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asta1
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Joined: 03 Dec 2015
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PostPosted: 20:52 - 01 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:


Only it turns out that the thieves didn't get anything. Laughing



Lol. I missed that. Wonder if they planned the heist when they were £16,000 each. Bit of a let down really.

No wait, I geddit. The comically long waiting period to finalise a transaction and the insane volatility are security features...
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Ste
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Joined: 01 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: 21:03 - 01 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
If you send coins with a the transaction fee set too low (or as zero) then after a week it'll be rejected and returned to your wallet so it wasn't that.

And there's stuff like this so you if you send coins with the trsnsaction fee too low, you can 'cancel' it rather than having to wait a week:

"A transaction's state is binary in regard to the current chain tip. Either it's confirmed and thus the money has changed hands, or it's unconfirmed and the money is still in the sender's wallet.

Thus if a transaction is never confirmed, the money is still the sender's. Since this question was asked, the block space demand has grown towards the block size limit, and most wallets have added support to rectify such a situation. For example Bitcoin Core added the calls -abandontransaction and -zapwallettxes, and will now activate Opt-in RBF with the coming 0.14.0 release, Electrum has added Opt-in RBF a while back already, Bitcoin Wallet app allows you to rescan the chain and thus forget unconfirmed transactions, etc.

However, one thing that you should keep in mind is that any signed transaction is still valid until at least one of the used inputs is spent in another transaction. Should the fee levels drop too much lower levels later, your transaction could still get confirmed if anyone rebroadcasts it. Therefore, after a failed transaction, you might want to make sure that you move all involved coins once."

I reckon he just chanced his luck with setting a tiny transaction fee and hoping that the thieves weren't planning on waiting around for the transaction to be confirmed on the network. Laughing
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Pjay
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Joined: 18 Jan 2016
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PostPosted: 21:32 - 01 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
asta1 wrote:
More developments:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-01/india-to-curb-cryptocurrency-use-while-embracing-blockchain

Don't know how big Crypto is in India anyway, but it potentially sets a concerning precedent.


That's another badly reported article regarding Bitcoin, from the mainstream media.

India have declared Bitcoin not legal tender. They want to look at ways of tackling illegal uses but they have no intention of banning legal use.

Direct from the Budget speech:
Distributed ledger system or the block chain technology allows organization of any chain of records or transactions without the need of intermediaries. The Government does not consider crypto-currencies legal tender or coin and will take all measures to eliminate use of these crypto-assets in financing illegitimate activities or as part of the payment system. The Government will explore use of block chain technology proactively for ushering in digital economy.

That is the entirety of talk on Crypto at the Budget. All reporting of anything more is bullshit.
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asta1
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PostPosted: 21:38 - 01 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pjay wrote:


Direct from the Budget speech:
The Government does not consider crypto-currencies legal tender or coin and will take all measures to eliminate use of these crypto-assets in financing illegitimate activities or as part of the payment system.


Badly reported or no, that seems pretty clear to me.

Not considered "legal tender", not considered "coin", "Will take all measures to eliminate use... as part of the payment system".

Like it or not, using crypto to buy anything at all within the sovereign territories of India will become illegal just as soon as they can write legislation to that effect.
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Pjay
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Joined: 18 Jan 2016
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PostPosted: 21:40 - 01 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
If you send coins with a the transaction fee set too low (or as zero) then after a week it'll be rejected and returned to your wallet so it wasn't that.

And there's stuff like this so you if you send coins with the trsnsaction fee too low, you can 'cancel' it rather than having to wait a week:

"A transaction's state is binary in regard to the current chain tip. Either it's confirmed and thus the money has changed hands, or it's unconfirmed and the money is still in the sender's wallet.

Thus if a transaction is never confirmed, the money is still the sender's. Since this question was asked, the block space demand has grown towards the block size limit, and most wallets have added support to rectify such a situation. For example Bitcoin Core added the calls -abandontransaction and -zapwallettxes, and will now activate Opt-in RBF with the coming 0.14.0 release, Electrum has added Opt-in RBF a while back already, Bitcoin Wallet app allows you to rescan the chain and thus forget unconfirmed transactions, etc.

However, one thing that you should keep in mind is that any signed transaction is still valid until at least one of the used inputs is spent in another transaction. Should the fee levels drop too much lower levels later, your transaction could still get confirmed if anyone rebroadcasts it. Therefore, after a failed transaction, you might want to make sure that you move all involved coins once."

I reckon he just chanced his luck with setting a tiny transaction fee and hoping that the thieves weren't planning on waiting around for the transaction to be confirmed on the network. Laughing


He could have sent them from an Exchange. A couple I use need you to verify any withdrawals with an email verification.
Sending them to the address they said to, then shown the transaction as pending, then they sod off thinking they have to wait a few hours and the jobs done.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 21:44 - 01 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
asta1 wrote:
"Will take all measures to eliminate use... as part of the payment system".


Did you miss out the word illegitimate on purpose?

The use of Crypto in India is legal.
Crypto isn't legal tender in the UK, we can still use it.

https://yourstory.com/2018/02/indian-blockchain-committee-head-clarifies-cryptocurrency-not-illegal-india/

For clarification...
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asta1
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Joined: 03 Dec 2015
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PostPosted: 21:51 - 01 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pjay wrote:

Direct from the Budget speech:
The Government does not consider crypto-currencies legal tender or coin and will take all measures to eliminate use of these crypto-assets in financing illegitimate activities or as part of the payment system.


Fine. There's the entire quote (emphasis my own). Note not "eliminate the use of these crypto-assets in financing illegitimate activities as a part of the the payent system" but "eliminate the use of these crypto-assets in financing illegitimate activities or as part of the payment system".

If the speaker quoted means what he says (which, I suppose he might not) then both the use of "crypto-assets" for "illegitimate activities" AND the use of the aforementioned assets as "part of the payment system", currently lawful or otherwise are about to be "eliminated".
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 21:53 - 01 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Read the link I posted, there is clarification there.
India are not banning their legal use.
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asta1
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Joined: 03 Dec 2015
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PostPosted: 21:56 - 01 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pjay wrote:
Read the link I posted, there is clarification there.
India are not banning their legal use.


I've read it, closest statement I can find to support your statement is:

"The payments system includes a lot of things like the settlement mechanism, and the banking system. In recent times, digital wallets and other payment mechanisms have been added to the entire scenario.

What the Finance Minister might be saying is that cryptocurrency is not considered to be a part of these payment systems. Similarly, gold is not part of a payment system, but people still barter assets like gold for goods, as long as both parties record the transaction. It is an asset barter transaction.

There is a little subjectivity on the matter. Can an individual swap cryptocurrency for another cryptocurrency?

We have to wait for clarification on what the Finance Minister meant when he mentioned payment system"

Which is basically this chap saying he doesn't know any more than we do. Is it allowed as a 'barter' transaction? Well, there is "little subjectivity on the matter" and he will need to "wait for clarification on what the Finance Minister meant when he mentioned payment system".

Not exactly a clear and concise ruling that then...
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Pjay
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Joined: 18 Jan 2016
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PostPosted: 22:08 - 01 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
asta1 wrote:
Pjay wrote:
Read the link I posted, there is clarification there.
India are not banning their legal use.


I've read it, closest statement I can find to support your statement is:

"The payments system includes a lot of things like the settlement mechanism, and the banking system. In recent times, digital wallets and other payment mechanisms have been added to the entire scenario.

What the Finance Minister might be saying is that cryptocurrency is not considered to be a part of these payment systems. Similarly, gold is not part of a payment system, but people still barter assets like gold for goods, as long as both parties record the transaction. It is an asset barter transaction.

There is a little subjectivity on the matter. Can an individual swap cryptocurrency for another cryptocurrency?

We have to wait for clarification on what the Finance Minister meant when he mentioned payment system"

Which is basically this chap saying he doesn't know any more than we do. Is it allowed as a 'barter' transaction? Well, there is "little subjectivity on the matter" and he will need to "wait for clarification on what the Finance Minister meant when he mentioned payment system".

Not exactly a clear and concise ruling that then...


So you ignore the fact that he has said they are not banning legal use or exchanges?

Fair enough.
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Rogerborg
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Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 22:48 - 01 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
So, did the BTC price plummet because India are banning it, or because most Bitcoin speculators are idiots? Thinking
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Ste
Not Work Safe



Joined: 01 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: 22:57 - 01 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Price crashing after a high has happened before, is happening now and will happen again in the future.

The pertinent question is just how low is the price going to go this time before the next period of sustained growth

I notice that the "become a bitcoin millionaire" adverts on the facebooks have stopped. Laughing
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Sload
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Joined: 28 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: 23:01 - 01 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
I notice that the "become a bitcoin millionaire" adverts on the facebooks have stopped. Laughing


I think all crypto has been banned? Read that somewhere I think.
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 23:04 - 01 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
XMR is at a good buying price Wink
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The Artist
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PostPosted: 00:56 - 02 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Right I have found proof bitcoin is a ponzi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTf5j9LDObk
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asta1
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Joined: 03 Dec 2015
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PostPosted: 13:38 - 02 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pjay wrote:


So you ignore the fact that he has said they are not banning legal use or exchanges?

Fair enough.


Show me where he says they aren't banning legal use? I see much prevarification and very little firm commitment either way. Also depends on what you define as legal 'use'.

Seems, as you say, that exchanges will remain open, so you can use a local currency to buy crypto still, but it seems very clear indeed (assuming what he says is in fact what he means and... politician) that using crypto-coins as a currency, as a token of exchange for goods and services within India will be banned.

So, they're allowing crypto speculation (you can buy and sell the coins for the local currency), but you can't then use the coins as currency. That is a legal use for crypto certainly, but it isn't the main use for a 'currency', if of course you view crypto coins as such.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 13:46 - 02 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
asta1 wrote:
Pjay wrote:


So you ignore the fact that he has said they are not banning legal use or exchanges?

Fair enough.


Show me where he says they aren't banning legal use? I see much prevarification and very little firm commitment either way. Also depends on what you define as legal 'use'.

Seems, as you say, that exchanges will remain open, so you can use a local currency to buy crypto still, but it seems very clear indeed (assuming what he says is in fact what he means and... politician) that using crypto-coins as a currency, as a token of exchange for goods and services within India will be banned.

So, they're allowing crypto speculation (you can buy and sell the coins for the local currency), but you can't then use the coins as currency. That is a legal use for crypto certainly, but it isn't the main use for a 'currency', if of course you view crypto coins as such.


You're mistaking being legal tender with being legal to use as a currency.
Crypto are not legal tender in the UK, we can still use them as currency. In fact, the only place they are legal tender is Japan.

India have no plans to make crypto illegal. The article I pointed you to explains that the payments system also bans gold. It's not illegal to use or trade gold in India.

Let's just leave it at that, as you think they are banning and I don't.
If they do indeed ban crypto outright, you will be right. If they dont then I am. Your constant reliance on a very small and ambiguous sentence is draining my will to explore this any further.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 14:16 - 02 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pjay wrote:
the only place they are legal tender is Japan.

If I'm fined by a Japanese court for a cultural misunderstanding with a schoolgirl, I can pay in BTC?

Interesting, if true.




























Of course, it's not true.

No, really, it's not.
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Last edited by Rogerborg on 14:19 - 02 Feb 2018; edited 1 time in total
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 14:18 - 02 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
Pjay wrote:
the only place they are legal tender is Japan.

If I'm fined by a Japanese court for a cultural misunderstanding with a schoolgirl, I can pay in BTC?

Interesting, if true.


I imagine so, they have made it completely legal to use in day to day transactions. You can even opt to be paid in Bitcoin there.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 18:45 - 02 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Leaving aside the fact that it's not legal tender, I'll just go ahead and have a good chuckle at the thought of Kyocera-san advertising their salaries in BTC rather than Yen.

That'll be the measure of when it's a real currency.
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 18:48 - 02 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Anyone buy Monero today at £130ish?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:50 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Facebook bans[*] crypto.

Lloyds bans[*] crypto.

UK and EU to ban[*] crypto.

Deffo buy into funny money that relies completely on a shared delusion in order to be worth anything. What could go wrong?


[*] I've simplified the situation somewhat for the benefit of crypto-speculators, given their demonstrable inability to comprehend or react rationally to nuances in news such as India "banning" crypto.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 10:00 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Those are all very positive things for the growth of Crypto.

Great news indeed.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:19 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
https://i.imgur.com/XUyTZHY.png
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 10:31 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Regulations are a good thing in any market.
Large investment institutions have been wary of entering the cryptospace, due to the lack of regulations. There is also the upside of putting regulations in place to protect the idiots amongst the general populace.
The surge of incoming money from get rich quick ads on social media was never going to end well. I for one hated them, google are still running them in their adsense program, hopefully they will ban them too.

People should also never buy bitcoins on their Credit Cards, that's a moronic things to do and I applaud Lloyds for banning it, others need to follow suit. The regulations are in place to protect the public from themselves and to curb money laundering. Once all of the dust settles, crypto will be in a position to grow in a more sustainable manner. Booms always end in busts. It's nothing new.

I'm more positive about the future of Bitcoin with every new regulation. It clarifies the route to success.
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