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See ya later camshafts,

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CaNsA
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PostPosted: 14:16 - 09 Jun 2014    Post subject: See ya later camshafts, Reply with quote

Freevalve system incoming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bch5B23_pu0
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krarkol
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PostPosted: 15:31 - 09 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

This screams of so much win.

I wish to invest. I can see this being the next big advancement in all engines!
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Ben90
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PostPosted: 15:34 - 09 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Watched a lot of Koenigsegg's videos and this is no different, awesome stuff. No more cambelts for cars or cam chains, valve clearances, smaller, lighter more powerful engines. Imagine.

One slightly pessimistic thing to note is Koenigsegg hand built their own system (just like everything else) on a probably limitless budget - hence no faults over 60,000km or however many they drove their saab. Once the other companies get hold of it their accountants will gleefully shave off 95% of the cost and reliability issues will doubtlessly arise.

At least four years before its in a Koenigsegg though, and probably many more before it's implemented into run of the mill cars, and many more still before it's implemented into motobikes Rolling Eyes

Still, good post Very Happy
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DrSnoosnoo
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PostPosted: 15:40 - 09 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very cool!!! It will never get out of spec - no more expensive valve checks and adjustments for those who can't be arsed.

No camshafts or chains to get slack and start knocking. It's so cool.

How do they know how to time it properly though? Is it through the ECU that knows where the pistons are so knows what valves to open? It's probably blaringly obvious that it's that.
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c_dug
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PostPosted: 15:46 - 09 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be honest I see mass adoption of electric cars happening before this technology makes it to the average family car in the street.
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iooi
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PostPosted: 16:27 - 09 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

If this is such a good system. Why another 3 years before it might be seen in any car.....

I'm sure if it was that good. One of the big boys would be onto this and have it running in no time given the mooted savings. Not only fuel wise but also weight/space wise for a new breed of super mini's.
The shear cost savings in manufacture would soon outweigh the development costs.

Odds on this is never seen in a mass production car.
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c-m
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PostPosted: 16:44 - 09 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't it similar to the systems F1 cars have been running for many years?

Looks cool. I'd love to see it in a motorcycle engine.
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lihp
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PostPosted: 16:50 - 09 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

c-m wrote:
Isn't it similar to the systems F1 cars have been running for many years?

Looks cool. I'd love to see it in a motorcycle engine.


Renault experimented with a hydraulic version, but it's never really been common in F1.

They also experimented with Rotary Valves until they ended up being banned.
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jjdugen
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PostPosted: 16:54 - 09 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pneumatic valve tech will trickle through to production engines, probably within the next generation. GP motorcycle have been using it for the last three years. I can see infinite possibilities, completely variable valve timing, power losses from the camshaft / valve spring group eliminated, completely even cylinder filling on all cylinders rather than the differences from non asymmetric shim wear. Engines not much taller than an equivalent 2 stroke, whats not to like?

There will be concerns that the air compressor and associated systems are reliable and up to the job, but that is the only part of the system that has not been tested in a production vehicle as yet, the computing power is fairly minimal. Bring it on..Please, I'm sick to death of juggling cams and shims.
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lihp
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PostPosted: 17:00 - 09 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

jjdugen wrote:
GP motorcycle have been using it for the last three years.


Wrong.

They still use camshafts. Ducati use pneumatics to close the valves as a replacement for valve springs, not as a method of opening valves like the Koenigsegg video.
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krarkol
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PostPosted: 17:12 - 09 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

c-m wrote:
Isn't it similar to the systems F1 cars have been running for many years?

Looks cool. I'd love to see it in a motorcycle engine.


F1 are still pretty similar to what you'll see in a common engine. Except instead of springs they'll use hydraulic fluid as the springs get all out of shape at a certain RPM.

I imagine most of the increases are due to no cambelts and such as these systems cause losses and also you can tune each individual valves timing.

For timing, I'm guessing with todays tech it can all be programmed into a software map what mode to go for. So pressing "sport mode" will completely switch around the way the engines timing. Rather than the current VVT systems which are pretty much still pretty "analog".
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 17:31 - 09 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

The bit that confuses me is why this is taking so long. The technology is essentially the same as used in fuel injection, just scaled up.

There will be the same nay-saying over reliability and over-complication, but how many people would really choose a carb over FI on a new vehicle?

My suspicion is that the mass marques could do this tomorrow, and probably have it sitting in their back pocket waiting for some big market to mandate efficiency or emissions regulations that will require them to roll it out.
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lihp
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PostPosted: 17:40 - 09 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:

My suspicion is that the mass marques could do this tomorrow, and probably have it sitting in their back pocket waiting for some big market to mandate efficiency or emissions regulations that will require them to roll it out.


The question is whether the technology for the latest eco-box shite that nobody cares about is worth the cost of developing the system for a small real world gain.
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 17:43 - 09 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also wonder why no one is doing throttleless engines for bikes yet? BMW's valve tronic and Fiat's Multair seem to work very well by using adjustable valve lift instead of a throttle plate in the inlet.

Will we soon see FSI/GDI style direct injection on bike engines too?
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lihp
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PostPosted: 17:51 - 09 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevo as b4 wrote:
I also wonder why no one is doing throttleless engines for bikes yet? BMW's valve tronic and Fiat's Multair seem to work very well by using adjustable valve lift instead of a throttle plate in the inlet.


Erm, no.

valvetronic and multair are just VVL systems, they don't replace the throttle assemblies.
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 18:08 - 09 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you sure you don't mean Vanos?

Maybe they called it something else then, but BMW have made petrol car engines with no throttle body, and they rely entirely on controlling the amount of valve lift to regulate engine speed, the main advantage like a diesel is much reduced pumping loses.
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weasley
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PostPosted: 18:12 - 09 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

PhilDawson8270 wrote:
stevo as b4 wrote:
I also wonder why no one is doing throttleless engines for bikes yet? BMW's valve tronic and Fiat's Multair seem to work very well by using adjustable valve lift instead of a throttle plate in the inlet.


Erm, no.

valvetronic and multair are just VVL systems, they don't replace the throttle assemblies.


Valvetronic does. It is continuously variable valve lift which means essentially the inlet valves are used as the throttle, since it can be varied down to zero lift. In practice there is still a throttle in the inlet side, but more for inlet tuning and emergency backup than for proper throttle use.

Some marine crosshead two-strokes have been using common rail hydraulic valve lift for years, with no camshaft at all. Easier to control at <200 rpm though.
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weasley
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PostPosted: 18:14 - 09 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevo as b4 wrote:
Are you sure you don't mean Vanos?

Maybe they called it something else then, but BMW have made petrol car engines with no throttle body, and they rely entirely on controlling the amount of valve lift to regulate engine speed, the main advantage like a diesel is much reduced pumping loses.


Faster typer/less verbose than me!

Also though, since the inlet valves ARE the throttle there is still an aerodynamic pumping loss, just more controlled and closer to the cylinders than a throttle body. Diesels run wide open all of the time since they are not stoichiometric engines.
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lihp
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PostPosted: 18:41 - 09 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

weasley wrote:

Valvetronic does.


Interesting, just looked it up and it appears I was wrong about valvetronic.
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lihp
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PostPosted: 18:42 - 09 Jun 2014    Post subject: Re: See ya later camshafts, Reply with quote

CaNsA wrote:


Whilst I remember, not really general bike chat is it Thumbs Down
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Richy CB1000
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PostPosted: 08:34 - 10 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

It could go deeper into block design, no need for a "head" and associated gaskets etc... Block could theoretically be one piece plus sump and top valve cover bolt on.
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.Bishbash.
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PostPosted: 11:11 - 10 Jun 2014    Post subject: Re: See ya later camshafts, Reply with quote

PhilDawson8270 wrote:
CaNsA wrote:


Whilst I remember, not really general bike chat is it Thumbs Down


Well actually he references bike engines to adapt to this new idea better due to the weight of the valves, so in fact, it has a high importance to future bike engines. Thumbs Up Wink

I love this idea, makes engines lighter, better and perform faster. I wonder how long it will take for the big bike manufacturers to get in on this and produce it for you and I.
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gavcarter
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PostPosted: 11:58 - 10 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dont show Chris, he'll never finish the turbo project! Mr. Green
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