Power Vs Ability

[Cadbury]

Here's the scenario:

You and Valentino Rossi on a track (e.g. Silverstone) both on identical, standard production bikes - something with a fair bit of power, say a pair of R1s.

You race, He wins. That's pretty much a given.

Next time around, you are still on the R1, but this time, Rossi is on something less powerful, like a gsr 750. Rossi would most likely still win, but would the gap be any closer?

How far do you think the difference would have to be before the power of the bike (on the straights) made up for your lack of ability (in the corners)? Hayabusa vs vespa?! Personally I'm by no means a fast rider, and have never been on a track so Rossi would probably beat me on a cg125

[Kickstart]

Hi

If Rossi was on a CG125, on Chen Shin tyres, in the wet he would probably still give me a hard time.

All the best

Keith
____________________
Traxpics, track day and racing photographs - Bimota Forum - Bike performance / thrust graphs for choosing gearing

[P.]

Hmmm, weird one but can relate.

I had a GSXR750 and got my arse handed to me by a 400cc town bike, CB400SF in the country lanes close to me, fairly wide too so you could see everything. Just seemed to be a demon in the corners.

However..

I decimated an older Triumph Triple, think it was a Trophy 750, an NTV600 and a Bandit 6 on my Varadero 2 up along a winding country lane near the beach here, Camber Sands, SE lot know this road Absolutely annihilated them.

I was VERY comfortable with throwing the Varadero round, not so much the GSXR, which is think is the reason I was a fast rider on that. However Rossi vs me, identical bikes regardless of size, I'd be eaten. Reckon it would be fair if I had a 600 super sports and he had a 125, but then again, my choice of roads I MAAAAAY stand a chance of coming 2nd.

[RhynoCZ]

On what track is that fictional scenario taking place?

R1 vs. gsr 750, well I do not think even Rossi could pull this off on certain tracks. It's not just about the raw power of the engine, there's also suspension, frame, brakes, weight of the bike, gearbox and so on.
Do you want to beat Rossi fair? Get something really slow, like a CG 125 and race it against him on the same CG 125. The key for this race would be the racer's weight, so lose enough weight so you'd lighter than him and then I can guarantee you would be the winner.

EDIT: Here's the ''R1 vs. GSR 750'' where you can see it's not all about the rider: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAMm0GMghN8
____________________
'87 Honda XBR 500, '96 Kawasaki ZX7R P1, '90 Honda CB-1, '88 Kawasaki GPz550, MZ 150 ETZ
'95 Mercedes-Benz w202 C200 CGI, '98 Mercedes-Benz w210 E200 Kompressor

[Rowey]

You'd have to take in to account the track too. A technical track with lots of corners, and I guess he would have no problem, on a 600, keeping up with you on a litre bike.

However, and as you can see in MotoGP with the agile M1 vs the fast RCV, on a track with lots of high speed straights you could probably pull back some of the time he makes up with his ability in the corners and braking, on the straights.
____________________
ZX6R C6F.
Never argue with an idiot. They'll only bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.

[Scythe]

[gorillaonabik...]

Was going all out on a CBR6 at Silverstone thinking I was Rossi when the instructor waved me to one side. Rocket Ron Haslam took the corner much faster than me on a Hornet... while carrying a pillion.

There was a test in one of the magazines many years ago and a professional racer on a 400 was about the equivalent of an amateur on an R1.

Have ridden with quick boys and they are so much quicker than you or I. Just a different league.
____________________
FZR400 (blown engine), ZXR750 (blown engine), ZX6R (accident), CBR600 which had engine issues after which I learned to change gear..., CBR900, CBR924 (stolen), CB600, CB1300 (everything blew up), BMW K1300GT (written off, hit from rear while stationary), Bandit 1250 for a couple of months, Triumph Sprint ST 1050 (nicked) and somewhere in there, I wrote off a Ducati 748 at Cadwell.

[Teflon-Mike]

Knowing the track helps a lot too; look at how much better riders do on their 'home' or most familiar circuits.

Tracks eliminate a lot of variables, but they different tracks do shift the bias of favour; Silverstone is a notorious power-track; been 'upgraded' a few times since, but it was once described as three drag strips with a three point turn between each! Cadwell is a much more demanding 'technical' track, all corners, a lot of them compound curves, a lots of blind apexes, and adverse cambers.

AND, the blokes who win races aren't necessarily the 'fastest' rider.

Look at qualifying times to race times; in a time-trial, racing against the clock, on a near clear run, a technical rider can shave seconds of race laps, where traffic slows every-one down, and muscling a line past an opponent counts for more than the 'ideal' line for speed.

We have a tendency to be over awed by the 'magical skill' of those at the pinnacle of the sport; but at the end of the day; they are just people, and the only thing that separates them from the spectators in the crowd is that they have had the 'whole package' of what it takes to go do it, on the track, and the breaks to see them get to the top.

You go to a UK Club Road Race; there ill be maybe thirty blokes on the grid; they are nothing special; just every day people with an interest; only rather than doing it on the road; they have got themselves a medical, and an ACU licence and taken it to the track. Few will have any more 'skill' than the average road-rider.

Then there will be a 'normal distribution' of talent and hardware; There will be Good riders, OK riders and Pretty poor riders; likewise the bikes; some will have 'the best' regardless, others will have whatever they can cobble together, and in the middle, a mish mash of indifference.

Good riders on good bikes will get to the front; poor riders on poor bikes will fall off the back; in the mid-field you'll have better riders on lesser bikes, and lesser riders on better bikes, and OK riders on OK bikes.

Progressing up the ranks, then, from clubbie to national to international... will filter out riders, not by talent, but by success.

Good, possibly even great, riders, on crap bikes will fall by the way-side at each stage, and never progress; lacking the hardware to get better results, or simply lacking the money to make every meet, and lacking, whatever 'drive' it takes to make the sacrifices to get that hardware, and put it on the grid every event. AND market themselves for it!

Long hard slog to the top, would suggest that only the best of the best will ever make it all the way, BUT, pure riding talent is a very small part of what carries them there. Like the late lamented Roy Castle was famous for saying "Dedication's what you need".

Gap between the 'Stars' and us mere mortals isn't necessarily all THAT big, in terms of pure innate riding ability, and there is likely to be many more as, if not more, 'talented' riders in the population, who have simply never taken it to the track.

But, detracting from the topic a little; they are 'Specialists' in their chosen discipline, and their skills have been honed specifically within that narrow area of expertise.

Thread about the 'problem' of ever increasing bike speed, and the dilemma about track design to accommodate the bikes, with the contention between MotoGP and WSB...

Thought I have had for many years, is that its the 'specialisation' that has seen bikes get as 'silly' as they have.

When I started riding; it was starting to happen, but a competition trials bike was still nominally 'streetable'; low seat and low gearing, but still HAD a seat! Moto-Cross bikes? Had started gaining ever longer travel suspension; but they weren't streets away from 'on-off-road bikes; and a Bultaco 250 street-bike could still be tuned and adapted by a back-yard bodgist to be a track-racer, scrambler, enduro-bike or trials tool. Bit more involved than in the days of the BSA 'Gold-Star' that legend recounts, could be ridden to work Monday to Friday, and set up for a Club event on a Sunday with little more than a change of tyres, handlebars and sprockets! But still.

1970's; The American Motorcycle Association 'Championship' was a convoluted 'cross discipline' affair, in which rival riders often didn't meet on track; they raced for points in any number of regional events across the various disciplines, from pure road-racing to sprints, hill-climbs, enduro style 'Rally' events, with the ever popular , dirt oval 'Long-Track' predominating.

In the Kenny Roberts era, long track offered so many point scoring races, that most of the top riders specialised in that discipline; getting championship placings from entering a large number of events; But Kenny Roberts / Yamaha recognised that they could get as many points from just concentrating on winning the 'prestige' road-races due to a points weighting for the discipline. Contention between weightings eventually killed the Championship, and the AMA basically created separate Dirt-Track and 'Super-Bike' championships...

BUT... I often wonder if a world 'Clubman' championship, cutting across 'specialisation' might not be the way forwards again?

Imagine a series in which riders had to use the same bike, give or take a few 'permitted' modifications like tyres and handlebars and gearing; then had to compete in a mix of events that included pure short circuit racing, road 'time trial' like the IoM TT, long circuit 'endurance' racing, over so many hours; mixed surface (Super-Motard) events; perhaps some pure 'loose surface' or more robust 'enduro' type events; as well as maybe Moto-Gym-Khana... I don't know, but mix it up; so that the 'specialist' bikes were disadvantaged, and overly 'specialist' riders had to learn and display a much broader range of rider skill. Could make for a much more interesting 'competition', with a lot more interest, and veriety.

And you could MotoGP and WSB back in line; MotoGP being the 'Open' class for modified bikes, specials and proto-types; WSB being the 'production' class for true 'show-room' street-bikes, rather than homologation specials.

Back to the OP's original Question? Me? right here right now? Rossi would win on a Vespa, even if you stuck me on a Hyabusa... I learned a long time ago, I don't have the will to win, and even if I could go faster, I'd tuck in behind and follow his lines, muttering to myself "Now why is he putting it there?"

However... put us on identical DAS type bikes, on the Public-Road, and give us a GPS location to get to 150 miles away, blind navigating unfamiliar country roads, city snarl and such? THAT would be revealing.... I think.
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[CaNsA]

I left a GSXR600 K1, bandit and a vfr800 for dust, riding 2-up on a zxr400.

[Pete.]

You must be dreaming if you think the average rider is going to keep up with even a good club racer on a GSXR750, no matter what the other bike is. As for taking on a moto-gp champ, it ain't gonna end well for you
____________________
a.k.a 'Geri'

132.9mph off and walked away. Gear is good, gear is good, gear is very very good

[deadwolf]

One of my favourite bike bloggers posted a thought experiment similar to this topic a while ago:

https://backmarker-bikewriter.blogspot.com/2012/12/moron-thought-experiments-oops-i-mean.html

[Tungtvann]

Rossi would beat me on anything faster than a 50cc.

I've seen the odd YouTube video of superior riders eating up bigger bikes on the track, these were no name amateurs/enthusiasts too. A pro? The gulf would be massive.

[Old Git Racing]

There's a you tube clip somewhere of a pro racer on a 300cc Kwak twin handing all the sportsbike amateurs their asses at Laguna Seca on a trackday. (soz don't know how to link).
I was a pretty decent clubbie. On a Mallory ACU practise day I'm going round Gerards knee down in the wet thinking how good am I when a bike came flying round the outside sliding the back and promptly pissed off down Stebbe straight. Turned out to be a pro BSB rider testing, a bit sobering.
There is a massive gulf between Rossi and an amateur. The difference in bike performance would need to be laughable to beat him.
Both on CG125's? He'd be lapping you within 5 laps.

OGR
____________________
2022 Tiger Sport 660 2019 Street Twin 2003 K3 gixxer 1000 1998 Srad 600 track hack

[gavbriggs]

I've got a helmet with 46 on it so I'm bound to win cos that number makes you go faster innit! Even on me Lardy bandit 1200
____________________
Recent bikes: Varadero 125 - Mod 2 3/2/14 - Bandit 1200 SK4

[c_dug]

I'd image even with a ridiculous gap, say Rossi on an SV650 and Joe Bloggs on a Desmodeci RR, you'd still find Mr average Joe falling behind on any track with a decent straight to corner ratio.

The thing pro racers are really good at is finding the limit and then riding right on the edge of it, lap after lap, they'll be making time on the brakes, in the corners and getting back on the power.

The only advantage Mr Bloggs has is when the power is wound right on.
____________________
I am a bellend, I am a man of constant sorrow, I am a gummy bear, I am a rock.

[RhynoCZ]

[Hetzer]

We did this to death a couple of years ago. I think the ability of the pros is vastly over-rated, unless I'm to be considered as highly above average ( I don't think I am, I just think the pros are good riders who have had years of practice riding on tracks).

The practice allows the pros to ride their bikes on the bleeding edge in corners without regularly coming off. A good amateur can hit 90% and would thus piss all over Rossi if riding a thou vs a 750 (roughly similar rider weight).

I guess we need to define "amateur" in that case. Guys who don't have a clue/the balls to get the bike leaned right over in fast corners? Or just guys who haven't had enough practice to do that extremely well? Which is it?
____________________
"There's the horizon! Ride hard, ride fast and cut down all who stand in your way!"

[Musketeer]

Realistically unless Rossi is on something like SV650 or slower I don't think any average Joe like yourself would keep up on his R1. The more technical track the more money I would bet on Rossi.

With somebody like track day regular from top of fast group vs Rossi I would say Rossi would have to ride 600cc proper sport i.e. CBR600RR so you could keep up on your R1.. still I would bet money on Rossi on most of the UK tracks
____________________
Current Bike: Yamaha XSR900 Previous bikes: Honda CBR1000RR Fireblade, Kawasaki ZX-6R Ninja, Aprilia RS125 2-stroke

[krarkol]

One thing I've noticed from watching onboards of the pro's compared to people doing trackdays or even amateurs is the braking into corners.

It seems amateurs don't brake anywhere near the limit and rely a lot on engine braking and usually end up entering the corner way under the maximum speed it can be taken.

Take Oulton for example, the first corner. Even the fast lads on trackdays brake loads into it, yet when you watch BSB they seem to just roll off the throttle slightly and don't appear to slow down that much for it. They really hang off their bikes to get the extra lean to do it and almost have the sides of their bike scraping the floor. Compared to the fast lads having their bike at around 45 degrees or so.

I think a lot of people have the potential, it's whether they actually have the balls to push it that extra bit further.

My opinion on myself...I'd probably feel more at home on the TT circuit rather than a track. I can be pretty quick on the road and could keep up with quick lads on the twisties, yet on a track I find I didn't trust my suspension or anything and hated the pegs scraping out even on pretty shallow bends. On the road you don't need to go for silly lean angles to navigate a bend.
____________________
Bandit 600 - deaded

[Dave500]

Fairly sure Rossi could beat me on a push bike nevermind with one with an engine in.
____________________
Bye bye Z hello Versys

[RhynoCZ]

[Wull]

You'd have a better chance against that other guy,what's his name.........Jorge Lorenzo I think
____________________
"Scooters are for men who want to ride motorcycles but prefer to feel the wind on their vaginas"

[Kickstart]

Hi

Track experience is a large part of it, but the fast riders have plenty of that. Years back taking photos at a track day about the fastest bike in the intermediate group at Cadwell was an Aprilia RS125 with a Superteen rider. So a rider with a bit of race experience quicker than plenty of riders on 600s (or bigger) with track experience.

Similarly taking photos at Silverstone once there was a guy on a race prepared SZR660. Silverstone is a fast track where power is important, yet this relatively low powered single was one of the quickest bikes in the advanced group.

Rossi has a hell of a lot of experience to make the most of the bike. Even taking the corners flat out, he has the experience to take the shortest line round the bends flat out.

All the best

Keith
____________________
Traxpics, track day and racing photographs - Bimota Forum - Bike performance / thrust graphs for choosing gearing

[Slacker24seve...]

[krarkol]

Which is why I think people on 400's can keep up with bigger bikes usually.

If the maximum speed of a corner is 70mph, it doesn't matter what you have, that is the maximum you can take that corner.

A bigger bike may have to start braking for the corner at say 150mph. Whereas a 400, maybe 120.

The bigger bike has to brake a lot earlier as they have more speed to shave off. The 400, probably a late dab on the brakes and they'll throw it in.

Now an average rider will probably do 60mph through that 70mph corner. Chances are, braking from 150mph they may take that corner at 50mph as they've shaved off too much speed due to inexperience and probably just wanting to get rid of that speed before entering the bend as they don't want to fuck it up and go straight on into a tyre wall. Whereas the guy on the 400 isn't going too fast anyway and feels at a comfortable speed already, so he probably has more sense of speed and how fast he can throw it in.
____________________
Bandit 600 - deaded