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125cc Supermoto - 2 Stroke goodness

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binge
Emo Kiddy



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 00:47 - 03 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's very similar in size to my old 2t pit bike build Smile

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13015613_266020667082299_143406171765290261_n.jpg?oh=d68dd82b40ebba29d48fe7e58222902b&oe=584A8486


I'm 5'10

It's got a lower seat height than a CBR400 (Which are tiny sports bikes)
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binge
Emo Kiddy



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 18:22 - 03 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14203250_336976099986755_7983572379986341295_n.jpg?oh=d8abe41f86140642968f5d8fb7e56c67&oe=5884D39F


The 2-stroke is gonna be camping up for a couple of weeks as I'm taking the caravan away to Wales.
Stopping off at Kinsham Raceway mid-week (It'd be rude not to seeing as I'm gonna be 15 mins away).
So the Mini-Pit is coming along for the holiday. Razz

Raring to go. Can't bloody wait. Not rode at Kinsham for about 6 years. The last time I was there, I was on the TZR pit bike, having rings run around me by Richard Cooper and Barry Burrell. Laughing


https://youtu.be/y9QVW_xCQmk
[/list]
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- Honda XL125S - CBR400 NC29 - VFR400 NC30 - CBR400 NC29 - TL1000R - TeeZeR Pit! - Bandit 12 - YZF450 - LuckyMX125 Pit! - Demon X XLR 140 Pit!
- Stomp KZ 160 Pit! - Demon X D-link 140 Pit! - CRF50F Mini-Pit - MonsterMoto 155cc MiniSM - Honda Chaly 150cc - Yamaha 98' R1
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binge
Emo Kiddy



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 21:51 - 16 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shoved a headlight in the numberboard

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/14324433_344062089278156_5708830747525054276_o.jpg


And as recommended by a friend, I've gone huge on the main jet. 185. Which is about right for a VHSB34 with a pod filter so I read.

See what happens.
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- Stomp KZ 160 Pit! - Demon X D-link 140 Pit! - CRF50F Mini-Pit - MonsterMoto 155cc MiniSM - Honda Chaly 150cc - Yamaha 98' R1
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binge
Emo Kiddy



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 23:04 - 22 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I think it's probably going to be the end of the line for this Italian piece of shit.

Bought a Touareg 125 exhaust on ebay, thinking it may run better with an early pre-restriction pipe.

Pipe wont fit the bike, at all. So I've re-fitted the MX unit, with proper manifold springs to eliminate any blowing at higher RPM.

Up-jetted to a 185 main.

Road tested.

No different, at all.


So I can just from a 140, to a 185 main jet, and it behaves no differently at all.
Surely no bike can be this versatile on jetting?

Is it likely that the Main jet function on the carb is not working?
Or is my trail of thought waaaay off here?

I just cant how, at WOT, it is no different, regardless of main jet size. Laughing


Either way, I've had enough of it for now.
It's gonna either be broken for parts, or spend another 3 years buried in teh back of my garage until I can be bothered to waste another 6 months playing around with it.
____________________
- Honda XL125S - CBR400 NC29 - VFR400 NC30 - CBR400 NC29 - TL1000R - TeeZeR Pit! - Bandit 12 - YZF450 - LuckyMX125 Pit! - Demon X XLR 140 Pit!
- Stomp KZ 160 Pit! - Demon X D-link 140 Pit! - CRF50F Mini-Pit - MonsterMoto 155cc MiniSM - Honda Chaly 150cc - Yamaha 98' R1
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stevo as b4
World Chat Champion



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: 06:55 - 23 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Binge.
Sorry for the performance nightmare your having mate.

Please don't give up on it yet. I reckon on selling the Toureg pipe and any other spare bits you have, and investing £50 on an hour or so's dyno time. A good place will be able to tell you so much about what is going on with the motor, and at what speeds its running well or not etc.

Jetting with the AFR probe up its bum will be easier and they will be able to tell if there are any rpm or ignition system restrictions kicking in. It's got to be easier than guessing what the hell is going on, as ive been there myself and pulled hair out over it all too.

I wouldn't spend another penny on it until you have been to the dyno and got some definite causes of the issues your having, or have proved it to be a particular part like the CDI box etc.

Good luck with it, and a photo or vid of her on the dyno will of course be mandatory! Thumbs Up
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 14:21 - 23 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

185 seems way too large a main jet.

I would agree it is worth dynoing it and seeing what everything is doing. With a 34mm carb it should be ~25% (or a bit more) up on power on the TZR engine you had, so something is very wrong.

On the dyno you could try a different exhaust. Doesn't really need to be attached in a rideable position. So maybe an RS125 exhaust for example.

But do check the ignition timing with a strobe light throughout the rev range.

All the best

Katy
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Fin
World Chat Champion



Joined: 27 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: 19:14 - 23 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't give up! at most give up on the engine and put a mighty NSR engine in there Wink , turn the rear wheel and tyre round then get a new brake mount and you're sorted.

Exhaust does seem like a likely issue, I'd recommend getting one made up by the Portuguese guy if if possible.

Just to confirm it is getting to WOT.
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stevo as b4
World Chat Champion



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PostPosted: 19:32 - 23 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't see how a de-restricted MX125 pipe can be so bad or causing a complete lack of revving on Binge's beast though.

The pipe if it really is open inside with no hidden restriction plates etc, should work well enough with a Rotax 122/123 or even a 127. It won't be so mismatched that it can't rev to 9000-10000 with some interest.

The problem is that without being on a dyno with the fueling and load/speed monitored you don't know what other things are getting in the way, or if it's fueling and sparking properly through the Rev range and at different throttle positions, or if something is shorting the spark or frothing up the fuel or similar.

I had a baseline dyno run with a fueling check for £25 on my KMX, and I've now got something to compare with any changes I make to see what difference things make.

An NSR engine or a one off pipe from half way around the world are not going to help anyone.
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binge
Emo Kiddy



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 22:54 - 23 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fuel tank was also leaking.
Tonight, I have decided to have another poke at it.

Stuck a new tank on.

Fitted the 140 main jet back in the carb.
Put to all together, and took for a spin.

It defo 100% runs better on the 140 jet, than it did with the 185.
Not loads better, but certainly an improvement.

The 16t sprocket makes it more ridable, but it still falls out of the power band when climbing up a hill, even in 4th or 3rd gear, unless I am carrying quite a lot of speed.


16:41 sprockets, with the 13" wheel, is the current set up, but it feels like the gearing is still too tall.
It's got great mid-range on it, and when moving, it will carry some great speed. Was indicating well over 60mph a few times tonight, in like 4th and 5th gear.
It's not really got the grunt to pull 6th gear very often, unless going down hill.
Dyno is something I want to do.

Who is local to Medway?

It's TAXed, MOT'd and insured. Somebody is welcome to take it for a ride and give me an honest opinion. Am I just being greedy for power than a Rotax 123 cant make?
____________________
- Honda XL125S - CBR400 NC29 - VFR400 NC30 - CBR400 NC29 - TL1000R - TeeZeR Pit! - Bandit 12 - YZF450 - LuckyMX125 Pit! - Demon X XLR 140 Pit!
- Stomp KZ 160 Pit! - Demon X D-link 140 Pit! - CRF50F Mini-Pit - MonsterMoto 155cc MiniSM - Honda Chaly 150cc - Yamaha 98' R1
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 10:20 - 24 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see how it can easily mess with your head when it's not running right. But I don't think weather it's a Rotax 122 or 123 makes any appreciable difference.

Logic suggests it should be a fair bit faster accelerating and much lighter than the bike it's pipe is from. Have you worked out the gearing say compared to an MX125? But again on such small wheels it should have far lower gearing than the MX with reasonable sprocket sizes.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 13:14 - 24 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

A Rotax 123 engine is pokey. Indeed in standard RS125 trim pokier than the 122. They were generally set up for high octane fuel as standard, but an issue there would be more likely to burn through the piston than just lose you performance.

Realistically expect high 20s hp from it at the back wheel if running right. Way more than a TZR125, and enough to push an RS to within a gnats of a true 100mph on the flat (and a lot more on the speedo Laughing ). Yours is running quite low gearing (probably close to 20% lower gearing), and I would expect it to rev out in top very easily.

140 seems too small a main jet (stock on the RS generally between a 155 and a 160), but something is very wrong when such a massive change is making so little difference. It should get to 8k and take off. If you pin the power valve open (and make sure it is in the right way up - although again the valve in upside down loses a bit of power) then it should really take off around there (as you will have stuff all bottom end power.

Put it this way, my stock RS125 has a managed 100mph indicated, on level fairly ground sitting upright with a pillion. Your bike seems to be struggling to manage 70ish which suggests around 12hp. Massively down on standard.

My guess is still the ignition system tbh although the exhaust is also a good candidate.

One quick test to try. Disconnect the kill switch wire from the coil, tape it up and go for a run. Just in case the ignition or kill switch is breaking down with revs / vibration and earthing out intermittently.

All the best

Katy
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binge
Emo Kiddy



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 16:25 - 27 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried the kill switch thing a while back, it isnt that Sad
Wish it was that simple.

I whipped my carb off today and ran it into a bike shop nearby. The guy in there used to work for Aprilia had has been tuning them for years.
He is claiming that my carb is too big for the engine. Possibly right.
But I'm sure there are Rotax 123s out there running the 34mm carb and are balls out fast.

While it was all apart, we checked exactly what was in the carb.

Main jet - 140 (I have a range of jets up to 185)
Choke jet - 60
Idle jet emulsion tube - 36
Needle - K57 on top clip (leanest)
Slide - 40
Emulsion tube - 266

He was saying on the 28mm carb, there is a kit to 'derestrict' them fully and it includes a different tube.

I'm still not convinced.

Will be checking the timing with a light next week when I borrow one.
But i'm still not sure that's going to be the cause either.

I wish there was somebody local to me I could borrow an RS125 exhaust from for a day.
____________________
- Honda XL125S - CBR400 NC29 - VFR400 NC30 - CBR400 NC29 - TL1000R - TeeZeR Pit! - Bandit 12 - YZF450 - LuckyMX125 Pit! - Demon X XLR 140 Pit!
- Stomp KZ 160 Pit! - Demon X D-link 140 Pit! - CRF50F Mini-Pit - MonsterMoto 155cc MiniSM - Honda Chaly 150cc - Yamaha 98' R1
- Honda Chaly 140cc - Thumpstar 190cc 4v MiniSM - Aprilia RS125 Pit-Bike -
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 21:52 - 27 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

The 123 engines in the RS came with a 28mm carb or a 34mm carb depending on the market and age of the bike. They used a 34mm carb on the Tuareg Rally from about 1989 with the 123 engine (26hp in the UK road tests), with the AF1 Sport having a 34mm carb for 1990 and then the AF1 Futura getting a 34mm carb (but not the proper Sport Pro bikes, although UK Sport Pros got the 34mm carb), and the RS125 had a 34mm carb until the 122 came out for most markets.

Digging out the carb specs for a Futura:-

Main jet = 148
Idle jet = 36
Atomiser tube = DP 266
Needle = K56 on the 3rd groove
Starter jet = 60
Float weight = 9gr
Are screw = 1 turn out

Think the RS used a larger main jet and a K7 needle.

All the best

Katy
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binge
Emo Kiddy



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PostPosted: 13:01 - 03 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

A video of yesterdays track day at Kinsham.
First clip is the 2-stroke getting owned by Jim's YX184 TB. Admittedly, it's a fecking fast pit bike engine, but the Rotax should still destroy one.

The rest of the video is on my Daytona 190cc 4v mini pit.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSjI4CeQk2c&feature=youtu.be
____________________
- Honda XL125S - CBR400 NC29 - VFR400 NC30 - CBR400 NC29 - TL1000R - TeeZeR Pit! - Bandit 12 - YZF450 - LuckyMX125 Pit! - Demon X XLR 140 Pit!
- Stomp KZ 160 Pit! - Demon X D-link 140 Pit! - CRF50F Mini-Pit - MonsterMoto 155cc MiniSM - Honda Chaly 150cc - Yamaha 98' R1
- Honda Chaly 140cc - Thumpstar 190cc 4v MiniSM - Aprilia RS125 Pit-Bike -
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binge
Emo Kiddy



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 18:25 - 03 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://vimeo.com/185350948
____________________
- Honda XL125S - CBR400 NC29 - VFR400 NC30 - CBR400 NC29 - TL1000R - TeeZeR Pit! - Bandit 12 - YZF450 - LuckyMX125 Pit! - Demon X XLR 140 Pit!
- Stomp KZ 160 Pit! - Demon X D-link 140 Pit! - CRF50F Mini-Pit - MonsterMoto 155cc MiniSM - Honda Chaly 150cc - Yamaha 98' R1
- Honda Chaly 140cc - Thumpstar 190cc 4v MiniSM - Aprilia RS125 Pit-Bike -
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 18:52 - 03 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

binge wrote:
The fuel tank was also leaking.
Tonight, I have decided to have another poke at it.

Stuck a new tank on.

Fitted the 140 main jet back in the carb.
Put to all together, and took for a spin.

It defo 100% runs better on the 140 jet, than it did with the 185.
Not loads better, but certainly an improvement.

The 16t sprocket makes it more ridable, but it still falls out of the power band when climbing up a hill, even in 4th or 3rd gear, unless I am carrying quite a lot of speed.


16:41 sprockets, with the 13" wheel, is the current set up, but it feels like the gearing is still too tall.
It's got great mid-range on it, and when moving, it will carry some great speed. Was indicating well over 60mph a few times tonight, in like 4th and 5th gear.
It's not really got the grunt to pull 6th gear very often, unless going down hill.
Dyno is something I want to do.

Who is local to Medway?

It's TAXed, MOT'd and insured. Somebody is welcome to take it for a ride and give me an honest opinion. Am I just being greedy for power than a Rotax 123 cant make?


If you can get hold of a LSU4.2 /4.9 sensor you're welcome to borrow my wideband datalogger to see what the mixture is like on the road.
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a.k.a 'Geri'

132.9mph off and walked away. Gear is good, gear is good, gear is very very good Very Happy
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stevo as b4
World Chat Champion



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: 01:11 - 04 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Binge.

https://youtu.be/REjHs_Ufz2o
This is a link I found to a well sorted Rotax 123 engine'd bike on the dyno. It sounds pretty keen up to 11000rpm.

Having seen your Rotax track day video, it sounds like your bike is still definitely restricted somewhere, and has a good strong low end power delivery, but from the sound alone im guessing it's going flat by 7-8k rpm. I think if you can get the beast to a dyno, they'll be able to see what's going on. It does sound like the ignition timing is backing right off or there's some soft cut rev limiter in the CDI as a deliberate power restriction.

If you try anything else on the dyno, I'd say it should be the CDI you swap, as that's my guess as to why your not seeing it run like the bike in the vid?
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 20:29 - 04 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevo as b4 wrote:

If you try anything else on the dyno, I'd say it should be the CDI you swap, as that's my guess as to why your not seeing it run like the bike in the vid?


The 123 doesn't have a separate cdi, rather a combined coil / cdi unit.

They do fail, and can fail in a way so that they still work at some rpm.

Electrex World seem to have a replacement SEM coil, but also heard (but never checked) that there is another common coil that can be used (Piaggio one from memory)

All the best

Katy
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binge
Emo Kiddy



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 06:41 - 05 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm in two minds whether to run it to a Dyno and spend money replacing shit.
Or just taking the engine out, and putting a 4-banger in there.

The CBR125 engines go pretty well with the 160 kits fitted.


Thinking
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- Honda XL125S - CBR400 NC29 - VFR400 NC30 - CBR400 NC29 - TL1000R - TeeZeR Pit! - Bandit 12 - YZF450 - LuckyMX125 Pit! - Demon X XLR 140 Pit!
- Stomp KZ 160 Pit! - Demon X D-link 140 Pit! - CRF50F Mini-Pit - MonsterMoto 155cc MiniSM - Honda Chaly 150cc - Yamaha 98' R1
- Honda Chaly 140cc - Thumpstar 190cc 4v MiniSM - Aprilia RS125 Pit-Bike -
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Polski
L Plate Warrior



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PostPosted: 12:40 - 05 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep it Yamaha min!

Another tzr powered pit gets my vote everytime! Still dying to build one myself ha

Or you've got the wr125/r125 engines, They'd both still go alrite in a wee pitbike! Especially with the 183cc kit bolted on!

Unsure if you'd get them in a standard pitbike frame though they've got quite high cylinders if i remember right
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stevo as b4
World Chat Champion



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PostPosted: 14:03 - 05 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everyone will have their own opinions it's natural, but seeing as you spent so much time and effort re-working the frame to get the Rotax to fit and not just that, you've got it all set up for a RHS final drive, it would cost you alot of money and time to fit any other engine now. Also you built the Rotax up as a fresh motor so you should get some use of the new internals, or its a bit of a waste of money and alot of waste of your efforts too.

I don't think anyone can 100% say what it is that's stopping it performing except a a dyno operator logging what's going on. It sounds restricted though, and as you and Katy said a 30bhp+ two stroke 125 when running right should be savage and pretty mad at whatever rpm it hits the power band.

Its probably something simple that's holding it back that's just not obvious to see, which is why I think it's electrical. I know you've probably spent a real fortune on this now, but if you can get it running how it should, then it should make it worthwhile in my opinion.

If it was the CDI or coil unit, and a new one was the answer I'd look at the price first. An example is a KMX CDI is £270 brand new, but an Ignitec programmable unit is about £125 I think. If you do go for one of these aftermarket units, I've got the pc software disc and programming link cable you can borrow to set it up with ok.

Don't ask me how to do it or anything to do with software though as I'm totally clueless. Laughing
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Kickstart
The Oracle



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PostPosted: 23:22 - 05 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

Don't 4 stroke it. It would be a lot of work for something that would either be far slow, or a bit slower and less reliable.

You can get aftermarket coils for the SEM ignition.

All the best

Katy
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binge
Emo Kiddy



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 12:09 - 07 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want another big SM now. Tempted to sell and buy a 450f
____________________
- Honda XL125S - CBR400 NC29 - VFR400 NC30 - CBR400 NC29 - TL1000R - TeeZeR Pit! - Bandit 12 - YZF450 - LuckyMX125 Pit! - Demon X XLR 140 Pit!
- Stomp KZ 160 Pit! - Demon X D-link 140 Pit! - CRF50F Mini-Pit - MonsterMoto 155cc MiniSM - Honda Chaly 150cc - Yamaha 98' R1
- Honda Chaly 140cc - Thumpstar 190cc 4v MiniSM - Aprilia RS125 Pit-Bike -
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Kickstart
The Oracle



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PostPosted: 11:43 - 08 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

You are 99% there with building it and getting it sorted. 99% likely something very simple.

All the best

Katy
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