Leaning limit, shit tyres?

[notbike]

Hey guys, been googling for reviews about the stock tyres for my bike, and everyone's said they're apparently very shit and that's the first thing they changed.

I've heard good things about these "Bridgestone BT45" tyres or "Pirelli Sport Demons" - I run Michelin Pilot Sportys with plenty of tread, they came with the bike when the guy sold it to me.

I am probably going to buy new tyres to see the difference anyway as I'm keeping the bike for at least another two years regardless of wanting a bigger bike. (a whole other topic)

The reason I started looking for reviews is because I've noticed how goddamn slippery these tyres are in any condition. Taking a corner at any pace in the wet, fast or slow, even on good tarmac can send my rear tyre slipping and it's bloody nerve wracking when it happens.

I've also noticed how when I take a bend in dry good weather at speed and give it a significant lean, when I get to a certain point EVERY TIME at that specific point my front tyre starts slipping forcing me to either totally straighten up and correct myself mid turn or lower my lean & speed. I feel very limited like this. This is after I've been riding on the tyres for some time, plenty of time for them to warm up and all that jazz.

I don't expect to be cornering like a champ, and I know I'm not using the limit of the tyre because there's roughly 1cm strips round either side of the rear and a little on the front too, and I've read that it should not start slipping at that point. I've seen videos of this bike being chucked round at lean angles that I would be shitting myself at, but they don't slip out at all, so why is it that at a lesser lean angle than them my tyres start to struggle? The bike is proven to be capable of leaning more.

This could also be down to my poor handling, is there anything I can do that will stop me slipping all the time? I accelerate through bends gradually but I always come out at a higher speed than when I went in (when I'm not bloody slipping).

I'm very comfortable with leaning the bike, brief description - hang one arse cheek off, drop my elbow, head follows mirror, have my other elbow across the tank, one knee hugging the tank, other knee hanging off tank, my hands are loose on the bars, and all the pressure is on my outer leg and hips. I'm not nuts-to-tank with regards to where I sit in the saddle and I also don't ride "crossed" because that was something I fixed early on.

I generally think I have an okay body position. I set myself up early, look through the bend, select a decent gear, and roll on the throttle, but any more lean than what I already give it, and it starts to slide, so wtf.

This happens when I lean at say 40mph round a decent bend and I follow a line I've set out in my head, and I just lean it as far as it needs to in order to follow that line, but it almost goes "nope, too much lean, fuck your line, you aren't leaning that far today."

Also you can criticize the fact that I like to ride this way on the road, but I don't do it often. I don't take every bend at speed, only my favourite roads after a late shift at work and wanna piss about on the ride home cause nobody's on the roads at 2am.

It annoys me when everyone says "just lean more" ._. it somehow doesn't seem that simple when I know if i lean any more I'll fishtail my bike completely.

Also wtf are squared off tyres? I was told by a colleague that I could have that, don't know what it means though so just nodded my head as if I did.

tl;dr how do I lean more, do I need new tyres for this because mine are shit?

Thanks.

[mentalboy]

Pics???
A squared off tyre should be obvious. When you look at it, it will have a flat profile, caused by wear, across the centre part of the tread instead of a nice curved profile from one edge to another.

I found the Michelin Power Pilot a good sports tyre but it wore out much too fast with my beast to be able to justify running on all the time. The Michelin Pilot Roads are a phenomenal all round tyre though and should suffice for most people.
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[notbike]

From your description I don't think I have squared off tyres at all. They seem quite round and the tread in the middle is not worn and is quite deep.

I notice that the edges where it can't achieve any more lean (the 1cm strips) seem to be more steeper in their slope towards the edge of the tyre than my friend's tyres. His tyres are gradual and round and come to the edges with the same gradient throughout the whole tyre right to the edges, whereas mine are round all the way through until those 1cm strips where it becomes a more steep gradient before the edge. Dunno if that made any sense, but it seemed weird that our tyres were a little different. He has a Derbi GPR125 and runs pirelli sport demons.

I can post pics tomorrow before work cause it's too dark to take any right now.

[CaNsA]

inb4 lowside

[pinkyfloyd]

I may be no expert but I try my damndest not to lean the bike over very far in the wet regardless of what tires I have on my bike.

In the dry, perhaps that is all your bike will handle. Mine wont lean over to tyre edge like some of the sports bikes do. I'll grind pegs before that happens, I've seen the evidence of someone do this on the same model bike.

If you are not getting around the corners safely the simple option is to slow down. If you do not feel confident in your tires then change them.
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illuminateTHEmind wrote: I am just more evolved than most of you guys... this allows me to pick of things quickly which would have normally taken the common man years to master
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Teflon-Mike:I think I agree with just about all Pinky has said.

[chickenstrip]

Sounds great - if you can learn to master it you could become proficient in rear wheel steering Don't highside it though.

Does sound odd, as by your description, it sounds like you're doing everything right. I take it you've checked your tyre pressures - not too high?

Squared-off tyres give a very different feel to sliding tyres - you fall off the corner, and it's quite sudden, very unnerving. Slides I find aren't quite as scary as you usually have more control, on the rear anyway.

Can't think what else to suggest - maybe you should just change to a different tyre, something else might suit your riding style better.

[Slacker24seve...]

Pilot Sportys are decent tyres. Something is wrong with your pressures, body position or throttle control.

A choppy throttle can give the feeling of a front end slide as the weight distribution shifts and gives the front tyre too much to do.

Check your pressures - the manufacturers settings are often a little too high to allow for fatties and luggage. Then focus on getting your body position right and smoothly rolling on the the throttle through the corner.
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[deadwolf]

Maybe the rear wheel isn't getting enough weight on it? Your mentioning of hanging off reminds me of my lowside two weeks ago. I was trying to find a way to carry more speed through some local twisties and tried shifting my bum off the side instead of sticking a knee out (with bum in normal position on seat) as I usually do. Took the first corner about 10km/h more than I usually do, so that was nice. Came on the second corner, bum out, leaning in and next moment I was off the bike and sliding off down the road behind it.

Smaller, lighter bikes like the R125 might benefit from a different riding style. Mine is a 150cc dual sport and hanging off is more or less unnecessary on it since you can hustle around corners through handlebar input and a bit of a knee out on really tight corners. It definitely needs your body weight in line with the bike to keep it planted. A bigger bike with more weight on the rear tyre would likely respond better to hanging off.

Just my theory anyway
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Motorsapien Art

[Teflon-Mike]

I think you are doing a lot of thinking and not a lot of riding.

I am VERY sceptical that when you tip in and get to a certain point you're front tyre is 'slipping'... even less that you would feel it...

When the tyre reaches the limit, they stop gripping, end of. If the front 'slipped' on a lightweight you would be on your arse before you knew it.

What you MIGHT get, well before they slip, is a thing called creep; which is when the tyre IS gripping, but, either through tread stability or carcas construction, the wheel doesn't 'track' quite in the direction it's pointing.

Easiest place to illustrate this is on a block-tread trail bike tyre. Imagine 15mm blocks around the circumference of the tyre, as you tip in, the block in contact with the road will tend to 'bend', allowing the tyre to slightly shift sideways over the contact patch, as the next block comes round, it's got no load on it, so it drops onto the tarmac in a straght line, off-set to the loaded block that preceded it.. as that block takes up load, it too starts to bend and the tyre shifts slightly sideways over the new contact patch, etc etc as each block comes round, the tyre 'walking' side-ways over the contact patch.

On a more conventional road tyre, the tread pattern tends to have much shallower relief grooving, with larger, better supported lands, so the tenancy is much less pronounced, but can still exist, and it's not just movement in the tread, twist in the side-wall will have a similar effect, and its perfectly normal, and when it occurs, it's an early warning of aproaching the limits, as the steering becomes more 'vague' and less precice, urging you to loose a little enthusiasm, whils you compensate with a little more lean and steering to get round the bend it happens on.

TYRE PRESSURE..... let the pressures go low, and the tyre will get soggy, and you will experience much more tyre instability a lot sooner... eliminate the stupid and the simple first.

Next; Mitch Pilots are for the most part a pretty good tyre; and on a low power lightweight like the R125, ought not be too stressed.

But Fuck your 'chicken strips'... they mean sod all.

One of the old Super-Dreams has a pair of Legendary 'Chen Shits Shins' on it.... There are no 'chicken strips, they are scrubbed from edge of the tread to edge of the tread... This does not tell anyone how 'great' the rider was... foolish perhaps... but the Chen-Chits, were a notorious hard compound, semi-block-tread budget tyre, that were about as grippy on even good tarmac as a slick on wet-grass; about thier only saving grace was that they were so weak in construction they would creep like buggery before they slipped; BUT, very 'flat' profile, the tread would bend to stay flat to the road, rather then rolling onto a different portion of tread... which was probably just as well, there wasn't bugger all! so they WOULD wear from edge to edge, no matter HOW much you leaned them!

We have Mitch M45's on the Pup. wonderful tyres; not a 'sports' tyre like the Pilot, it's a slightly harder, more all-round tread 'touring' tyre; for lighter bikes. Nice and sticky, they grip fantastically, and are very stable; BUT they have a very 'sharp' profile; very narrow contact patch at the centre, which actually gets bigger as you roll over it, leaning, and you could almost lay the bike flat on its side, without running off the tread.... those are guaranteed to have 'chicken strips'... you would have foot-pegs and side-stand gouging grooves in the road before you started wearing the edge of the tyre out!

Practical limit of how much tread you use on a tyre will always vary, with different tyres on the same bike, or the same tyres on different bike; its absolutely NO indication of how much you are leaning, or how hard you are cornering, or how much 'further' you might lean, or how close to the 'limit' you are getting...

REALLY, how wide chicken strips are means fuck all....

And its actually very easy to get narrow ones, leaning a bike over a long way in small tight corners, like round roundabouts, or doing tight turns, skuffing up the rubber.... if you want to try and 'read' a riders 'style' or ability from thier tyres, you have to start comparing the wear patterns on front and rear wheels, and looking for feathering swirls to judge how much lock they are using when they lean (tells you how tight they are turning) and how much load the rubber is under as they do it (Tells you how fast they are going)... but even then... an aggressive 'squid' chucking a bike around for max lean, max force, isn't necessarily going 'quick'.. they are just loading the bike up hard through suddeny control input, hard braking, hard acceleration.

So even if you can read tyres more acutely, it STILL means fuck all.

So, if you want to get better, start by getting this kind of sports-bike-hero-status-bragging-points shit out of your head, it is NOT going to help you any, just send you off chasing shit that doesn't matter, but could get you into trouble.

Now, knowing Mitch pilots are usually highly rated; if you are saying they do have plenty of tread on them, and aren't squared.... but you feel them 'slipping'....

I am very sceptical, there's anything wrong with the tyre, and apart from checking the pressures, I would suggest the chances are, unless you have sloppy steering bearings, or a fucked rear chock or fork seals... the problem is YOU.

Do some maintenance, eliminate variables. Check your headraces; check your tyre pressures; change your fork-oil; check your fork-seals; check your rear shock and shock bushes/link bush, and wheel bearings.

THEN, stop trying to be posey, shifting your arse about on the bike.... you ent riding a heavy-weight. You are on a super-lightweight; that weighs in at under 140Kg, not 200Kg; so you are a big proportion of the all-up weight clambering about on top of the bludy thing, and as you shove yourself one way, you are going to shove the bike t'other... this is NOT going to help your stability!

NEXT, you 'hang off' to actually hold the bike more upright.... so if you are trying to learn build confidence leaning, NOT leaning or using a technique to limit lean is rather counter productive, innit?

Aim should be for SMOOTH. Cool riding, in my book. Maximum effect, minimum effort.

SMOOTH is SWIFT, is SAFE and SAVES

If you dont load a bike up with unnecessary control input, you dont scrub off speed you'll want to put back on later; and if you have a finite level of 'grip' then the more you use reacting uneeded forces, like breaking or acceleration or sudden weight shifts, or steering... more you have for 'useful' work, getting round the bend, and more margin for safety you have to do something different IF you are FORCED to make sudden control input by a hazard being thrust upon you. And whatever you dont use? Well thats less wear and tear on the bike, so less getting worn out, so less that needs to be replaced come service time... and more chance you'll get there without a breakdown or mishap demanding expensive repairs. Its ALL good stuff. Old fashioned, a little but too much sensible and boring, but it WORKS.

So keep your arse in the saddle.. and stop trying to do what the racers and sports-bike hero's do.. and learn to 'ride it clean'.

Swift is Smooth is Safe

Stop making work for yourself unsettling the bike, putting load on tyres, stop AIMING to get the bike over, or trying to go quick, or fretting over fucking chicken strips.

Deep breath, STOP THINKING - START RIDING.....

Having done a bit of maintenance, eliminated variables; got silly ideas out your head... and just RIDE.. and aim for SMOOTH.

Sod the speed, sod the lean, as you get smooth, it WILL come, and as you get smooth, you will get swift and with speed will come lean.. and at speed where lean is natural and appropriate, you will be generating enough corner force it loads tyres to they grip, and it loads the bike to hold you up as you tip...

What I think you are doing at the moment is trying to 'force' angles onto the bike, and make work for yourself having to manually 'balance'; the thing, like an acrobat, to make the shapes you think you should be making, rather than letting them happen naturally, and occur as a result of cornering, not making them because you think you HAVE to, to corner.

Stop Thinking - Start Riding.

Let it come NATURALLY... don't force it.

Smooth is Swift is Safe.
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[daverave999]

As Mike said in a lot of words, shifting your body position is not making you lean more, it enables you to take corners faster as your bike is more upright. Sounds like you might be cornering too fast for the road surface. Visibility ain't so good at 2am... If I was feeling that I was having issues with grip in corners I would be slowing the fuck down in subsequent corners, not wondering if the tyres were at fault.

Are you moving into the hanging off position BEFORE the corner? If you're shuffling about whilst cornering that isn't going to help stability.

Also, as pinkyfloyd says, I'm trying my utmost to stay on the bike in the wet, not push the limits. Doesn't sound like squared off tyres to me either. Forget chickenstrips too - ride to your limits.

That said, I've got Pirelli Sport Demon on mine and I'm very happy with them.

Check your tyre pressures first though.
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2007 Versys 650 2001 Yamaha XJ600S Diversion
HT: Imagine a bike......A bike designed by way of crude polls, assembled by cretins using the finest hammers that Lidl had on offer.

[Dave70]

Get rid of the stock tyres on your R125. I never found them not too bad in the dry but they're lethal in wet conditions. I used to have my heart in my mouth on every corner and roundabouts were even more terrifying.

Personally, I always fit BT45's to mine and there is a very noticeable difference. I've not had a slide out once on them. They're great tyres for the R125. I know some people fit Pirelli Sport Demons but, not tried them myself, so can't comment on them. I've had no reason to try other tyres since first fitting the BTs, so probably never will as I can't fault them in any way.
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There ain't no devil, there's just god when he's drunk.

2012: R125 killed by white van. 2016 R125 killed by 30,000 miles of redline. Current: 2016 Kawasaki ER6f.

[RhynoCZ]

[Boris the spider]

Done neary 7,000 miles on the YBR with Pilot Sporty and now with the newer version Pilot Street on rear.
Used in all weathers and through the winter. Never had an issue with them.
And I really do give them pelters on my commute .
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[notbike]

Thanks for the replies guys. Mike you said some things I would never have thought of myself, so I really appreciate your input. I do wanna make it clear though that I wasn't really fretting over the chicken strips, I don't care about them actually being there and I don't have a desire to get rid of them (they ruin my dreams of being a sport bike hero! jk jk),I was just wondering if they indicated that my bike was capable of more lean but of course you've given me the answer to that now

I will see if this sorts itself out over time and with practice/less thought input while I ride. I'll slap some new rubbers on (probably the sport demons) and see if there's any difference then. My pressures are fine and checked every week, but I'll probably go ahead and check all those variables you mentioned with regards to suspension too, Mike.

It's likely down to my handling, I'm sure the bike is fine, I just need more practice. I don't chop throttle (that I'm aware of, I dont just off/on it mid corner) and yep Daverave I set myself up before the corner into hanging positions (I didn't know this made you a wannabe sport hero until now ) I just genuinely felt more stable in every corner when I was somewhat hanging off as opposed to sitting completely upright on the bike. I noticed that when I am sitting up straight with no hang-off what-so-ever and i lean over I tend to fight the bike's lean, this is totally eliminated when I hang off with the bike. It doesn't make me a poser to do what feels more comfortable and natural ?

Also I completely reduce my leaning in the wet. That's common sense. I don't push limits in the wet.

I'm very aware that I am riding a 125 and have not got the skills of a motogp racer, I'm not asking how I can take a corner at 90 and use all of the tyre and get my knee/elbow/helmet/penis/cat down on the tarmac.

RhynoCZ you don't like R125s?

[lihp]

[RhynoCZ]

It's not that Meef, it's the fact that you ride a 10.8kw motorcycle with about 12Nm of torque, having such a trouble riding it, what makes me wonder. I rode a MZ 150 ETZ like a mental person on tyres that were made of the exact same rubber as they used for shoe soles and I had not problem with going flat out in every corner, grinding the pegs. It was a dry run, and I would never go that fast, or rather agressive, in wet conditions. Not even on the ZXR or any other bike or car. It's not worth the risk when I ride just for fun.

Buying expensive tyres for a 125 is a waste of money. Even on cheap tyres when you think you're going flat out and lean it like a mental person, it's only a fraction of what it can actually do. + Unlike the MZ, your Yamaha is a modern bike with modern brakes and rigid frame that helps you a lot to keep the bike stable in every corner, so I'd just buy average tyres, nothing fancy and try to get used to the bike a bit more. I don't want to be that lad, but if you have problems with a 125 I can't see you riding anything bigger any soon.
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'87 Honda XBR 500, '96 Kawasaki ZX7R P1, '90 Honda CB-1, '88 Kawasaki GPz550, MZ 150 ETZ
'95 Mercedes-Benz w202 C200 CGI, '98 Mercedes-Benz w210 E200 Kompressor

[deadwolf]

It might be worth your while to check out The Pace and The Pace 2.0. I still re-read them once a month or so just to keep myself in the road-going mindset.

https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/flashback/122_0911_the_pace_nick_ienatsch/

https://www.cycleworld.com/2013/09/16/become-a-better-street-rider-with-the-pace-motorcycle-safety-and-riding-skills/
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Motorsapien Art

[notbike]

I don't wanna sound like a dick lol but if your idea of expensive is £170 for a pair of tyres on a bike I'd be keeping for 2 years, then you definitely need a better source of income mate - and I can handle the bike pretty well in all sorts of conditions, I just can't get it past a certain limit when "riding like a mental person" and trying to deliberately push limits.

FYI I don't expect to be on any larger motorcycle for the next two years by which point I'd have passed two full tests, so your point is completely redundant here.

[RhynoCZ]

[Ballpien]

The standard tyres on that bike are terrible. Change them for some BT45's, they will inspire a lot more confidence.

[Alpha-9]

[Slacker24seve...]

[Alpha-9]

[Dave70]

[Alpha-9]