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Lord Percy
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Joined: 03 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: 17:24 - 14 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Artist wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:
So basically the government have seen it for the speculation-propped pyramid scheme that is is and sidelined it as nothing more than a purchasable pseudo-commodity with a manufactured sense of value that people are free to throw money at as long as they're the only ones who lose out if the bubble bursts?


More like China has some of the strictest capital controls in the world and they do not allow their citizens to send large amounts of money abroad.


Almost every nation has limits on how much hard cash a person can send abroad.

Quote:
Cryptocurrency can bypass these rules easily.


And that's a reason why China banned exchanges of cash for crypto.
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Jayy
Mr. Ponzi



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PostPosted: 17:37 - 14 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:


Makes you want to start your own cryptocurrency get rich scheme. Laughing



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Pjay
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PostPosted: 20:24 - 14 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
And that's a reason why China banned exchanges of cash for crypto.

No they didn't.

You are still not understanding what was banned.
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Sload
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PostPosted: 21:09 - 14 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
This thread is giving me a good laugh. Laughing
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 21:39 - 14 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pjay wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:
And that's a reason why China banned exchanges of cash for crypto.

No they didn't.

You are still not understanding what was banned.


Well you still haven't explained it properly.

"ICOs and exchanges are banned" is crypto-Latin to me.

I want to know exactly what a person can still do with their bitcoins in China, in the Chinese market, if they want to buy something in China.

Also, I'd be a bit more willing to reconsider my scepticism if a response could be given for this:

Lord Percy wrote:
Pjay wrote:
https://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-explained-five-year-old/


This doesn't even remotely get around what I explained before. Here are those problems again, in condensed form:

1. Cryptocurrency, having no central management agency, has no way of being used for large scale economic control at times of great inflation or depression.

2. People who don't have much cryptocurrency will resort to lenders, aka cryptocurrency banks, and other lenders or loan sharks will pop up too, all offering a non-productive service in return for cyrptocurrency interest payments... so there will still be a middle man - a taker of money whose sole purpose is to sit in the middle and take a cut from the primary transaction - and so it ends up being the same as the system we have already.

Can you explain how crypto currency will deal with those things?
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Ste
Not Work Safe



Joined: 01 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: 21:45 - 14 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Exchanges are places where you can buy bitcoins for other currencies.

https://www.coindesk.com/chinas-bitcoin-exchanges-shift-p2p-model-domestic-crackdown/

You or anyone else can quite happily buy things using Bitcoin in China.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 21:52 - 14 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
So what good are your bitcoins in a country where it's not possible to swap those bitcoins for the legal form of tender?
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Ste
Not Work Safe



Joined: 01 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: 22:02 - 14 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Do feel free to have a look at the page I just linked to. Wink

Failing that, there's always localbitcoins.

https://localbitcoins.com/country/CN

If someone is having lots of trouble digesting and understanding it all then I'd just advise them to steer clear of bitcoin.
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MarJay
But it's British!



Joined: 15 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: 22:02 - 14 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
So what good are your bitcoins in a country where it's not possible to swap those bitcoins for the legal form of tender?


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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 22:16 - 14 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
Do feel free to have a look at the page I just linked to. Wink

Failing that, there's always localbitcoins.

https://localbitcoins.com/country/CN

If someone is having lots of trouble digesting and understanding it all then I'd just advise them to steer clear of bitcoin.


Right so the bitcoins still need to be traded for real money before they can be used to physically buy anything.

Still seems like an ultimately valueless pyramid fad which is only being propped up because more and more people are chucking money into the pot.

I've already explained why it can't replace fiat currency. So what else is it good for, other than speculating for profits based on the current size and wealth of the entire user base and their accounts?
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 22:33 - 14 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
Ste wrote:
Do feel free to have a look at the page I just linked to. Wink

Failing that, there's always localbitcoins.

https://localbitcoins.com/country/CN

If someone is having lots of trouble digesting and understanding it all then I'd just advise them to steer clear of bitcoin.


Right so the bitcoins still need to be traded for real money before they can be used to physically buy anything.

Still seems like an ultimately valueless pyramid fad which is only being propped up because more and more people are chucking money into the pot.

I've already explained why it can't replace fiat currency. So what else is it good for, other than speculating for profits based on the current size and wealth of the entire user base and their accounts?


PiHut now accepts BTC.
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Ste
Not Work Safe



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PostPosted: 22:33 - 14 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
You don't need to trade bitcoin for cash before you can buy something.

I'll sell you a Mars Bar for 1 bitcoin.
I'll then go and buy stock from the wholesalers that accepts bitcoin.

From that point on I don't really care what they do with their bitcoin. It makes no difference to me what currency they choose to convert their bitcoin to.

Your description of why it's a valueless pyramid fad which is only being propped up because more and more people are chucking money into the pot sounds not dissimilar to inflation and quantitative easing which aren't problems bitcoin has.

What it's good for is being a decentralised currency which is a lot closer to being anonymous than fiat currencies are. When you combine that with the international transfer / transaction fees your bank will hit you with, it's a viable option for transferring capital around.

Unfortunately I've no idea where you'd need to go to speculate for profits based on the current size and wealth of the entire user base and their accounts. That sounds almost impossible because being decentralised means there's no record of how many people are using it. Laughing
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 22:58 - 14 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
What it's good for is being a decentralised currency which is a lot closer to being anonymous than fiat currencies are. When you combine that with the international transfer / transaction fees your bank will hit you with, it's a viable option for transferring capital around.


But I just listed in two points how that can't happen because a stable economy requires a central bank, and people with not enough bitcoins will turn to bitcoin lenders which will no doubt exist in the form of banks.

Ste wrote:

Unfortunately I've no idea where you'd need to go to speculate for profits based on the current size and wealth of the entire user base and their accounts. That sounds almost impossible because being decentralised means there's no record of how many people are using it. Laughing


The size and wealth can be seen clear as day just by looking at how much the price of bitcoin goes up or down against real world currencies. It only goes up because more money is being chucked in, and it goes down whenever people start to pull out.

Speculation for profit is done by the huge charts on every bitcoin app and websites which show its current value against real world currencies (funny how they're all so obsessed with how much real world currency bitcoin can be traded for). Buy when it's cheap, sell when it's expensive. Like stock market trading but there's no stock other than the money people already put in. It's nonsense.
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Ste
Not Work Safe



Joined: 01 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: 23:11 - 14 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
"a stable economy requires a central bank"

The Bitcoin economy is doing just fine without one.

If you think you haven't got enough bitcoins then you can go to P2P lenders. Or you could use some fiat currency to buy bitcoins.

There's a lot more to the reasons why the value of bitcoin goes up than just because money is being chucked in.

You could get websites to show the current value against Mars Bars if you wanted to. The current value being displayed will depend on which exchange they're tracking.

The size and wealth of the entire user base are both unknown. Everyone can see transactions that are being made but that's not the same as wealth.

Just because you don't understand something or see what it's good for doesn't mean that it's a nonsense fad pyramid scheme. I mean, it's taken 14 pages for you to understand what a Bitcoin exchange is. Laughing
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bladerunner
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PostPosted: 23:28 - 14 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
bladerunner wrote:
well boys I'm rocking £1.33 today....partly by the 11% rise in Monero overnight Thumbs Up Laughing

If you cash out, which you won't.

I have a green banana. It'll be worth more tomorrow when it's ripe. Therefore it'll get more and more valuable every day forever.


Today my cyber wealth went up to £2.46 ...by the time your banana has gone past its peak value I shall have enough for 20 Bananas....I'll be doing my first withdraw on Monday!! Rich I tell ya...Rich..I mean only 2 strokes go up this much as an "investment" in the bike world!! you know the least reliable and most fuel hungry ones Laughing
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 23:55 - 14 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
What hardware you using?
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 23:59 - 14 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
"a stable economy requires a central bank"

The Bitcoin economy is doing just fine without one.

If you think you haven't got enough bitcoins then you can go to P2P lenders. Or you could use some fiat currency to buy bitcoins.



No it isn't doing fine at all, it's volatile as fuck Laughing ! All you need is for a few high up and respected bitcoin folk to tell the lower ranks of the following that it's all about to crash, just for lols, and then crash it most certainly will, when the rush to convert bitcoins to real cash begins. And there's no central bitcoin bank or regulator to keep things going smoothly when that happens.

Go to P2P lenders? So you think bitcoin world won't end up with some very wealthy bitcoin folk who decide to operate as a huge bitcoin financial entity... a bit like a bank?





Quote:
There's a lot more to the reasons why the value of bitcoin goes up than just because money is being chucked in.


So for what reasons, aside from pyramid money and speculation, is the value of bitcoin going up? Seems to be a rather obvious correlation between 'the value of bitcoin' and 'the amount of people talking about bitcoin and throwing money at the pot'.


Quote:
Just because you don't understand something or see what it's good for doesn't mean that it's a nonsense fad pyramid scheme. I mean, it's taken 14 pages for you to understand what a Bitcoin exchange is. Laughing


I do understand it. It's a nonsense fad pyramid scheme with a devout following of people whose only reason for being so supportive of it is because there are more followers coming after them who pay in and add more potentially withdrawable wealth to the system.

I look forward to the crash.
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 00:12 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
So you can buy in?
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bladerunner
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PostPosted: 01:06 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:
What hardware you using?


just my bog stock pc. only playing for a giggle its a 3 yr old i7 with a gtx 1060 6gb. im mining mostly monero (XMR) so you dont get much benefit from running more than half the graphics card or just 2 of the 8 possible cpu's ....so unless I'm playing cod2 or the such i can mine etherium classic and fantom coins etc for very little loss whilst on the net. the rest of the time I'm editing or playing games and then it gets put in pause mode for mining.....and yes you can buy most crypto coins for flat cash. if I'd bought the coins im mining now for cash at the beginning of the week I'd be 20% up already! but I get the feeling that a lot of these coins are riding on the bitcoin bubble so I'll not take a loan out on my house just yet but I will do some mining and do some buying and selling with the money I earn minus power costs....if I'm more than a composted banana in the black I'm happy Laughing Laughing Laughing
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 01:07 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Fair enough. Using Minergate?
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bladerunner
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PostPosted: 01:15 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
yup quick and easy with a dashboard I can check from my mobile but will look at trying some others once I make a withdraw of my current crypto
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bladerunner
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PostPosted: 01:22 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
monero was worth $8.40 in january this year.it was $279 a week ago...today its $328 so 16% rise in just a week or 3900% rise in less than 12 months....its payday loan kinda returns Shocked Shocked Laughing
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The Artist
Super Spammer



Joined: 06 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: 02:54 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
Quote:
Cryptocurrency can bypass these rules easily.

And that's a reason why China banned exchanges of cash for crypto.

So first you are saying it was banned because it is a pyramid scheme and then you agree with me saying it was because of capital controls? OK...

Lord Percy wrote:
"ICOs and exchanges are banned" is crypto-Latin to me.

Then why are you so fervently anti-crypto?

Lord Percy wrote:
I want to know exactly what a person can still do with their bitcoins in China, in the Chinese market, if they want to buy something in China.

Anything they want except set up an exchange that deals with CNY or set up an ICO. An ICO is just a blockchain based kickstarter but instead of goods, you get an investment in whatever company is offering it. These are mostly money grabs so sensible people avoid the vast majority.

Lord Percy wrote:
Right so the bitcoins still need to be traded for real money before they can be used to physically buy anything.

No. Localbitcoins is a way to buy and sell BTC for fiat money. It doesn't mean you need to sell BTC for fiat to buy something. That is up to whichever vendor you want to buy from.

Lord Percy wrote:
Speculation for profit is done by the huge charts on every bitcoin app and websites which show its current value against real world currencies (funny how they're all so obsessed with how much real world currency bitcoin can be traded for).

Yeah, because if you want to measure value, regular currencies are relatively stable compared to crypto. Crypto is a new asset class.

Lord Percy wrote:
No it isn't doing fine at all, it's volatile as fuck Laughing !

No shit. You can't just create a multi trillion $ industry out of thin air. It takes time and with this sort of growth comes market manipulators as well as regular people that are emotionally invested and trying to squeeze a bit of profit out at every opportunity.

Lord Percy wrote:
All you need is for a few high up and respected bitcoin folk to tell the lower ranks of the following that it's all about to crash, just for lols, and then crash it most certainly will, when the rush to convert bitcoins to real cash begins. And there's no central bitcoin bank or regulator to keep things going smoothly when that happens.

People have been saying that from day 1. You are not adding any new information, you are just expressing an opinion of what might happen and a lot of people disagree with you. Anyone who claims to know what will happen in financial markets in the future is either a genius or unaware of how complex these things are.

Lord Percy wrote:
I do understand it. It's a nonsense fad pyramid scheme with a devout following of people whose only reason for being so supportive of it is because there are more followers coming after them who pay in and add more potentially withdrawable wealth to the system.

Just have to disagree there. The use cases for blockchain technology are endless. If you don't understand why there needs to be a financial backbone to the blockchain to make it work then you need to do more research.

Lord Percy wrote:
I look forward to the crash.

Me too!
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Pjay
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Joined: 18 Jan 2016
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PostPosted: 10:20 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
More stuff about how Bitcoin can't work.


You should read this:
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths

It answers a lot of your questions.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:34 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pjay wrote:
You should read this:
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths

It answers a lot of your questions.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths#It.27s_a_giant_ponzi_scheme

Can you explain in what way bitcoin as it's currently being used in the real world does not have the characteristics of a Ponzi or pyramid scheme?
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