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M25 Average Speed Cameras

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j.silvs
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PostPosted: 06:18 - 06 Sep 2013    Post subject: M25 Average Speed Cameras Reply with quote
Was riding along the M25 yesterday when I hit the 50mph average speed zone.

One thing I noticed is that all the cameras seem to be front facing. Is this correct?

If so, I am hammering it next time
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Tungtvann
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PostPosted: 06:32 - 06 Sep 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, they go off front number plates, bikes are immune.
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j.silvs
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PostPosted: 06:36 - 06 Sep 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tungtvann wrote:
Yes, they go off front number plates, bikes are immune.


Thumbs Up Laughing Thumbs Up

Looking forward to the next ride....
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jonbee56
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PostPosted: 07:31 - 06 Sep 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Watch out, they are starting to use rear facing cameras as well.

Just check the direction they are facing when you hit the restriction. If the first one is front facing, so will the rest

I noticed the M25 J5 is rear facing, and I believe that the M1 near Milton Keynes is as well.
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P.addy
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PostPosted: 07:31 - 06 Sep 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
There are rear ones also, use your eyes.

Regardless, they are there to scare you, I've done over 100mph on the way back from Spain through them.
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Tungtvann
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PostPosted: 07:38 - 06 Sep 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
I always stick to a rigid 55 in the car, (no tickets) but it's great on the bike. As mentioned though, there are some back facing ones, haven't noticed any of those myself luckily. Just take the plate off the bike and go for it.
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Christoffee
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PostPosted: 07:53 - 06 Sep 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Do 100mph to Clackets. Stop for a coffee and a burger. Do 100mph out. Average speed: 12mph.
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P.addy
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PostPosted: 07:56 - 06 Sep 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Christoffee wrote:
Do 100mph to Clackets. Stop for a coffee and a burger. Do 100mph out. Average speed: 12mph.


It works between the cameras, not end to end.
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P.addy
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PostPosted: 08:03 - 06 Sep 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Why would they put up rows and rows of cameras if they wanted the average speed of cars. Scan plate in, scan plate out. "Entry speed 50mph, exist speed 40mph over the 6 miles it took 3 minutes, their average was xmph, have a summons"

I can't do maths so do not want to work this one out Laughing

But yeah, they check between each one, no real issue Laughing
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P.addy
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PostPosted: 08:06 - 06 Sep 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tungtvann wrote:
Rob Fzs wrote:
i've always wondered about this, if you did over the speed limit inbetween every camera, could you rack up 30 points in 1 stretch ?

I think it should only be the one.


But that isn't the money making way is it Laughing
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Tungtvann
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PostPosted: 08:08 - 06 Sep 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Just deleted my comment, I'm reading around and getting varying answers. Some say it's only the one offence, but conversely some say otherwise! I think in this case, with average speed cameras, it is one offence, but someone said about if you went through 2 Gatso cameras on the same journey, is that too, just the one offence?

So no, not 100% sure, I think it'd be unfair to do you for every camera you pass on the motorway.
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Tungtvann
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PostPosted: 08:16 - 06 Sep 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Paddy. wrote:
Why would they put up rows and rows of cameras if they wanted the average speed of cars. Scan plate in, scan plate out. "Entry speed 50mph, exist speed 40mph over the 6 miles it took 3 minutes, their average was xmph, have a summons"

I can't do maths so do not want to work this one out Laughing

But yeah, they check between each one, no real issue Laughing


Not sure if I've misunderstood you, but the cameras don't measure your speed at all.

The cameras do work in pairs, but not always consecutive pairs if you know what I mean. Say it's a stretch of 12 cameras, they won't always time you between 1-2, then 3-4 etc. It could be 1-4, 2-5, 3-8 and so on. Not sure why, again I've read varying accounts about it.
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DrSnoosnoo
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PostPosted: 08:18 - 06 Sep 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think it would just be one, if you're doing 70 and you do one constant 70, technically it is one offence, you are speeding at one discrete moment.

If you did 100 through one set then go fine to the next one then speed up again, that could be considered different offences ... maybe?
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jonbee56
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PostPosted: 08:26 - 06 Sep 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
like Paddy says, Im not sure how it works out either, but I need to ask one question...

Has anyone here been ticketed for average cameras ?
If so, what does it say on the ticket, does it state locations, or just motorway general areas ?
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P.addy
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PostPosted: 08:28 - 06 Sep 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
No idea, brother puts them up and schedules where they go, so info from him rather than interwebs. Thumbs Up
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jonbee56
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PostPosted: 08:32 - 06 Sep 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Paddy. wrote:
No idea, brother puts them up and schedules where they go, so info from him rather than interwebs. Thumbs Up


As an aside, does he have to put them up at precise intervals (I mean to the nearest mm) otherwise the average reading will not be accurate, or does it work on road markings 'cos I haven't seen any
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barrkel
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PostPosted: 09:07 - 06 Sep 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
jonbee56 wrote:
As an aside, does he have to put them up at precise intervals (I mean to the nearest mm) otherwise the average reading will not be accurate, or does it work on road markings 'cos I haven't seen any


They don't need to be at regular intervals, nor anywhere close to mm accuracy to catch egregious speeders. If they're about every mile, and you take about 60 seconds to show up on consecutive cameras, then you're going about 60 miles per hour. The relative difference in camera distance corresponds to the relative difference in speed estimation. So unless they're more than 10% of a mile out (over 500 feet), their estimation of your speed will be off by less than 10%. If the charging threshold is high enough (at least 10% over the limit), then they're safe.

Load the cameras up with GPS receivers (GPS chips cost less than 10GBP) and they get both location accuracy and extremely precise timing (GPS works from calculating timing differences, time is part of the signal) in one bundle without needing to communicate with one another. Have each camera create logs with recognized plates with corresponding timestamps, and do a calibration run with a vehicle that also has a GPS tracker, and correlate, and you can get fairly accurate on-road distance (rather than bird-flight distance) trivially.

But on-road distance will be longer than bird-flight distance anyway, so if you take e.g. 30 seconds to cover 1 mile as the crow flies, any argument about the road distance being longer is no help at all, because it means you were going even faster than 120mph. So calibration is not needed unless they want to catch more people on curvy bits of road.
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jonbee56
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PostPosted: 09:55 - 06 Sep 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
barrkel wrote:
jonbee56 wrote:
As an aside, does he have to put them up at precise intervals (I mean to the nearest mm) otherwise the average reading will not be accurate, or does it work on road markings 'cos I haven't seen any


They don't need to be at regular intervals, nor anywhere close to mm accuracy to catch egregious speeders. If they're about every mile, and you take about 60 seconds to show up on consecutive cameras, then you're going about 60 miles per hour. The relative difference in camera distance corresponds to the relative difference in speed estimation. So unless they're more than 10% of a mile out (over 500 feet), their estimation of your speed will be off by less than 10%. If the charging threshold is high enough (at least 10% over the limit), then they're safe.

Load the cameras up with GPS receivers (GPS chips cost less than 10GBP) and they get both location accuracy and extremely precise timing (GPS works from calculating timing differences, time is part of the signal) in one bundle without needing to communicate with one another. Have each camera create logs with recognized plates with corresponding timestamps, and do a calibration run with a vehicle that also has a GPS tracker, and correlate, and you can get fairly accurate on-road distance (rather than bird-flight distance) trivially.

But on-road distance will be longer than bird-flight distance anyway, so if you take e.g. 30 seconds to cover 1 mile as the crow flies, any argument about the road distance being longer is no help at all, because it means you were going even faster than 120mph. So calibration is not needed unless they want to catch more people on curvy bits of road.


...OK.... I get the idea of what you are saying, and wont bother with technical legislation queries.

Back to the other haft of the question, has anyone been ticketed for this ?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:16 - 06 Sep 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
T'intardtubes suggest that the M25 ones have never been turned on because they can't find a pair of left handed scissors to cut all the red tape.

Of course, they're hardly likely to put up signs saying "Average speed cameras now actually averaging your speed", so warranty void where prohibited.
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gorillaonabik...
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PostPosted: 10:24 - 06 Sep 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
jonbee56 wrote:
Back to the other haft of the question, has anyone been ticketed for this ?


I, ahem, heard of a guy who went through a whole series of them on his way at 100mph down to the Chunnel because he was running late. He thought they were all front facing and had zero issues... so far. Looks OK.
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Enaver
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PostPosted: 10:26 - 06 Sep 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
I join the M25 from the M23 and travel to the M1 regularly. I normally go a constant 80-100mph, haven't had anything yet.
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P.addy
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PostPosted: 10:27 - 06 Sep 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
They aren't on... I still don't understand why they bother, roadworks are there I know but getting hit at 50 or 70, damage difference against a ton of metal vs human is negligible Neutral
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DrSnoosnoo
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PostPosted: 10:36 - 06 Sep 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Paddy. wrote:
They aren't on... I still don't understand why they bother, roadworks are there I know but getting hit at 50 or 70, damage difference against a ton of metal vs human is negligible Neutral


But the teeth will land closer to the body making it easier to identify which worker was hit
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