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ayresm
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Joined: 27 Apr 2014
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PostPosted: 13:12 - 27 Apr 2014    Post subject: Upgrading from 50cc to... Reply with quote
Hi there,

I'm currently a commute in central London on a de-restricted 50cc moped. I need some advice as I'm planning to upgrade...

I'm saving for a house deposit at the moment and plan to move about 40 miles out of London for a year or so to do this more quickly. To do this cost-effectively (public transport or using my car will be too expensive) I will need to upgrade to a bike capable of commuting the longer distance. My commute will also involve some dual carriageways and a short stretch of the M25, so I want to make sure whatever I get is safe.

So my question is - what sort of bike should I go for? I don't want to shell out more than about £2,000 / £2,500 if possible. Ideally I'd also find one which can hold my work backpack which I often carry with me.

Thanks,

Matt
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weasley
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PostPosted: 13:21 - 27 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
First things first, how old are you and what licence do you have?
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c_dug
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PostPosted: 13:30 - 27 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
40 Miles is a long way out, discounting leave that adds up to over 20,000 miles a year.

IMO you either want a shafty and a big tank, or you want a 125 with ridiculous MPG. If you were looking at half the distance anything up to and including the latest superbikes can make good commuters for various reasons but when you're doing that kind of mileage you want to be able to get on and go every day without thinking about it at all.

The one thing I will point out is that a 50cc scooter (I presume it is a scooter you ride) is probably the easiest two wheeler to get through traffic on, expect almost anything bigger to be more difficult through the city centre. There is a huge difference in the effort required to get my diversion through the traffic in comparison to my SV or the CBR I used to own.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 13:50 - 27 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
As a sole commuting machine? All weathers? And coming from a ped?

I'd consider a scooter. A midi (250 - 400), or even a 125, as long as it's capable of holding 60mph. I got my Burgman for the weather protection, storage and easy riding in stop-start, and I can't fault it on those grounds.

So dull though. Soooo dull. But as a practical commuter, they do make sense.
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ayresm
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PostPosted: 13:51 - 27 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks for the replies...

---

I'm 27, keep renewing a CBT at the moment but intending to complete A2 in the next month or two.

---

Currently live 7 miles out so figure that it adds about 14,500 miles a year. Not sure what sort of fuel efficiency I would get per mile, but my car costs about 16p per mile, so would expect the bike to be more efficient. If this was 10p per mile it would mean increased travel costs of about £120 per month. Rent would drop by £550 so would more than make up for it. But thats just rough calculations.

My concern with a 125 - would it be suitable for sustained dual carriageway use / motorways?
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Tamsin
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PostPosted: 14:10 - 27 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
You are 27, but you are planning on doing an A2? The cost difference to do the full A is negligible and leaves you with no annoying restrictions - why do the A2?
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pinkyfloyd
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PostPosted: 14:21 - 27 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
MissTamsin wrote:
You are 27, but you are planning on doing an A2? The cost difference to do the full A is negligible and leaves you with no annoying restrictions - why do the A2?


Agreed. If you are going to pay A2DAS fees you might as well spend the same money and do full A licence for bikes. Get your theory test done and then do DAS.
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 15:39 - 27 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
ayresm wrote:
I'm 27, keep renewing a CBT at the moment but intending to complete A2 in the next month or two.

Silly boy. Why did you do that? Could have got a full unrestricted licence before Jan last year for price of one repeat CBT course.

Also if 27, why are you doing the A2 45bhp licence? Same course gets you full unrestricted A3?

ayresm wrote:
but my car costs about 16p per mile, so would expect the bike to be more efficient. If this was 10p per mile it would mean increased travel costs of about £120 per month.


16p per mile 'all in'... tax, insurance, MOT servicing, petrol... I haven't had a car THAT cheap since 1995......

Motorcycle economics? 10p a mile? Again, fuel cost or all up?

Scooters are bic-biro cheap to run. Mainly by dint of being low powered, and light weight. They dont take much servicing, and when they do, bits are fairly cheap. Same goes for Learner-Legal motorcycles to some extent.

As you move up to 'big-bikes' however, costs go up approximately proportional to power output. Selling not as humble bus-fare-beating ways to work, big bikes are more often leisure equipment, where economy is isn't a big concern.

Up to about 500cc or so, the 'commuter twins' costs can be comparable to and some-times favourable against a car; BUT, on ANY bike there's a lot more 'pay as you go' costs than just petrol. They generally have much shorter service intervals, and they frequently demand much more by way of service spares.

For example, big cost is tyres. Costs me more to buy two tyres for my relatively pedestrian Honda CB750 than a set of four for my Honda Civic. Tyres for the bike, I expect to last, perhaps 3-4000 miles... I have no idea how long they are likely to last on the car; It needed two for its MOT this year, only ones I have bought since I got it five years ago, and I expect them to still be on the thing when I scrap it!

Lighter, less powerful bikes will eek out such attentions and expenses a lot better... but they still need it.

20K miles a year? JUST commuting, 2000 miles a month or there-about's? You might have to have a bike serviced once a month; and expect to spend, £1500, £2000 in service spares, like oil, oil-filters, spark-plugs, brake pads, chain and sprockets, and tyres, in a year, and that's if you DIY your own maintenance. Its, ABOUT as much again per mile as your fuel costs are likely to be.

And that's not a bad rough reckoner. Double the suggested fuel costs to get the 'running costs' then add your annual overheads, like Tax, Insurance, MOT, depreciation, and any finance charges to get an 'all up' figure.

If you do full all up cost comparisons of bikes to cars, the 'idea' a bike is 'cheap' to run compared to a car, suggested by MPG figures often proves woefully wrong; add the costs of getting a licence; add the costs of buying and maintaining helmet and riding gear, which if you wearing in all weathers every day, is likely to have a finite life of probably around a year, economics for many people start to make a cheaper car look an AWFUL lot better economy measure.

Time vs Money vs Pleasure.

40 mile commute; you wont save so much time being able to filter through traffic. Togging up and down either end, will erode how much time you might save on your journey. And, if you do save much... well, weekly maintenance, making sure fluids are topped up and everything adjusted and not worn out will rob a lot back; servicing the bike yourself, taking a Sunday morning one week-end a month out your social calender to do your oil and plug changes; you could easily loose more time than you ever save.

Don't hit the snooze button on the alarm clock; leave earlier, sit it out in the car; snooze there like all the other dozy fuckers in the morning out to SMIDSY you.... like as not not rob you of so much time or money.

But, it is London, and you do have the congestion charge and exorbitant parking to factor in which could tip the balance...But, don't expect it to be anywhere near as huge difference as you are probably hoping.

And don't expect to justify a hyper-bike on the back of presumed savings!

ayresm wrote:
My concern with a 125 - would it be suitable for sustained dual carriageway use / motorways?


Depends what your idea of sustained duel-carriageway use comprised of.

Was having an argument with my lad the other evening, who insisted that he did 'nothing wrong' having an irate Focus Driver tail gate him, then dive past on his left for holding her up, while he tried to pass a slower car on a duel carriageway on his CG125, because HE did nothing 'illegal'.... No... just daft.... trying to battle with the blinzen-bimmers in the 'over-taking' lane, when his 125 was barely able to sustain truck speeds.

I have little problem taking lightweights up duel-carriageways or even motorways... I don't rag them, trying to keep up with Mondeo Man in the middle lane! 55 in the truck stack; sit it out, pass them all when they stop at the end.

Back to time and money again; 125 will be cheap on service costs; but, you ent going to be making up time against cars on them fast roads.... well, not of you want you and bike to survive.

ayresm wrote:
Rent would drop by £550 so would more than make up for it. But thats just rough calculations


Saving £550 a month in rent? That's you're threshold?

And you want to get something for a couple of grand?

Well, that would put you into the market for a lot of three year old ex school-bikes, by way of ER6's or the like. Sensible sort of longer haul commuter bike; but at that price? Be a bit raggy and tired I'd expect. Probably not too big an issue as you would be running it into the ground anyway; but a bit tired before you start, I'd not bet on it proving to be 'best' value all up, with high miles wear and tear knocking its resale.

I would look at a Honda CBR250. (in fact I did not long ago) Brand New, over three years, on tick. I think they were something like £500 down and £99 per month. 'Interest free'. Was a pretty good deal, and 0% means no finance charges. (And £1500 left in the bank, jump starting your House Deposit fund) And yup; pretty hefty new-bike depreciation; but, what the heck. Bikes depreciate. You run this thing till the first MOT is due and finance cleared, and if you get £500 back for it, use that as deposit on the next one. Its a 'disposeable' bike; which if you bought middle age second hand commuter, would be too, and while depreciation might not be so high, costs probably not much different over three years.

Meanwhile 100% brand-New bike reliable wheels, so boss wont be frowning at oil under your nails when you get to work.

Not particularly exiting bike; but, cheap and useful commuter fare; with a bit more oomph than a 125. they do about 70-80mpg, so, maybe 8p mile in fuel... 16p mile 'running'.... £334 per month.... Add your finance... £433 pm... insurance? £300 a year, £25 pm? £458pm... Tax? £38 per year, £3pm.... £461... So far you are only saving £90 a month...... Hat, Gloves, water-proofs, boots. £300? Piece of string job, but representative, and a reasonable figure to suggest you budget for annual replacement of knackered riding apparel... another £25 per month... £486 'all up'...

Numbers aren't looking so wonderful......

Give or take, you might be able to make it work for you... but I sure as fuck wouldn't bank on being able to pay my mortgage (which is half your suggested saving in rent a month!) out of what I might save riding a motorbike to work! ANY motorbike.

Those numbers, are a quick cut, based on a pretty economical 250, but more representative I think than your presumption based on petrol prices and MPG figures. Up that to a 500 or a 650? Margins are only ever going to get smaller, or turn negative.

If you want a bike? Fair play... get a bike. Do it for the love of. Its the only REAL reason for doing it. IF it saves you any money, great.

Don't do it for the 'money'. You'll likely not find it. They may be there, but, you will have to be very careful and clued up to make the numbers work your way, and even if you do, 'savings' are likely to be a LOT smaller than you think, and easily lost, by any number of freak or not so freak incidents, like a patch of diesel or a moments lapse of concentration.
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c_dug
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PostPosted: 15:47 - 27 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sadly what tef says is for the most part true, I saved money when I had my crash and had to get the tube for a few months.

In the end I'm happier paying extra for the privilege of my own little bit of space. Even if I do get wet when it rains!
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iooi
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PostPosted: 17:10 - 27 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
For example, big cost is tyres. Costs me more to buy two tyres for my relatively pedestrian Honda CB750 than a set of four for my Honda Civic. Tyres for the bike, I expect to last, perhaps 3-4000 miles...


Ouch. That is bad tyre life.
I expect to get at least 10K out of mine. But agree on bike V car.

Bike 2 tyres 10K £200
Car 4 Tyres 40K £220.

Bike 60Mpg
Car 40Mpg.

Looking at figures for my actual costs over the last 5 years... The car wins hands down.
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ayresm
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Joined: 27 Apr 2014
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PostPosted: 17:29 - 27 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Again, thanks for the responses.

Leaves me with lots of calculations to make...

My current average monthly outgoings for my bike are about £90, and thats assuming about 400 miles per month and includes insurance, tax, MOT, fuel, servicing, new helmet every 3 years & gloves every 2 years. Based on this feedback, I'd expect these to quadruple.

So each month I'd expect save, about £250 if commuting by bike, £200 using a car and £170 if using public transport (£380 monthly season ticket).

Obviously need to counter the cost of a new bike into this so would probably expect to be back in the black after about 5-6 months.

I now need to decide how much my time / comfort / ability to work on the train is worth!

Thanks again.
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c_dug
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PostPosted: 17:32 - 27 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Also factor in the inevitable day or two a year where you can't ride for whatever reason, be that because of bad weather or something needing servicing.

On trains, work it out carefully, often when you take into account off peak travel and remove annual leave and time off over Christmas it often works out cheaper to pay as you go. At least for me on the underground it does anyway.
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Andy_Pagin
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PostPosted: 20:03 - 27 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Precisely where are you commuting from and to? Personally I'd avoid the M25 if possible, motorways have no advantage over A roads for a bike and can be dangerous and stressful.
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wr6133
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PostPosted: 20:35 - 27 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tef I won't disagree with you that bikes are more costly than people assume but your running costs for a 250 are ridiculous.

By your budget the OP could change chain, sprockets, oil, brake pads and plugs EVERY MONTH and have enough change left over he could do the tyres every 2 months. Bit overkill for an estimated 2k miles a month.

Let me know where you live I want to come dive in your bins for all the barely used chains, sprockets, pads and plugs you must toss every month.
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Andy_Pagin
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PostPosted: 20:51 - 27 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Last set of tyres on my Fazer managed 8000 miles+ each. I expect a bit more from the BT023's.
8000ish mile service costs about £130 diy on average.
45mpg is realistic on a London commute.
Fun factor beats the train by a factor of 10^(infinity^2)
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