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gorillaonabik...
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PostPosted: 16:27 - 01 Oct 2013    Post subject: Any physicists on here? Reply with quote
Apologies for the general shout out but I am going through an insurance claim. The other insurance company has admitted liability but need some help with calculations around a car hitting a stationary object (me on a bike waiting in a queue of traffic at traffic lights).

This is to explore an avenue around a claim.

I did maths stats at Uni so am happy with the maths but want to save myself the hassle of learning about some of the finer points of Newton's laws around momentum. D"mnit, wish I'd studied harder in school...
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instigator
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PostPosted: 16:30 - 01 Oct 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Post up your request and i am sure some of the engineers can answer it.
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P.
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PostPosted: 16:31 - 01 Oct 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Whiplash?
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Nick 50
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PostPosted: 16:52 - 01 Oct 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Derivative will be along shortly to baffle us all Laughing

But yep, stick up the problem with as much detail as possible and exactly what you are trying to achieve and why.
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gorillaonabik...
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PostPosted: 18:40 - 01 Oct 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nick 50 wrote:
Derivative will be along shortly to baffle us all Laughing

But yep, stick up the problem with as much detail as possible and exactly what you are trying to achieve and why.


OK. A 2 ton (metric car) runs into the back of a stationary motorcycle. The car is travelling at 10 mph (16 kph).

The motorcycle weighs 250kgs, rider is, erm, 110kgs. Probably a little more.

How much weight is transferred to the motorcycle? What units of measurement? What the hell is a KiloNewton anyway? And most importantly, what units could I use to most impress a judge as this is going to court.

No whiplash involved, just knocked off the bike....
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Ste
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PostPosted: 18:42 - 01 Oct 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Don't you have solicitors to do this stuff? Confused
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Nick 50
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PostPosted: 18:52 - 01 Oct 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
gorillaonabike wrote:


OK. A 2 ton (metric car) runs into the back of a stationary motorcycle. The car is travelling at 10 mph (16 kph).

The motorcycle weighs 250kgs, rider is, erm, 110kgs. Probably a little more.

How much weight is transferred to the motorcycle? What units of measurement? What the hell is a KiloNewton anyway? And most importantly, what units could I use to most impress a judge as this is going to court.

No whiplash involved, just knocked off the bike....


The bit in red is probably the most important thing for you.

What is a KiloNewton?? Well I could try and explain, but would you really know? Well to be fair, that isn;t important.

What will be important is would a Judge know what one is? Also would they care?

If you are to go in with an engineers calculations on crash dynamics, i'm pretty sure they will ask "Are you an Engineer?". If you were, the judge might let you explain, but probably not.

All the judge is looking for is "who is at fault?" and how quickest to appropriate the necessary liability to the case.

To be honest, I think you will be wasting your time.
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MattJ
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PostPosted: 18:53 - 01 Oct 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
gorillaonabike wrote:
How much weight is transferred to the motorcycle?


It is impossible for weight to be transferred, just energy. I'm not trying to be a dick by saying this, but if you have to ask that question then you don't have a clue what you are on about so what is the point in giving you any information.

Whatever you do it would require a really in depth calculation to figure anything out. There are so many factors to include, mainly how much deformation energy to include (the car crumpling) etc. And without know exactly what car, exactly what bike, the angle of the collision then nobody on here is going to be able to give you that much information.

Last edited by MattJ on 19:02 - 01 Oct 2013; edited 1 time in total
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goto10
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PostPosted: 18:55 - 01 Oct 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
gorillaonabike wrote:


OK. A 2 ton (metric car) runs into the back of a stationary motorcycle. The car is travelling at 10 mph (16 kph).


I think that bit alone is all of the explaining you need to do.

gorillaonabike wrote:

...rider is, erm, 110kgs. Probably a little more...


Hell, if you ran into me at 6mph whilst I was stationary I'd probably be hospitalised.
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MattJ
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PostPosted: 18:57 - 01 Oct 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nick 50 wrote:
gorillaonabike wrote:
What the hell is a KiloNewton anyway?


The bit in red is probably the most important thing for you.

What is a KiloNewton?? Well I could try and explain, but would you really know? Well to be fair, that isn;t important.


A KiloNewton (kN) is 1000 Newtons (N). A Newton is a unit of force.

Just the same as a Kilometre, 1000 metres.

Not that hard but if you have to ask about that then I'm not sure what you'd gain from someone calculating the force transferred to your bike in the collision.
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gorillaonabik...
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PostPosted: 19:37 - 01 Oct 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
Don't you have solicitors to do this stuff? Confused


Clearly I wouldn't be asking...
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FZR400 (blown engine), ZXR750 (blown engine), ZX6R (accident), CBR600 which had engine issues after which I learned to change gear..., CBR900, CBR924 (stolen), CB600, CB1300 (everything blew up), BMW K1300GT (written off, hit from rear while stationary), Bandit 1250 for a couple of months, Triumph Sprint ST 1050 (nicked) and somewhere in there, I wrote off a Ducati 748 at Cadwell.
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UnspeedySam
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PostPosted: 19:52 - 01 Oct 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's impossible to calculate without knowing how much the car slowed by hitting you, or your top speed after being hit, as from those you can work out your acceleration. It's basically a PE=KE calculation, but the energy imparted upon your motorcycle will have been lost from the car and will have slowed it, without knowing either changes in velocity then you can't work anything out.
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Sload
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PostPosted: 19:54 - 01 Oct 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
instigator wrote:
Post up your request and i am sure some of the engineers can answer it.


Well it's not rocket science Mr. Green
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gorillaonabik...
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PostPosted: 20:07 - 01 Oct 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
goto10 wrote:
gorillaonabike wrote:


OK. A 2 ton (metric car) runs into the back of a stationary motorcycle. The car is travelling at 10 mph (16 kph).


I think that bit alone is all of the explaining you need to do.

gorillaonabike wrote:

...rider is, erm, 110kgs. Probably a little more...


Hell, if you ran into me at 6mph whilst I was stationary I'd probably be hospitalised.


Ironically, considering the current situation, I used to hit like a train as well.

So as no-one else has come up with an answer I can put to a judge, I will have to figure this out myself.

Right, I'm going to start with mass in motion calculated at a conventional kg m/s expressed as p = m * v Presuming the p is kg per m/s. Putting the initial figures into a conventional calculation, this means 2.2 metric tons * 16 kph or 2,200 kgs multiplied by 4.44 m/s (think this is 16 kph) which appears to be the conventional calculation for velocity

So the momentum can be measured as a standard measurement at 9768 kgs per m/s or if I were to express this to a judge, just under 10 metric tons per m / s.

Expressed to a judge, I have just been hit by under 10 tons per m/s and no human being would be able to resist this.

This is just a place to start and now have to read up on Newton's laws etc... I'm in for a long evening.
____________________
FZR400 (blown engine), ZXR750 (blown engine), ZX6R (accident), CBR600 which had engine issues after which I learned to change gear..., CBR900, CBR924 (stolen), CB600, CB1300 (everything blew up), BMW K1300GT (written off, hit from rear while stationary), Bandit 1250 for a couple of months, Triumph Sprint ST 1050 (nicked) and somewhere in there, I wrote off a Ducati 748 at Cadwell.
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UnspeedySam
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PostPosted: 20:20 - 01 Oct 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Don't bother trying to work it out by guessing variables. If you could calculate his acceleration from these few know variables then you could instantaneously settle every questionable whiplash claim all over the world in an instant, and you'd be fabulously wealthy overnight. That's what you're trying to do.
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Dave_R
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PostPosted: 20:20 - 01 Oct 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
gorillaonabike wrote:

Right, I'm going to start with mass in motion calculated at a conventional kg m/s expressed as p = m * v Presuming the p is kg per m/s. Putting the initial figures into a conventional calculation, this means 2.2 metric tons * 16 kph or 2,200 kgs multiplied by 4.44 m/s (think this is 16 kph) which appears to be the conventional calculation for velocity

So the momentum can be measured as a standard measurement at 9768 kgs per m/s or if I were to express this to a judge, just under 10 metric tons per m / s.

Expressed to a judge, I have just been hit by under 10 tons per m/s and no human being would be able to resist this.

This is just a place to start and now have to read up on Newton's laws etc... I'm in for a long evening.


...which is all useless without considering the changes in velocity.

Did you read UnspeedySam's post?

EDIT: Beaten by a SpeedySam!

Last edited by Dave_R on 20:21 - 01 Oct 2013; edited 2 times in total
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Shaft
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PostPosted: 20:20 - 01 Oct 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
OK, I'll bite, just what question is it you're expecting a judge to ask?
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defblade
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PostPosted: 20:24 - 01 Oct 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ask the judge to sit on a bike while you drive a car into the back of him.

He probably won't be keen... that should make your point for you.
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UnspeedySam
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PostPosted: 20:30 - 01 Oct 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm shit at physics. The Other Paul Rudd forget his password and I left BCF signed in on my laptop. Laughing
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Fixing: Also the BMW as I get less broken bits
Gone: ZZR600 '00, TRX850 '97, RXS100 '93, JS125-6B '07, BMW R1100RS '93, Kawasaki ZX-6R-J2 '01, Honda Bros NT400 NC25 '88
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map
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PostPosted: 20:34 - 01 Oct 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sload wrote:
instigator wrote:
Post up your request and i am sure some of the engineers can answer it.
Well it's not rocket science Mr. Green

Exactly. Rocket science is easy.
Now rocket engineering, that is where the real men play. Very Happy
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gorillaonabik...
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PostPosted: 20:49 - 01 Oct 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Dave_R wrote:
gorillaonabike wrote:

Right, I'm going to start with mass in motion calculated at a conventional kg m/s expressed as p = m * v Presuming the p is kg per m/s. Putting the initial figures into a conventional calculation, this means 2.2 metric tons * 16 kph or 2,200 kgs multiplied by 4.44 m/s (think this is 16 kph) which appears to be the conventional calculation for velocity

So the momentum can be measured as a standard measurement at 9768 kgs per m/s or if I were to express this to a judge, just under 10 metric tons per m / s.

Expressed to a judge, I have just been hit by under 10 tons per m/s and no human being would be able to resist this.

This is just a place to start and now have to read up on Newton's laws etc... I'm in for a long evening.


...which is all useless without considering the changes in velocity.

Did you read UnspeedySam's post?

EDIT: Beaten by a SpeedySam!


What changes in velocity?

Who has whiplash? I don't.
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FZR400 (blown engine), ZXR750 (blown engine), ZX6R (accident), CBR600 which had engine issues after which I learned to change gear..., CBR900, CBR924 (stolen), CB600, CB1300 (everything blew up), BMW K1300GT (written off, hit from rear while stationary), Bandit 1250 for a couple of months, Triumph Sprint ST 1050 (nicked) and somewhere in there, I wrote off a Ducati 748 at Cadwell.
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Dave_R
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PostPosted: 20:52 - 01 Oct 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
gorillaonabike wrote:

What changes in velocity?


*sigh*

UnspeedySam wrote:
It's impossible to calculate without knowing how much the car slowed by hitting you, or your top speed after being hit, as from those you can work out your acceleration. It's basically a PE=KE calculation, but the energy imparted upon your motorcycle will have been lost from the car and will have slowed it, without knowing either changes in velocity then you can't work anything out.
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UnspeedySam
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PostPosted: 20:54 - 01 Oct 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
gorillaonabike wrote:


Who has whiplash? I don't.


Your change in velocity, or the car's change in velocity. m1*v1=m2*v2 is only valid if the car comes to a dead stop after hitting you.
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Riding: BMW R1150RT `02 bought mildly crashed
Fixing: Also the BMW as I get less broken bits
Gone: ZZR600 '00, TRX850 '97, RXS100 '93, JS125-6B '07, BMW R1100RS '93, Kawasaki ZX-6R-J2 '01, Honda Bros NT400 NC25 '88
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UnspeedySam
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PostPosted: 20:56 - 01 Oct 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
<Russian Accent> You have apple and you give apple to friend, er, you still have apple. Energy is conserved. Much success. </Russian Accent>
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orac
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PostPosted: 21:02 - 01 Oct 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
a newton os normally a measurement of force, but also of mass, a newton does not change depsnding on gravity - its a universal conasant unlike weight which will vary depending on the gravity.

on earth there is about 10kg (well 9.81kg) per newton, so a kilonewton will be 10,000kg, or 10 metric tonnes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton_(unit)

as for the physics, forget it, there are too many variables, the maths behind the collisions is hard to do under lab condidtions

however we know that f=m/a. do the math here if you really want

however getting that to stand up in court will be questionable, if at all possible. as you will still have to take into account road and weather conditions.
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