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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:43 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, once all of crypto's advantages are dealt with by banning regulating, centralising, de-anonymising, tracking and taxing it, it'll be just like a real currency, apart from the usurious transaction fees and completion times measured in days.

That's when it'll really take off, right?
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 10:49 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Sure, once all of crypto's advantages are dealt with by banning regulating, centralising, de-anonymising, tracking and taxing it, it'll be just like a real currency, apart from the usurious transaction fees and completion times measured in days.

That's when it'll really take off, right?


You're assuming there that all transactions take days.
I just sent £2k of NEO from an exchange to my wallet on the blockchain, it took less than 4 minutes and cost me a grand total of 30p

Bitcoin is slow and expensive, but that is being dealt with when the lightning network goes live. I'm sure I've been over this before.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:31 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:
Bitcoin is slow and expensive, but that is being dealt with when the lightning network goes live. I'm sure I've been over this before.

Yes, you said, while saying you wouldn't say it again, but here we are.

Since you've chosen to come out of purda, this question remains unanswered.

Rogerborg wrote:
Is [lightning] the one that requires fronting the amount that you might want to transfer (and wait 12,000 minutes), then sending (or not sending) it in a sputtering splatter of private IOUs, then finally publishing the net total (and wait 12,000 minutes)?

Fancy enlightning me?
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 11:42 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Is [lightning] the one that requires fronting the amount that you might want to transfer (and wait 12,000 minutes), then sending (or not sending) it in a sputtering splatter of private IOUs, then finally publishing the net total (and wait 12,000 minutes)?
Fancy enlightning me?


I don't know where you get your mis-information from, but it's a great source of amusement at least.

Lighting basically bunches up the transactions off-chain and then puts them onto the chain once they reach a determined level, as one big transaction.

If I were to send you 100 Bitcoin on the Lightning Network, you would get the funds very fast, and at a fraction of the cost to me. It wont appear on the blockchain until the transaction is bunched up and sent off.

This speeds up end to end transactions (as they are offchain) and will in turn speed up the BTC main blockchain, due to less use.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:53 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:
basically

Dissembling ahoy.

Pjay wrote:
bunches up the transactions off-chain and then puts them onto the chain once they reach a determined level, as one big transaction.

Yes that's the last two thirds of what I wrote. I understand that, since I wrote it.

What about the first part? The "funding transaction"? Pre-committing everything that you might want to pay later, up front?

Did you not know about that, or are you in denial about it? Thinking
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 11:57 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Pjay wrote:
basically

Dissembling ahoy.

Pjay wrote:
bunches up the transactions off-chain and then puts them onto the chain once they reach a determined level, as one big transaction.

Yes that's the last two thirds of what I wrote. I understand that, since I wrote it.

What about the first part? The "funding transaction"? Pre-committing everything that you might want to pay later, up front?

Did you not know about that, or are you in denial about it? Thinking


You do not have to preload, someone else can. You can use someone elses active payment channel for your transaction.

These will be escrow services with large amounts of BTC to preload.

If I send you 100 BTC, I don't need to preload anything, the network will find the cheapest open route off-chain to pay you the 100 BTC.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 12:17 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a bit late for Facebook to ban the get rich quick adverts. Laughing
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:34 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:
You do not have to preload, someone else can. You can use someone elses active payment channel for your transaction.

Neat, so all you have to do is to find a third party who's already involved in your private peer-to-peer transaction?


Pjay wrote:
If I send you 100 BTC, I don't need to preload anything, the network will find the cheapest open route off-chain to pay you the 100 BTC.

Like magical money ants, OK.

Question. If you - sorry, your escrow service - "pays" me 100 BTC in a private transaction that's not committed to the blickchain yet, in what sense do I have it?

I can't send or spend it anywhere else, since it's not on the blickchain. I can't even sent it back to you. I can in principle send it back to the third party, if they have something that I'd rather have instead of some private-imaginary BTC.

Bitcoin Bank of Amazon? Thinking
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 12:44 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Neat, so all you have to do is to find a third party who's already involved in your private peer-to-peer transaction?

Nope, the network takes care of it.

Rogerborg wrote:

Question. If you - sorry, your escrow service - "pays" me 100 BTC in a private transaction that's not committed to the blickchain yet, in what sense do I have it?


All transactions are going to be this way (unless you are stupid enough to want to pay the main blockchain fees).

Once they are sent to you, you can use them in other transactions.
There will almost certainly be a time where all BTC are owned publicly on the lightning network and not on the Blockchain. The blockchain will be faster and less congested as a result and just be a ledger of lightning blocks.
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 13:18 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, Loyds banking group will not allow the purchase of BTC with their credit cards. Apparently they're "concerned" their customers will get into debt. WTF?. Can we presume Loyds will also stop any purchases made with online casinos? Maybe they should police their customers alcohol purchases as well?
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 13:22 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ribenapigeon wrote:
So, Loyds banking group will not allow the purchase of BTC with their credit cards. Apparently they're "concerned" their customers will get into debt. WTF?. Can we presume Loyds will also stop any purchases made with online casinos? Maybe they should police their customers alcohol purchases as well?


With credit card purchases, you are not buying the item, the Card issuer is. You are then paying them back for purchasing the item.
The card issuer has a right to decline any purchase they do not want to make.

Quite rightly too.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/23/ban-credit-cards-for-online-gambling-says-government-review
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 13:40 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:
Ribenapigeon wrote:
So, Loyds banking group will not allow the purchase of BTC with their credit cards. Apparently they're "concerned" their customers will get into debt. WTF?. Can we presume Loyds will also stop any purchases made with online casinos? Maybe they should police their customers alcohol purchases as well?


With credit card purchases, you are not buying the item, the Card issuer is. You are then paying them back for purchasing the item.
The card issuer has a right to decline any purchase they do not want to make.

Quite rightly too.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/23/ban-credit-cards-for-online-gambling-says-government-review


Im aware of why they are able to do this with credit cards and not other payment methods. Im suspicious about the motives. Online gambling has been around at least as long as Bitcoin. Accounts with Bookies have existed for ever. So if they can be as proactive in their "concern" for customer welfare regarding Bitcoin they've had plenty of time to take action on other risky spending. They could for instance refuse to provide banking services for gambling companies or other industries of questionable ethics. I wonder who those Monks at Buckfast bank with?
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Triton Thrasher
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PostPosted: 13:44 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:
It clarifies the route to success.


I'm going to use that for fuck-ups at work.
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The Artist
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PostPosted: 13:47 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ribenapigeon wrote:

Im aware of why they are able to do this with credit cards and not other payment methods. Im suspicious about the motives. Online gambling has been around at least as long as Bitcoin. Accounts with Bookies have existed for ever. So if they can be as proactive in their "concern" for customer welfare regarding Bitcoin they've had plenty of time to take action on other risky spending. They could for instance refuse to provide banking services for gambling companies or other industries of questionable ethics. I wonder who those Monks at Buckfast bank with?


You make it sound like the banks give a shit where you spend your money. Laughing

All they care about is holding your money so they can make it and in order to do so, they need to comply with regulations which is what is scaring them right now.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 14:06 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banning buying bitcoin with credit cards isn't an entirely bad thing. But what's more significant is that they're not banning buying bitcoin with a debit card or by bank transfer.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 14:09 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
Neat, so all you have to do is to find a third party who's already involved in your private peer-to-peer transaction?

Nope, the network takes care of it.

By what mechanism? Is it so sufficiently advanced that it's indistinguishable from magic?

Pjay wrote:
All transactions are going to be this way

What way? Through private transactions within third party escrow transactions?

Pjay wrote:
Once they are sent to you, you can use them in other transactions.

How can you, since fourth parties outside your private three-way blickchain has any basis for trusting it?

Pjay wrote:
There will almost certainly be a time where all BTC are owned publicly on the lightning network and not on the Blockchain.

Owned publicly inside private blickchains and not on published blickchains? Eh?


Pjay wrote:
The blockchain will be faster and less congested as a result and just be a ledger of lightning blocks.

Again: until a private blickchain is published on the public blickchain, why would anyone outside of that private chain trust the transactions inside it?
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 14:13 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought Facebook has banned ICO ads? I've seen an ad for the ICO for 'the new Uber'. Rolling Eyes
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 14:14 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Questions


I am pretty sure the people that are working on it, are smart enough for it to work just fine.

I'm sure you're just being a troll now.

If you really want to learn about it, you can read up all about it. I am not offering tuition on blockchain.
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iooi
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PostPosted: 14:16 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ribenapigeon wrote:
So, Loyds ban

king group will not allow the purchase of BTC with their credit cards. Apparently they're "concerned" their customers will get into debt. WTF?. Can we presume Loyds will also stop any purchases made with online casinos? Maybe they should police their customers alcohol purchases as well?


Well given the value of a bitcoin has dropped over 50% in less than 2 months....

A credit card should not be used for any gambling or speculation related products.
Time the regulator stepped in on this one.

I'm sick of hearing people moan that I was advised to invest money in this money making scam, when cold called. Then saying I was miss sold and want my money back.....

Far too many greedy people out there. That want all the profit and none of the risk. But fail to take even basic steps to protect themselves.
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 14:29 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:


I'm sure you're just being a troll now.



Shocked
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 14:42 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:
I am pretty sure the people that are working on it, are smart enough for it to work just fine

Your faith is touching, but it may be less compelling than you think, given that you're unable to answer technical questions.

Pjay wrote:
I'm sure you're just being a troll now.

Now?


Pjay wrote:
If you really want to learn about it, you can read up all about it.

I have, which is why I'm asking you where I've got it wrong. Where am I getting it wrong?


Pjay wrote:
I am not offering tuition on blockchain.

That's... probably for the best.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 14:57 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Your faith is touching, but it may be less compelling than you think, given that you're unwilling to answer technical questions

FTFY
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 15:12 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:
I could pole vault to the moon if I so chose, but I feel no need to demonstrate it.

FTFY.

Just the cliff notes then: when will private blickchains make Bitcoin usable as a day to day currency for buying a pint of bread?
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 18:40 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im going to launch Trollcoin. Any buyers?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 20:48 - 05 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ribenapigeon wrote:
Im going to launch Trollcoin. Any buyers?

That was quick!

https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/trollcoin/
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