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What if i ventured off a green lane?

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nathan k
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Joined: 28 Mar 2012
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PostPosted: 23:59 - 19 Aug 2013    Post subject: What if i ventured off a green lane? Reply with quote
Went for my first bit of green laning today, and i'm bloody shattered!
Along the route was loads of trails which i'm pretty sure werent green lanes but looked like good fun...i'm just wondering what happens if your caught off the lane itself? I thought you get the bike crushed but that might be off road bikes on the road i'm thinking of.

Just wondering Laughing
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Tungtvann
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PostPosted: 00:35 - 20 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
If you're insured etc and everything is legal, then at most, I think it would be a case of trespassing or similar.
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yen_powell
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Joined: 22 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: 06:18 - 20 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Trespass isn't an offence as such, it's a lawsuite by the owner of the land against you for damages. The damages to the land are likely to be minimal (if even measurable, say you rode along a concrete road for instance, not even a mark left), it's the court costs that make you go ouch.

When me and two friends were sued for trespass our defence was that it was actually a right of way. We never lost (or won) and we still got hit with initial costs of 70k by the landowner. This was reduced to about 30k after arguments in court.

The place we were arguing over was proven to be a legal highway by the government inspector later on (the case was brought forward by about 20 years by our time in court) but the landowner appealed with a top barrister and got it downgraded to a bridleway.
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thx1138
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PostPosted: 06:33 - 20 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
given as agricultural land sells for tuppence happen an acre, what did you do to it to warrant £70k? Laughing sprinkle uranium in your wake?
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weasley
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Joined: 16 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 06:34 - 20 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
From the Highway Code:

Quote:
You MUST NOT drive on or over a pavement, footpath or bridleway except to gain lawful access to property, or in the case of an emergency.
Laws HA 1835 sect 72 & RTA 1988 sect 34


You may be breaking laws covered by the Highways Act and/or Road Traffic Act if you use footpaths or bridleways, which any 'trail' has a good chance of being.
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nathan k
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Joined: 28 Mar 2012
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PostPosted: 09:11 - 20 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
weasley wrote:
From the Highway Code:

Quote:
You MUST NOT drive on or over a pavement, footpath or bridleway except to gain lawful access to property, or in the case of an emergency.
Laws HA 1835 sect 72 & RTA 1988 sect 34


You may be breaking laws covered by the Highways Act and/or Road Traffic Act if you use footpaths or bridleways, which any 'trail' has a good chance of being.


Ahh, yes they would indeed be foot paths then. Said land would be owned by the forest comission. From the research i've been doing, the common punishment would be a S59 warning which worries me a little, as i've had one before. i was riding down a road, passed a horse which freaked out. The women phoned the police and bam, instant S59 and I couldn't even defend myself (I even slowed and was on the right hand side)
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yen_powell
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Joined: 22 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: 11:43 - 20 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
thx1138 wrote:
given as agricultural land sells for tuppence happen an acre, what did you do to it to warrant £70k? Laughing sprinkle uranium in your wake?
The original claim was for his legal costs (top barristers aren't cheap) and his costs for historical research to disprove our historical research.

One of the main reasons the costs were lowered was because we weren't the first people he'd tried to sue. He had a failed case previously on the same lane and tried to offload the research cost from that on to us.


The first case failed for quite a funny reason. It was a landrover he'd stopped, the driver refused to give his name so the land owner traced his details through the DVLA. He then took the named owner to court for trespass. The named owner let it get all the way there and only then dropped the bombshell that he wasn't the driver that day. He was able to show this to be true. The landowner had to then drop the case, you can't just swap names on the writ.
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nathan k
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PostPosted: 12:53 - 20 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
yen_powell wrote:
thx1138 wrote:
given as agricultural land sells for tuppence happen an acre, what did you do to it to warrant £70k? Laughing sprinkle uranium in your wake?
The original claim was for his legal costs (top barristers aren't cheap) and his costs for historical research to disprove our historical research.

One of the main reasons the costs were lowered was because we weren't the first people he'd tried to sue. He had a failed case previously on the same lane and tried to offload the research cost from that on to us.


The first case failed for quite a funny reason. It was a landrover he'd stopped, the driver refused to give his name so the land owner traced his details through the DVLA. He then took the named owner to court for trespass. The named owner let it get all the way there and only then dropped the bombshell that he wasn't the driver that day. He was able to show this to be true. The landowner had to then drop the case, you can't just swap names on the writ.

Hahaha poor bloke. I can't believe the extend of the legal costs though?! It seems just going to court is punishment enough these days...
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thx1138
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Joined: 06 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: 16:12 - 20 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
it was a joke not a documentary
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.....
Quote Me Happy



Joined: 15 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: 16:30 - 20 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
yen_powell, did the TRF pick up your legal bill?
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G
The Voice of Reason



Joined: 02 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 17:42 - 20 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tungtvann wrote:
If you're insured etc and everything is legal, then at most, I think it would be a case of trespassing or similar.

And sadly if you're not it's likely nothing, what with not being identifiable; yet they still try and discourage people doing it legally Rolling Eyes.
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nathan k
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PostPosted: 18:49 - 20 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
G wrote:
Tungtvann wrote:
If you're insured etc and everything is legal, then at most, I think it would be a case of trespassing or similar.

And sadly if you're not it's likely nothing, what with not being identifiable; yet they still try and discourage people doing it legally Rolling Eyes.

Mud tends to mess my plate up, Sadly Sad
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yen_powell
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Joined: 22 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: 19:47 - 20 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Joe wrote:
yen_powell, did the TRF pick up your legal bill?
They did indeed. I got my membership fee back a few thousand times over.
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.....
Quote Me Happy



Joined: 15 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: 19:48 - 20 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
yen_powell wrote:
Joe wrote:
yen_powell, did the TRF pick up your legal bill?
They did indeed. I got my membership fee back a few thousand times over.


That right there is reason to join your local TRF if you are riding the lanes.
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mysterious_rider
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Joined: 11 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: 23:49 - 20 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rob Fzs wrote:
thx1138 wrote:
given as agricultural land sells for tuppence happen an acre, what did you do to it to warrant £70k? Laughing sprinkle uranium in your wake?


you do know the going rate for an acre is 10 grand yes? and its about 500 quid an acre to reseed/ plough when some clever cunt thinks its funny to go off the track.

come on my land and i'll tow you off, police give no amount of shits either side you're on.


Utter rubbish.. unless its a hayabusa with a tractor rear tyre a bike is going to cause minimal damage to any mud. A frigging cow would cause more harm.



And besides, do it the easy way, just cover your plate up when you get on the track, and make haste if anyone follows you.

And if someone does squeal to the piggies, ride home and deny everything. Mr. Green Thumbs Up
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thx1138
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Joined: 06 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: 08:49 - 26 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
thx1138 wrote:
it was a joke not a documentary


However....

I did read in the Independent this Saturday, that the price of agricultural land has more then tripled in 10 years.

Shocked wtf!
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ninja_butler
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Joined: 19 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: 05:16 - 21 Sep 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
yen_powell wrote:
Trespass isn't an offence as such, it's a lawsuite by the owner of the land against you for damages. The damages to the land are likely to be minimal (if even measurable, say you rode along a concrete road for instance, not even a mark left), it's the court costs that make you go ouch.

When me and two friends were sued for trespass our defence was that it was actually a right of way. We never lost (or won) and we still got hit with initial costs of 70k by the landowner. This was reduced to about 30k after arguments in court.

The place we were arguing over was proven to be a legal highway by the government inspector later on (the case was brought forward by about 20 years by our time in court) but the landowner appealed with a top barrister and got it downgraded to a bridleway.



£70,000? I'm sorry, on what Planet did this happen? Unless you drove a tank through crops or killed an entire herd of cows that makes no sense.

Even £30,000 I don't find believable. Surely such a spurious case would be thrown out of court inside of an hour?
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yen_powell
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Joined: 22 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: 07:29 - 05 Oct 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
ninja_butler wrote:
yen_powell wrote:
Trespass isn't an offence as such, it's a lawsuite by the owner of the land against you for damages. The damages to the land are likely to be minimal (if even measurable, say you rode along a concrete road for instance, not even a mark left), it's the court costs that make you go ouch.

When me and two friends were sued for trespass our defence was that it was actually a right of way. We never lost (or won) and we still got hit with initial costs of 70k by the landowner. This was reduced to about 30k after arguments in court.

The place we were arguing over was proven to be a legal highway by the government inspector later on (the case was brought forward by about 20 years by our time in court) but the landowner appealed with a top barrister and got it downgraded to a bridleway.



£70,000? I'm sorry, on what Planet did this happen? Unless you drove a tank through crops or killed an entire herd of cows that makes no sense.

Even £30,000 I don't find believable. Surely such a spurious case would be thrown out of court inside of an hour?
A chunk of the costs were lawyers and barrister's fees, plus the fees for an expert witness. The reason the landowner brought this case was to show once and for all that the road we used was not public but all his.

The proper way was for the local highway authority to investigate historical and user evidence and pronounce the route's status. They have had to do this since 1949. They hadn't really bothered, despite it being a legal duty. They said it would be at least 20 years before they even started looking at it, maybe longer.

The landowner could get around this by taking someone to court for trespass. The defence against trespass is that the route was in fact a public carriageway. If he could prove in a court of law that this was not the case then he could fence it off, build over it anything he liked pretty much. But you can't do that with a public carriageway, we all have rights over it, which are protected by common law and acts of parliament.

We had to go and look at maps and papers dating back to the 1500s to show that until the age of the modern motor vehicle the route had been accepted by everyone as a public route for carriages. When modern roads got tarmacced in the early 20th century these lesser used ones were left out and eventually less and less people use them as they were intended. Then one day a landowner simply fences it off and it's gone unless someone stops them. BUT, (until recently) the law was 'Once a Highway, Always a Highway'. They can never simply cease to exist by falling into disuse. They can be lost through erosion, say a cliff collapsing or through a legal act to alter or remove them, but otherwise they are there forever.

One thing in our favour was that previous land owners had been claiming tax exemption on the route as you can't grow crops on a road. In the 1800s everyone had to pay tax to the church (tithes). This was based on the amount of land you owned. The tithe maps showed our route as a road so the landowner wouldn't have to pay tax on it. The ordnance survey showed it as a main road in the early 1800s. There was no doubt it existed, it was just proving who used it and what for.

As for the costs, try going to court and see how much it can cost, it aint cheap.
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Old Thread Alert!

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