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Derbi Senda 50cc wont start - has fuel, spark, compression

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orac69
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PostPosted: 15:48 - 15 Nov 2013    Post subject: Derbi Senda 50cc wont start - has fuel, spark, compression Reply with quote

Hi guys,

Im a bit stumped - could do with some advice please. Searched for hours, still not sure what to do..

My son has a 2006 Senda X-Race 50cc. Its got a pipe, derestricted, changed jet, needle, sprocket etc. and its been running perfectly.

On his way home it just died. Cant kick start it, cant bump start it - there is no even attempt at firing up.

Ive checked / changed the plug - its got a nice strong blue/white spark - which would rule our the CDI / HT / electrics?

There is fuel getting through Im pretty sure - had the carb off, float wasnt stuck, all pipes look good and tight, had a blow through.

There is compression - a good thud when putting a finger on the plug hole..

The fuse is good.

Battery voltage was a little low @ 12.5v, so ive put that on charge - but I thought the Senda should start without a good battery on a bump..

Actually I didnt check the main jet for blockage - but shouldnt be - its only done about 500 miles since re-jetting.

advice appreciated, thanks.
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bikenut
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PostPosted: 15:57 - 15 Nov 2013    Post subject: non starter Reply with quote

:D hi dude,

so it has all the ingredients of life but just will not start ( on the electric start ), it has sparks when the engine is whizzed over on the starter, even when the plug is in and you use a spare plug to check for sparks??

so, has the flywheel key sheared, sparks work etc but at the wrong time.........

i presume you have added some fule down the plug hole and tried it then, starting i mean??

check that first, flywheel marks align correctly when the piston is at tdc ish??
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bladerunner
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PostPosted: 17:33 - 15 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly as above! Teaspoon of fuel down the plug hole first.if it runs for a few seconds deffo fuel related...failing that woodruff key etc
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orac69
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PostPosted: 17:50 - 15 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks - dont know anything about and have never changed or inspected a flywheel - will try the petrol down the hole first and report back Wink
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orac69
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PostPosted: 18:02 - 15 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

btw - its a manual kick start, not electric start.
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reed
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PostPosted: 18:52 - 15 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had this issue with my brothers 50cc bike, turned out to be bad fuel, if it runs with the fuel from the tank put directly 'down the hole' then it may still be bad fuel, as I found, eventually.

Confused me for a while, as it started and ran for a second or two when fuel was placed directly into the head, I think there must have been water sitting at the bottom of the tank.
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orac69
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PostPosted: 22:27 - 15 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, so it sparks nicely with a new plug in, and holding a spare plug to the side.

Nothing happens at all when I put a teaspoon of fuel down the hole - not even the hint of a start. It's not bad fuel I'm sure - brand new.

Battery is fully charged close to 14v

So then guys it must be the magneto? I see a line on it - but what am I looking for / how to test?

Should I just replace it?

Thx
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bikenut
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PostPosted: 11:40 - 16 Nov 2013    Post subject: non start Reply with quote

so, good sparks, fresh fuel down the plug hole and still no sign..........pics needed for timijng marks but........

with plug out, and piston seen to rise to tdc ish, does mark appear close to a reference mark on the engine??

if its close then may be ok, by close i mean within a few mm, ign fire point usually a few degrees before tdc max piston movement upwards.

if the marks are way out then suspect flywheel key ( woodruff ).

if flywheel nut removed you can probably see the key "slot" which probably lines up with tdc, pointing up in line with the cylinder.........

pic would help.

it could also be a blocked esxhaust but check the key first.

if the key has sheaered, then flywheel will move relative to the crank and end up at any position, even the correct one for an instant.

pics pics pics......... Karma
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bikenut
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PostPosted: 11:31 - 19 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

its real fun sometimes isnt it!!!!!!!
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Paddy.
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PostPosted: 11:35 - 19 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW I had zero spark when woodruff key finally gave up the 2nd time. PITA
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orac69
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PostPosted: 16:23 - 19 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nope, its not the woodruff key - looks intact and fine. See pics.

So I guess next step is to replace the entire flywheel / magneto - perhaps the spark I was seeing is intermittent..
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Paddy.
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PostPosted: 16:25 - 19 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd still be looking at the spark plug and fuel delivery.. so carb and spark plug. I have had new plugs just not work...
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orac69
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PostPosted: 16:55 - 19 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Paddy,

Ive tried 3 plugs so pretty sure its not that.

I do have a spare 21mm carb - I'll stick that on first tonight before replacing the expensive flywheel assembly or cdi.
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mpd72
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PostPosted: 17:58 - 19 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

When my other half's NSR died shortly after de-restriction, I checked for spark, fuel and it seemed to have compression with my finger over the plug hole. It wouldn't fire though.

In the end the piston ring pin had come out taking a tiny chunk of piston and ring with it and scoring the bore. It gave enough compression to push my finger off the spark plug hole but not enough to ignite the fuel.

I'd pop the exhaust off and shine a torch up the exhaust port to have a quick look if all the other checks come back OK.
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bikenut
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PostPosted: 12:28 - 20 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

also, the staor has been off by the look of the screws, and it seem to be at an extreme of the adjusting slot.............has it been put back on in the right place and is it timed correctly, but check rings thru exhaust port as a missing ring will have an effect.

however, this bike was running till it concked on the way home......blocked exhaust or fuel.........or dondgy connection on the ign??

how is air filter??
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orac69
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PostPosted: 16:25 - 21 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the advice guys - mpd72 - you were right... Piston knackered, barrel scored, so obviously had some compression but not enough.

Top end rebuild time.

Petrol is in the crank - is it ok just to flush it out?
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