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Rogerborg
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 Posted: 08:24 - 03 Apr 2014  Post subject: CB750F or CB650 SC-C Nighthawk? |
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Both 1983, both in good condition, same MOT length, mileage, 750 is asking a few hundred £ more but I'm considerably richer than yow so that's not really an issue. WeMoto has plenty of parts for both.
Which one for a summer commuter and leisurely ride outs, and why?
Disclosure: I prefer the looks of the 650 Nighthawk because I am a tart, and will need persuading that the 750 is a better option.
Cheers, chaps.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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Teflon-Mike
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Posted: 09:31 - 03 Apr 2014  Post subject: |
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Both 83? Well, then, the 750 will be the DOHC CB750FII, last incarnation of the original CB750'Four' in 'Euro-sport' styling.
A lot of these are commanding silly money prices, as the earlier SOHC and wire wheel models prices have gone through the roof in the classic world. But as you're richer than me, hey I dont care.
They were accused by standards of thier day of being a bit porky and a tad under-powered. Air-cooled 8v heads, Suzuki & Kawasaki's offerings had 16v's, and next generation of water cooled bikes about to set new standards were only a year away.
For YOU... have you tried clambering on it? Seats tall and wide.
And they can be a bit unweildy to man handle. Old generator on the end of crank motor, was high in the frame.
Otherwise; to my mind they aren't classic enough in styling or special enough in technology or design to really warrant the classic premium folk seem to be attaching to their price tags these days.
The CB900FII, basically same bike, bored out, slightly different story; and was about the last of the evil-handling, over-powered, air-cooled across the frame four muscle bikes, has a bit more cudos to it; but still not as much as prices they seem to get attached to!
750? In that price range, age range? Best of the bunch was the Kawasaki GPz750 Unitrack. Has, from memory slightly lower, more sculpted seat, and might be nicer erganomically for you, Rog, as well as the better bike, technically.
650 Nighthawk?
Ug. Well, the 'street-standard' CB650 was a bit of a Honda Parts bin mongrel. I think it used the SOHC 750 engine, sleeved down, and then various bits of 750 and 550 to make the smaller bike, mainly to fill gap in the catalogue, when 650 was still a capacity break for insurance, tax or licences, in some markets.
The Nighthawk was basically the CB650 in What at the time was called 'Factory Custom' or US-LTD trim... short rear chocks, ape-hanger bars, stepped seat and a bit of chrome.
83? could be late reg SOHC or early reg DOHC, I have an inkling its on the cusp of model revision. Later DOHC was derived of the 750FII engine, sleeved, I think.
Again, 650 was critasised for being rather over weight, and under-powered; especially the US-LTD, with more metal added and capacity removed.
Lower seat, and shorter shocks didn't do much to make it much more man-handleable either.
Both bikes, BTW, check carefully. Very few US-customs were sold in UK Honda Franchise dealers when current in the catalogue. Most in the country now are US market machines imported 2nd hand in the 90's. A lot of US market 750FII's came over as well.
Personally, I'd not go for either. I already have the CB750F2N, with later 16 valve hydraulic tappet motor, that's by far the better bike, technically; uses more easily obtained 17" radial tyres, benefits from decent CBR600 derived brakes and forks. Looks as 'retro' as the FII in plastic bodywork, with more modern tyres, brakes and suspension, is a lot more predictable and re-assuring to ride. It's more easy to live with, too, with good parts availability, new and used, and commands about half the price in the small adds.
For a Nighthawk? Again, I'd sluff off the 650, and go look for later 750 Nighthawk. Same bike essentially as the F2N, same engine and frame, at least; shorter rear shocks, longer front forks. Main differences are a single disc on the front wheel, rather than twins, and a drum rear brake; then tear-drop tank semi-cruiserified styling. again, a lot more bike for your money, and a lot less money in the small adds; though none official UK imports.
Actually looked at a few of them as post restriction riders for Snowie; they are quite a manageable machine for err, the less leggy rider.
Of the older bikes? For gentle summer commuting and ride-outs? Well you are hinting at the 650. Wouldn't be so stressed and keeping the rain off it would preserve the bright work. But; ride out? Just another cruiserified Yankee customie thing; it wouldn't stand out from more modern cruiserified stuff, and just look 'old' in their company.
750FII? Second generation Com-Stars, Duck-But tail; slab-side tank? Styling was a product of its time, and would bemore 'distinct' in company at modern meet, and be a talking point. Probably the one I would pick, IF I had to choose between the two. Can of armourall, and a lot less elbow grease to keep it shiny, would just be a bonus.
And that's really the crux; same age, same era technology; there's not a lot between them practically in terms of 'livability', its which fits you better, which style you prefer, and which you can get better deal on. 750FII may be 'slightly' more liveable with as genuine UK offering, if the exhausts are rotted, possibly the easier to source a replecement for; bui I know that both will have bits that are near unobtainium...
Personally, I'd not pick either; but you being you, the 650 is I suspect the one you really want your decision endorsing on, and if you get it, sure you'll find the charm in it, and find excuse for its shortcomings.
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Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 09:55 - 03 Apr 2014 Post subject: |
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Cheers. I may surprise you and go with the advice to not get either. The sellers are being a bit Very Reluctant Sale, Answer Me These Questions Three, for starters, and I'm not minded to view either of them as appreciating assets as I'd actually be riding them.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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nowhere.elysium
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| Posted: 10:00 - 03 Apr 2014 Post subject: Re: CB750F or CB650 SC-C Nighthawk? |
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| Rogerborg wrote: | Disclosure: I prefer the looks of the 650 Nighthawk because I am blind |
Tell me, how far do you trust 31-year-old hydraulic valve adjusters?
Of the two, the 750 is the better buy, IMO. Generally cleaner lines, hasn't been 'modified' to keep the American market happy (like the Nighthawk), and it's mechanically simpler. Larger engine = less stress on said engine, so there's a chance it's in better nick internally, too.
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Teflon-Mike
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Posted: 10:46 - 03 Apr 2014  Post subject: |
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| nowhere.elysium wrote: | | Rogerborg wrote: | Disclosure: I prefer the looks of the 650 Nighthawk because I am blind |
Tell me, how far do you trust 31-year-old hydraulic valve adjusters? |
How far would you trust any mechanicals on a 31 year old bike?
The tappets in the air-cooled fours, are saved by mostly being in relatively conservative tuned motors with low ramp rates. most highly tuned was the 84, CBX750, that with 95 claimed bhp was supposed to be the most powerful air-cooled 'four' Honda ever made. quite a nice bike, actually. Had a couple of mates that have had CBX's long term, as in a couple of decades, and never had to spare athought for the tappets. Had my CBX motored CB a decade and again, despsite high miles, little tappy when you first fire it up, but gone before you have it off choke.
Theres other bits of old Honda Cam-Train I would be FAR more concerned about!  This is the era of the 'Knock-Knock-Honda Cam-chain Tensioner Calling" joke!
| nowhere.elysium wrote: | Of the two, the 750 is the better buy, IMO. Generally cleaner lines, hasn't been 'modified' to keep the American market happy (like the Nighthawk) |
Perversely, later 'piggy-back-generator' hydraulic tappet motor, 'Nighthawk, wasn't 'modified' for US market, was designed like that for it. The 92-on F2 'Retro' was actually a modified Nighthawk; sort of de-cruiserifying one, by doing reverse of what they did to make the US-Market Factory Customs.
| Rogerborg wrote: | Cheers. I may surprise you and go with the advice to not get either. The sellers are being a bit Very Reluctant Sale, Answer Me These Questions Three, for starters, and I'm not minded to view either of them as appreciating assets as I'd actually be riding them. |
What three questions, rog?
Appreciating assets? 750 perhaps. I doubt the 650 will ever be much loved in the UK.
650, is a bit of a peculiarity, as said, original model was a bit of a parts bin special, made from small block 550 'four' and big block 750 'four' bits, and the cruiserified as US custom. But, as they evolved more specilised market models, rather than variants; the 'Night Hawk, did become, a distinct model in its own right, rather than a variant.
And at one point, Following Suzuki & Kawasaki's lead offering shaft-drive touring versions of their street bikes; think that at some point the 650 got a shaft drive.
Looking at CMSL, US 82 model year was SOHC motor and chain drive. 84 model, DOHC and shaft.... one your looking at is right between the two; more likely SOHC chain drive, but could be DOHC shaftie. And very different beasties.
Shaftie, as a more dedicated model in its own right; MIGHT be the more 'interesting' as a collectors machine... but equally less viable regular rider.
Give us numbers; how much are they hoping to pry out of your Scotch sporren?
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Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 10:56 - 03 Apr 2014 Post subject: |
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| Teflon-Mike wrote: | What three questions, rog? |
I mean they're nasty, suspicious hobbits and don't want to even tell me where their Precious is until I convince them that I'm not a thieving pikey.
CBF750 eBay
CB650 eBay.
Both expecting too much, both too much hassle to actually buy from.
I can only get bikes that are available, mind, and I'm not getting my passport out to buy a leave-it-in-a-ditch commuter.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 11:18 - 03 Apr 2014 Post subject: |
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That's my thinking, especially as I'll be riding them rather than tucking them under a blanket and hoping to punt them on in a decade.
Posted 12 days ago and no MOT - I like an easy life, ready to ride away is far preferred.
Also, I would like to try an IL4 for a bit, just for variety. I suspect I won't like it, but I'll try anything once.
Except Morris Dancing.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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wr6133
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| Posted: 11:35 - 03 Apr 2014 Post subject: |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 12:05 - 03 Apr 2014 Post subject: |
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https://i.ebayimg.com/t/Gorgeous-Honda-CB-650-SC-C-Nighthawk-/00/s/NTg4WDY3NQ==/z/1ywAAOxyjxlTK1v3/$_58.JPG
Hmm... I dont know.. I think that styling could sort of grow on me.
I mean; its very, they weren't brave enough to go full chrome custom, nor full king & queen seat, or keep it tight flat-track bobber... so tried to sort of fuse all three, in the way only Japs could in them days.
I dont think I could ever call it 'pretty', but in a work of ugly bikes, there are worse; at least it doesn't look like a transformer-toy. Gauche, with scope to expoind on teh subtle interplay of influences, and studied use of pin-striping, and the 'balence' between metal and plastic, teardrop tank and seat, whilst sipping a PIMS, leaning on your croquet mallet, and wondering whether to push it back into the back of the garage again.
Anyhow, its an SOHC chain drive machine... might be good for a few rare engine spares for the folk fixing up SOHC 550 & 750's and expecting five digit values from them.... Gawd I hate the way my mind works at times! I'm a bike saver, not a bike breaker!
Nope; 650 is just a joke at that money.
750? Its not as rediculouse as I it could have been; seen people ask over 3K for them before, on the back of you'd have to pay that for a scruffy SOHC model without wire wheels, twice that for one with chrome mudguards and an MOT. Its probably not too daftly priced... but who knows what's under the shiny paint and plastic?
Curiousely, bottom of the page when I read it was link to a 94 F2N.
https://i.ebayimg.com/t/Honda-CB750-F2N-1994-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/PKMAAOxyeR9THyb-/$_58.JPG
Ten years younger; same mileage; original exhaust, & shocks dealer supplied, with fresh MOT, £25 cheaper. And only ten miles away from me, too. Still too much money though. Ought to be able to pick up a pretty respectable one, privately for a grand. In fact quick search, one up for £1200 ask in Essex. Another, little more care worn, with three days bidding currently at £500, that probably wont go much over £750 if it makes that. Then there's a 92 Nighthawk, in Worcester. Short MOT and needs a little TLC, but £750 ask.
Think you just need to be brave Roger, and risk a visit to Sasanach land...
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| Posted: 16:57 - 03 Apr 2014 Post subject: |
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Its the flat tracker(-esque) back end and seat that I like on the Nighthawk. Bars are too high to really pull it off though.
That 750 F2 looks like a really nice example, apart from the belly pan.
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| Posted: 17:54 - 03 Apr 2014 Post subject: |
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| Posted: 18:43 - 03 Apr 2014 Post subject: |
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| stevo as b4 wrote: | Id say neither and go for a VF750 Magna personally |
It's a brave man that takes one of those on, more fragile than a Ming dynasty vase!
I've been half tempted by a Shite Hawk a couple of times, but research suggests they aren't up to much, certainly not in the early SOHC/chain spec.
As for that CB750, I'm not sure I like the look of that; colour scheme and handlebars suggest it's a non UK model and I believe (but I could be wrong) they were detuned for some markets, making it even more lardy than normal.
If you're going to have one of those, the 900 (or an 1100, if you can find one) was always the one, then and now.
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stevo as b4
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| Posted: 18:59 - 03 Apr 2014 Post subject: |
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Shaft I've just realised in horror what I suggested when I was thinking of the custom bike with the VFR750 engine instead! 
did they do a 900 or 1100cc DOHC nighthawk style bike? I think the 16Valve air cooled Honda's are better value and just as quick std for std as your more pricey/coveted 1000cc Suzuki/Kawasaki Roller bearing crank bikes, with a prettier motor to boot, and more valves for kudos!
If I was wanting a summer laid back rider, I'd probably look at the Yam XJ shafties as well, but my favourite old Jap iron would always be a Yamaha XS 1.1 Midnight special. I think it's a bit of a smokey& the bandit style bike!
back up choice would be the Kawasaki Eliminator 1000, as I like powerful engines in unsuitable frames, and that name just would make you sound like a 1/4m drag race take all comers hero down the pub too!  |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 19:42 - 03 Apr 2014 Post subject: |
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11 days ago. Yes, I'm keeping my eye open for Enfields, but they're either ridiculously over-valued (dealers seem to think they've got an appreciating instant classic), or they go quickly.
One appeared on eBay just up the road from me but was sold literally within an hour, before I could even get in touch with the chap.
There's a W650 come up in Dunfermline, 2002 with just 2850 miles but the chap's started the auction at £2,200 and already had bids retracted so I may want to avoid that before it turns into another TIIME WAISTERS!!!!! rantfest. 
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| Posted: 20:55 - 03 Apr 2014 Post subject: |
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| stevo as b4 wrote: | The CB750 offers nothing really, using a de-tuned CBX750 motor (great motor in the CBX), and a lower spec chassis that's probably more boring than a Zephr 750 etc. |
MCN actually rated the CB the better bike against the Zephyr, it just lacked the image, and was possibly a tad too refined, didn't have the 'rawness' of the Kwak, and new, cost more.
CB-F2 vs CBX? Hmm.... Its a lower 'spec' chassis for sure; but its more modern. CBX has 16" front 18" rear combo in relatively skinny section; F2 has 17" front and rear, taking modern radials. CBX has more sophisticated pro-link back end... great as long as it's in decent nick. Front, err... derigeur for the day TRAC anti-dive forks. CB-F2's unsophisticated twin-shock set up, is a little crude, but its very effective. Swing arms long, and well braced, and on decent rubber, its sure and predictable. CBX was always a little 'iffy' feeling tall and wanting to tip sharply into corners and not liking changes of direction or corrections too much.
Personally, I'd say that the CB is the better handling bike. As stock, possibly a little soggy, but CBX was supposed to be a sporty street-bike, the CB a capable all-rounder. Mines stiffened and tweeked a bit, and I have far more confidence to take liberties with it in the twisties than I ever did on the CBX.
Motor? De-Tuned... you could read that as 'de-rated', but... again, reward for sacrificing that top end power, is a motor that has a lot more mid-range. With its half fairing, CBX could just about nudge 145. Naked CB, isn't so far down, nudging 130, its certainly quick enough, while point-to-point ,CB with more power available more of the time, and the more neutral and predictable handling, probably the quicker, if not the faster bike.
However, neither is a bike you would pick for performance these days, and where the F2 definitely scores is in every-day livability. Simpler mechanics of the F2 mean there's less to need attention, and when it does, generally easier to deal with; and if you need bits, easier to get hold of.
I spent this afternoon wrestling motor out my F2.. BIT of a bastard, BUT... I still remember trying to fit a Neta to three year old CBX for its first MOT, however long ago that would have been... not a nice job either, without having to contend with twenty years of crud and corrosion, and that took just about as long!
Voting with my feet; I have a CB-F2N; I've been offered a few CBX's in the time I have had it. I wouldn't swap. All-round, it's the better 'package'.
| stevo as b4 wrote: | Id say neither and go for a VF750 Magna |
Not a hope in hades. Over Complicated, over weight, over-dresed hand granade!
V65Magna, now, you might tempt me. The original 'Super-Cruiser'; still something of a mechanical liability, BUT... 'space age' digital dash-board, V-motor, with water-cooling, and lots of chromed plastic. Its just SUCH a time capsule of what the Japanese thought america wanted in the 80's.
NOT so sure I would want to ride it... just drag t out the shed from time to time and stare at in wonder.
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 19:29 - 04 Apr 2014 Post subject: |
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Enfield achievement get.
https://i57.tinypic.com/x3zd41.jpg
2008 reg, last of the V8s carbies, all the mods I'd have done myself, 4300 miles, got for within spitting distance of that 2002 asking price.
https://www.virginmedia.com/images/Henry_Winkler_Fonz_290x400.jpg
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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wr6133
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 11 years, 323 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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