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| daverave999 |
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daverave999
Trackday Trickster
Joined: 15 Nov 2012
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 Posted: 19:37 - 12 Dec 2012  Post subject: Which route to the full license? |
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Hi all, n00b here.
After a rather odd dream a month or so back, and much research I've decided I would absolutely love to get my bike license. I'm in no huge rush as I'm 32 and it's bastard freezing but now I've got the idea into my head I've got to just go with it.
I've read Tef's website extensively and while I can appreciate the value of getting a 125, I'm also bearing in mind the insurance weighting on learner legal machines and the fact that bikes are cheaper to buy in the winter. I was wondering if it's worthwhile doing DAS then buying something that's 200 to 400cc once I've passed?
Is this likely to save me money whilst still giving me a good grounding in the basics? I'm in no rush to get a 600 between my legs  but if I'm only going to have a 125 for a few months is it worth it?
Ta for your thoughts! |
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| iMark |
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iMark
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| Matt B |
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Matt B
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| Fem1 |
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Fem1
Scooby Slapper
Joined: 14 Sep 2012
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Posted: 19:53 - 12 Dec 2012  Post subject: |
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I bought a 125cc thinking that i would keep it for couple of years as being new to riding this would give me plenty of practice.
Six months later i decided that i loved biking so started DAS lessons i sold my bike and now have a 600 diversion waiting in the garage for when i pass my tests which are in January as long as the weather allows.
Have you done CBT?....If you have take a couple of lessons first it might help you decide  |
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| barrkel |
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barrkel
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Joined: 30 Jul 2012
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| Posted: 20:07 - 12 Dec 2012 Post subject: Re: Which route to the full license? |
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| daverave999 wrote: | I've read Tef's website extensively and while I can appreciate the value of getting a 125, I'm also bearing in mind the insurance weighting on learner legal machines and the fact that bikes are cheaper to buy in the winter. |
Third party only insurance (so pure risk of accident, from insurer's perspective) for 125 machines is lower than for most big bikes. Only with quite specific bikes will the savings from insurance be significant, IMO.
Cheapest bike for me to insure, last time I checked, was a 250cc Vespa; premium half the cost of a Hornet, a typical 600cc commuter with respectable but predictable power.
You don't say where you live. If you're thinking of getting a bike to commute through urban areas, I think you'd be better off sticking with 125 for a while; lighter smaller bikes are better in the city in any case, it's primarily where I ride my SH300. But if you're doing most of your riding on the open road, IMO you'd be better off with something with at least 30hp, i.e. able to reach the speed limit going uphill. Something 60, 70hp like ER6, SV650, XJ6 etc. would have more than enough power (enough to kill you if you're stupid), they are not slow bikes when obeying the speed limits.
Going very quickly to a full power bike after DAS will mean you'll won't properly experience the big jump in power though. Bit of a shame to miss out on that. But definitely go with DAS, no need being restricted for two years.
____________________
Bikes: S1000R, SH350; Exes: Vity 125, PS125, YBR125, ER6f, VFR800, Brutale 920, CB600F, SH300x4
Best road ever ridden: www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2MhNxUEYtQ |
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010
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| Posted: 20:35 - 12 Dec 2012 Post subject: Re: Which route to the full license? |
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| daverave999 wrote: | but if I'm only going to have a 125 for a few months is it worth it? |
Yes... and some.
Test Pass rates for usually untrained, self tought 125'ers with a bit of experience are about the same as those for DAS candidates, usually intensively trained.
As far as passing tests goes, then, time on a tiddler is worth about as much as a DAS course.
BUT, so much more in terms of actually learning to ride a bike, as well as merely meet DSA test requirements for following road etiquete.
NOW, take advice of tiddling away a few months, before testing under DAS.
DAS is expensive, and ponder recent thread from mate of irate DAS cancelee agrieved that they have to pay yet another set of DAS fees for rescheduled test apointment.
Tiddling gives you good chance to learn cheaply, and learn well.
This then significantly increases your first time pass chances, and minimises potential DAS costs when you come to do it.
Its win-win, as far as I see it.
And certainly a good way to get that basic grounding and apreciation of biking, and some of the down sides, before you commit to the bigger money, and gives you a much better apreciation of bigger bikes and hence pleasure from them, from experience gained on a tiddler.
Time on tiddler is rarely wasted.
Even just a few months.
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| Matt B |
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Matt B
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| AyrshireBiker |
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AyrshireBiker
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Joined: 18 Nov 2012
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| barrkel |
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barrkel
World Chat Champion
Joined: 30 Jul 2012
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| Posted: 21:22 - 12 Dec 2012 Post subject: Re: Which route to the full license? |
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| Matt B wrote: | | Teflon-Mike wrote: | Time on tiddler is rarely wasted |
Couldn't disagree more, and that's experience not opinion talking. |
Why is insurance for 125s cheaper then? Insurers have less than sentimental reasons for charging more for more power.
I think 250s should probably be learner legal, and may even be safer on the open roads. But the accidents you have on a 600+ will be worse IMO.
And for learning while riding in dense urban environment like London, I think a 125cc scooter is much better for learning riding sense, growing eyes on the back of your head, etc., than a geared bike.
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Bikes: S1000R, SH350; Exes: Vity 125, PS125, YBR125, ER6f, VFR800, Brutale 920, CB600F, SH300x4
Best road ever ridden: www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2MhNxUEYtQ |
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| esullivan |
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esullivan
Could Be A Chat Bot
Joined: 06 Mar 2012
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| Posted: 21:25 - 12 Dec 2012 Post subject: Re: Which route to the full license? |
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| Matt B wrote: | | Teflon-Mike wrote: | Time on tiddler is rarely wasted |
Couldn't disagree more, and that's experience not opinion talking. |
(Gets popcorn.)
This is a perennial debate, but there is no right answer. For me -- a low-confidence, late-starter -- I needed the months on the tiddler to get truly comfortable on a motorcycle. And I needed to be comfortable and confident to pass my test. But I also would rather stick rusty nails in my eye than go back to being target practice for White Van Man.
If you have any experience on a motorbike (i.e., a Born Again Biker or rode dirt bikes as a teenager) and/or are just naturally confident at physical skills, then just do the DAS.
If you're a slow learner or motorcycling is completely new to you, I'd do the CBT, buy a second-hand 125 (a Honda Varadero could be mistaken for a big bike) and try it for a while, before you spend big money on a DAS.
____________________
Current: '14 VFR800X Test passed 31/10/12.
Previous: '12 NC700S, '11 CBF 125, '04 SH 125. |
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| SierraWhisky |
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SierraWhisky
Derestricted Danger
Joined: 26 Nov 2012
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| Posted: 22:42 - 12 Dec 2012 Post subject: |
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I opted to go cbt and buy a 125 with the intention of completing DAS feb/March time. I chose this route as I had never ridden a bike before, and wanted the chance to gain a bit of experience before stepping up to the big bikes. My 125 is cheap to insure, extremely economic to run and is light and agile enough to nip around a city. Personally I've never had an issue with other road users; I don't think my bikes lack of power or speed makes much of a difference in the urban environmen.
But..... I've fallen in love with riding, and a big part of me wishes I'd gone straight for my DAS. I like to think that I would have passed, but who knows?! What I do know is that when I come to doing the DAS I'll be more confident in my own abilities. Personally I don't agree with the learning bad habits argument for the amount of time between doing my cbt and das. Before I did my blue light course I had driven by cars for 4 years and managed to pass just fine!
Come the weather changing I'll be getting my full license and a bigger bike ready for the sun! 
SW
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Suzuki GS 125 ESM (1996)
Complete and utter novice.... but I will get the hang of this! |
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| Matt B |
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Matt B
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| Posted: 07:18 - 13 Dec 2012 Post subject: Re: Which route to the full license? |
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| esullivan wrote: | I needed the months on the tiddler to get truly comfortable on a motorcycle. And I needed to be comfortable and confident to pass my test. But I also would rather stick rusty nails in my eye than go back to being target practice for White Van Man. |
A good instructor would have given you that confidence. Intensive DAS courses were designed to take a student with no experience through to a full motorcycle licence, and it works.
| barrkel wrote: | Why is insurance for 125s cheaper then? |
Because the bikes are worth less and therefore cheaper to replace and repair...
In general 125s have skinny tyres, cheap brakes, cheap suspension, no weight, a smaller profile and have been ridden by Alpha9
So if the OP wants to ride a slow, poor handling, unstable bike that won't be seen by the cagers then he should get a 125, and good luck to him.
DAS is not bad value. For about £600ish you get bike hire, loan of gear, CBT and all test fees, 5 or 6 days of instruction and most good schools have a pass rate of 85% and above. Compare this with a car that will average out at about £1000 to get to test and where pass rates are below 50%.
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stinkwheel: He had an animated .gif of a cat performing fellatio. It's not socially acceptable. It can have real life adverse effects on other people. |
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| esullivan |
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esullivan
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| Posted: 09:35 - 13 Dec 2012 Post subject: Re: Which route to the full license? |
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| Matt B wrote: | | esullivan wrote: | I needed the months on the tiddler to get truly comfortable on a motorcycle. And I needed to be comfortable and confident to pass my test. But I also would rather stick rusty nails in my eye than go back to being target practice for White Van Man. |
A good instructor would have given you that confidence. Intensive DAS courses were designed to take a student with no experience through to a full motorcycle licence, and it works. |
Again, there's no right answer to this debate, although both sides always insist there is. DAS courses work for some, maybe most, people, but it didn't work for me. It might not work for the OP. I realise people have a hard time accepting this, but it's still true.
I had pretty good instructors when I went on the BMW course near Swansea (including two bike cops, one the head of Bikesafe in Wales) at the end of last February. At the end of the week, I was certainly competent, but not confident, still feeling like I was hanging on for dear life at times, but looking outwardly like I knew what I was doing. If I hadn't tapped my foot down on the u-turn on mod 1, who knows, I probably would have passed. (The instructors certainly thought I was at the higher end of the range they see pass).
I'm actually glad I didn't. I really didn't know what I was doing. I'm glad my first "off" was at 10mph going around a corner, on a bike I could easily pick up myself, than at 40mph in a 250kg chunk of metal. I would have bought a completely different bike if I hadn't spent several months actually commuting in London, instead of a week riding around Swansea. People treat you like shit when riding with L plates, but it's really important to learn how to handle that, because people sometimes cut you up, tailgate or try to occupy your space in a big bike too.
I'm also very glad I did the DAS course, and did another two-day one to retake my tests in October. I have had excellent instruction from more than a half dozen, very different people, so I am better for it. So for me, a combination of a DAS course, then a few months of my own, capped with a short get-familiar-again DAS course at the end, was ideal.
____________________
Current: '14 VFR800X Test passed 31/10/12.
Previous: '12 NC700S, '11 CBF 125, '04 SH 125. |
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
nimbA
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Posted: 09:43 - 13 Dec 2012  Post subject: |
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It's a very personal decision.
First thing is to do a CBT to see if your dream lied to you. Mine keep telling me that I'm going to be doing... things... with Alyson Hannigan and Felicia Day. Also, stuff.
125s are cheap to run and easy to work on (if you get a single cylinder naked). Tef's right that they are a good learning tool, but that's because they're hard to ride on modern UK roads. You need to plan ahead more, show them the whip, and negotiate your way through traffic.
I loved my 125, but then you'll love your first bike whatever it is.
The step up each time is also a fun experience. Bikes are easy to sell and trade, and don't kid yourself that you'll get your ideal bike right away and then keep it for years. Start small, trade up, get lots of grins.
But all that said, you'll enjoy a bigger bike more, and there's no good reason to delay that pleasure if you don't want to.
And bearing in mind that you'll be doing your training and tests on a 595cc+ 40kW bike, I doubt you'll be happier stepping back down to anything smaller afterwards.
Go and find out for yourself.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| daverave999 |
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daverave999
Trackday Trickster
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| barrkel |
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barrkel
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 13:17 - 13 Dec 2012 Post subject: Re: Which route to the full license? |
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| barrkel wrote: | [125 insurance is] still cheaper |
Eh, it entirely depends on the situation. Bike, location, age, wind direction.
I'm TPO and my GPZ500 was a £0 cost swap from my 125 with half the speed and a quarter of the power.
It may even have been less, but you might as well try and get a drink out of a Jock as money back from an insurer.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| trevor saxe-coburg-gotha |
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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| daverave999 |
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daverave999
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| Posted: 19:49 - 18 Dec 2012 Post subject: |
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Well I've just come back from my free tester hour and really enjoyed it.
Never having been on a motorbike before I wasn't quite as amazing as I expected.  I felt pretty cramped on the Suzuki GN125 but for a first go it did the job. Is throttle lag usual on bikes, or just this model or just this bike?
Certainly think I'm going to go ahead with learning. Given the law changes and my vast inside leg measurement I think DAS will be the way I go. Once I've got my full license I can get something a bit smaller, say 250 to 400. I reserve the right to change my mind once I've been on a 600 though.  |
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| mike_wall15 |
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mike_wall15
Two Stroke Sniffer
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Posted: 22:03 - 18 Dec 2012  Post subject: |
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Money and free time needs to come into this...
I took a CBT, bought a 125, practiced, passed with a restricted license.
Sold the 125 for profit (they keep their value amasingly well!)
Bought a 600, restricted it myself, passed tests on that...
Sold the restrictor for profit...
So in the 5 months it took, got loads of experience, full license, wasted about 1 day's holiday from work, and only really ended up paying for the 1 set of motorbike tests (2nd lot paid for by profit!)
So that's the cheap method view put across hopefully
Mike |
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| Dave-the-rave |
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Dave-the-rave
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 13 years, 10 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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