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Mr Calendar
Joined: 14 Jun 2004
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 Posted: 19:39 - 22 Nov 2013  Post subject: Bike history, when did CG lose out to YBR? |
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When I started this bike lark the Honda CG was THE default learner tool.
Now it is the YBR that is the must have bike for learners.
When and how did Honda lose the plot?
Just curious, I haven't been reading bike press. Will it have anything to do with EU emission regs?
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Sload
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The Voice of Reason
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Mr Calendar
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| Posted: 21:18 - 22 Nov 2013 Post subject: |
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So Honda lost the plot and didn't understand the market?
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...and the whirlwind is in the thorn trees, it's hard for thee to kick against the pricks...
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Rogerborg
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Posted: 21:45 - 22 Nov 2013  Post subject: |
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As I understand it, the carbed CG pushrod lump was done over by Euro 3 emissions. Honda turned a problem into an opportunity and got their Indian subsidiary to design a new bike from the ground up.
I think they understand the market perfectly. The CBF125 is neck and neck with the YBR as the UK's best selling bike, despite a laundry list of common issues: Friday finish, corrosion, fuel pump/tank lining, running dry and seizing. That Honda reputation goes a long way: MCN still have the CBF rated at 4 stars, again despite admitting that their test bike rusted up a treat in short order. Owners do seem to make excuses for them that they wouldn't for a Chinese branded bike at under half the price.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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Sload
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| Posted: 22:08 - 22 Nov 2013 Post subject: |
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| Rogerborg wrote: | As I understand it, the carbed CG pushrod lump was done over by Euro 3 emissions. Honda turned a problem into an opportunity and got their Indian subsidiary to design a new bike from the ground up.
I think they understand the market perfectly. The CBF125 is neck and neck with the YBR as the UK's best selling bike, despite a laundry list of common issues: Friday finish, corrosion, fuel pump/tank lining, running dry and seizing. That Honda reputation goes a long way: MCN still have the CBF rated at 4 stars, again despite admitting that their test bike rusted up a treat in short order. Owners do seem to make excuses for them that they wouldn't for a Chinese branded bike at under half the price. |
Has a poke and found this little gem on MCN, not sure if sarcasm or not 
Good little bike
I brought the CBF 125 2009 model second hand. It's my first bike and it's a pretty good little bike. Looks ok not the best looking 125 available but not bad either and doesn't look to fast for it's actually performance. I'm 18 stone and this bike still pulls me along at 60 - 65 mph quite easily and on dual carriage ways will happily do 70 mph on a striaght but doesn't like up hills. Again it's not the fastest 4 stroke 125 out there but it does the job and being really good with it's fuel consumption it's excellent for commuting. I have owened the bike for nearly 2 years now and got it with 11,000 miles on the clock and have took that up to 40,000 in that time.
Havn't really had much problems in the first year except minor things like the indicater reley and a cold start issue which turned out to be the tappets were too tight. In really hot weather the piston started slapping and brought a second hand engine with 7,000 miles on the clock as i couldn't get the barrel rebored etc in time for a week away on holiday to the east coast which i wanted to do on the bike. it got me there and back just fine but at 10,000 miles the second engine's bottom end bearing went so now it's the mixture of the two but now the exhaust is smoking way too much. i've also had problems with the rectifier and alternator also burnt out on the origanal engine but considering the millage it isn't too bad.
In terms of handling the bike is excellent. Seeing other reviews by owners i don't know what they're on about. That said i have got the contigo continental tyres on it the standard tyres i've heard arn't very good but the bike already had contigo tyres on it when i brought it so i have no experience with the origanal tyres. But otherwise the bike handles fine i've even leaft 500cc bikes through twisty roads and cars which every the slowest cars will out do the CBF. I've even grounded the pegs in my first few months of riding and not knowing how to do it properly. It will easily lean that far to grind the pegs and doesn't feel uneasy at all. Brakes are also superb on the bike not too agressive but good enough to stop the bike quickly without locking the wheels up. The riding posistion isexcellent for slow riding turns.
In conclusion the CBF 125 is a good 125cc bike for learner bikes. Really good on the fuel and if good tyres are fitting handling is great too. Should be pretty realiable if you service it regularly like most bikes although high millage like mine and a few problems start poping up. Also don't ride in the really hot weather either 28c +. Otherwise an excellent little 125cc bike for learners and commuters.
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Rogerborg
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-Matt-
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Piercee100
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| Posted: 10:32 - 23 Nov 2013 Post subject: |
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CG's were great in the day as something cheap to run and ride on the cheap and when it got too worn out, just spend £300 on another one. I think their image comes from the fact that they were always available and ran okay for cheap. 10-20 years on and that reputation for always seeming to run has created an image of immortality forcing some pretty unrealistic prices for rough shite so they're no longer a viable option (The Chinese have taken over here).
The CBF doesnt fit the same CG mentality as something you leave out in the rain, drop, run through the woods, fail to maintain or leave as that desperate back up when your other bike's battery is flat due to (earlier) CG's having a kick start! Can you imagine treating an old CBF anything like that with its FI and plastic panels? Not so easy to maintain with string. It will sell due to Honda's image but it is nowhere near the CG's simplistic durability.
I would say the YBR sells partly due to its Honda CG naked simple looks and Yamaha's own success in previous models but even the quality of those can be pretty dire as anybody that's had to replace rear swing arm bushes come 1st MOT time can tell you! Mind you, I hated the YBR for being so vibey but that is nothing compared to my brothers CG that regularly has bits falling off due to engine vibration. Again, the people who spend money on a YBR are generally not the sort of people who would treat they're purchase anyway near how many old CG's were treated.
It's kinda like how I can vouch how tough little C90's are due to killing one in my youth, running round some woods and coming off it as it went over the side of a quarry and listening to the engine jammed on full throttle. It was still running flat out two hours later until it eventually ran out of petrol. Again, due to reputations like this that C90 prices have also gone a bit silly.
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Rides: Honda H100a (Retired), VT500e (Sold), Kawasaki ZX400 (sold), Kawasaki GT550 (Sold), Suzuki Inazuma (Daily), Honda CD185t (Broken), LML Star 2t (Last run edition). |
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Teflon-Mike
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Posted: 12:04 - 23 Nov 2013  Post subject: Re: Bike history, when did CG lose out to YBR? |
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| map wrote: | When I started this bike lark the Honda CG was THE default learner tool.
Now it is the YBR that is the must have bike for learners.
When and how did Honda lose the plot?
Just curious, I haven't been reading bike press. Will it have anything to do with EU emission regs? |
When I started this biking lark... the default learner tool was a Honda 250N!
CG came to the fore in the mid 90's, when they imposed the mimumum capacity limit for test-bikes.
Up till then, the default learner tool, since the 125 learner-laws came in, in '82 was a 100cc two stroke. As fast and as powerful as the learner-laws allowed, they were in a lower insurance bracket.
The Four-stroke CG, was almost unheard of in the UK till then; no-one wanted a slow, sluggish, ungainly four-stroke commuter that needed more maintenence than a cheaper to own and easier to lice with 100; and if you REALLY had to have a four-stroke; Honda's rival, over-head cam C90 and CB100 both had as much go, just as much ecconomy, and fell into the lower insurance bracket.
It was schools who started buying CG125's in the mid 90's, to replace their 100cc two-strokes as CBT bikes; as any student that wanted to go on and test with them, couldn't do it in a 100 anymore.
That put bikes on the second hand market; and started the cult of the CG... which lasted until they took them out of the catalogue, I think 2003? The push-rod motor basically relegated by emmission regulations.
At that point, the 'suggestion' you cant go wrong with a CG started to stale. The pool of cheap decent machines available started to dwindle, and what bikes there were held value on legacy reputation; meaning they generally became less 'safe' bets and less bike for your money.
Meanwhile, introduction of the YBR, plugged the gap. Prices uninflated by CG 'legend', the pool of available bikes, not tainted by being dwindling out of production model; and actually boosted by being reletively young, the pool all still reasonably fresh and useful.
CBF successor, is head on rival to the YBR, and ought to have carried on where the CG left off; except fuel injected from the off, whilst YBR's were carbed until I think 2007; long-term commuters were put off by the idea that they were less DIY maintenance freindly, and the early reliability issue reports.
But; Honda have market share and market presence; and can still shift units on the Honda name alone, and are doing so with the CBF.
As far as the plot goes.... Honda have always been a bit err... bizarre... is the best word I can think of!
In the mid 80's there wan an MCN report, Honda were rationalising thier listings. At the time, they apparently offered more distinct different models of sub 125cc Learner-Legal than Yamaha, Suzuki & Kawasaki between them had motorcycles of ANY capacity in their entire catalogues! Aparently they offered more 50cc mopeds, than Kawasaki had bikes of any capacity, and they made more different mopeds than all other manufacturers put together!
BASICALLY, it was the result of an agressive marketing policy; If ANY-ONE made a bike for a niche market... Honda would design a competitor for it...
And that was the limit of thier grasp of the Plot for a very long time; particularly in the '80's, when they were pushing the frontiers trying to keep up in the developing big-bike market, and they really didn't pay that much attension to the lightweights; provided the Cub Step-Through stayed ahead in the sales figures....
I mean... in 1982, HOW WRONG did they get it, pinning everything they had on the CB125 Super-Dream, expecting to sell as many of them as they had 250N's?
Seriously, going by frame numbers against registration letters, they were still flogging CB125's in the UK from the first batches made in 1981/2, as late as 1986, and I suspect that they were probably dealer pre-registrations to shift them!
Sochiro Honda didn't like two-strokes, so they didn't get the attension; and at that time, two-strokes were where it was at.
Yamaha had released the imortal RD125 and DT125LC; Kawasaki, stepped back into the frey with the AR125 and KMX... and Honda had the lack-lustre and over-priced Super-Dream and XL125.
Took them almost two years to catch back up and offer the MBX and MTX two-strokes... which were barely any better liked, being too expensive, and less de-restrictable. Took another two years to launch the likewise less than well recieved, made in italy NS125, and then another four years before they got thier act together and made the NSR125....
Their handle on the Euro Learner market has always been 'slight', their market share and dominance, gained through shot-gun targeting of buyers, with incredibly diverse range of 'response' models, and good high penetration, high profile marketing.
The CG125... re-written in Corporate history as if it had ALWAYS been, since creation in 1977... was pretty much a fluke to begin with!
Significantly designed for 3rd world markets, where the Over-Head-Cam CB125 single was failing to gain acceptance due to maintenence demands... it was planned to produce it in Brazil almost from the start, part of a partnership with Brazilian government against imports... and it was that 'Deal' that actually saw the CG stay in production, to fullfill Brazilian demand and honour the Goverment contract, that basically GAVE them two ruddy great factories, when the bludy thing DIDN'T actually sell as expected in Asia!
There is actually suggestion that, the second Brazilian facility, around 1980, rather than being filled up with machinary to make other Honda products Brazil wanted; I think the horticultural stuff; lawn-mowers, rotorvators and the like... it was filled up with excess production CG's, Honda couldn't flog else where! Eventually shipped out and sold at a loss, to keep the Brazilian lines running; basically on the Brazilian Government subsidy of having paid for Hondas plant there!
Then serendipiteousely finding a 'use' when it met the minimum 120cc displacement limit for a UK test bike, while being notionally easier to look after than the OHC singles, if not as easy as the commuter two-strokes, unfortunately being phased out due to euro-emmissions, in the mid 90's.
CBF, then, probably actually marks Honda getting something of a 'grip' on the market, rather than loosing the plot; and making a slightly better 'targeted' model, in a rationalised range.
Interesting to note that at last look, they had dropped the V-Twin 125's of Shaddow cruiserette and Veradaro adventure squirt, The CG engined XR trail bike, and the OHC motored, too embarassed to be a Motoard, City-Fly.
Curiousely leaves them with NO Learner legal 'Trail' bike in the catalogue... while the only 125 in the 'off-road' line up is a child's scrambler.
Rationalised range has the CBF125, CBR125, and nice to know they can still be bizzare, the Fugly fusion little wheel, pit-bike motored, hornetesque, super-motordy, 'thing' the MSX?!?!
Still got a fair number of 125cc scooters in the catalogue; but then they apparently sell three learner legal scooters for every learner legal motorbike, or something like that; they have.... five 125 models, and two sub 125 learner-legals. Still pretty rationalised compared to the hundred or more they had in the same sector a few years back, and the hundreds MCN reported they had in the Learner-Legal line up in the 80's!
The Plot? Well, CBR600F, retails for seven and a half grand; even the naked CB500F twin, retails for just over four and a half grand... barely any more than a Yamaha YZF-R125..... Honda's flag-ship CBR125, at three and a half grand then, is a far cry from the aspirational machine an NSR125 was in its day; a bit of very diligent product engineering, built down to a price and up to the lowest possible acceptable quality level.
The Money Be in Big Bikes.
Fact that Honda have ANYTHING left in the Learner-Legal catalogue, has to be down to the lesson of the Brit-Bike Industry retreating into the fat markets of the larger capacities, and loosing the entry market to the upstarts, and some dedicated perseverance to keep a foot in the market that made them... or at least a shoe, perhaps, given that these little bikes are made pretty much 'out of house' with only the Honda name to carry them through the Honda franchise infrastructure....
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 14:58 - 23 Nov 2013 Post subject: |
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| MC wrote: | | Teflon-Mike wrote: | Curiousely leaves them with NO Learner legal 'Trail' bike in the catalogue... while the only 125 in the 'off-road' line up is a child's scramble. |
Still don't understand this, I see loads of XR 125's about, and they're still popular & sought after. If they had a 125 CRF it would probably sell really well, assuming it didn't cost 4 grand like the 250 ver.
That was one of your more interesting & coherent lectures Tef, still a bit too long mind  |
Got to say I was surprised; especially as in Europe, traditionally dirt bikes have always been the more popular.
But.... in the last eighteen months, they have created an almost completely new catalogue of A2 bikes, to replace out-going CB500 twin....
I wonder whether at the moment, the range is a little skinny, depleted of outgoing models not meeting latest Euro Emmissions, the gaps not yet plugged with successors.... dont sound very Honda, but, could be they are playing thier old game of watching what their competitors come up with, and then trying to match it.
CBR125's just had a make-over to look more YZF-R125 ish.... perhaps there's a CBR125 engined CRF125 waiting in the wings? Maybe an air-cooled CBF125 motored poverty spec trail-tool; a new XR-F or something? Or something completely different!
I suspect that the Veradaro & Shaddow were knocked on the head due to production costs and emmissions.... BUT if you check the MCN reviews of them from when they were still available new; show-room prices were in the four-grand bracket, scaring YZF-R125 territory... the Shaddow strangely the most expensive; curiousely though they sold in numbers beyond what the exhorbitant price tag would suggest was tolerable, given that their 500 Twins are barely any more expensive.... which would imply that the 125 sector can still tolerate the sticker prices and be lucrative..... maybe they are working on a new water-cooled emmission meeting parallel 125 twin for a new range, like the 500's?
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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The Voice of Reason
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| Posted: 18:50 - 23 Nov 2013 Post subject: |
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No. It is you comparing apples to oranges.
Your bandit is a slow and heavy commuter bike.
Your RGV250 is a focused lightweight sports bike.
You could try comparing a CBR250RR to your RGV, but that wouldn't be fair as they are a chunk slower.
So to compare similar bikes on reliability, you would need to get one of these 19krpm CBRs, then tune it AND lose some weight.
They see which is a better commuter for reliability.
I've used a RS250 for commuting for a bit and didn't find a problem. They aren't particularly unreliable if looked after and don't have nasty servicing.
I compared very similar bikes.
What 4 stroke dirt bikes of a similar nature to your 2 strokes have you owned?
How did you gain this knowledge 'for a fact'?
Have a look at the KTM service manuals.
I just did.
The 4 strokes have 15/30/45 hour service intervals.
The 2 strokes have 20/40/80 hour service intervals.
These bikes are as similar as you can get while being 2 and 4 stroke. They are intended for the same use with the same design philosophy and a lot of non-engine components shared.
Are you suggesting KTM have got it wrong because 'you know for a fact' that the 2 strokes are 'more maintenance heavy'?
 best to check your facts before claiming them as such .
If you think the '2 strokes are still around' just because the 4 strokes can be expensive when they break, I'd suggest you don't understand the market place.
The 2 strokes are still around because they are lighter with less rotating mass and often more low down power. |
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bikersupermot...
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The Voice of Reason
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| Posted: 19:03 - 23 Nov 2013 Post subject: |
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Yep; I believe all the bikes you've got have been discontinued  .
(Also, none are competition machines.) |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 12 years, 32 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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