2 Stroke vs 4 Stroke 50cc

[McSane]

Hi All,

First post...

I'm looking into a bike for my son who turns 16 soon (Hopefully he won't recognise me from this!). I have read a lot to try to understand best options as I've never ridden myself and have no previous knowledge.

My first consideration is his safety, accepting the inherent danger of being on a motorbike in the first place. The biggest influences of the bike itself on this, that I can see, are handling and power.

Questions:
Do I understand correctly that the extra acceleration and hill climbing speed of a 2-stroke engine makes enough of a difference to make it safer in traffic?

Is the style of a sport/road (his preferred style) bike better for handling and safety because of it's wheel size, seat height etc. than a scooter style?

I'm conscious that a 4-stroke is much better for fuel economy and pollution, which concerns me as well.

Any other comments/advice would be greatly appreciated!

[Az]

If you want my honest opinion and many may disagree, it's that 50cc bikes are dangerous. They have to be restriced so that they cannot exceed 30mph, that's dangerously slow. They're restricted to 30mph yet allowed on 70mph dual carriageways

I won't scare you with all the horror stories i've read/heard but, personally, i'd just wait till he was 17 and buy him a 125cc motorbike, it's alot safer than a slow 50cc in my opinion.

Edit: If he's only staying in the city and isn't going on roads with limits any faster than 30mph, it may not be too bad. I still wouldn't reccomend it though.

[wr6133]

Wait till 17 and get a 125 geared bike. If he absolutely must have a 50 at 16 then stick with a twist and go moped there's not a lot of point in spending big on a restricted 50cc geared bike.

2 or 4 stroke. If he is riding it restricted (so legally) who cares. Get whatever is local and cheap it'll be consigned to the heap as soon as he turns 17.

If he wants to join the legions of annoying little pedbois then aim for something that has a name it can't live up to and add some monster stickers.

[MC]

Only a derestricted (2-stroke) 50cc is safe IMO, and then if your 16 your not riding in accordance with your license, and technically invalidating your insurance. 30mph is too slow, even in town, might as well be on a push bike of you want cars overtaking you all the time.

You can get big wheeled scooters, which are more stable. Also scooters give you a bit more protection, but still are inherently dangerous having 2 wheels If he really wants a bike tell him you'll get him a 125 when he's 17, or better yet get him a car.
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Yamaha MT-03 '08 (crashed)
Honda XR-125L '04

[Az]

[MC]

Let's see if I can save this... get him a car until he's 19 & can ride something decent
____________________
Yamaha MT-03 '08 (crashed)
Honda XR-125L '04

[dolly3900]

Agree with the points above on 50's being a tad slow and on the open road slightly dangerous and as such a target for angry drivers' frustrations.

That said, if you are looking for a used 'ped (not scooter), you will probably be hard pushed to find a standard one, as most tend to get de-restricted as soon as their first owner gets them due to the lack of get up and go in them.

This does offer you the option of a full power (don't laugh) 2 stroke 50 making it a more usable machine, not only on NSL roads, but in town also, as it is more likely to be able to keep up with the traffic.

This will obviously depend on your outlook on how learner legal you want to be, Ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law, so beware of insuring a ‘ped as 16 year old legal when you know it has had the restriction taken off, saying I did not know is not a get out clause.

My opinion is that the larger wheel 'peds (bike style), are more stable and hence safer option than the 10" wheeled scooters and are a much better option for a youngster to get on, especially if they are planning to progress to bigger machines as age allows.

Also they are probably used to a pushbike at 16, so being sat astride a motorised one should feel a more natural position, than sat inside a scooter.

Personally, I think a 'ped is a good idea, as it allows them some freedom, gives them some responsibility for their own actions, gets them some increased road sense over what they should already have from being a cyclist and pedestrian, also is a good preparation for when they go up to 125 and further.

All that said, each to their own, a sensible 16 year old on a de-restricted 50 is going to be safer to themself and others than a total knob on a standard scooter, so I would say, you know your child, your roads, your trainer, so judge accordingly.

Just remember that accidents happen, 16 year olds are going to push to the limit of what they have, irrespective of how grown up they are and what they are on, so be prepared for the odd bump and drop, it is not always about how the accident is caused, but more about what they take away from it, a small off with a bit of pain, IHMO, is a valuable lesson in the learning curve, ensuring that they realise that they are not invincible and that pain is an inevitable result of stupidity on a bike (as with many things in life).
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2002 Rieju RS2-50 (Sold, spares or repair), 2010 Suzuki DR-125SM (Traded for ->), 2007 Honda CBF 600 (Sold), 2010 Suzuki V-Strom 1000 (Briefly, now returned), 2007 Suzuki Intruder 1800m (Even More Briefly, traded in for ->), 2014 Suzuki V-Strom 650

[Teflon-Mike]

At 16 he is legally entitled to ride a MOPED, strict defanition in law; must be less than 50cc (or so my Kw if electric), AND not capable of exceeding 28mph.

There's a few anomalous bit's of 'legacy' law; older mopeds were built to regs that limited them to less then 35mph and 3.5bhp, which now 'technically' still legally 'Mopeds' as far as C&U and thier registration go, appear to be outside of the 'Moped' licence entitlement of a new provisional licence holder... but I'll ignore them for a moment.

So; did teach your lad to ride a push bike with stabilisers when he was little? Did you then give him a BMX or Mountain Bike? How worried about 'safety' were you doing that?

Did you know, that mile for mile, Cylists, according to Gov't stats are about as likely to get hurt on UK roads as Motorcyclists... given that motor-vehicle stats are a lot more accurate and likely to get recorded, probably a bit more so?

If you weren't worried about sticking him on a push bike? Why suddenly so concerned about a Powered Two Wheeler, that makes him wear a proper crash helmet, have some basic training, and prohibits him from doing the pedestrian/vehicle switch jumping on and off the pavement willy nilly?

Speed? Its a Mo-Ped... a MOtor-assisted PEDal cycle... or at least that was the idea. Don't have to have pedals these days but THAT is the sort of 'performance' that was envisaged of the regs. And to be honest... THAT is the dangerouse bit about them... 'Ideas'.

My two eldest boys were both into cycling, and competed in school-boy Time-Trial and cross-Country events. Pair of them dropped ten mile 'road' time-trial in around twenty minutes... or an average speed of 30mph... every week. Ie sticking them on 28mph limited mopeds SLOWED THEM DOWN!

So, RISKS... real risk of riding a moped? Not much different to riding a push-bike. And you have probably been letting him do that for a fair while, and never given half as much thought to how dangerouse it really is... 'cos every one does it.

Get that in check; safety comes from good decisions based on reason, NOT 'fear' or 'excitement'.

Next; Going 'faster' is rarely a great way to make you 'safer'... and its absolute fucking BULLSHIT all this 'Mopeds are dangerouse they cant keep up with traffic' Shit!

Mopeds, like push-bikes are a ROAD vehicle... and not ALL road vehicles are 70mph+ boxes.

What makes PEOPLE dangerouse on push-bikes and low powered motorcycles, is that they feel intimidated or frustrated by bigger faster vehicles.... They are either scared of them trying to get past, often too close, or they are frustrated and want to keep up with them.

Its the PEOPLE who are dangerouse NOT the vehicle...

If your lad has half an ounce of sense and can be trusted to be 'sensible'... then shouldn't matter WHAT you stick him on... push bike, pedal & pop, twist and go scoot, or a geared 50....

If he's NOT got much sense, and is going to let the red mist of having a throttle in his right mitt rule his riding.... well... in the words of Arthur Ransom... "If duffers will drown...." He gonna have to learn the hard way... but yet again... wont make two hoots of difference what BIKE you stick him on as to how hard that lesson gonna be!

Only difference its going to make is how much shit and resentment YOU get along the way! "I'm not riding THAT, all my mayz'll laugh at me!"

And THAT what decisions he makes under 'peer pressure' THEM will be the ones you have no control over, and the ones MOST likely to stick him into danger..... bike or NO bike....

Another little bit of 'risk' realisation for you; Twenty odd years ago I was on a 'date' with a nurse; who finding out I rode bikes, went a bit 'cold' and started telling me how dangerouse they were, and recounting stories of 'all' the bikers she had to patch up in A&E... conversation went a bit cold after I asked if we'd met before... to which she replied "No? I don't think so" which sort of ended the debate, as I said "There you go; you haven't met me 'cos not ALL bikers fall off; you only see the ones who do!"... she filled the 'lull' by looking around teh pup, and then saying "Glad I'm not on tonight!" and then explaining how Friday Saturday nights in A&E were chaos, with 'All the drunks'... recounting all the 'cases' of drug over-doses, de-hydration, stomoch pumpings, stitching up blokes faces, splinting girls broken legs from falling of six inch stilletto's etc etc etc.... "Go get me another Drink".... "Careful now, more dangerouse than biking!" I jested....

BUT, reality; youth 'life-style'... twenty years ago or more, FAR more likely then to get hurt having a night on the town and be at far more risk of death or serious injury from all the manifest risks.... than riding a motorbike to and from school! And its NO 'safer' these days; I mean plastic fucking beer glasses? NOT really the nub of the problem, is it?

So, in the greater scheme of things? A moped? How big the wheels are? Where the engine's put?

This is a symptom of worrying about your lad.... and looking for stuff you can worry about that 'might' have some small influence... so that you feel like you have done 'something' in a world where there is just SO MUCH you have absolutely fuck all control over, that is, if you think about it FAR MORE likely to be far more 'dangerouse'....

Are you a good parent?
Have you done a good job till now, do you reckon?
Do you TRUST your lad to be 'sensible' when needed?

If so, job done. You cant do very much more. If not? too late now, I'm afraid.

Pick a moped he will ride; encourage him to carry on being 'sensible'; let him get on with it... watch fledgling test his wings.... its ALL you can do.

But, yeah... you are on the right lines, and if your lad has some sense, he'll see the sense it a bike with bigger wheels, and an engine in the middle.... better still if he see's the benefit of good brakes, and lights that work, and not ragging the shit out of it, good maintenence, so that it doesn't fail on him at a critical moment, or break down and have him phoning you for a lift home with moped in the boot, at some stupid o'clock in the morning; and he MIGHT also have sense enough to refuse the Econo-cider passed round in the park or the 'fun-tab' round his mates, '"Cos I got to Ride Home"... which is a sort of 'natural balance', and where a LITTLE risk and a LITTLE responsibility can actually be a bit like an inoculation to greater diseases.

My eldest is pushing 30 now... he's just about got past that youth frenzy; he's had a lot of bikes, and big bikes in the last decade... and he's had a fair number of broken bones from them as well... BUT... making THAT life-style choice, he's not made other, far more damaging ones, and he's not been arrested for being Drunk & Disorderly, not been charged with possession, or got himself into a town centre brawl and bailed to keep the peace; nor is he in court every other week trying to get access to illigitimate off-spring, or arguing maintenence increased! He's survived... just... and done pretty 'OK'.... What part his Moped played? Well, its small potatoes.

KIDS FACE RISK

We cant pack them in cotton wool and protect them from everything dangerouse in this world, and even trying, all we'll likely achieve is them trying to escape and jump into even bigger danger JUST to find out what its like!

Dont Sweat the small stuff, and mopeds ARE small stuff.

And BEST thing to help keep kid safer I can offer you for free.

Tell him; it may LOOK like a motorbike... but its not. Its a push-bike he cant ride on the pavement and doesn't have to pedal. DONT try riding it down busy fast roads he wouldn't be comfy on a push bike on..... job-done.

Though, for the laugh... No1-Son... was off the road for a fortnight after sizing up his moped 'speed testing' it.... ended up having to use his 'road-bike' to pedal to college every day..... He came in one evening, while I was faffing with spanners for him... and I asked "So... How 'fast' did you manage to go, before it went bang" He went a bit coy, and I reached over and tapped the 'stats' button on the little trip computer on his push-bike handle-bars... The 'Max-Recorded Speed' came up as I think 50 something mph!

I THINK that the message must have sunk in some-where along the line, as he just laughed... and kept stammering "Yeah... but, but, but, it's its, well, its Not the SAME THING!" though I think even he realised how tenuous that argument was!

Fact - fit kid on a push bike can go faster than a Moped. So if you have moped, don't even bother trying to go quick... if you want to go quick... get a push-bike and get fit! Use moped as intended; to go slow, safely, and save effort pedalling!
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[Baffler186]

Agree with some of what Tef has said, there are safe ways to ride a 50cc machine, but it all depends on whether your lad is "sensible", and what sort of riding he'll be doing. I would not put my son on a 50 (or a pushbike for that matter) if it was 20 miles a day on a twisty B-road used as a rat run by commercial vehicles.

Also, if your intention is to get him into biking, then I would go for a geared bike to get him used to future biking and tests etc. But if you're not fussed then as others have said, get cheap moped and assume he'll want a car at 17, will like the idea of taking mates around in it and probably forget about two wheels until he's old enough to ride a big bike.
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Current: 2009 SV650 S, 1990 Kawasaki GT550
Previous: 2009 CBF125, 1998 GSF600, 2004 FZ6 Fazer, 1978 CB400a Hondamatic

[Rogerborg]

[MC]

[Teflon-Mike]

[daverave999]

So am I correct in thinking ANYTHING 50cc MUST be limited? Or as a full licence holder can I get a de-restricted 50cc as long as the DVLA and my insurance know?

Just asking as I've been considering a toy for local shop runs and since de-restricted scooters are a-plenty on Gumtree I'd often wondered if that was a possibility.
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2007 Versys 650 2001 Yamaha XJ600S Diversion
HT: Imagine a bike......A bike designed by way of crude polls, assembled by cretins using the finest hammers that Lidl had on offer.

[MC]

Yeah you can get a derestricted 50cc bike, just let your insurance know.
____________________
Yamaha MT-03 '08 (crashed)
Honda XR-125L '04

[Teflon-Mike]

[lukamon]

whe i was 16. I actually rang the in s. co and told them it was derestricted. their response? "yeah no problem, everyone does it anyway"

not exactly official, but they cant say they didnt know, and its a hell of a lot safer
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killa wrote: Im an ass man myself

[MC]

Tef', just stop it Long as your insurance company knows, you've covered yourself.
____________________
Yamaha MT-03 '08 (crashed)
Honda XR-125L '04

[daverave999]

Sounds like an arse-ache to get a 50 that's not a moped then. Guess I'll be looking for a CG...
____________________
2007 Versys 650 2001 Yamaha XJ600S Diversion
HT: Imagine a bike......A bike designed by way of crude polls, assembled by cretins using the finest hammers that Lidl had on offer.

[Teflon-Mike]

[Fladdem]

Didn't read other posts, so forgive me if I repeat others. A nnice second hand geared two stroke is the answer. Fuekl economy is about the same on all mopeds, pollution- who cares? A packet of fags releases more then a moped, made it up, may not be true.

I hate to be the one to endorse riding illegally but an aprillia RS50, derestricted with a big bore kit, 80cc, left me for dead on my Varadero 125, acceleration and top-end. Would do about 85 flat out he reckoned. So a 125 is not necessarily faster or safer. Just bigger so may command more respect.

I agree standard mopeds are dangerously slow, but check out some decent second hand two strokes. My mates got an import TZR50, bog standard, will do 55MPH according to our speedos. In fact I would highly recommend the Yamaha TZR 50, nippy, reliable, good fuel range, due to a large tank, fairly comfy, it's about as big as the same mates Mito 125. And you could pick up a good example for about a grand. If you bought new, and scooter twist-and-go style, you would have a nasty, slow, four stroke, with no resale value and possibly Chinese therefore unreliable moped for a grand. The TZR even has proper sized wheels, so you're not wobbling all over the shot above 20mph.

Mopeds are fun, in a sort of no rush, just potter over there fashion. I never had as much fun on a bike as just pedding around with my mates. My MT5 would do a touch over 45 flat out, and it was 20 years old on the original piston.

I think the experience on a moped is invaluable, it will give him a sense of respect towards them when he is driving or on a bigger bike. A geared one is a little bit frustrating at first, I kept stalling or wheelying to begin with on my 50, but you get the knack eventually, just send him up and down the road a bit.
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Current:1991 Honda MT50 (Soon to be a H100/MTX/MT5 hybrid), 1976 Honda Cub C70, 2005 Honda Varadero 125, 1993 Yamaha TTR250 Open Enduro , 2010 Road Legal Stomp YX140, 1994 Honda CRM 250 MK III, 1999 Cagiva Mito 125, 1992 Honda CB400 Super Four, Stomp T4 230, 1984 Honda H100s, 2009 Sym XS125K
Past:2003 Aprilia RS125, 1982 Kawasaki GPZ550(FREE BIKE!)
I'm having more fun than a well-oiled midget.