"number6" v DVLA

[ocatoro]

Does anyone actually know this guys name? or a case ref?

He lost at appeal which should mean that from now on, the common motorist can bend over and take a fat one up the chocolate highway.

but I don't think it would hold when challenged.

Any info out there?
____________________
CBT - 17/09/12 * Theory - 23/10/12 * Mod1 - 05/03/13 * Mod2 - 25/03/13 * BOSH!
Current - None but shed project H100 (first bike )
Past - ER5, '93 ZZR600, '92 CB400 SF, ZZR600 (again), yellow Monster 620, Blackbird - black Monster 620ie - '96 ZZR600

[Rogerborg]

You mean this thread?

Reading...

Errr...

Guys... if that thread is legit, then there's now a Crown Court precedent that says... wait for it... that posting a change of keeper notification to the DVLA is not sufficient to discharge the obligation to "deliver" it to the Secretary of State.

[since] Section 22 of the Road Vehicles ... Act makes no mention of "service by post" then Section 7 [of the Interpretations Act] did not apply.

You're reading that right.

He looked at the exact wording of the laws, and, well, he's not actually wrong.

So it doesn't matter if you posted it or not, it doesn't matter if you have witnesses or proof of posting. If it's not "delivered" - actually arrives, or is handed over to the Secretary of State (or presumably his minions, although that's not what RV(RL)R 2002 says) - then tough luck, chummy, you didn't do it.

That's the case law now.

In England and Wales.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[Marmalade]

I don't suppose you have an address for the secretary of state do you?
I've a few bikes for sale and wouldn't want to do anything wrong and end up in court.
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Nobby the Bastard: How yo tell the difference between the actual japanese and her just screaming because she's had live fish stuck up her arse? [url=https://www.nicks-shop.co.uk/bcf-goodies-15-c.aspGet BCF stickers and things here[/url] Reflective helmet stickers - Legal requirement in france - Clicky

[ocatoro]

yet nobody anywhere has any reference to this case law.

it would not shock me if it was a dvla troll putting it there to discourage folk from taking up their cases. the template letters from that forum must have cost the dvla a fortune over the years.


even if it is legitimate and has set precedent, it could be overturned in a number of ways, setting a new precedent. the judgement was made on the evidence put before it.. which seems to have been quite limited due to a presumption of victory.

ie. only section 22 of RV(RL)R 2002 was used... where it says "deliver". section 23 uses "notify", also with reference to change of keeper documents on or after 1997. this alone could show that the regulations were not written as a black and white "hand deliver or else" iron fist.

i don't believe any case law was quoted to support the use of the interpretations act when an item which doesn't have to be posted but is, doesn't arrive with the claimant.

justice morgan upheld in calladine - smith v saveorder ltd, by way of R v County of London Quarter Sessions Appeals Committee ex parte Rossi, that
"16. It seems to me that in those circumstances it is not sufficient for the Claimant simply to prove non-receipt in order to avoid the deeming provisions of Section 7. In my judgment, he must prove failure by the Defendant to comply with the requirements of properly addressing, prepaying and sending by post. This the Claimant cannot do and indeed on his own evidence does not seek to do."

the dvla's own paper work states "return" to.. and their postal address... adding "return" to our list of "other expressions" with "deliver" and "notify" as in the rv (r&l) r 2002.

also, if one were able to get in writing from the secretary of state for transport patrick mcloughlin, that he would not meet in person to receive a v5c document, and instructed one to "post" the document to the dvla... then there is no way on earth any court could uphold that rv (r&l) r 2002 must be taken in black and white context with zero scope for interpretation. and the precedent would be rubbished and a new one set.
____________________
CBT - 17/09/12 * Theory - 23/10/12 * Mod1 - 05/03/13 * Mod2 - 25/03/13 * BOSH!
Current - None but shed project H100 (first bike )
Past - ER5, '93 ZZR600, '92 CB400 SF, ZZR600 (again), yellow Monster 620, Blackbird - black Monster 620ie - '96 ZZR600

[Rogerborg]

Thus the careful caveat "if that thread is legit".

I'm trying to view the court listing letter here but have insufficient posts.

A www.thelawpages.com search doesn't turn up anything from Worcester Crown Court on that date.

It does feel legit to me, and I can see how some judge having a bad jaaaaag day could come to that strict interpretation, no matter how breathtakingly unfair it is. Bad times (for you Englanders) if so.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[ocatoro]

[ocatoro]

most basic court document i've ever seen. i smell a rat
____________________
CBT - 17/09/12 * Theory - 23/10/12 * Mod1 - 05/03/13 * Mod2 - 25/03/13 * BOSH!
Current - None but shed project H100 (first bike )
Past - ER5, '93 ZZR600, '92 CB400 SF, ZZR600 (again), yellow Monster 620, Blackbird - black Monster 620ie - '96 ZZR600

[ocatoro]

actually rogerborg...

read his comments again... he said "appeal dismissed"..

i think this means the court didn't hear the case, or at least heard it, but didn't enter a judgement. in which case there's still no case law.
____________________
CBT - 17/09/12 * Theory - 23/10/12 * Mod1 - 05/03/13 * Mod2 - 25/03/13 * BOSH!
Current - None but shed project H100 (first bike )
Past - ER5, '93 ZZR600, '92 CB400 SF, ZZR600 (again), yellow Monster 620, Blackbird - black Monster 620ie - '96 ZZR600

[sickpup]

[Rogerborg]

To be crystal clear, I'm not agreeing with the (apparent) verdict. It's unjust and unreasonable and I think it's a piss poor piece of interpretation and likely a case of "sod off, you snotty litigant in person, wasting my time like you've got some right to access my court system".

But if it's genuine then we ... well, you ... have to deal with it as it is, not as it should have been.

octaro, that's a link to the same image, we still can't view it. You'll need to make a copy.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[ocatoro]

[ocatoro]

[Pie-Roe]

Silly guy thought he could swing the hammer of the law without supporting it with muscles of reasoning and argument. Just because you are right doesn't mean you shouldn't have all the information ready to counter any argument. When I did it 3 years ago, I made sure I had as much evidence as possible, Sickpup's stuff basically made the case from supporting evidence showing I knew how the DVLA operated. If I lost and then was given an appeal, I'd have got the DVLA to give to me in writing that the only way they support notifications is by post, and then use the FOI requests that detail how the mail is handled. The one I particularly like is where it states they have no system to track mail internally.


As well, on a forum like that I feel that people aren't united as much, and have less of a personal interest. A lot of bar room law bull on that forum in other threads. I doubt the consumer action group meet up for reading outrageous new case law and to have socials.
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[J.M.]

[ocatoro]

ah great, thanks
____________________
CBT - 17/09/12 * Theory - 23/10/12 * Mod1 - 05/03/13 * Mod2 - 25/03/13 * BOSH!
Current - None but shed project H100 (first bike )
Past - ER5, '93 ZZR600, '92 CB400 SF, ZZR600 (again), yellow Monster 620, Blackbird - black Monster 620ie - '96 ZZR600