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The Artist
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PostPosted: 11:12 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
Pjay wrote:
You should read this:
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths

It answers a lot of your questions.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths#It.27s_a_giant_ponzi_scheme

Can you explain in what way bitcoin as it's currently being used in the real world does not have the characteristics of a Ponzi or pyramid scheme?


It may well have the characteristics of a ponzi scheme but it also has the potential to be disrupt a lot of industries and people are putting a lot of value on that. You could say people are betting or speculating on that.

As that wiki page says, no one is guaranteeing anyone profit. In fact, the vast majority of people won't stop telling you how risky it is.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 11:21 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
Pjay wrote:
You should read this:
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths

It answers a lot of your questions.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths#It.27s_a_giant_ponzi_scheme

Can you explain in what way bitcoin as it's currently being used in the real world does not have the characteristics of a Ponzi or pyramid scheme?


As the article says, the late adopters do not need to lose.
You could buy in today and sell tomorrow at a profit. Pyramid schemes rely on you making money from people joining after you.

Bitcoins also have a legitimate use as a currency outside of just buying and selling it for cash.

Pyramid/Ponzi schemes are a closed system, bitcoins are not.

You can have as much scepticism as you like, it doens't bother me, I've already won in crypto. If it all crashes tomorrow, I've still made more in the past 6 months than I have in the previous 5 years of my life.

Not being part of if was your fault, not mine, or bitcoins. There has been enough info in this thread to have made any one of us a small or even large fortune. Choosing to dismiss it is nothing that I can remedy. All I know is, I have still a nice chunk of money invested, all which has cost me nothing at all. It's a nice train to ride.
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The Artist
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PostPosted: 11:23 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pjay wrote:
I've already won in crypto. If it all crashes tomorrow, I've still made more in the past 6 months than I have in the previous 5 years of my life.

Not being part of if was your fault, not mine, or bitcoins. There has been enough info in this thread to have made any one of us a small or even large fortune. Choosing to dismiss it is nothing that I can remedy. All I know is, I have still a nice chunk of money invested, all which has cost me nothing at all. It's a nice train to ride.


https://i.imgur.com/0MY3uWN.jpg
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:32 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pjay wrote:
As the article says, the late adopters do not need to lose.

Not in an imaginary world where bitcoin value keeps rising or stabilises and it's generally adopted as a payment method.

However, that doesn't address my question of how it's being used in the real world.


Pjay wrote:
You could buy in today and sell tomorrow at a profit.

Sell to whom?

Pjay wrote:
Pyramid schemes rely on you making money from people joining after you.

See previous question.


Pjay wrote:
Bitcoins also have a legitimate use as a currency outside of just buying and selling it for cash.

In principle. See previous post. Is it being used as a currency?


Pjay wrote:
I've still made more in the past 6 months than I have in the previous 5 years of my life.

Whom did you scalp when you cashed out?

Pjay wrote:
All I know is, I have still a nice chunk of money invested

In bitcoin? When you said you'd "made" on it, I assumed you'd turned it into a more stable currency. Or are you still waiting for Peak Banana?
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 11:44 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Stay salty Smile

In the meantime, BTC is up 8% in the last 24 hours.

Oh and yeah, I take profits out as £'s simply because for now at least, they are easier to spend. There will become a point where that wont need to happen, but until then the GBP is my favoured currency for purchasing Xmas gifts and paying my bills.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 12:29 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pjay wrote:

As the article says, the late adopters do not need to lose.
You could buy in today and sell tomorrow at a profit. Pyramid schemes rely on you making money from people joining after you.


Nobody has yet explained how bitcoin is not the same as this. The only way it can gain value is by other people putting more real-world money into the pot. And why do they do that?


Quote:

You can have as much scepticism as you like, it doens't bother me, I've already won in crypto. If it all crashes tomorrow, I've still made more in the past 6 months than I have in the previous 5 years of my life.

Not being part of if was your fault, not mine, or bitcoins. There has been enough info in this thread to have made any one of us a small or even large fortune. Choosing to dismiss it is nothing that I can remedy. All I know is, I have still a nice chunk of money invested, all which has cost me nothing at all.


So how did you make the money? What service or product did you create or invest in? Who provided the money for your profits and why did they put the money in?

Quote:
It's a nice train to ride.


Indeed. This I don't disagree with and I may too buy in at some point - there is profit to be made. It's still a blatant pyramid though.


Regarding that long myth-busting article. I like this bit - Bitcoin is illegal because it's not legal tender:

Quote:
in general trading in any commodity, including digital currency like Bitcoin, BerkShares, game currencies like WoW gold, or Linden dollars, is not illegal.


So bitcoin is the same as online gamer currency. Like I said, it's just a trivial commodity that people can buy into as and when they please, under the full knowledge that it may become a useless non-item in the future. So what makes it so special? Apart form the potential to earn mega-bucks as the hype is still growing. Seems the same as, I dunno, trading shiny pokemon cards. If people started using pokemon cards as a way of making large, economically heavy purchases of items with high local real-world currency price in any country, you can bet they'd be banned. A bit like bitcoin was banned in China.

and:

Bictoin can't work because there is no way to control inflation:

Quote:
Given the fact that Bitcoin is a distributed system of currency, if demand were to decrease to almost nothing, the currency would be doomed anyway.


So if too many people decide to sell their coins for real world currency, it's over for bitcoin?

and I like this one: Bictoin is a pyramid scheme

Quote:
Bitcoin is nearly opposite of a pyramid scheme in a mathematical sense. Because Bitcoins are algorithmically made scarce, no exponential benefit is derived from introducing new users to use of it. There is a quantitative benefit in having additional interest or demand, but this is in no way exponential.


Okay so why has the price of bitcoin shot up, and why do most peole sign up to it?

Everyone I know has done it for one reason and one reason only - they can sell their coins for more later. That's pretty much the only thing the average Joe talks about when they talk about bitcoin.

And one final point. How does the concept of nation statehood, governance and public taxation come into play? Is bitcoin cryptopia stateless? Who will pay for hospitals, police, schools, roads etc? Is this not surely another reason why central banking is still fundamental? In an economic crisis the government needs the power to create economic balance for itself from the central bank, unless you think it's okay for every single public service to be at the whim of whatever 'market forces' the bitcoin world is at the behest of.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 13:13 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
The biggest single use for bitcoins at the moment is for purchasing other crypto with it. This alone gives it worth.

As long as there is a value/use, people will want it, it's that simple.
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P.
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PostPosted: 13:47 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Currently I'm finding it hard to sell at its "worth" price. I'm just using it to buy stuff for Xmas currently. Now steam have dropped that I'm using it for Xbox stuff as MS still accept

How are you selling yours? If you are selling...
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 14:11 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Paddy. wrote:
Currently I'm finding it hard to sell at its "worth" price. I'm just using it to buy stuff for Xmas currently. Now steam have dropped that I'm using it for Xbox stuff as MS still accept

How are you selling yours? If you are selling...

Coinbase lets you sell at market value to your bank account.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 14:49 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
If anyone thinks Bitcoin isn't viable, they only need to follow the situation in Venezuela at the moment.
It is literally saving the lives of people there and these are not rich people investing money to make money, these are people that are using Bitcoins to make life saving purchases like medication and food.

Also its worth noting that since the banking fiasco in Greece, Crypto use has been growing well there, as people are not trusting banks to hold their money any more.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 15:41 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pjay wrote:
If anyone thinks Bitcoin isn't viable, they only need to follow the situation in Venezuela at the moment.
It is literally saving the lives of people there and these are not rich people investing money to make money, these are people that are using Bitcoins to make life saving purchases like medication and food.

Also its worth noting that since the banking fiasco in Greece, Crypto use has been growing well there, as people are not trusting banks to hold their money any more.


Sorry but this is nonsense, it doesn't say anything about the viability of bitcoin. It says people are joining and benefiting from a currently growing pyramid scheme.

The only reason they can use bitcoins to buy food and medicine is because their bitcoins have grown in value, because it's a pyramid which is still growing. Lucky them.

Can you guarantee the saviour status of bitcoin for the Venezuelan people? Would you recommend that those without bitcoins buy into it right now with the very last of their savings? Can you guarantee the viability and stability of bitcoin to people in that situation?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 16:09 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pjay wrote:
these are people that are using Bitcoins to make life saving purchases like medication and food.

Seems like a legit strategy, but can you provide any sauce for it?

I'll give you one unverified dollop that's been re-re-re-reported everywhere.

"Jorge Ochoa, 34, who liquidated part of his bitcoin savings into dollars so that he could take his wife on a honeymoon to New York City."

Such life and death, very heartstring.

I like the guy who's bigging up crypto while making his living from creating imaginary money, that's a nice touch.
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Jayy
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PostPosted: 16:15 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
I keep seeing people in comments on articles about crypto saying, "But crypto is backed by absolutely nothing!".... yeah, much like our "fiat" currencies these days.

I think there's a lot of mis-information being flooded out there by governments too. We've seen how foreign states meddled in the US election. We've seen how they can meddle in any country using fuck loads of paid ads pushing propaganda and we've seen how highly effective it is. So much so, probably helped Trump get elected because of it all.

And you really think that most of the Western governments aren't shitting themselves over a decentralised currency becoming bigger than their own fiat currency in years to come? They'll be spinning all sorts of shite online and trying to manipulate it / us just like they do with their own currency.

I'm curious how all this is going to pan out over the next 5 years.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 16:16 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
Pjay wrote:
If anyone thinks Bitcoin isn't viable, they only need to follow the situation in Venezuela at the moment.
It is literally saving the lives of people there and these are not rich people investing money to make money, these are people that are using Bitcoins to make life saving purchases like medication and food.

Also its worth noting that since the banking fiasco in Greece, Crypto use has been growing well there, as people are not trusting banks to hold their money any more.


Sorry but this is nonsense, it doesn't say anything about the viability of bitcoin. It says people are joining and benefiting from a currently growing pyramid scheme.

The only reason they can use bitcoins to buy food and medicine is because their bitcoins have grown in value, because it's a pyramid which is still growing. Lucky them.

Can you guarantee the saviour status of bitcoin for the Venezuelan people? Would you recommend that those without bitcoins buy into it right now with the very last of their savings? Can you guarantee the viability and stability of bitcoin to people in that situation?


You are welcome to your views on bitcoin, you can sit back and watch saying we are all stupid to get sucked in and laugh when the market crashes 20% saying you knew it was all a scam. But the reality is, it's been here for 8 years and it's proven to be resilient and unhackable.
People the world over are changing their money over to it, because it's preferable to having a bank hold your money and then devalue it with inflation and quantitative easing.
If you think the current system is fine then that's all well and good, I dont.

I am happily going to keep making money while you can stay salty and hoping it falls around my ears. Good luck with that.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 16:28 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
Imaginary money


Is bitcoin any more imaginary than the dollar or the pound?

You can argue that they are backed with gold/stocks/bonds, but then bitcoin are backed with the fact they exist and have been made as a proof of work. Yes they exist, just as the money you have in your bank account exists. You bank doesn't hold your money in a 'roger box', they will give you cash when you want to withdraw it. Other than that, it's just on their own digital ledger that they own and edit.
Bitcoins ledger is available to everyone and therefore unhackable and transparent. Yes, I can also convert this to cash on request, it's quite a simple process that I have done numerous times.

I'm sure you read more on Venezuela than a honeymoon story, they have been using bitcoin for a good while now and there are plenty of stories out there. Nice one for finding a happy one though.

If Bitcoin really doesn't bother you guys, why are you bothering with this thread? Can't you just leave us to it? It's not like you are being forced to have a part in bitcoin, not yet at least.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 16:46 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pjay wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
Imaginary money

Is bitcoin any more imaginary than the dollar or the pound?

That's not what he's creating. Good job on not even reading the article that backs up your own assertion.


Pjay wrote:
If Bitcoin really doesn't bother you guys, why are you bothering with this thread?

Bitcoin can't buy you happiness. Picking a fite over nothing can.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 17:59 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pjay wrote:

I am happily going to keep making money while you can stay salty and hoping it falls around my ears. Good luck with that.


Oh no it won't fall for you. You got in early so the profits are already made (unless you do something extremely silly). That's the idea of a pyramid scheme Very Happy

I accept that plenty of people are going to make money from it, specially the early starters such as yourself. My brother just this month took a punt and has so far turned £40 into £400. But that doesn't at all change its fundamental nature as a pyramid setup.

And I did say I may just buy in myself at some point. I just don't believe it's going to change the world. I believe it'll peak and lose its relevance in the eyes of most people, and a fair few will lose out along the way, with not a speck of physical proof on the whole planet to show what their money went towards.

In fact it suddenly seems quite clear. If or when bitcoin style currency gains a firm stable holding on the planet with a majority of people using it (which I highly doubt), its value will exist solely by virtue of those who put their current real world cash in but got nothing out of it - the ones who sold too early or bought in too late. They come out with nothing, but have physically added permanent value to the pot. What a scam!

Enjoy your takings, anyway. If I somehow turn out to be wrong, so be it. I'll just carry on being small fry in whatever the next new world order is ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Ste
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PostPosted: 18:37 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
The more you argue your point, the clearer it is that you don't understand what a pyramid scheme is. Laughing
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 18:45 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
That's the idea of a pyramid scheme

It's clearly not a pyramid scheme.
You can use Bitcoin to purchase goods and pay for services.
If you start up a company and offer your services for bitcoin, how are you contributing money into this scheme? You aren't, you are contributing your work for the work of computing power.
You can also trade bitcoins for other crypto currencies that have a real world use, such as ICO's and smart contracts.
BTC is also used as the main currency on exchanges to purchase other cryptocurrencies, so its value is also linked to this use.
You can put money in and the price goes up or down, but Pyramid schemes are purely scams that will always fall over at some point, as they rely on recruitment. By design, bitcoin will cap itself with supplied coins, after that do you suppose it will all come crashing down?
No of course it wont. Bitcoin costs a lot of money to make, this is another reason why they are expensive, you are not buying fresh air or shares in a company that wont make a return on your investment, you are buying the proof of work that has occurred and was of use.

People that liken it to a pyramid scheme either dont know what bitcoin is or does, or they dont know what a pyramid scheme is. Maybe even both.

The biggest problem people have with it, especially in the media, is that they do not understand what drives it, therefore they cant predict it. This is why you can read all over the media about how fragile it is, but the reality is that they have no idea if it will be £500 next month or £50,000. This bothers them so they mostly call it a scam or advising people to steer clear. The reasons why it gains in value are so wide and varied that you cant predict its value, you can't even give it a value other than it's current price. To me this it its strength.

Things are worth only what people are willing to pay for them.

1 BTC is worth £13,650 fact.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 19:07 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
The more you argue your point, the clearer it is that you don't understand what a pyramid scheme is. Laughing


So how has bitcoin gained so much value?

And why do the majority of people get into it in the first place?

And what happens if or when those people decide they want out and sell up? Would bitcoin retain its value? How can that be managed?
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 19:34 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pjay wrote:
how are you contributing money into this scheme? You aren't, you are contributing your work for the work of computing power.

Bitcoin costs a lot of money to make, this is another reason why they are expensive, you are not buying fresh air or shares in a company that wont make a return on your investment, you are buying the proof of work that has occurred and was of use.


More utter nonsense Laughing .

Ah so 'computing power' is happening, so 'work' is being done, and when you put money in you are 'buying proof of the useful work that occurred, so there's your value!'

Sorry but this is priceless Laughing Where's the tangible product or service at the end of all this computer work? What task is being achieved?


Quote:

Things are worth only what people are willing to pay for them.

1 BTC is worth £13,650 fact.


And? Tulips and Dotcoms spring to mind.

Read this: Greater Fool Theory
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Ste
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PostPosted: 19:46 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bitcoin has increased in value because of the limited supply and increased demand from people using it as a currency.

In terms of how the majority of people get into it, people learn how to use it out of necessity or because it offers them the cheapest and easiest way of transferring money. Then there's the miners who've invested in hardware. Last but not least there's the people who've heard it's a good way to make a quick back but only know what they've read on the facebooks.

Which people are you talking about when asking what will happen when they want out? Bitcoin will retain value until something better comes along.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 19:52 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
Some more ignorant guff

Again, you don't understand what the proof of work is, yet you jump to an assumption that it's nonsense and all pie in the sky.

The proof of work is completion of the ledger and encrypted with a hash that carries a certain set of requirements. This takes huge computational power and thus is rewarded with bitcoin.

There is a value to this, as it costs a lot of money to do.
I know you are struggling with this, so let's just call an end to this Q&A, as you are not capable of taking onboard the most simple details.

At least you've stopped saying China banned bitcoin, so maybe there's hope.

Nah fuck it, let's drop it.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 20:44 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
Read this: Greater Fool Theory

Spot on. An honest fool would just own it, rather than spouting hilarious tosh about more than a tiny fraction of adopters caring about or even understanding the technobabble behind cryptodosh. But dat cognitive dissonance doe.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 21:07 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
An honest fool would just own it.

I firmly don't believe it is a bubble, that's why.
I would say wait until 1 BTC is worth over £1m, then I'd be concerned about it crashing down a heap.

At the moment, it's just following a set of laws pointed out to me a couple of years ago and those laws point to be being worth a lot more.
Yeah Economists have been bad mouthing bitcoin since 2009, I wonder if they really believe what they say, as they've been terribly wrong for so long.
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