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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 12:31 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
I suspect it'll be regulated, controlled or outlawed before long,


So as I was saying... South Korea mulls all-out ban on bitcoin transaction

The Artist wrote:
the crypto sector.


The crypto sector is what exactly? Something productive for society? I think not. Where does it gets resources from and what do its investors hope to gain? That's why it's a pyramid.

At very very best I'd suggest it could become similar to investment banking, but entirely based on the pyramid it sits on. There'll be companies saying, "Give us your money (real money) and we'll invest it in bitoin, litecoin, etherium, dogecoin...etc etc... whichever currency isn't about to crash at the given moment, and try to give you a return on the money (real money) you gave us."
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 12:48 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
The crypto sector is what exactly? Something productive for society? I think not.


There are plenty of realworld applications for crypto.
For one, if you are an international company that takes payments in various currencies, you could save millions by not having to pay fees to exchange currencies. Then there are smart contracts and the crowd funding of startups. You can offer shares in your company as a crypto, which would increase in value as the company increases in value and then there are currencies like Bitcoin and Litecoin which are stores of value, such as Gold is.

Governments have tried banning Crypto before, it hasn't worked and never will.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 12:57 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:
The crypto sector is what exactly? Something productive for society? I think not.


There are plenty of realworld applications for crypto.
For one, if you are an international company that takes payments in various currencies, you could save millions by not having to pay fees to exchange currencies. Then there are smart contracts and the crowd funding of startups. You can offer shares in your company as a crypto, which would increase in value as the company increases in value and then there are currencies like Bitcoin and Litecoin which are stores of value, such as Gold is.

Governments have tried banning Crypto before, it hasn't worked and never will.


But gold has long since been replaced by fiat money which is magicked electronically out of thin air as and when needed. So society already has a store of value.

I wouldn't say it's very smart taking shares in the form of bitcoin though, because of aforementioned crash potential!

As far as taking global payments, fair enough, but paypal, alipay and their ilk are already doing this. Also, all it takes is for banks to cotton on and adjust their exchange rates and transaction fees, then people won't have any need to adopt a whole new system.

Another thing worth noting is that every nation has limits on how much can be freely taken into or out of the country, for reasons of economic security. This is another reason why crypto 'currency' will ended up regulated or outlawed. That is, if it's really classed as a currency. At the moment it seems more like a valueless commodity that people are free to take risks with as they please. This is different from fiat money which generally has a well controlled value due to it being managed by government, rather than being based purely on public speculation and the amount of people who buying in at the time.

Which governments have tried and failed to ban it so far?
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 13:17 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buying into shares of companies is done mostly with Ethereum, which isn't bitcoin, can be purchased with fiat and has its own Blockchain.
Its price isn't linked to BTC, and has been a lot more stable in price.

Plenty of startups have used it to great success, so it's here and it works and it's a great idea.

You are not quite understanding the international payments thing.
Paypal and the like, still get you to pay in your currency and have to convert it to theirs at some point, to get it into their bank. By using a crypto like BCH, there are minuscule transaction fees and fast transaction times. You could have a wallet on your phone and pay with a tap on a reader. So if you are a company like Uber and you want to globally roll out autonomous cars, you would want a payment system that was fast, secure and above all else, cheap. Crypto fits this perfectly. Globally they would only be taking a single currency type and would have no need to exchange it, as in the future, the cars would be able to charge using BCH and the company would be able to buy the cars in BCH.

You are using yesterdays tech to solve tomorrows problems. The future is coming and it involves crypto.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 15:41 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:
there are minuscule transaction fees and fast transaction times.


My brother bought some Litecoins a little while ago. Ended up short of cash so wanted to withdraw it back into real money. He only had about £40 to take out. The withdrawal fee was £8! So he didn't bother.

What's that extortion all about?

Quote:

You are using yesterdays tech to solve tomorrows problems. The future is coming and it involves crypto.


What problems? Do you mean the problem of doing international transactions with lots of different currencies all at once? If it were that easy and/or beneficial it would be solved in moments by cutting away all laws on international money transfers and agreeing on a single world currency. It's probably worth asking why this hasn't happened yet. To say the current world banking is just a load of old leviathan entities run by old people who "just don't understand the modern world, maaan", is a bit naive I think.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 15:41 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

"South Korea is considering banning all kinds of cryptocurrency transactions in the country"

Laughing

Good luck with that. It's nearly as stupid as when David Cameron said that he wanted to ban encryption.
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 15:59 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
My brother bought some Litecoins a little while ago. Ended up short of cash so wanted to withdraw it back into real money. He only had about £40 to take out. The withdrawal fee was £8! So he didn't bother.

What's that extortion all about?


I bought some litecoins on Sunday morning. They are now worth twice what I paid.

When I sell my shares in the US, I have to pay a fixed £20 wire transfer fee to withdraw the cash, so £8 is hardly extortionate. I assume it's to prevent people from investing, then waiting until they've gained 10p profit, and then withdrawing, as that would overload their systems I guess.

I'm no cryptocurrency evangelist, but I can afford to lose all the money I invested, and if I'm smart, I can sell litecoin to the value of my original investment, and I've not lost anything.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 16:25 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
Pjay wrote:
there are minuscule transaction fees and fast transaction times.


My brother bought some Litecoins a little while ago. Ended up short of cash so wanted to withdraw it back into real money. He only had about £40 to take out. The withdrawal fee was £8! So he didn't bother.

What's that extortion all about?


You are talking about banking fees, crypto is looking to replace banking.
If your brother wants to send his litecoins to me, I will paypal him whatever they cost him + £8. They would have made a lot more than £8 in profit. Sending them to me will cost pennies, we all win.
I recently withdrew £2500 to my bank account and paid £15 in SEPA fees. Yes it's high, but then again banks are thieves. All the more reason cryptos will make banks obsolete.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 16:38 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
What problems? Do you mean the problem of doing international transactions with lots of different currencies all at once? If it were that easy and/or beneficial it would be solved in moments by cutting away all laws on international money transfers and agreeing on a single world currency. It's probably worth asking why this hasn't happened yet. To say the current world banking is just a load of old leviathan entities run by old people who "just don't understand the modern world, maaan", is a bit naive I think.


Laughing

You do realise that crypto replaces the need for banks?
Each person holds their own currency and sends it via the blockchain to the recipient, with no establishment involved. The fees will be tiny, so that you can send £1000 for pennies. Those fees are then bundled in with other fees and given to the miner of the bunch of transactions in the form of crypto.

There will become a point where there is no FIAT, this is because people will not need it, or want to use it, as it will be expensive and pointless to do so. Banks will be gone, or at best they will just become money lenders. If you think this is all pie in the sky, you are mistaken, it is the reality of where currency handling is heading. To assume banks the world over can solve it by merging into a single transaction free system, is laughable. They need to make billions, those billions are not going to be coming from the masses, as the masses will have adopted crypto to be paid and to pay. This might not happen in the next 10-15 years, but it will happen. As soon as something is more convenient and free(ish) people will take to it like ducks to water. Remember we are in an age where our children are already using apps for everything they can, they will take to it in floods.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 18:53 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:

There will become a point where there is no FIAT


No there will always be fiat money and this is where bitcoin fails staggeringly.

Fiat money is a government controlled token of value for exchange of goods and services in the economy. Government can increase the supply of money if or when needed. Last time this happened was when George Osborne began his 'quantitative easing' plan, aka printing money. It was necessary for maintaining inflation rates and preventing a full economic depression.

When bitcoin supposedly takes over, there'll need to be a central bitcoin bank to perform similar economic management tasks. But then the apparent selling point of bitcoin will be lost, because it'll be centrally managed, presumably by a government entity and will therefore be regulated and controlled. Anyone who wants to use their bitcoins abroad will be told to pay a levy because the government isn't isn't happy about its nation's bitcoins being taken out to be permanently used elsewhere.

Furthermore, there will be people who don't have enough bitcoins to do what they want to do, say buy a house or something, so they'll find a bitcoin-wealthy lender who can provide some bitcoins via a loan which is paid back over time with interest and... hang on, this is all sounding a lot like the current banking system. So what problem is being solved exactly?

Quote:
As soon as something is more convenient and free(ish) people will take to it like ducks to water.


Convenient and free? So what's a debit card if it isn't convenient or free?

The only potential for extra convenience I can see here is that of international money transaction. But I've already explained how that wouldn't be a thing in a full-bitcoin world.

Actually that's another thing I'd like to point out. You talk about 'cryptocurrency' like it's one singular thing, but it isn't. Bitcoin, Litecoin, Dogecoin, ethereum.... all with different values. Why? Currency strength is supposed to represent the power of the economy it represents. Crypto coins have no true economy behind them. Their strength is founded entirely in the people throwing money at it in the hope they'll someday be able to get real (not crypto) money back from it later.

Can you give an alternative explanation for why each crypto currency is worth different amounts, how each currency will be united in this future cryptopia, and what you think should happen in an economic downturn where currency value needs to be manipulated by a central entity to ensure there isn't a full economic crash?
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owl
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PostPosted: 18:59 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:

Convenient and free? So what's a debit card if it isn't convenient or free?


A lot of places it's not, South Africa for example, you HAVE to pay for the privilege of a bank account, you have to pay to transfer money, you pay to withdraw money, you even pay to deposit money, that's right you pay the bank a fee to give them your money.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 19:31 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

vice wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:

Convenient and free? So what's a debit card if it isn't convenient or free?


A lot of places it's not, South Africa for example, you HAVE to pay for the privilege of a bank account, you have to pay to transfer money, you pay to withdraw money, you even pay to deposit money, that's right you pay the bank a fee to give them your money.


Meaning it costs even more when you want to cash in and turn those bitcoins into real money in your real bank account Sad
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owl
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PostPosted: 21:12 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:


Meaning it costs even more when you want to cash in and turn those bitcoins into real money in your real bank account Sad


Not if you no longer need a “real” bank account, believe is the point people are trying to make.
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PostPosted: 21:43 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the HW mining gurus.

Would it be a bad idea to mix more than one make/model GPU per rig?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 22:24 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

vice wrote:
Not if you no longer need a “real” bank account, believe is the point people are trying to make.

See the point earlier that bitcoin has already died stillborn as a currency since nobody is going to be spending it on goods and services. Dragons coiled around their cryptogold.
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Pigeon
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PostPosted: 22:26 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:
The future is coming and it involves crypto.


And just like that central banks will roll over and give up everything. I doubt it.
If they perceive a genuine threat then they will simply ban buying goods and services with crypto, or they will reclassify it as a taxable asset...or.... Any manner of legislation that protects the status quo and preserves power.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 22:56 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pigeon wrote:
And just like that central banks will roll over and give up everything. I doubt it.


They will have no choice.
It will happen something like this:

The company you work for will at some point take crypto as payment for their service/goods. They will then offer to pay their employees including you, in crypto.
You will opt for crypto as you will be using it anyhow and the bank charges you a fee to convert your wages to your wallet, that you use to pay for most things, much like a contactless debit card.

There are debit cards that are crypto based out there right now. You can pay for anything with these cards at any Visa/Mastercard pay point. It wont be too long before there are crypto only points.
There are also crypto ATM's all over the world

https://coinatmradar.com/

This is happening, it's real and it's here.

If you told someone in the 50's that everyone would be using banks/bank cards to pay for everything, they would treat you with the same scepticism you will see here. Back then, you were paid in cash by your employer and you paid cash for everything from your own wallet. Not everyone had a bank account, they were there for savings.
It's only recently that we have all gone to banks to handle our money for us. It's a more simple transition back out away from banks, than people think.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 23:00 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
See the point earlier that bitcoin has already died stillborn as a currency since nobody is going to be spending it on goods and services. Dragons coiled around their cryptogold.


Bitcoin will almost certainly not be the crypto used for transactions.
There are hundreds of crypto out there that do the job much better, LTC is one.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 23:15 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:
As soon as something is more convenient and free(ish) people will take to it like ducks to water. Remember we are in an age where our children are already using apps for everything they can, they will take to it in floods.

It's surprising how many people still (want to) use cash though. I do pretty much everywhere apart from the supermarket as I don't trust chip and pin (the system was hacked ages ago).

Rogerborg wrote:
vice wrote:
Not if you no longer need a “real” bank account, believe is the point people are trying to make.

See the point earlier that bitcoin has already died stillborn as a currency since nobody is going to be spending it on goods and services. Dragons coiled around their cryptogold.

I get what they're saying, in societies without the infrastructure we have (banks + free cash points everywhere) there has been an adoption of alternative payment methods, I believe Zuckerberg has shown interest in M-Pesa. So something along those lines, especially in junk economies where you don't want your money in the local currency (think Zimbabweans using US dollars), could have a real future.

With us it's getting people to change their spending habits. Does anyone use Android or Apple pay?
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The Artist
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PostPosted: 00:10 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:
There are hundreds of crypto out there that do the job much better, LTC is one.


https://i.redd.it/kaxis1weo2301.jpg

LTC is BTC x4. Same problems exist with it, once tx reach 4x bitcoins, the problems will likely be identical.
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PostPosted: 00:14 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just saw this: Thinking Thumbs Up

https://www.rouming.cz/upload/Buy.jpg
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The Artist
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PostPosted: 00:15 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:

There will become a point where there is no FIAT


This just isn't true. If crypto develops well enough, governments may issue their own crypto to utilise the technology but they probably won't. FIAT has a purpose and crypto will exist along side it.

Right now, if I want to buy stuff with crypto, it is possible but it isn't seamless and easy. This will probably be the case for at least next few years but development is happening very quickly.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 00:19 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Artist wrote:
LTC is BTC x4. Same problems exist with it, once tx reach 4x bitcoins, the problems will likely be identical.


LTC is still more suited than BTC. Also LTC have little problem implementing fixes and segwits.

I am pretty sure LTC wont be the end use crypto, but like I said, it is one of many that are better.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 00:22 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Artist wrote:
This just isn't true.

Do you think there will be FIAT currencies in 500 years?

My personal opinion is that there will be no use for them.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 00:26 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Does anyone use Android or Apple pay?


This or something similar is the real future of transactions.

Alipay and Wechat Pay are the Chinese versions and they are lightyears ahead of anything the west has currently put forward. You can manage pretty much your entire life from one single app. Look at this:

https://i66.tinypic.com/2qvwnev.jpg
https://i68.tinypic.com/2zdodpd.jpg
https://i63.tinypic.com/zmdwfb.png

That's everything you could ever want to do. Household bills, personal payments, travel tickets, mobile top-up, online shopping, food, taxis... etc etc... in one single app which is in fact primarily a messaging service. The money stuff is only a fairly recent addition. It's essentially whatsapp + facebook + paypal in one app on elephant steroids.

It's used in the entire of China. Billions or even trillions of yuan must pass through Alipay and Wechat every day. To pay in shops you just scan a QR code and key in your amount, along with your bank PIN number. Even poor-looking street sellers on the side of the road accept this as a mode of payment. There are even examples of beggars using it!

When folk talk about ease or convenience, this is what they want. Not some absurd new currency system that nobody is asking for.

If I were placing a bet on what the currency/finance/transaction environment will look like in 10 years time, I would say banks will still operate as they do, a lot more people will be propping up the crypto pyramid, and one or two mobile phone apps will completely dominate for making financial transactions (using real money, not cryptocurrency which is too volatile and constantly reliant on speculation). I wouldn't be surprised if Wechat was at the helm. It was introduced as a payment option at Camden market last month, so western inroads are being made.
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