fit my criteria ?

Interestingly, you mention the ER5 but not the ER6. I believe the ER6 is a twin, any reason for not listing it ?

If I was to summarise, to check I have got this right, the 500cc and 750cc bikes typically have more low down torque which means they may be better suited to restricting eg don't need high revs to get the most of out of them which could be limited with a restrictor. Is that right ?

I agree with you that the priority should be focussing on passing first (which I am doing) but at the same time, I can't help dreaming of what might be

I definitely plan to go and sit on a few but want to narrow down the models I will seek out based on some research here to get a list of bikes that:
a) will work well with a restrictor
b) will deliver on low down torque
c) handle well
d) reliable etc etc

That way, at least when I find one I like the feel of, I will know that it ticks all the other boxes.

Ultimately, I would like a bike that will do me for the 2 years in restricted form but then I can take the restrictor off and will still want to enjoy it for another year or two before moving on to a different bike.

It looks like the bikes you have listed, many are quite old and not produced in 2007-2009 which is the target age I am looking for. Any newer recommendations eg FZ6 over the FZ600, 650 Bandit over 600 Bandit etc ?

Based on your knowledgeable view, value for money and the fact I want a more upright position without farings that may get damaged (if the bike is right), it sounds like I should short list the following:

- Kawasaki ER5
- Suzuki 600 Bandit (What about the 650 Bandit - any view on it ?)
- Yamaha FZ6 ?? (FZ600 is a little old)

**Talking of 600s....
Any thoughts about the Yamaha XJ6. It seems to have a good rep and delivers a lot of its power lower down the rev range. Would this make it good for restricting ?

Equally, the Kawasaki Versys has a tweaked ER6 engione to deliver power lower down at the expense of top end mph. Thoughts on that one too ?

The 750s sound interesting but the Zephyrs are very old now. Any more modern 750 that you think would fit my requirements ?

Thanks again for your help Mike.

[MotorbikerTom]

Had a GS500E under restriction for a year, was a good start, easy to work on (took the engine out once for fun), good to get used to the power of 33bhp, easy to ride and commute etc.

Now have a Hornet under restriction, quicker even though the same power, handles better, looks better, sounds better, although the tank range isn't as good.

Just sit on them, see which one you like the most and BINGO
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CBT: 19/02/11 - Mod 1: 27/03/11 - Mod 2: 01/04/11
'97 GS500E > '03 Hornet 600 > '16 Street Triple 675

[Rogerborg]

I still can't fathom why you're tolerating being fobbed off with a 25kW license, then jumping from a 125 to a bigger bike with the ink still wet. You don't magically get better the second the L plates come off and if you're going to drop a bike, drop the training school's bike - that's what you're paying them for.

Eh... calm... relax.

All of the modern "sensible 600s" are liked, there's no bad choice. All you're going to hear from people is "I like my 2007-2009 YamaHonZuki, so you should get one too unless you're a fag who wants to waste his money on a SuKawaDa".

Stuff I believe:
An ER6 wants to be 2009 or later, the earlier ones had multiple issues.
The Bandit 650 is a lardy bus with a fat seat, I've dropped one and don't like 'em. Owners who haven't dropped them will - of course - disagree.
Recluso likes her Divvy in restricted form.

You'll likely pay more for a Honda or Yamaha than a Kwak or Suzuki, so never mind the year, what's your budget?

£3K buys you a low mileage 2009 Gladius or SV650 (without haggling) or a 2007 to 2004 CBF600, depending on how optimistic the seller is. You're also more likely to find a pre-restricted Suzuki, if that's a consideration.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[Teflon-Mike]

I gave the ER6 a brief acknowledgement in the follow on, after top 5, where I said around above and below you have the newer 600 560 twins, and more exotic or older bikes. To my eye, they aren't that naked though....

But, to chuck it back at you... 2007-2009 models? Oh-Kay..... point was to WIDEN your horizons in the semi dream ponder realm of possibilities, NOT restrict it even more!

Old bikes? Yeah, DON'T dismiss them! You are applying English Car-Driver logic.

We in the UK are very much more age-aware and prejudiced. And we reckon on the 'life' of a car being pretty much directly proportional to its age.

Bikes ent cars. You need to think sporting equipment; gold clubs, fishing rods, multi-gyms!

What wears out bikes is pretty much how hard they are used, and how they are looked after.

2007 ER6, five years old; you are as like to be looking at an ex school DAS bike.... likely to be fairly low mileage, but, hard worked; oft dropped, and suffering a certain sloppyness from endless reving & clutch slip to master slow control, and knackered fork seals from ham fisted stopping and a many many practice e-stops.

1997 Zephyr 750? Fifteen years old, but quite likely lived in a dry garage, getting an annual service with its MOT each year, and doing perhaps 1000 gentle sunny day miles, by a more mature rider, who uses it to go to ride-outs and potter round town, maybe go to his Mums on a Sunday.

ER6 may be young, but doesn't mean its in any better shape, or got any more life in it, going to be any more reliable. And its not like the 80's, where a three year old bike, would be a major leap in technology and performance from bikes maybe only eight or ten years old! The state of the art, hasn't shifted hugely since about 1997 and the launch of the R1!

Older bikes, can give you a lot of biking value; especially lower tech ones, like the air cooled fours or twins, where lack of catalytic converters and carburettors instead of fuel injection means they are more mechanic freindly, whether DIY or paid, which means cheaper servicing and less hassle with emmissions and stuff.

Absolutely NO reason that an older bike couldn't serve you well for many years, and be as good and in many ways better than a newer one.

Lets just stick this idea into the melting pot; 2009 ER6, its not SO naked, a ponder point becouse you are worried about damaging expensive fairing panels..... well which would you rather have to fix or replace, either becouse of a drop or a real crash?

2007 ER6, with almost no bikes yet in the breakers yard and those that are, demanding high prices, OR a 1997 750 Zephyr, that's half the value to 'write off' as a total loss, and of which there's many more end of life examples being broken and bits on e-bay?

WIDEN those horizons and dont let pre-conception predjudices restrict your options.

As said, its winter; you haven't done any time in a tiddler: £500 you could get a ready to ride CB250 nighthawk; cheap as chips to insure, doesn't need restricting, nice & ecconomical, and crank up some nice low risk early-rider-miles, in teh crap weather, not worrying every time they salt the roads that you need to visit the pressure washer and rick coming home an popsicle!

Come May? Flog it on, get, I dont know, Zerphy 550 for maybe £900 in pretty stunning condition for that money..... cheap, fun, nice looking, and low risk if you crash it, as your first 'summer' bike.

When you are bored of that? Well, probably looking at another winter; what about a cheap GS500 for the wet-work? Different bike, different experience, and following spring? Oh, look, you only have a few months of restriction left, what about a Hornet? Get used to it before popping the restrictors out.

Its NOT a forever choice, and all is possible. We are only bouncing ideas and feeding your imagination so let it run riot!

As you progress, your ideas are BOUND to change as experience informs them, and random thoughts divert interest. You are just as likely to have a go on a Super-Motoard and get all enthusiastic about them; or a Dirt bike and suddenly have the notion to try off roading; of sit on a BMW GS and decide you'd really like an adventure sport... or a pure sports....

There's a veritable panopoly of bikes out there to sample and consider.

And we are in DREAM LAND... feeding the dreams, yeah go look at pics and specs, but its all DREAM LAND... so ENJOY the dreaming and keep your options open!
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[Spy]

Thanks Mike....you have a persuasive way with your words !

I can see the sense in what you are saying. I guess where I was coming from with wanting a newer bike was not so much for the 'tech' but wanting to ensure that when I get up in the morning, running late for work, the bike will just start and go without issue. In fact, that is just as important when you have finished work and just want to jump on the bike to get home.

If an older bike will be just as reliable then I am game
I know that with classic cars, reliability is not always there.

Saying that, the Kawasaki Versys seems like a good bike for commuting due to its riding position height and torquey engine. Also, the restrictor is in the throttle which means you still get the same power at lower revs. Any thoughts on that one ?

Roger, as far as being fobbed off, yes I feel that way now after 4 days of riding the 125cc and never having dropped it and improved no end without any scary moments or such like ! At the time, 1-2 days into the lessons, I was so de-moralised, verging on throwing in the towel, that I was willing to compromise. Too far down the restricted route now unless I pay for more training/bike hire days. I have my Mod1 tomorrow so I don't want to switch bikes now and fail.

As regards dropping bikes and fairing damage, I don't plan on dropping or crashing it but the general consensus seems to be that beginners will accidentally drop a bike at some point. If I never do great but who knows.

In any case, the Chief Instructor has agreed that I can ride their ER6 after my Mod1 test in order to do a big bike conversion and get a feel for it.

[Rogerborg]

Crikey, you haven't been hanging around. Best of luck with the mod 1.

I was trying to stay with your brief, but actually... I do agree with Mike.

Modern bikes are more likely to have ABS, and I'd like that, but you still have to look for it, and will pay for the privilege.

Other than that, you're buying a bit more refinement, and fuel injection.

You know how much time FI would save me in the mornings? About half a second, the time to flip a choke lever. Gear up, get on, choke on, start up, ride off, choke off ASAP.

All of my bikes (new to 16 years old, all carbs) start/started first push of the button every time, and there's no need (for the majority of us) to stand around pissing off the neighbours with revving or idling the engine to "warm it up" before setting off. FI will adjust the fuelling on the go, but there's no particular difference as far as the engine is concerned.

If you want a newer bike, then don't deprive yourself, but I've honestly yet to find anything that my GPZ500 won't do competently on a UK road. It's been pre-dropped a fair bit, so it's a case of whistle a happy tune and gaffa-and-go. You really don't notice the blemishes while you're riding, there's far too much fun to be had.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[Matt94]