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E10 Ethanol - as bad as they make out?

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Snorty
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PostPosted: 23:06 - 20 Jan 2013    Post subject: E10 Ethanol - as bad as they make out? Reply with quote
Just been reading up on this: https://www.yorkshire-mag.co.uk/ethanol.html

Thoughts, anyone?
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 23:20 - 20 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, if they're gonna let this happen in CZE, I'm done riding Neutral

The number of issues is ridiculous, I think the only reason, why they want this is to increase money income, since you're gonna have to buy a new motorcycle/car and pay a big amount of money to keep it alive or for your old vehicle = tax money Thumbs Down

It sounds quite like 2-strokes, again, in a way Thinking
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flearider
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PostPosted: 00:29 - 21 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
well simple thing to do if it causes a problem with your bike just sue em .. easy to prove ..
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Vracktal
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PostPosted: 00:55 - 21 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
The Department for Transport commissioned an independent study by QinetiQ to assess fuel system compatability with bio-ethanol in early 2011. This study made a number of key recommendations:
· Vehicles ten years old or older, carburettored vehicles (including PTW's) and first generation direct injection spark ignition vehicles should not be fuelled on E10 unless the manufacturer can state the vehicles are compatible with E10
· The automotive industry should produce a comprehensive list of vehicles compatible with E10. While it is acknowledged that some lists do already exist, if in doubt, the vehicle operator should seek clarification from the vehicle manufacturer
· E5 should not be phased out in 2013, its widespread availability should continue for the foreseeable future
· Consideration should be given to maintaining a specification for E0 fuel for historic and vintage vehicles


My car is 21 years old, my bike is 20 years old and carb'ed to boot.

WTF are they expecting people like me to do? I can't exactly buy a new bike + car on a whim, and yet if I don't (or find some kind of compatibility mod which i've no doubt won't be available for my relatively obscure vehicles) then they're basically saying fuck you, your vehicles are toast.

Plus E85 has a lower octane rating so bikes running it will be slower and get poorer MPG.

Plus growing E85 takes up acres of farmland that could be used for growing food and which require a shitton of chemicals sprayed over the crop regularly to protect it against pests.

Yeah sounds great. Rolling Eyes
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Snorty
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PostPosted: 01:09 - 21 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Vracktal wrote:


My car is 21 years old, my bike is 20 years old and carb'ed to boot.

WTF are they expecting people like me to do? I can't exactly buy a new bike + car on a whim, and yet if I don't (or find some kind of compatibility mod which i've no doubt won't be available for my relatively obscure vehicles) then they're basically saying fuck you, your vehicles are toast.



That's it though, they don't care - it doesn't affect the people who pass this legislation, at least not negatively.
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Eddie Hitler
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PostPosted: 03:06 - 21 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
This kind of thing is crackers. How many people won't even know this is coming into force? A few I'd imagine.
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 06:53 - 21 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Eddie Hitler wrote:
This kind of thing is crackers. How many people won't even know this is coming into force? A few I'd imagine.


'Crackers' I see what you did there. Cool Thumbs Up
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temeluchus
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PostPosted: 07:13 - 21 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Vracktal wrote:

WTF are they expecting people like me to do? I can't exactly buy a new bike + car on a whim, and yet if I don't (or find some kind of compatibility mod which i've no doubt won't be available for my relatively obscure vehicles) then they're basically saying fuck you, your vehicles are toast.


They want as many people as possible off the road. Pretty obvious.
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weasley
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PostPosted: 07:30 - 21 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Vracktal wrote:
Plus E85 has a lower octane rating so bikes running it will be slower and get poorer MPG.


Actually E85 has a higher RON than regular road fuel. The issue is that ethanol has less energy density than hydrocarbon fuel, so you need to burn more to get the same output.

Biobutanol is a much better alternative but not yet as easily produced as bioethanol.
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Shinigami
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PostPosted: 09:29 - 21 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
well, that sounds fucking stupid, i didn't know about this at all
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:08 - 21 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
MAG are agitating that even some FI vehicles made up to 2007 or so will be screwed by E10. There's no way to tell until we suck it and see.

Given the fossil fuel costs of producing ethanol, it's the worst sort of idiotic ideological ecomentalism.
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kramdra
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PostPosted: 10:22 - 21 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
I knew 5 years ago that ethanol was added to fuel. Its cheaper (for them). This is nothing new, and about 7 years too late.


Quote:
In addition to increased maintenance & reduced vehicle life, possible catastrophic failure (fuel fires due to leaking hoses, piston seizure etc), could actually directly result in driver / rider fatalities.



I dont think E0-5 could be withdrawn if the sudden change to E10 would cause fuel leaks but I very much doubt it would, since E5 has been in use for ages.
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kernow24
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PostPosted: 10:33 - 21 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bit of a non story really.

Does anybody think for a second that all fuel sold will contain the 10% ethanol, when it doesn't need to? The key point is that petrol etc will be allowed to contain 10% ethanol, it isn't compulsory. Just like now it can contain 5% and a lot doesn't.

Do you think the oil companies / petrol retailers are going to just shaft the user's of the 15 million incompatible cars / bikes etc By putting 10% ethanol in everything? Of course they wont, it will hit their bottom line to the tune of billions.

The legislation only specifies that 10% of fuel used must come from renewable sources... and the 10% figure for ethanol in petrol has been slid in to cover their arses.

The reality is, by 2020 when the 10% renewable fuels comes in,
a lot of the older cars will be off the road, and more modern cars etc are more than capable of running on such blends.

Nothing will change, apart from maybe getting extra pump choices at the pumps.

Say unleaded, super unleaded, diesel, bio diesel and a bio petrol blend, with the non bio stuff coming at a premium.
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Kradmelder
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PostPosted: 10:37 - 21 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Coming here as well and teh draft legislation in place but no date set yet. We have plenty of sugar cane they want to use.

apparently we have an annual surplus of 9 billion tonnes of cane.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:39 - 21 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
kernow24 wrote:
The legislation only specifies that 10% of fuel used must come from renewable sources

Renewable sources grown with the use of fossil fuels. Doh!

It's silly greenwashing, like improving tomato yields with heat and captured CO2 from a power plant.

Super-duper, but you're still burning enough gas to get 3,000 tonnes of CO2 (plus dihydrogen monoxide) for a return of 1,500 tonnes of tomatoes. Just ship the things in from Spain.

Anyway, I'll be putting E5 in my vehicles, you knock yourself out with ecojuice if you like.
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Kradmelder
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PostPosted: 11:43 - 21 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
kernow24 wrote:
The legislation only specifies that 10% of fuel used must come from renewable sources

Renewable sources grown with the use of fossil fuels. Doh!

It's silly greenwashing, like improving tomato yields with heat and captured CO2 from a power plant.

Super-duper, but you're still burning enough gas to get 3,000 tonnes of CO2 (plus dihydrogen monoxide) for a return of 1,500 tonnes of tomatoes. Just ship the things in from Spain.

Anyway, I'll be putting E5 in my vehicles, you knock yourself out with ecojuice if you like.


In europe you will be burning fuels for tractors and fertiliser made from fuel produce the plant material for ecofuel.

Here for the cane we will rely on darkie power!!! so less energy required to produce it, but then you must grow mealies to feed the darkies to cut and load the cane Shocked
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 14:24 - 21 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kradmelder wrote:
In europe you will be burning fuels for tractors and fertiliser made from fuel produce the plant material for ecofuel.

Here for the cane we will rely on darkie power!!! so less energy required to produce it, but then you must grow mealies to feed the darkies to cut and load the cane Shocked


You were doing so well there Kramers old chap then the beast in you came out again.

You are not allowed to use the term Dark**s when refering to Indigenous Africans of the Cape (and surrounding regions)
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 14:37 - 21 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, in the end, the EU will force its members to use this eco-dolphin lover's fuel and still there will be places like the USA where they don't give a **** about ecology and burn what ever they can in their V8 5.2 liter cars. I say if the UN works, force them to use this ''eco'' fuel and not europe where most of people drive an 1.2 VW Thumbs Up
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Kradmelder
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PostPosted: 15:04 - 21 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Walloper wrote:
Kradmelder wrote:
In europe you will be burning fuels for tractors and fertiliser made from fuel produce the plant material for ecofuel.

Here for the cane we will rely on darkie power!!! so less energy required to produce it, but then you must grow mealies to feed the darkies to cut and load the cane Shocked


You were doing so well there Kramers old chap then the beast in you came out again.

You are not allowed to use the term Dark**s when refering to Indigenous Africans of the Cape (and surrounding regions)


They are not indigenous to the cape or even southern africa. They are Nguni migrants from the north. Given their penchant for referring to whites by their colour followed by some insult, like Mlungus (white scum), or f..g white dogs, or as settlers (which they also are themselves), and their president and the former president Mandela singing to kill them all, darkie is relatively mild and polite by comparison and distingusihes them from the whitey settlers, since we are of different culture, language and behaviour.

Then of course there are the more indigenous Coloureds, who are a mix of whitey (migrants), darkey (migrants), bushmen (indigenous but almost wiped out by darkie), Hottentots (indigenous), malays (brought in by the dutch) and indians (brought in by the english).

The indigenous people by the way are not darkies since they are not of the negroid race, but a seperate race called the Capoid race, believed to be the oldest on earth.

Quote:
the Khoisan (always referred to as "Hottentots and Bushmen" before the 1960s) [12] (the Khoisan by the 1960s became regarded as a separate race known as the Capoid race


So I have yet to refer to the indigenous people as 'darkies'.
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Last edited by Kradmelder on 15:15 - 21 Jan 2013; edited 1 time in total
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barrkel
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PostPosted: 15:15 - 21 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Two things:

* Ethanol has perhaps 34% less energy from combustion as petrol. So a 10:90 ethanol:petrol blend has only 3.4% less energy. It's not a huge loss.

* Ethanol and water are miscible; an ethanol / petrol blend will gradually remove water from the bottom of your tank.

I'm not hugely in favour; I'd prefer a synthetic petrol, as petrol has higher energy density. But I'm not too worried just yet; it'll probably mean more pumps at the station.
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Kradmelder
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PostPosted: 15:28 - 21 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
barrkel wrote:
Two things:

* Ethanol has perhaps 34% less energy from combustion as petrol. So a 10:90 ethanol:petrol blend has only 3.4% less energy. It's not a huge loss.

* Ethanol and water are miscible; an ethanol / petrol blend will gradually remove water from the bottom of your tank.

I'm not hugely in favour; I'd prefer a synthetic petrol, as petrol has higher energy density. But I'm not too worried just yet; it'll probably mean more pumps at the station.


I Recall there was an aussie website from the fhmcsa listing which model car and bike can run on different ethanol blends.
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weasley
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PostPosted: 19:04 - 21 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Playing devil's advocate, for the sake of the debate...

barrkel wrote:
* Ethanol has perhaps 34% less energy from combustion as petrol. So a 10:90 ethanol:petrol blend has only 3.4% less energy. It's not a huge loss.


When the car manufacturers are getting excited about 0.5% fuel economy improvements, 3.4% is a huge loss. Plus it brings with it a corresponding increase in CO2 emissions.

barrkel wrote:
* Ethanol and water are miscible; an ethanol / petrol blend will gradually remove water from the bottom of your tank.


...and take it through your fuel system, leading to potential loss of lubricity and increased corrosion. This along with the water it can absorb during the transport, storage and filling processes.

However, let's not forget that they have been suffering these issues for decades in Brazil and seem to be managing OK.
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bikertomm
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PostPosted: 19:07 - 21 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Not good, the government really are trying to get older vehicles off the road Rolling Eyes

Bunch of c-nuts. Thumbs Up
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Kradmelder
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PostPosted: 19:23 - 21 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
By old car it means pre 86. How many are still on the road? When the switch came to unleaded there was the same scare about old motors and now? It gets phased out as the old clunkers go off the road, and the classics use additives
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krarkol
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PostPosted: 19:23 - 21 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Can only just afford keeping the bandit on the road, no way could I get anything newer yet!
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