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M.C
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PostPosted: 12:18 - 19 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. DaveJPS wrote:

tl;dr he gets rich off the referral bonus(es)?
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 13:36 - 19 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
tl;dr he gets rich off the referral bonus(es)?


Also, nothing to do with Bitcoin.
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 11:14 - 21 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Dr. DaveJPS wrote:

tl;dr he gets rich off the referral bonus(es)?


No different to the Facebook 'tipsters' with their little referral links.
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asta1
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PostPosted: 15:56 - 21 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:
asta1 wrote:


Show me where he says they aren't banning legal use? I see much prevarification and very little firm commitment either way. Also depends on what you define as legal 'use'.

Seems, as you say, that exchanges will remain open, so you can use a local currency to buy crypto still, but it seems very clear indeed (assuming what he says is in fact what he means and... politician) that using crypto-coins as a currency, as a token of exchange for goods and services within India will be banned.

So, they're allowing crypto speculation (you can buy and sell the coins for the local currency), but you can't then use the coins as currency. That is a legal use for crypto certainly, but it isn't the main use for a 'currency', if of course you view crypto coins as such.


You're mistaking being legal tender with being legal to use as a currency.
Crypto are not legal tender in the UK, we can still use them as currency. In fact, the only place they are legal tender is Japan.

India have no plans to make crypto illegal. The article I pointed you to explains that the payments system also bans gold. It's not illegal to use or trade gold in India.

Let's just leave it at that, as you think they are banning and I don't.
If they do indeed ban crypto outright, you will be right. If they dont then I am. Your constant reliance on a very small and ambiguous sentence is draining my will to explore this any further.


So, a couple of months ago there was some discussion on a statement from, I think, some Indan finance chap stating that they were going to aggressively regulate the use of crypto in India.

What's the progress thus far?

Well, as discussed in the link - https://www.ft.com/content/c1bcfcae-42fe-11e8-803a-295c97e6fd0b?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#link_time=1524137378 (WARNING, it's FT, so whilst it seems free to access for me, you may get paywalled), the high points seem to be:

Complete seperation of the banking sector from crypto. Apparently financial institutions have 90 days to remove all services from crypto exchanges and other businesses trading in the coins. Effectively what this means is that you can no longer use the local currency to buy crypto, and also, you can no longer 'cash out' into Rupees at all. The only option for getting rupees into say BTC would be to convert rupees into USD, buy BTC abroad, store them locally, then use an international bank account to sell your coins back for, say USD, then convert the USD into Rupees. Money laundering regs would also limit this pathway to USD250,000/person/year. Quite a blow to crypto as a speculative asset or a store of wealth or in fact a currency in the short term as businesses would need to trust in the long term prospects much more now.

crypto to crypto ransactions have not, however, been affected.

Use of crypto as a currency has not been regulated directly yet, but the reduced accessibility is likely to make that less desirable at the current time (would you trade goods and services for a token which has no direct route of conversion back to the currency your bills are paid in?)

I would think defining a 'value' for the coins is now a bit more difficult. You can no longer say that one BTC is 'worth' X rupees, because it's purchasing power in rupees is now zero (you can't buy rupees with crypto). As such, the coins will need to be valued against say USD, and that value converted to rupees. As such, BTC prices are now dependent on the volatility of both the crypto currency and the international conversion currency, a slight barrier to any 'real' use at scale by businesses instead of individuals.

So, was I right in my previous statements based on the original quote? Um, no, not really. The things I thought they'd regulate they didn't, and the things I thought they wouldn't regulate, they did.

Still, interesting times ahead and I'm curious to see what else they come up with!
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Ste
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PostPosted: 16:18 - 21 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Effectively what this means is that you can no longer use the local currency to buy crypto"

No it doesn't. All it means is Indian exchanges won't be able to accept card payments. People will still be able to trade using sites like localbitcoins.com and similar with the buyer making payment by bank transfer.

Exchanges and financial institutions have to follow KYC regulations, stopping exchanges operating helps make buying bitcoins more anonymous with less opportunity for their government to want information about who's buying bitcoins.

FT.com is paywalled. "some discussion on a statement from, I think, some Indan finance chap" is a pretty vague description. Laughing
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asta1
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PostPosted: 16:55 - 21 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
"Effectively what this means is that you can no longer use the local currency to buy crypto"

No it doesn't. All it means is Indian exchanges won't be able to accept card payments. People will still be able to trade using sites like localbitcoins.com and similar with the buyer making payment by bank transfer.

Exchanges and financial institutions have to follow KYC regulations, stopping exchanges operating helps make buying bitcoins more anonymous with less opportunity for their government to want information about who's buying bitcoins.

FT.com is paywalled. "some discussion on a statement from, I think, some Indan finance chap" is a pretty vague description. Laughing


Try this one instead? https://news.bitcoin.com/coindcx-launches-indian-crypto-to-crypto-exchange-amid-regulations/

Not sure on the bank transfer thing. I'm no expert, but it sounds as if it's a pretty hard ruling. I understand that banks are effectively 'banned' from dealing with exchanges at all, by any method, so using fiat currency to buy crypto in any way is now extremely difficult if not completely illegal.

Oh, and the finance chap is Finance Minister Arun Jaitley.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 17:16 - 21 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banks can't deal with exchanges but that doesn't stop person 1 making a bank transfer to person 2 in exchange for some bitcoins.

Good luck with banning that. Laughing

Banks being banned from dealing with crypto exchanges doesn't mean that using fiat currency to buy crypto in any way is extremely difficult or completely illegal.

It's not going to make any difference to people wanting to use coins for nefarious purposes.
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asta1
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PostPosted: 17:24 - 21 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
Banks can't deal with exchanges but that doesn't stop person 1 making a bank transfer to person 2 in exchange for some bitcoins.

Good luck with banning that. Laughing

Banks being banned from dealing with crypto exchanges doesn't mean that using fiat currency to buy crypto in any way is extremely difficult or completely illegal.

It's not going to make any difference to people wanting to use coins for nefarious purposes.


So long as person 2 is a private individual, not a registered exchange. A bank transfer, whilst managed by the individual is still a service provided by, and actually performed by a bank, so this might not be legal to perform if the 'person' is a business involved in crypto. I'll see if I can find the exact wording of the legislation.

Cash would still be possible of course, as that isn't provided by a bank, so you could pay the exchange in paper money.

Agreed that it's pretty meaningless, seems to be a measure against the transfer of large amounts of 'curency' in and out of the country as much as anything.

EDIT: THe exact wording is “entities regulated by RBI shall not deal with or provide services to any individual or business entities dealing with or settling VCs (virtual currencies)”. Which doesn't actually clarify things much.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 17:46 - 21 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Person 2 is a person, not an exchange or business, they're just a crypto coin enthusiast.

As long as person 1 doesn't put anything like "bitcoins" as the bank transfer reference then realistically, the bank will have no way of knowing what the transfer was for.

Then there's Paypal. Or Amazon gift cards. Or Western Union. Or any one of the many many other ways there are to send money to someone on the internet.

Banning bitcoin exchanges blah blah blah makes for nice headlines and makes Joe Public think the government are doing something to stop those nasty drug dealing ISIS terrorists paying each other with bitcoins but it doesn't really achieve much. It'll stop casual investors and people wanting to take a ride on the bandwagon but it's business as usual for people using coins for dodgy stuff.

Meh, the 90 days can and probably will be extended so we'll get to see how it all plays out. Laughing
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Ste
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PostPosted: 23:38 - 22 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Turns out you can get fucked by the price of bitcoin.

Not work safe. Laughing

Download this: https://www.camsoda.com/bitcast

Sync with your dildo or buttplug from these people: https://www.lovense.com/

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Pjay
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PostPosted: 10:06 - 23 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I said at first, India are not banning Crypto, it was just never going to happen.

They have just put a regulation in place to put a buffer between the banking system and Crypto.

Perfect. I wish the governments the world over would do this, as they are effectively signing the death warrant of banks, not Crypto, if you look at it from the Crypto standpoint. If Crypto is to truly take over from Banks and Government issued currencies, then this serves to empower crypto, not harm it.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 12:43 - 23 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:

Perfect. I wish the governments the world over would do this, as they are effectively signing the death warrant of banks, not Crypto, if you look at it from the Crypto standpoint. If Crypto is to truly take over from Banks and Government issued currencies, then this serves to empower crypto, not harm it.


???

Governments demand taxes in return for public services, and the taxes are only paid in the currency issued by the central bank, which in all cases so far is not crypto currency.

So how would India's new ruling spell the creeping end of its banking system in any way at all? Or any banking system for that matter?
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 12:47 - 23 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
Banks can't deal with exchanges but that doesn't stop person 1 making a bank transfer to person 2 in exchange for some bitcoins.


Yes and that renders bitcoin completely useless. It's the same as making a person-to-person cash transfer for any commodity.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 13:12 - 23 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
So how would India's new ruling spell the creeping end of its banking system in any way at all? Or any banking system for that matter?

If everyone used crypto, which is the endgame of crypto, it will be the end of banks. Blocking the two from working together, serves the longterm good of crypto, not banks.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 13:13 - 23 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
Yes and that renders bitcoin completely useless. It's the same as making a person-to-person cash transfer for any commodity.


People pay for things with Bitcoin, bypassing banking systems.
This will always be the case.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 13:16 - 23 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
It's the same as making a person-to-person cash transfer for any commodity.

Precisely.

Which is why person 1 will always be able to buy bitcoins from person 2.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 17:23 - 23 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:
So how would India's new ruling spell the creeping end of its banking system in any way at all? Or any banking system for that matter?

If everyone used crypto, which is the endgame of crypto, it will be the end of banks. Blocking the two from working together, serves the longterm good of crypto, not banks.


For as long as governments demand that taxes are paid in their own currency, there will be banks serving the purpose of dealing with that currency.

Bitcoin can't get around this. Anyone who thinks about mass buying of bitcoins in the hope they'll become legal tender is a fool. It's exactly the same as tulips, dotcoms, properties and everything else. Prices are based on speculation and a highly fluctuating perception of scarcity. This is especially true when central banks across the world are increasingly stating, without any ifs of buts, that bitcoin is not legal tender for them. But now we're repeating ourselves Very Happy
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 17:46 - 23 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
central banks across the world are increasingly stating, without any ifs of buts, that bitcoin is not legal tender for them

Yes, up here it goes tribunals / ADR Arrow Justice of the Peace Arrow Sheriff Court Arrow Court of Session or High Court of Justiciary Arrow Barclays Bank.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 18:15 - 23 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
For as long as governments demand that taxes are paid in their own currency, there will be banks serving the purpose of dealing with that currency.


Only that's not how life is. Anywhere you can demonstrate the failing of banks, I can show you the rise of crypto. Greece, Zimbabwe and Venezuela, for example.

You keep on thinking it's a bubble, there's no point in anyone changing your mind, but if you think it's some niche market, you are sadly mistaken, it's been around for over a decade and is growing nicely, nothing like your Tulip mania and dotcoms, the boom and bust has already happened with Bitcoin over Dec/Jan and yet here we are, with BTC still over 400% more than it was this time last year and being used daily the world over. Yes, used daily, that's right. There are huge amounts of transactions in crypto every hour, all paying for something or another.

Banks are handlers of money, if there is nothing for people to put into banks, there will be no need for them. Like I have stated before, yes you can pay taxes with your crypto, there are companies that do the conversion for you into whatever fiat currency you choose.

And yes we are repeating ourselves, you dont seem to let the simple things sink in. Maybe a re-read of the thread is in order? You might then learn a thing or two.
I wont bank on it though, I'm sure I will repeat myself to you, as I usually do.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 03:53 - 24 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:

Banks are handlers of money, if there is nothing for people to put into banks, there will be no need for them.


I don't understand why you've overlooked the point that was originally made by Itchy a few months ago. As long as the government continues to demand that its taxes are paid by its currency of choice, no banking system can be sidelined by the crypto commodity. Doesn't matter if you have a billion bitcoins or what, if the government demands its taxes are paid as £/$/元 or whatever, then you have to turn those bitcoins into the mandated currency or face jail time.

Claiming you can pay for everything including taxes with bitcoins is the same as me claiming I can do the same with an ultra expensive set of super rare shiny blastoise pokemon cards. "They're really expensive and people place value on them, so the government will definitely take raw pokemon cards as a form of payment!"

I don't understand what's so hard to grasp about this, truly. Bitcoin is an item, yep, people place value on it, yep, it's getting increasingly popular, yep, its value is skyrocketing, yep. But governments don't accept it as legal tender... so it's a commodity.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 10:44 - 24 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
I don't understand what's so hard to grasp about this, truly. Bitcoin is an item, yep, people place value on it, yep, it's getting increasingly popular, yep, its value is skyrocketing, yep. But governments don't accept it as legal tender... so it's a commodity.

I dont know what is so hard to grasp about you not needing to hold £ to pay them with bitcoin. I can send you or anyone £1000 to your bank account, just using my bitcoin.

Whilst I understand banks will exist for a long time, even governments will eventually accept direct crypto payments. It's happening already.

You're inability to grasp the concept of change is astonishing, maybe you fear it.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 11:39 - 24 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want to say we should agree to disagree but I'm just too sure of bitcoin having no future whatsoever outside its bubble of fans who seem to be convinced that they've actually managed to reinvent the wheel.


At least we agreed on the absurdity of the Skripal thing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Last edited by Lord Percy on 01:02 - 25 Apr 2018; edited 1 time in total
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 14:58 - 24 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
I want to say we should agree to disagree but I'm just too sure of bitcoin having no future whatsoever outside it's bubble of fans who seem to be convinced that they've actually managed to reinvent the wheel.


I purchased a 3D printer with Bitcoin.
https://www.prusa3d.com/
They invented the Prusa style 3D printer and made it open source, allowing anyone to use their designs and make their own or improve on it. This is why Ebay is awash with Prusa i3 clones at £130.
Forward thinkers you see. They can't keep up with demand, it still takes them months to fulfil an order due to people wanting to be part of something special. Innovation is a wonderful thing.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 01:17 - 25 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you spent $1000 on a 3D printer which is now opened sourced, vastly cheaper, and will almost certainly never see a return on investment? Well done Very Happy.

I mean that's fine but it's about as important as me telling you I bought an expensive milkshake this morning then found I could have bought the same milkshake for far cheaper if I'd not dived in to the hype so quickly. Fools and their money, hey.

Also your printer purchase spells nothing for the supposed greatness of the Master Currency. If I got to know the owner and he decided he liked the look of my car, I could perhaps trade my car for a printer. Doesn't mean cars are currency though.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 08:53 - 25 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
So you spent $1000 on a 3D printer which is now opened sourced, vastly cheaper, and will almost certainly never see a return on investment? Well done Very Happy.

I mean that's fine but it's about as important as me telling you I bought an expensive milkshake this morning then found I could have bought the same milkshake for far cheaper if I'd not dived in to the hype so quickly. Fools and their money, hey.

Also your printer purchase spells nothing for the supposed greatness of the Master Currency. If I got to know the owner and he decided he liked the look of my car, I could perhaps trade my car for a printer. Doesn't mean cars are currency though.


No, I purchased it in kit form and it has pretty much already paid for itself. The clones are not close enough to be in real competition with the original, they are cloning the method more than the actual parts.
For instance, the mainboard alone for the MK3 is £150 from its maker.
The heatbed another £50 even for a close clone.

I was merely pointing out that outside of the bitcoin bubble, you can spend bitcoin. The rate at which you are wrong is astounding.
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