Engine Problems - VERY LOUD Rattling/Knocking!!

Richardandsam · Two Stroke Sniffer Joined: 06 Jul 2013 Karma :

Ive had to have the engine out of the bike twice so far in the past month cause stupidly I ran it on Halfords own Part Syn 10w40 CAR Oil, and its developed a VERY LOUD rattle or knocking if you like.

Ive done all the Valve Clearances, BRAND NEW Clutch Plates/Friction Plates/Damper Plate/Basket/Pressure Plate/Springs, Changed to New Motul Oil, Champion Filter, Clutch Cable.

I originally thought that it might be the whole clutch or the gearbox that had given up or maybe even a simple fix like a bearing that needed to be replaced, but it seems not.

The only thing that I haven't changed is the Clutch Actuator Rod in the bottom of the Clutch Casing, Needle bearings for such or the rod that comes out of the Pressure plate as these all seem spot on with no free play.

Ive done the screwdriver trick all over the engine and determined that its definitley coming from the right side lower of the engine tho.
So I dropped the engine out and split the casings in two. What did I find?

Well, the Starter Gear Ring behind the Alternator Magnet is slightly warped but not enough to cause this racket! The gearbox cogs, bearings, dogs, shafts all seem fine, and like I said above, I changed the WHOLE Clutch assembly to rule that out.
While I was in there with the block upside down on the bench, I noticed that No:3 Lower Crank Bearing Shell had a very small chip out of it, but after talking to a Kawasaki main dealer they say its not enough to cause this racket! So im back to square one!!

Symptoms:

Listen too and watch the video below.

Rattles VERY LOUDLY all the time in idle with Clutch in or out.

Increases with revs when out of gear.

Rattles like this when on the bike but as soon as you hit 3000 to 3500 rpm under load in gear it goes!

So, took it back to main dealer this morning who now reckons that it could be a Big End Shell gone awry on No: 3 or 4 and that the sound is transmitting. Is that a possibility?

Before this lot started, the bike was rumbling and vibrating like a goodun with the car oil in it, in and out of gear and that's what lead me to believe that id destroyed the clutch after realizing my mistake with the bloody oil!

So now im sat here with the bike in the back garden, missing all this good weather, in pain cause of an earlier accident, and getting mad cause the bloody bike is turning to scrap before my eyes and winding me up by nearly pulling my hair out with the agro from it.

Here's the YouTube Video link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2NamHeXgYg

Can you diagnose the problem or give some pointers or ideas please??

52,000 with new clock mileage.

Never run it without oil!

Im totally stumped! So you reckon its loose bearings on con rods or crank bearings?

Been told these can be done with lump still in bike by dropping sump, etc?

KWAKA mechanic told me to me to drop sump and have a feel at the bottom of the con rods by the crank for any looseness there. Reckons its easier than dropping the engine again.

I actually don't mind dropping IF i HAVE to, but what does scare me is if i take the head off is retiming the thing!

Any further help before i bite the bullet tomorrow?

Blau Zedong · Banned Joined: 26 Jun 2006 Karma :

It's scrap.

Buy another engine.

Learn 2 check oil.
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P. · Red Rocket Joined: 14 Feb 2008 Karma :

I would drop the oil out of that, then remove the sump and check for metal. Chances are there is a fair bit of metal in there. That sounds very "metal on metal" not too different from old CBR which has lunched 2 cam bearings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvwjwYJY_u4

Richardandsam · Two Stroke Sniffer Joined: 06 Jul 2013 Karma :

Pete. · Super Spammer Joined: 22 Aug 2006 Karma :

I agree with Bluex5, that engine is wrecked. I also agree with Paddy, drop the oil out and check it for particles.

I agree with the next poster in advance....unless they post something I don't agree with of course...
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132.9mph off and walked away. Gear is good, gear is good, gear is very very good Very Happy

P. · Red Rocket Joined: 14 Feb 2008 Karma :

If I saw any metal in the oil when I wasn't in the "run in" process, I'd be very worried. That said the only time I've seen oil in the sump/oil was when the cam bearings were lunched on the CBR and when Iains mains decided to exit via the sump.

pinkyfloyd · Super Spammer Joined: 20 Jul 2010 Karma :

No mechanic by my first thoughts was cam chain tensioner failure. Not sure if the Kwaks have the same issue but on some Honda's it was a serious issue. The chain would skip a cog or 2 and knock the timing out resulting in bent valves etc. Cheaper to replace the engine than fix. The fact that its making that noise and you are still reving it screams of more damage being done.
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Richardandsam · Two Stroke Sniffer Joined: 06 Jul 2013 Karma :

stinkwheel · Bovine Proctologist Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :

I would surmise it was nothing whatsoever to do with the type of oil you used which exceeds the specification for any motorcycle I've ever seen. The only possible problem which has ever been mooted that using that oil over a motorcycle oil could cause is some clutch slip due to friction modifiers. Friction modifiers are going to make it even less likely to lunch your engine.

I've been using Halfords semi-synthetic car oil in my VFR for years now.

Drop the oil, take the filter off and cut it open. That's where any metal particles will have landed up.

I would also be checking the plugs and compression to make sure there isn't a duff pot slaving off the others.

Kawasakis can get unreasonably clattery and noisy when they're out of balance.

Here's a recording of my GPZ500 I made years ago (so it's short and not all that good quality). The clattering is a combination of primary drive noise and it being out of balance, nothing wrong with the engine itself. Ten minutes with a vacuum guage sorted it right out.
https://www.bikechatforums.com//files/gpzengine.wav

EDIT: Ok, so it's not that, was typing while the pictures were being posted. Some of those bits look painted? Which came first, the bits clogging the oil pickup or the engine failure?
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Richardandsam · Two Stroke Sniffer Joined: 06 Jul 2013 Karma :

P. · Red Rocket Joined: 14 Feb 2008 Karma :

That is a lot of metal Shocked

Richardandsam · Two Stroke Sniffer Joined: 06 Jul 2013 Karma :

stinkwheel · Bovine Proctologist Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :

Those bits aren't magnetic are they?
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

Timmeh · World Chat Champion Joined: 01 Nov 2006 Karma :

Is it just me or do your gears look a bit knackered?
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Richardandsam · Two Stroke Sniffer Joined: 06 Jul 2013 Karma :

Gear box is absolutley spot on, no problems there.

Most of what you see in the sump is Black Gasket Seal. But some metal thats NOT magnetic!!

Pete. · Super Spammer Joined: 22 Aug 2006 Karma :

I agree with Stinkwheel - your issue has nothing to do with the type of oil you used.

You've had the big-ends off and found a bearing shell chipped? Well, that can't happen with it installed, so my guess is that someone has previously had those bearings out and mixed them up so now your clearances are all shot to hell.

I have a friend who went out on his Gpz600r with a group of mates on faster bikes and in trying to keep up with them he ovalled the little-ends. Similar engine, might be worth checking.
____________________
a.k.a 'Geri'

132.9mph off and walked away. Gear is good, gear is good, gear is very very good Very Happy

Richardandsam · Two Stroke Sniffer Joined: 06 Jul 2013 Karma :

Hmmmm......Seems like ive got a job on my hands next week then?

Any easy way out or things that should or shouldnt be done?

What should i do then, find the one pot thats had its bearings done or do the lot?

Should I replace ALL the clutch and gearbox bearings while im in there too to be on the safe side?

What does worry me is when I take the head off, is getting the pistons and rings back into the cylinders and also the timing side of it.....Any help there?

Everything else im pretty much up to speed with.

Pete. · Super Spammer Joined: 22 Aug 2006 Karma :

wilz1234 · Trackday Trickster Joined: 14 Jul 2010 Karma :

Any top end damage? Is there any play in the top ends.
Sounds like a bottom end bearing to me, but could be valve trouble

A replacement engine will be around the same cost wise as a full bearing and gasket replacement. Just stick a new lump in there
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Richardandsam · Two Stroke Sniffer Joined: 06 Jul 2013 Karma :

m3-paul · Spanner Monkey Joined: 03 Feb 2009 Karma :

False economy trying to repair that. It looks well past its sell by date now. The money you would have spent will be better used putting it against a known good engine.

With all the time and money spent on tearing it down, diagnosing, rebuilding and parts it could have been back on the road with no worries about the engine lunching itself again.
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Richardandsam · Two Stroke Sniffer Joined: 06 Jul 2013 Karma :

Richardandsam · Two Stroke Sniffer Joined: 06 Jul 2013 Karma :

Anyone local to me (Northampton) want to come and have a look/listen for me please?

wilz1234 · Trackday Trickster Joined: 14 Jul 2010 Karma :

Do each of the conrods turn nicely (smoothly but with no play) against the crank?

Does the crank turn nicely in the main bearings?
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Richardandsam · Two Stroke Sniffer Joined: 06 Jul 2013 Karma :