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Hex bolt with washer instead of Flange bolts

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koolio
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Joined: 08 Apr 2011
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PostPosted: 23:13 - 03 Jul 2013    Post subject: Hex bolt with washer instead of Flange bolts Reply with quote
Need to replace some snapped engine crank bolts, they are flanged non serrated like the one below.

Trouble is I'm finding it very difficult to find flanged head hex bolts in zinc at a reasonable price they come out very expensive also I cannot find any longer ones.

Is it allowed to use a standard hex bolt with a washer instead of a flanged bolt like the one below?

https://www.lrseries.com/resources/user/f66c08c8151e2a2a514d1e3cd1662c0fb4db7f3c/FC108247-BOLT-FLANGED-HE.jpg
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koolio
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PostPosted: 08:50 - 04 Jul 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sorry what I meant was crankcase bolts, I personally don't see how a hex bolt with a flat washer is any different to a flanged hex bolt.
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stinkwheel
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Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 11:05 - 04 Jul 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
No problem for crankcase bolts.

It's one place I'd even consider using stainless because they are seeing virtually no load. Usually in the region of 8ft/lb if you go by torques, that's one finger on a spanner.

What you'll find though is that those bolts are probably M6 and a standard M6 hex has a 10mm head. The flange bolts will have an 8mm hex head. Upshot is, use a standard hex bolt and you won't be able to get a socket in the gap to do it up.

As such, I'd be tempted to use socket-head capscrews instead.
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koolio
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PostPosted: 16:32 - 04 Jul 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Vincent wrote:
koolio wrote:
Sorry what I meant was crankcase bolts, I personally don't see how a hex bolt with a flat washer is any different to a flanged hex bolt.


I think that the size of the flange would affect the torque values. Obviously only important where bolts have to be torqued down in the first place.


Yes it does affect the torque value my manual shows a slightly different range for M6 flanged and for hex, although at 8 ft lbs you cover both ranges.

Stink my only concern about using ss bolts anywhere on alu engines is bi metal corrosion.
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LongJohn22
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PostPosted: 22:07 - 04 Jul 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
A smear of copper slip will prevent corrosion between the two materials.
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cb1rocket
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PostPosted: 08:29 - 05 Jul 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
LongJohn22 wrote:
A smear of copper slip will prevent corrosion between the two materials.


Lithium or graphite grease, not copper slip, it's abrasive!
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BTTD
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PostPosted: 10:11 - 05 Jul 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
cb1rocket wrote:
Lithium or graphite grease, not copper slip, it's abrasive!


That's the first time I've ever heard that. Confused
We are talking about putting copper slip on bolt threads right?
Or am I missing something. Genuinely confused.
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koolio
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PostPosted: 11:04 - 05 Jul 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
LongJohn22 wrote:
A smear of copper slip will prevent corrosion between the two materials.


I understand this is what is commonly done and I do do this even on non ss bolts, trouble is I'm not sure how effective it is in the long term. I'm not sure Lithium will work and don't want to try it, but maybe the graphite grease is effective, but unsure about the last two.

Quote:
That's the first time I've ever heard that. Confused
We are talking about putting copper slip on bolt threads right?
Or am I missing something. Genuinely confused.


Absolutely, it's done all the time in pro workshops, should really be a standard practice regardless of bolt type.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 11:19 - 05 Jul 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
cb1rocket wrote:

Lithium or graphite grease, not copper slip, it's abrasive!


Abrasion can only occurr in the presence of movement.

If you lie still on a tarmac road, you aren't going to get roadrash, no matter how long you stay there.

Copperslip is purpose designed to prevent fittings from seizing.

You wouldn't want to put it anywhere that's seeing movement and requires grease as a lubricant but that's not what it's for, it's an anti-corrosion, anti-seizing compound.

As such it is entirely appropriate to use it on crankcase bolts.
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koolio
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PostPosted: 16:42 - 05 Jul 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
cb1rocket wrote:

Lithium or graphite grease, not copper slip, it's abrasive!


Abrasion can only occurr in the presence of movement.

If you lie still on a tarmac road, you aren't going to get roadrash, no matter how long you stay there.

Copperslip is purpose designed to prevent fittings from seizing.

You wouldn't want to put it anywhere that's seeing movement and requires grease as a lubricant but that's not what it's for, it's an anti-corrosion, anti-seizing compound.

As such it is entirely appropriate to use it on crankcase bolts.


Stink I don't know why someone would bring up a query about copper slip on bolts and abrasion, when that is exactly one of its uses!

Have you had any experience with leaving ss bolts for a long period of time in aluminium with copper grease?
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 17:44 - 05 Jul 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
koolio wrote:

Have you had any experience with leaving ss bolts for a long period of time in aluminium with copper grease?


Well. The timing case bolts on my Enfield are stainless and going into really crappy alloy. They've been in there since 2007.

The thing to remember is the relative quantities of stainless and alloy we're talking about too. In this case, there is a big lump of alloy with some small bits of stainless. Any electrochemical corrosion that's going to occurr will be spread out over a large area of alloy and so is negligeable.

If you were using alloy fittings into a big block of stainless, I'd expect the alloy to disappear in short order (so if you use alloy rivetts to hold a stainless plate on, it'll fall off again pretty quickly).

Also worth remembering is that this type of corrosion can't occurr unless there is a conductive liquid (eg, salty water) bridging the gap between the two metals.

One thing I find interesting is that titanium is even worse than stainless for causing electrochemical corrosion but you never seem to see anyone twisting their face when someone uses titanium fittings. Which goes to show how powerful the "tart factor" is.
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“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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cb1rocket
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PostPosted: 21:22 - 05 Jul 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Apparently from what I have learned is that copper grease eats into alloys and accelerates the corrosion!
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Bezzer
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PostPosted: 21:40 - 05 Jul 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
cb1rocket wrote:
Apparently from what I have learned is that copper grease eats into alloys and accelerates the corrosion!


You're on about galvanic/electrolytic corrosion, alloy and stainless are at either end of the table and therefore prone to react and corrode. Copper is midway-ish between the two and therefore helps both out to prevent it.
But that said it isn't like it's pure copper it's a weak solution in an oil/grease base that has been used for donkeys years with no real problems as a high temperature anti -seize compound, there are more modern compounds available but copper works and is cheap.
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LongJohn22
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PostPosted: 21:43 - 05 Jul 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
cb1rocket wrote:
Apparently from what I have learned is that copper grease eats into alloys and accelerates the corrosion!

Maybe you heard wrong, I've never had a problem in a considerable number of years.
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