Engine knocking...

[andym]

I'm still not having much luck with the zxr engine, so figured I'd get some advice from you helpful bunch

I done a little video (exhaust blowing from both ends of the can, oil dripping from the pressure sensor and throttle sticking):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21SyHo_Fq8E

I've checked the clearances, set the timing, checked the CCT (I don't know if there should be ANY movement in the cam chain, but I can push it down about 1 maybe 2mm).

I don't really want to drop the engine out as if I start to strip it, it will be left to the elements as I don't have anywhere indoors to work on it (unless I set up the shell of the tent... which is f**ked anyway), I've watched some videos on youtube about rod knock and the sound is very similar, which I know would be easy enough to check by dropping the sump and checking from there.

Anyway, does anyone have any better suggestions? Also if I did need to strip the whole engine down, would I get away with just buying a head gasket and using instant gasket on the rest, or would it be just as easy to buy the whole set?

Also I know that everything that is taken apart on the engine should be kept in order etc, but I've only ever stripped a 50cc (4 stroke) engine, any advice on my first big engine strip (if needed)

[devojunior]

if you have nowhere to work other than outside id try find somewhere i would not fancy an engine rebuild in this weather,

get lots off tubs big and small and some labels and take pictures

what i often do if stripping an engine for first time is for example id start at top end and strip all that the loosely fit it all back on so im sure i know where to put everything and i do this a few times throughout the rebuild.

as for gaskets id get a full propper set not instant silicone as it only takes a tiny drop to block an oil jet and youve wasted alot of your time and money fix it once properly not twice if that makes sense also if you want alot of response on here get some pics or most wont bother helping there all a bunch of gays like that just copy and poaste some from google or something lol.

oh and good luck

[Stonefly]

The bottom end sounds fine to me andy - that clatter sounds more like top end to me......plus a blowing exhaust wont be helping matters.
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Current......Kawasaki ZZR1200 C2H and Kawasaki ZZR600 E7
Previous....Yamaha FS1E, Honda SS50, Suzuki AP50, BSA Bantam D14, Honda CD175, Honda CB250N, Kawasaki Z250A3, Yamaha RD250E, Kawasaki Z400, Kawasaki Z500, Kawasaki GPz550, Honda NTV600, Kawasaki GT750, Kawasaki Z1000R, Kawasaki GPX250

[Walloper]

[mentalboy]

In the vid it looked a bit reluctant to pick up revs, is this the case or were you just trying to avoid raking the knackers off it?
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[andym]

devojunior, I don't mind the taking the engine out in this weather, it's just I like to work at my own pace, but would be forced to work a bit quicker. I guess some of the parts I would be able to bring in the house, but most would need to sit on the drive, and with the scrap collectors around here, even a stray screw is an invitation to take anything metal.

Stonefly, I had planned on starting the bike with the top off the engine to see if it was the chain that was somehow still jumping... but the battery died soon after that video and even though it would turn over, it just wouldn't start. I know it's not the same, but before I put the camshafts back in and stuff I tried turning the engine over by hand and it felt smooth enough. Also I need to repack the exhaust.

Walloper, I guess, a neighbour said it sounded like the big ends had gone, and searching on youtube came back with the rod knock thing. I'll have a bash at hacking up the oil filter and see if I find anything in there, thanks for the advice. Also I used to be a landscaper and had the joyous task of planting shrubs when it was -17 (3 of us with spades, pinch bars and picks and after an hour we had a hole big enough to plant 1 bit of ivy), at least here I have the luxury of coming indoors to warm up a bit

mentalboy, it will pick up the revs alright (will go to about 6k with just the choke), but I don't want to put any real strain on the engine until I find where the problem is.

I've got the GPz back together and running again, so this isn't as urgent any more (I did want to have it running for Sunday but meh), I'll try the screwdriver on the engine and try to pinpoint exactly where the noise is coming from.

Thanks for the advice

[andym]

Just thought I would post a quick update here, and also looking for advice on shims etc.

I decided to check the clearances again today, and I don't understand what is going on... I guess I didn't check them properly last time. So would these values cause the knocking?

engine set up the following way (TDC in bold, reversed when engine turned over again):

EX
O O O O O O O O
O O O O O O O O
IN

The clearances I got (from left to right etc, and I believe the guage is inches, although it doesn't say on there anywhere so I could be wrong)

EX
1 - .006
2 - .006
3 - .007
4 - .008
5 - .008
6 - .012
7 - .008
8 - .005

IN
1 - .005
2 - .000 (guage went down to .0015 and couldn't get that in)
3 - .006
4 - .006
5 - .000 (as above)
6 - .008
7 - .006
8 - .007

I know I am probably wrong, but with the values being all over the place, would that not cause a rattle rather than knock?

Also I'm unsure how to read the chart in the workshop manual, I've never had to deal with shims, how do they work (I'm guessing they lift the valve covers up or lower them), what would I need.... help please

[mentalboy]

Andy,
bit of a daft question but you didn't take those measurements all in one go, without rotating crank so each valve was shut when it supposed to be? That would certainly explain the two tight readings - but there would probably be a few more.

Shims are a proper bastard to do - easy to change but a sod to get right, or at least in my experience. Engine must be cold to take readings.
The shims are usually under a 'bucket' - when you look at the cam followers you'll see they contact with a shiny circular surface which is basically the bottom of the upturned bucket. When the camshaft is taken off (whoever did away with adjustable tappets!!!) then you can lift the bucket out - a small led type torch with the magnetic face is ideal for this - and the shim will either stay in the bottom of the bucket or on the end of the valve stem. Oil surface tension usually holds them in the bottom of the bucket.

You'll need a notepad and pen, micrometer, torque wrench, Einstein's brain ( a calculator will suffice) and the patience of a saint!

Take readings with each valve shut - I can give you the order for a zx900 ninja but you'll probably find it and the acceptable clearances on the net.
Then note the difference between each clearance and what it should be - use the middle value of the acceptable clearance.
Remove bucket and measure shim (if you're lucky it will have it's size marked on it but be aware that they may still be worn).

Take the size of shim and the value that you got earlier. For tight clearance you'll need a smaller shim, for loose you'll need to increase shim size.

I've just spotted that my haynes manual has a very natty ready reckoner to get the right size, probably the same if you get one for your model.

How are we doing so far?
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[mentalboy]

Sorry I've just given you the method with a Fireblade. Kwaks are usually easier because the follower should be able to be moved to one side and the shim is on the top of the bucket and accessible when follower is moved out of way.
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[andym]

I've took the readings as recommended in the manual, TDC on cylinder 1 then measure the clearance on the marked cams, then turned the engine over again so that cylinder 4 was at TDC (see my bold and not bold O's for the order according to the manual)

I've just popped all the buckets out (and placed in a tray in order), at least now I know what the shims look like, from what I've seen they should have numbers like 185 or 1.85 (mm), but looking at some of these shims (still keeping them in order), they have a 5 at one edge and 3 at the other... I'll have a look at the chart in the manual.

I have a telescopic magnet thing that has more than earned its £1 I paid for it, even if the telescopic part broke on the first day. I'll need to try borrowing a micrometer, still never used a torque wrench... the rest I should be able to figure out

[mentalboy]

Micrometer is a must really for measuring those thicknesses.
Were the shims under or on buckets?
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[andym]

Yes they were... at least the chart finally made sense when I seen the numbers.

I checked them all against my clearances and every single 1 had to be changed.... then I remembered my feeler gauge is in inches, so after converting all the readings over and looking over the chart again I only need 8 (2 x 20, 2 x 35, 2 x 45, 1 x 50 and 1 x 60)... or 7 if I switch 1 over.

Looks like the micrometer won't be needed after all

[mentalboy]

Sometimes pays to buy shims in an assorted box, then you've always got some handy - hopefully in the right sizes!
Just make sure your originals are still the size they say they are - hence the micrometer, remember we're talking about tiny measurements here - or just reading off the chart will give you a big headache!
Then when you've done label up the sizes of the originals that don't go back and stick them somewhere handy for next time.
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[andym]

I just need to find somewhere that sells the shims in various sizes now lol.

Thanks for the advice though

[mentalboy]

Wemoto is always good as a first port of call.
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[Walloper]

[andym]

Haven't opened the oil filter... yet.

Trying all other options first, the engine seems smooth enough to turn over when the camshafts are out, but then I don't think I would actually feel anything turning it over about 10rpm as opposed to the 1000-1500 rpm the bike will do itself.

I don't know what the tolerances are with the shims (a couple are .05 over and with swapping 2 will be .15 over), but I noticed the 2 tight valves had 55 shims in (or 255, or 2.55 as shown elsewhere), so I know it's counterproductive but I'm going to waste an hour or so swapping them round with smaller shims (40, 240 or 240) and see if that makes any difference to the noise.

I know it's just a waste of time at the end of the day, but if there is any improvement in the noise from the engine then I know I'm on the right track... that and I have nothing better to do with my time.

[andym]

Just wanted to post a quick update here.

I got the bike back together this morning, started it... and the knocking is still there. I decided to have a listen down a ratchet extension pole to try pinpointing the exact location.... the right side of the engine sounded a little rattly top and bottom, but nothing major (says me not knowing what I'm doing).

At the left of the engine though as soon as I touched the extension to the engine (bottom) and put my ear against it, the knock could be felt rather than heard.... and not just a rattle either, at the top of the engine it was still there, but not as bad.

Maybe I'll try hacking up the oil filter now and see what that tells me (if anything)

[andym]

[mentalboy]

I have never used the 'chop up oil filter to see what's in it' method, by it's very nature you will get some material that looks iffy in there.
I've always found it sufficient to drain off oil and let it stand, then remove most of oil taking care not to disturb the bottom.

Depending upon how grim the damage is you'll either see the lumps falling out of the drain plug when emptying oil or if the damage is not quite so bad you'll find the muck in the bottom of the drain off can or the sump.

I would never suggest doing the shims if I thought the engine was FUBAR, however badly adjusted valves will make heck of a racket and it is always simpler checking clearances (which is after all part of a basic maintenance schedule) than stripping down an engine because it doesn't sound right.

Re - The noise you are getting low down, is it on the clutch side? As there are various odds and sods in there that can rattle away but wouldn't neccessitate stripping the engine down.
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[Walloper]

[Walloper]

[mysterious_rider]

£10 filter. What the hell I've only ever seen filters for about £3.

I'd be tempted to scrap the engine and buy a second hand one.
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[Walloper]

[P.]

I wanna know what mug is paying £10 for a litre of oil

£2.99 for 2 litres. Change every 1k. fucking cheap brah.