Immobilisers on bikes?

[Polarbear]

As far as I know cars have had immobilisers for a good few years now and it's basically stopped modern car theft by scrotes/joyriders etc.

Now my Explorer is the first bike I have had that has an immobiliser built in that I am sure of, ie, it has a flashing immobiliser light. (my Goldwings were all american imports and they didn't have HISS fitted). I can't tell from what I have read in the manual whether the key has a chip or what, unlike my ford granny wagon that won't start if the correctly chipped key isn't used.

So why don't bike manufacturers make chipped systems as a general thing on all bikes rather than just top end? A new YBR125 is as much someones pride and joy as a VFR1200 is to someone else. Small bikes need protecting more than big bikes.

Electronics are as cheap as chip nowadays so why aren't our bikes thief proof without the key?

Wouldn't it stop scrotes nicking them if they knew there was no way of starting them?
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Triumph Trophy Launch Edition

[AlexW]

This assumes the scrotes know about it. It would take a few years, as it has with cars.

Obviously still get the organised crim's that will swap out the ecu etc for one bought off ebay.

[doggone]

Be aware it will tend to run the battery down especially since I guess you have always on lights too.
If not using it for two weeks or so, you should have a trickle charger on.

[Alpha-9]

Because it doesn't stop them picking the whole thing up and sticking it in a van to sort out later, at a guess
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Fzr-600 1999

[flyer]

Get a tracker instead. These guys do a motor bike version and I think theyre doing it on a one off payment now as well, which is pretty affordable. Not sure if they have it online yet, but I visited them last week about one, so deffo worth a call. They help recover heaps of stolen vehicles.

Most thieves wont expect to be looking for a tiny tracker on a bike and probably wouldnt recognise it even if they found it.
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Stand up paddle surfing wales Caravan decking wales

[flyer]

oops...and heres the link


https://www.planti-tracking.co.uk/index.html


and the motor bike specific section

https://www.i-tracking.co.uk/
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Stand up paddle surfing wales Caravan decking wales

[angryjonny]

[.Bishbash.]

[Polarbear]

I appreciate there are ways round it but we are really talking of professionals here.

I was thinking of the scrotes who nick 125's and the like. If they knew they couldn't start it for an evening of 'fun', would they even bother?
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Triumph Trophy Launch Edition

[Shinigami]

my 2003 hornet has HISS with chipped keys. Not really a top end bike. Plenty more probably do have as well? (i've not searched)
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Current: Honda City Fly CLR125 2003 Honda CB600F Hornet 2008 Yamaha FZ6 S2 + 1991 Kawasaki GPZ500
"Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the Comedian is the only thing that makes sense.

[.Chris.]

Probably cost issues, plus the fact it's not legally required (cars have been required by law to have an immobiliser since 1998 IIRC).

A bit like ABS really - top end bikes have it but most 125s don't. It might only cost the manufacturer £25 more to install it, but as these bikes are churned out by the million, if the manufacturer absorbs that cost, it means a lot less profit. Passing that cost on to the consumer might result in lost sales, particularly in the 125 market where price is a very important factor.
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Chris
1985 Kawasaki Z550F

[Polarbear]

[Marmalade]

[barrkel]

My SH300 has both HISS and ABS. Light on the dash only flashes for 24 hours, so I don't think it significantly drains the battery past that - it only needs to check the key when the lock is turned to ignition, so I can't think of anything that would need the power.
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Bikes: S1000R, SH350; Exes: Vity 125, PS125, YBR125, ER6f, VFR800, Brutale 920, CB600F, SH300x4
Best road ever ridden: www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2MhNxUEYtQ

[Walloper]

There will be a chip buried in the key.

A radio device in the ECU reads info on the chip.
If it corresponds with the info that the ECU is looking for it enables the power to go through the ECU.

Immobiliser systems need an ECU (or some other control box) it is an additional cost that people may not want to pay for.

Possibly if built in people would accept the initial cost. But on lower spec machines the cost may be too much of a % of total cost.

Most manufacturers look for ways to make there shit cheaper so trim everything possible. A few do the opposite and build in quality. Like Harley Davidson ( Aye Right.. )

An immobiliser system does not need battery power to function if there is no key in the ignition. It is only active whilst the ignition is on.

Alarm systems do use power to work properly.
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W-ireless A-rtificial L-ifeform L-imited to O-bservation P-eacekeeping and E-fficient R-epair

[AlexW]

Imoblisers use LED's for the constant flashing, if they even flash constantly anyway, Its so little power drain.

Peugeot Speedfights have them iirc? Also Pointy SV's I believe too?

Its a good idea, and I'm sure it will slowly catch on.

[Teflon-Mike]

Technology matching.

Secure key idea relies on something in the key being vital to make the engine run, yeah?

OK, to make engine run you need, spark, compression & fuel...

So what might be controlled by a key? Really only something electrical.

On a carburated bike; that really means the only thing that might be imobilised is the ignition.

On a simple single cylinder engine, you dont need to distribute sparks and the simplest and cheapest means of igniting them is with a self exited magneto.

Magnet passes coil once per rev, giving a 'pulse' to the coil, a trigger then breaks the feed to the coil at the peak of that pulse, when spark wanted, colapsing coil field creating spark.

On such a simple ignition system actually simpler to 'kill' the sparks by 'making' a circuit to short circuit the coil to earth, than it is to break the feed to the coil, especially if you have multiple kill switches, such as side stand cut-out, ignition key switch and handle-bar e-kill.

Hence snipping one wire or bridging one wire, would defeat the imobiliser, very easily; as if engine spins, it makes its own sparks.

So, onto imobiliser operation. Three technologies possible.

First embedding wiring into the key. make a simple copper plated printed wiring board with no components on it, but say twelve contact points along one edge, that 'some-how' plugs into the ignition switch with the metal leaf key.

Printed circuit board can connect or not connect contacts together, in I don't know, maybe 144 possible permutations,and you could pick possibly four 'live' contact points, to 'make' circuits between the corresponding contacts in the barrel, so that only the pre-printed combination 'made' the ignition circuit, or broke it, or made one broke another, and anything else would put battery live amps direct to earth in order to blow main fuse and dissable everything as an anti-hot wire measure.

Cheap, simple, and reletively low tech, and reasonably reliable. BUT not indefeatable, and with a few reliability issues.... PWB contacts wear out after a few hundred insertions, contacts get dirty, it would have a much lower reliability than conventional barel switch.

But does make the key 'critical' component to engine function to some degree.

Next, remote switching; using a relay to make or break circuits. Gets rid of contact issues, but puts a power drain on the imobiliser system that has to hold a relay open or closed, either when the bike is running, or when 'imobilised'.

Also needs 'something' to activate the relays; in cheap alarms, done by alarm control box; constantly powered and looking for a radio signal. Could also be done by a control box looking for an inert transponder via proximity sensor.

This is starting to add complexity, but significantly power drain. AND while the control box can be as sophisticated as you like as far as the 'signal' its using to set or unset the relays, million code radio signals or transponder profiles, changing randomised signals.... all can get very hi-tech.... your still ultimately relying on a couple of relays to make or break ONE circuit that could be by-passed with a paper-clip!

So we move onto the high-end electronic systems; on most modern cars we now have fully micro-processor controlled engine management, which is firing not just the spark plugs but electronic fuel injectors too.

This requires a certain amount of 'memory' in the comuputer based system, in order to store the program that tells the microprocessor what outputs to make for any inputs.

So now reletively easy to add a bit of code to that program, to look for an 'input' via external interface.... key, radio-fob, proximity transponder, key-pad, doesn't really matter..... and tell the ECU to do NOTHING unless it gets the right 'pass word'....

Much harder to crack, or by-pass, bridge or hot wire.

And on cars, can be almost all systems shut down..... I shall mention the Range-Rover P38.......

I have a Range-Rover Classic; and thanks to its 4; V8 I have had to fit after-market thatcham approved imobiliser, due to thefts of the things for Ram-Raiding! Mid 90's Land-Rover tackled this on the new model P38 with a fully integrated security system that linked alarm, imobiliser, ECU and door locks.... to the radio code key.... and if any-one wants abject lesson in the problems of such sophistication... go google "P38 wont start!" its a very good system for locking owners out of their own cars!

ANYWAY... possible, and IF the vehicle has the technology already 'on-board' by way of a more sophisticted 'engine management unit' controlling sparks and fuel..... yes, you can introduce lock-out codes to act as a fairly effective imobiliser, and can be done for fairly insignificant cost.

But, on a small bike, with a very simple fuel injection, if any at all, and possibly 'self exited' ignition system, with if any 'electronic' management, such as 'inert' CDi units..... well, its like sticking a big Chubb security lock on an internal door...... no point having fancy unpickable lock, if you can just boot the door down!

And ultimately, to detur a wheel-away or opportunist hot wire attempt, on a small bike, its probably not going to be that effective.

Idiot bike twockers wont take any notice of a blinking LED and will still have a go; so you still get a screw-driver in the lock and wires cut, even if they dont wheel the bike off.

Using the steering lock and a disc-lock is probably more useful..... fuck-em, LET them get the engine running, unless they can hold the front wheel up for a couple of miles, they aren't going to go further than one wheel turn, or round and round in a circle!

Could still lift it in the back of a van, or course, but we are talking opportunists with intent now..... but even a cheap cable lock round a lamp-post is 'something' against these low-lifes.

So how much real 'benefit' are 'imobilisers' that at the end of teh day are really little more than a complicated ignition switch?

And talking cars? How do they nick Range-Rovers and other high-end cars these days?

It ent like Gone in 60-seconds with lovable rogue Nick-Cage, getting programmed security kets through a bent store man at the Mercedes dealer! Nope. They break into the house and nick YOUR keys, or they simply block you in and Car-Jack you!

Aparently in London, favourite trick for nicking scooters is to wait for one to pull up at some traffic lights or a round about, and two hoodies sprint accross the road, one jumps the rider, knocking him off, other grabs the scooter!

Why bother trying to defeat locks or imobilisers, when you can just bump unsuspecting rider to the floor, providing get-away vehicle for you!

I think imobilisers do more to make people think thier bikes are 'safe' than they actually do make the bikes safe...... yes, its an extra layer of protection..... but?

If Lexmoto were to get the chinks to fit a Cyclone as OE fit to a CG copy..... costs £20 as an after market accessory....... would you be prepared to pay extra for it, or be more swayed by them offering you a 'free' Oxford HD chain & Pad-lock? And which would actually be better theft deterrent or prevention?
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[barrkel]

[J.M.]

One of my ideas is a key which has data on it, like a USB stick. The USB stick is read when the key is turned to the "on" position and on the stick is a 1024-2048bit cryptographic key.

This key is they used to decrypt the ECU.

Obvious work around though... swap the ECU for a pre-hacked (pre-decrypted) one and hotwire the bike as normal.
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2004 R1 & 2018 XSR900

[barrkel]

[J.M.]

[angryjonny]

That was possibly Tef's shortest ever post.

[Noxious89123]

My 2000 CBR600F was carbed and had H.I.S.S fitted. Never had any issue with it draining the battery or the like.
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'06 Honda CBR125RW-6 ~ '00 Honda CBR600F-Y ~ '07 Honda CBR600RR-7 ~ Bikeless
'53 Ford Ka 1.3 ~ '03 Vauxhall Astra SRi 1.8 ~ '52 Vauxhall Astra SRi 2.2 ~ '53 Vauxhall Astra GSi

[Walloper]

[Alpha-9]