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| LordShaftesbu... |
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LordShaftesbu...
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 Posted: 12:56 - 06 Aug 2010  Post subject: Police 'smash pensioner's car' |
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| tatters |
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tatters
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| Posted: 13:03 - 06 Aug 2010 Post subject: |
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Another prime example of the police acting like thugs again.
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| ian789 |
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ian789
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| Posted: 13:04 - 06 Aug 2010 Post subject: |
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Kickstart
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| GhostRider |
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GhostRider
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| Silver |
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Silver
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| Posted: 13:28 - 06 Aug 2010 Post subject: |
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What, posted in the wrong forum with extremely vague "Watching this will make you mad!" title? Tsk, how did he not spot it and why didn't he read every post on all the forums before posting this one?!  |
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TQ
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Kickstart
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| pa_broon74 |
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pa_broon74
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| TQ |
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Kickstart
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| Kris |
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Kris
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Kickstart
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| Posted: 14:36 - 06 Aug 2010 Post subject: |
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| Mister James |
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Mister James
I want to believe!
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Posted: 14:40 - 06 Aug 2010  Post subject: |
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| Kris wrote: |
Much like Menezes 'jumping a barrier' with 'wires dangling from his clothes'..
Utter horseshit.  |
I remember watching the news coverage live.
Members of the public who witness him described the above - as well as a heavy unseasonal jacket - hours or days before the police released any details.
It turned out not to be true - but I watched civilians claim it live on the BBC. Turns out the public can lie/see what they want to see too.
On topic: The video was released by the defence solicitor, if the collision with the PC was shown then I doubt very much that they would've released that bit.
He was found not guilty of it so fair enough - that doesn't mean it didn't happen; a defence for failing to stop after an accident is that you weren't aware of the collision. It's credible that a dozy 70 yr old driving a massive 4x4 could hit a person (without causing injuries) at slow speed without noticing it.
The male made off from police for 17 minutes, ignoring a police car on Blues for that entire time because he thought he was 'getting a police escort home' - from behind, and because you're so important? Yeah, right!
He made comments about his medical condition and being fit to drop at any time - in which case, I'd rather he wasn't driving a 2 tonne Ranger Rover on a public road, thanks very much.
Smashing windows (side to access the keys/driver, windscreen to block their vision) is a standard technique used against drivers who make off - his age shouldn't be a factor. You are supposed to be as aggressive and dynamic as possible while doing it, in order to dominate the suspect and bring the matter to a speedy conclusion. I've no doubt that adrenaline added to the mix as well - that's a human physiological response to excitement (and being run over!) that even evil cynical cops have little defence against.
It certainly isn't criminal damage if used lawfully to apprehend a suspect who has committed (several) criminal offences and shown a propensity to make off. People running from the police generally have something to hide (some do it for fun, the cheeky scamps) which is something the the officers probably bore in mind as well.
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Kickstart
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| Kris |
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Kris
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| Posted: 15:10 - 06 Aug 2010 Post subject: |
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| Mister James wrote: |
I remember watching the news coverage live. |
Apologies. I forgot the 'anonymous police source' that claimed he was a rapist.
From another site:
"Not to mention, months and months later, the baseless accusation planted by the police in the media that Jean Charles de Menezes was a rapist -- based on the claim of a woman who, after seeing his face on the television for six months, decided that he looked like the man who raped her some years before. Never mind that such belated identifications by a victim in a traumatic episode are highly suspect, and that Jean Charles de Menezes had not yet arrived in the country at the time of the reported rape (and, for that matter, how, even if true, any of this would have even partially justified police actions at Stockwell station). Instead of acting as a competent and professional police organization, quietly waiting for DNA evidence (which of course absolved him), the police immediately pushed the story through the usual media sewer lines. Many bloggers still profess it to be true, apparently not having seen the tiny press corrections. The police disinformation campaign against Jean Charles de Menezes was no 24-hour cockup in the midst of a desperate search for terrorists. The claim that it was is just one more lie from Sir Ian Blair. It was a full-tilt demonization campaign, remarkably similar to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police campaign against Maher Arar and Rudy Giuliani's vilification campaigns against Patrick Dorismond and other victims of police killings in New York."
Police smear campaign. Simple. 
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| Mister James |
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Mister James
I want to believe!
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Posted: 15:18 - 06 Aug 2010  Post subject: |
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| Kickstart wrote: |
So why waste half a minute trying to smash a window without even checking to see if the door is open?
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Quite possibly red mist - or perhaps because he'd made off from police, hit an officer, failed to stop for 17 mins and then sat in the car without attempting to get out, they assumed it was locked.
Or maybe they could see the little lock thing was down.
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That is for a court to decide not the police. It is criminal damage unless they have a lawful excuse, and the act doesn't give anything like shock an awe as being a lawful excuse.
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No, if the police and CPS charge a person with the offence of criminal damage, it is for the court to make a judgement on the facts presented to them.
This has not happened here, as criminal damage does not apply at all.
Sect. 17 of PACE 1984 - power of entry to premises (includes vehicle) to effect an arrest for various offences, including failing to stop for police
Sect. 117 of PACE 1984 - gives a constable the power to use reasonable force to carry out any PACE power that does not specifically require the person's permission.
As with members of the public who make an arrest or defend themselves or their property, reasonable force is measured by what the user believed or knew at the time of the incident.
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| Mister James |
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Mister James
I want to believe!
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| Posted: 15:26 - 06 Aug 2010 Post subject: |
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| Kris wrote: | | Mister James wrote: |
I remember watching the news coverage live. |
Apologies. I forgot the 'anonymous police source' that claimed he was a rapist.
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I'm not quite sure how your story invalidates what I saw - well, lets be honest, it doesn't. Several civilians who had nothing to do with the police swore blind on national television minutes or hours after the incident that they'd seen wires/heavy jacket/sweaty terrorists.
| Quote: |
From another site:
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Which site?
| Quote: |
"Not to mention, months and months later, the baseless accusation planted by the police in the media that Jean Charles de Menezes was a rapist --
Police smear campaign. Simple. |
Not sure the police can be blamed for some loony woman wanting to cash in on all the fracas. I imagine it was pretty upsetting for the family to have his name dragged through the mud.
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| Kickstart |
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Kickstart
The Oracle
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| Posted: 15:39 - 06 Aug 2010 Post subject: |
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| Mister James wrote: | Quite possibly red mist - or perhaps because he'd made off from police, hit an officer, failed to stop for 17 mins and then sat in the car without attempting to get out, they assumed it was locked.
Or maybe they could see the little lock thing was down. |
None of which are really an excuse for smashing up a car. Watch the video and he runs straight in to smash the window.
| Mister James wrote: | No, if the police and CPS charge a person with the offence of criminal damage, it is for the court to make a judgement on the facts presented to them.
This has not happened here, as criminal damage does not apply at all.
Sect. 17 of PACE 1984 - power of entry to premises (includes vehicle) to effect an arrest for various offences, including failing to stop for police
Sect. 117 of PACE 1984 - gives a constable the power to use reasonable force to carry out any PACE power that does not specifically require the person's permission.
As with members of the public who make an arrest or defend themselves or their property, reasonable force is measured by what the user believed or knew at the time of the incident. |
Sounds pretty much like an abuse of a law designed for other purposes, using last resort powers as routine first response. The first gives them permission to enter (so nothing about criminal damage), but the second specifies "reasonable force" and defaulting to damaging property does seem to be in any way reasonable. As such criminal damage seems a reasonable charge.
While reasonable force is what the users believes at the time of the incident, if someone has been trained to default to damaging property (which doesn't seem to be reasonable) then it would seem that those who trained or authorised them have committed Conspiracy to Cause Criminal Damage.
Attacking the windscreen at the same time as the door is being attacked for access showst that the windscreen was not being used for power of entry, so almost certainly that is criminal damage.
All the best
Keith
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| Skudd |
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Skudd
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arry
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Kickstart
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| MonkeyKnuckle |
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MonkeyKnuckle
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| Posted: 21:30 - 06 Aug 2010 Post subject: |
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It's probably because most cars nowadays lock the doors automatically when you get to 10-20mph, I know mine do and that's in a 7 year old Seat.
It only takes a second to floor it and take off again so the Police can either use that second trying to open the door (which probably would be locked in a fancy Land Rover like that) or they can shock the driver by smashing his window.
The fact of the matter is he ran from the Police and therefore they are going to do whatever they can to stop him. This probably happens every day of the week to young chavs and no one bats an eye lid, just because he's 70 doesn't mean he is above the law.
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 15 years, 209 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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