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Israeli government filth.

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G
The Voice of Reason



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PostPosted: 22:22 - 04 Aug 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
swampy wrote:

Israel can win. They can take the moral high ground and not respond to attacks.

Do you (or anyone else suggesting Israel shouldn't respond) really believe that any country in the world could often have over 100 rockets landing in their country and not do anything?

Similarly, do you really believe that a government that did nothing could stay in power and not very quickly receive a vote of no confidence.

I suspect a good number of the munitions are basically glorified fireworks, but the 'M-302 rocket' has also been discussed - it has a range of around 100 miles, isn't too accurate (considerably less so than Israel's weapons, not that Hamas seems too bothered by such things) and can carry a 175kg war head apparently.
I was watching a BBC program on explosives, which reminds how much damage a small amount of explosive can do.
Here's 2kg of C4 blowing a bus up - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nc98hzR-tk - we're talking 87 times that.

While Iron Dome is being touted as amazing and so on, the success rate is apparently 90%. So for every 100 they try and stop, 10 will get through.


Quote:
Are you saying that Israel are justified in their actions, even if you believe your statement about Hamas to be true?

As above, I cannot see any other course of action that would work in the real world.
What do you think, that could be done in the real world, their government should do?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter
Seems it may be of less relevance now.
In the end, I don't think anyone can deny that if you stood the BNP next to Hamas, they might as well be 'bronies' for general nastiness.
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Doovy
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PostPosted: 23:25 - 04 Aug 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
At least this guy gets it.
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-Matt-
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PostPosted: 00:10 - 05 Aug 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Doovy wrote:
We're just giving them what they want. They'll only be coming over with suicide vests on in a few years anyway Laughing
So with that in mind - why do you think what Israel is doing currently is firstly a good idea and secondly has the 'protection of the Israeli people' at the front of why its happening.

If anything is going to help create waves of potential suicide bombers and other militants - its attacking schools full of women and children. Wiping out thousands of innocent members of civilians families is a golden ticket to creating the exact sort of people Hamas and other organisations want as militants for suicide attacks.

There are other ways to go about finding and removing rocket caches with the assistance of ground forces being a key one, besides having to blanket-bomb large areas and 'precision strike' heavily populated buildings because there may or may not be some rockets nearby.

Quote:
You have to remember. These people want to die. They want to be martyrs.

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The thing is, Israelis can deal with a two-state solution if it means peace, it's the Arabs who can't. Peace is not their goal.

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Well when the terms 'Israeli', 'Zionists' and 'Jews' are all used interchangeably as they currently are, then why the fuck not eh.
So you think anti-Israeli arguements are generally able to be ticked off as being anti-zionist/anti-semitism... Yet yourself are happy to refer to 'these people' and 'arabs' seemingly accusing the entire Palestinian/Arab population of not wanting peace. Oh and to back it up, and show that even the kids don't want peace - you quote a single video of a few children Thinking well that seems fair and not at all judgemental of an entire people Rolling Eyes I have no doubt many if not most Israeli civilians don't want to destroy Palestine or its people, just as I have no doubt most Palestinians don't want Israel to be wiped out - the governments on both sides however have different aims and agenda's it seems. Just because some people on one side play dirty at times doesn't remove the responsibility to act in a way that doesn't stoop to that level.

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Because they're radical muslims, and the reason why Britain / USA is not getting involved as it fucking well should because they know the same will happen here / there again - as it has in the past.

It's gonna happen here with the Jihadists. Seriously.

When was the last time you heard Jews blowing up buses in London or taking down whole train lines? Laughing
You really think Britain and the USA isn't getting involved out of fear of aggrivating some radical Muslims? I would say thats become one of our strong points after Iraq and Afghanistan and is probably one of the last things our governments care to consider when entering conflicts. Getting involved with anything in Israel whether they actually wanted to or not - would firstly not have even a fraction of the many financial benefits to various groups as 'intervention' in Iraq and Afghanistan has, and so long as Israel remains in its current state of control at a minimum its more than enough to satisfy the military and security-benefits for the U.S that Israel can offer through shared intelligence and weapons programmes.

When was the last time you heard about people who aren't Jihadists commiting terrorist attacks?

Islamic jihadism has killed far less people across Europe than home-grown non-Islamic terrorism has. Consider for example the IRA, ETA, Neo-nazi groups - the likes of Anders Breivik for one, ironically fighting against Islamic extremism allegedly. So why the mass-panic and hysteria about Jihadism? Probably because of the constant paranoid propaganda that gets spouted on the news everyday since 9/11. I'd be much more concerned about other aspects of terrorism and homegrown attacks personally. America's own citizens commiting mass-shootings has racked up a toll over half that of 9/11 alone since it happened, and the remaining number of gun-related deaths makes the toll of terrorist attacks pale into insignificance - if I was an American i'd be vastly worried about the threat of my own citizens rather than Islamists - but you won't see much panic-stirring in the media about that, because the likes of the ARA and all the corporations that lobby and back-hand fund many polititions won't appreciate it Laughing If protection of America citizens was a priority that would be first on the table, but its not.

More convenient and profitable abroad to continue the hysteria surrounding Islamists, and acts as a great way to encourage people to let the walls of privacy get smashed to pieces on a daily basis to 'protect against Islamists' and also just so happens to let the government get away with an awful lot of data-harvesting that has absolutely nothing to do with Islamists. But hey, as long as we're safe from the big-bad jihadists that are blowing everything up on a daily basis Thinking
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stigger
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PostPosted: 00:24 - 05 Aug 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Doovy wrote:
At least this guy gets it.


No he doesn't.

Without Israel there'd be no Hamas, they'd be no PLO. To be honest without the west's constant backing of everyone over Muslims they'd probably be now radical Islam.

You can only get people to blow themselves up when their lives are so shit anything else is better.

Israel only wanted a 2 state solution as a stop gap in the beginning as a stop gap before driving Arabs into the sea, and now as a survival method as otherwise the Arabs would out number them and that would be the end of their Jewish state. You can't have a theocracy when the population don't rate your god.
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stigger
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PostPosted: 00:27 - 05 Aug 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
krarkol wrote:
Pretty difficult trying to be peaceful when at first you are oppressed from the new state by the Palestinians, then just because you have more money and decide to put defenses in place, you are made to look like the bad ones.

Tbh this debate reminds me a lot like school. Another pupil randomly went up to a mate and repeatedly hit him in the face. My mate didn't throw a single punch. When the head came and dealt with it, they said "it's a good job you didn't throw a punch back, otherwise you'd be in just as much trouble." Where's the logic in that?

In my opinion, if someone attacks you, you can attack them back. Doesn't really matter how big your weapons are, if they are aware of that then they've got what is coming.

If someone randomly punched me in the face for being in "their area" I'd probably repeatedly hit them till they are on the floor. I know I'm capable of doing so and in the name of self-defence I will do. It then gives me a chance to leave the area.

The issue with Israel is they can't just pick it up and go somewhere else just because they are surrounded by people who have despised them for for almost 2000 years.


You really need to keep up, grownups are talking.
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G
The Voice of Reason



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PostPosted: 00:50 - 05 Aug 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
I suspect the panic over Islamic terrorism is they have big intentions - and certainly carried that out with with 11/9.

As mentioned previously probably, the benefit to us is that it killed off the IRA, basically.

Quote:
You can only get people to blow themselves up when their lives are so shit anything else is better.

Really?
So Abdul Waheed Majid blew himself up in Syria because his life in Crawley sucked so much?
Quote:


There are other ways to go about finding and removing rocket caches with the assistance of ground forces being a key one, besides having to blanket-bomb large areas and 'precision strike' heavily populated buildings because there may or may not be some rockets nearby.

Do you not think that would be likely to lead to even more escalated violence, with just the sort of Guerilla warfare Hamas would relish?

Any other suggestions?
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mentalboy
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PostPosted: 00:54 - 05 Aug 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
G wrote:

So Abdul Waheed Majid blew himself up in Syria because his life in Crawley sucked so much?


Have you ever been to Crawley.... Laughing
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stigger
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PostPosted: 01:12 - 05 Aug 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
G wrote:
I suspect the panic over Islamic terrorism is they have big intentions - and certainly carried that out with with 11/9.

As mentioned previously probably, the benefit to us is that it killed off the IRA, basically.

Quote:
You can only get people to blow themselves up when their lives are so shit anything else is better.

Really?
So Abdul Waheed Majid blew himself up in Syria because his life in Crawley sucked so much?
Quote:


There are other ways to go about finding and removing rocket caches with the assistance of ground forces being a key one, besides having to blanket-bomb large areas and 'precision strike' heavily populated buildings because there may or may not be some rockets nearby.

Do you not think that would be likely to lead to even more escalated violence, with just the sort of Guerilla warfare Hamas would relish?

Any other suggestions?
There are always headcases, but not enough generally to maintain operations.

It's v simple for Israeli's just leave, it's not your country fuck off back to Europe where you came from.
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smegballs
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PostPosted: 01:30 - 05 Aug 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
stigger wrote:
It's v simple for Israeli's just leave, it's not your country fuck off back to Europe where you came from.


Did they come from Europe? Can't be that many of the initial postwar settlers left now. Almost all Israelis under-50 will have been born there (some from jewish international resettlement obviously), many won't have ever been to europe on a visit let alone have any "homeland" connection with euro countries.

Should all the african-born whites in various countries "fuck off back to Europe where they came from"? The white africans I've met, mainly from SA and Zimbabwe, consider africa to be their home, not europe.
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stigger
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PostPosted: 01:46 - 05 Aug 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
smegballs wrote:
stigger wrote:
It's v simple for Israeli's just leave, it's not your country fuck off back to Europe where you came from.


Did they come from Europe? Can't be that many of the initial postwar settlers left now. Almost all Israelis under-50 will have been born there (some from jewish international resettlement obviously), many won't have ever been to europe on a visit let alone have any "homeland" connection with euro countries.

Should all the african-born whites in various countries "fuck off back to Europe where they came from"? The white africans I've met, mainly from SA and Zimbabwe, consider africa to be their home, not europe.
There was a massive influx post the collapse of USSR, and many of them are the mosy Zionist and anti Palestinian.

Well they can do what the SA/Rhodesians did which is to give the country back and just live there, trouble is that isn't a Jewish state which is the aim of Zionists.
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krarkol
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PostPosted: 09:45 - 05 Aug 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
stigger wrote:
krarkol wrote:
Pretty difficult trying to be peaceful when at first you are oppressed from the new state by the Palestinians, then just because you have more money and decide to put defenses in place, you are made to look like the bad ones.

Tbh this debate reminds me a lot like school. Another pupil randomly went up to a mate and repeatedly hit him in the face. My mate didn't throw a single punch. When the head came and dealt with it, they said "it's a good job you didn't throw a punch back, otherwise you'd be in just as much trouble." Where's the logic in that?

In my opinion, if someone attacks you, you can attack them back. Doesn't really matter how big your weapons are, if they are aware of that then they've got what is coming.

If someone randomly punched me in the face for being in "their area" I'd probably repeatedly hit them till they are on the floor. I know I'm capable of doing so and in the name of self-defence I will do. It then gives me a chance to leave the area.

The issue with Israel is they can't just pick it up and go somewhere else just because they are surrounded by people who have despised them for for almost 2000 years.


You really need to keep up, grownups are talking.


So you keep saying. I didn't know "grown ups" needed to keep reminding everyone how grown up they are.
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stigger
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PostPosted: 10:18 - 05 Aug 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
krarkol wrote:
So you keep saying. I didn't know "grown ups" needed to keep reminding everyone how grown up they are.
Well you don't seem to get the message.

If you keep posting childish untrained tosh then you'll get called on it.
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headlamp
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PostPosted: 10:34 - 05 Aug 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
smegballs wrote:
stigger wrote:
It's v simple for Israeli's just leave, it's not your country fuck off back to Europe where you came from.


Did they come from Europe? Can't be that many of the initial postwar settlers left now. Almost all Israelis under-50 will have been born there (some from jewish international resettlement obviously), many won't have ever been to europe on a visit let alone have any "homeland" connection with euro countries.

Should all the african-born whites in various countries "fuck off back to Europe where they came from"? The white africans I've met, mainly from SA and Zimbabwe, consider africa to be their home, not europe.


Not all Jews who settled in Israel came from Europe. There has been a Jewish presence in the area since the Roman times that grew slowly in the late 19th century, grew faster in the early 20th century and very rapidly after 1948. As I said earlier, around 800,000 came from surrounding Arab countries in the 1950's and 1960's as a result of oppression and racial discrimination. I somehow feel they won't feel particularly comfortable emigrating to Europe and they certainly can't go back to where they came as they'd get probably get massacred.
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stigger
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PostPosted: 10:54 - 05 Aug 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
headlamp wrote:
Not all Jews who settled in Israel came from Europe. There has been a Jewish presence in the area since the Roman times that grew slowly in the late 19th century, grew faster in the early 20th century and very rapidly after 1948. As I said earlier, around 800,000 came from surrounding Arab countries in the 1950's and 1960's as a result of oppression and racial discrimination. I somehow feel they won't feel particularly comfortable emigrating to Europe and they certainly can't go back to where they came as they'd get probably get massacred.


The majority of Jews in Palestine come from Europe.

Even Jewish published figures show the Zionist push of Jews from Europe from the mid 1800's onwards with acceleration post Balfour and again post war.

The Brits saw what was happening and tried to stop it and then gave up and abandoned the mandate.

There's no reason for Israel to exist.

Opps forgot link

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/israel_palestine_pop.html
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CaNsA
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PostPosted: 11:18 - 05 Aug 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Doovy wrote:

CaNsA wrote:
But why did Hamas attack?
What makes you think that Hamas started this?


Because they're radical muslims, and the reason why Britain / USA is not getting involved as it fucking well should because they know the same will happen here / there again - as it has in the past.

It's gonna happen here with the Jihadists. Seriously.

When was the last time you heard Jews blowing up buses in London or taking down whole train lines? Laughing

Worst thing we'll do is haggle you to death...

So let me see if i understand that statement.

If you use an army it's not terrorism?
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Hetzer
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PostPosted: 11:28 - 05 Aug 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
All wars ultimately descend to fighting terrorism with terrorism. The military stamp of legitimacy, however, becomes utterly bogus once the wholesale slaughter of children becomes the norm. As it is in Gaza.

Israel is a terrorist state fighting a terrorist state. Both fire weapons indiscriminately into civilian populations. It just happens that Israel has the far superior technology.

Shame it didn't use it to climb onto the moral high-ground. But that's never been an option for sociopaths, and Israel, like most other countries, is run by them.
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CaNsA
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PostPosted: 11:31 - 05 Aug 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Look Doovy,

I understand why you are saying what you are saying, but it is ok to disagree with the actions of "your people".
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Doovy
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PostPosted: 11:43 - 05 Aug 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hetzer wrote:
Shame it didn't use it to climb onto the moral high-ground.


They've tried, over the years. And this is where it has gotten them.

CaNsA wrote:
Look Doovy,

I understand why you are saying what you are saying, but it is ok to disagree with the actions of "your people".


I agree that the death of children is not good and of course would like to be avoided, if it were possible. Fact is, Hamas is not protecting the children of Gaza. Instead of building shelters, they built tunnels to house weaponry. Priorities, eh.
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CaNsA
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PostPosted: 11:57 - 05 Aug 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Doovy wrote:
I agree that the death of children is not good and of course would like to be avoided, if it were possible. Fact is, Hamas is not protecting the children of Gaza. Instead of building shelters, they built tunnels to house weaponry. Priorities, eh.


But fuck 'em, they're only kids.

You gotta protect your self from those state-of-the-art bunker busting guided missiles right?

Oh wait... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Dome
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smegballs
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PostPosted: 12:03 - 05 Aug 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Why does Gaza have so many kids?

Who the fuck would want to bring children into the world knowing what an oppressive, horrible life they will live confined in the strip.
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CaNsA
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PostPosted: 12:14 - 05 Aug 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oh Doovy, you have lost what little credibility you had.

https://i.imgur.com/ZSSKANs.png

https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=3949311#3949311

I certainly don't think it's cool for the navy to attack a mosque from a mile offshore.



Edit:- That's a disappointed by you"Oh" by the way.
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-Matt-
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PostPosted: 12:27 - 05 Aug 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well it looks like they might of had enough for this time.

Ground troops are being withdrawn from the strip.

And apparently its been a great victory and success Rolling Eyes
Quote:
In a statement just ahead of the withdrawal, the IDF said that since then it had eliminated 32 tunnels designed to allow militants to carry out raids into Israel, destroyed 3,000 missiles on the ground and killed about 900 "terrorists".

The IDF estimated that some 3,300 rockets had been fired at Israel during this period, and that Hamas had another 3,000 rockets left for future use.

Would love to see what information lead them to confidently declare these figures. Little evidence of rocket caches was found before or after at many of the civilian locations that have suffered high casualty rates. Although maybe thats because they were fairly relentlessly bombed into little pieces along with all the children inside.

Sadly I expect the number of militants will soon be replenished to even higher than before, along with more rockets as a result, and of course tunnels will be re-dug. All seems a little pointless really.

Perhaps they could consider investing more military budget into better technology to detect tunnels, instead of spending it on massive amounts of artillery and near-blind firing into civlian zones next time.

Last edited by -Matt- on 12:31 - 05 Aug 2014; edited 1 time in total
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CaNsA
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PostPosted: 12:30 - 05 Aug 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
-Matt- wrote:
Ground troops are being withdrawn from the strip.

72hrs ceasefire
or
72hrs preparation
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Skudd
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PostPosted: 12:38 - 05 Aug 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
I love this "Oh the women and children" stuff. We forget that in those parts of the world and many like them, women and children are worth less than a goat ( and a goat is worth less than a sheep)

Same way with all these appeals on the TV for aid. Think of the women and children...................... perhaps the protagonists should think about them first. O look we have no food......... lets create more kids ................ oh look we are being bombed .............. lets make more kids .............. oh look we can't afford the basics ........... lets make more kids. And no it isn't like WW1 or WW2 when our people shagged one last time before going to war. These wars and famines have been going on for years, even hundreds of years in some instances.
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G
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PostPosted: 13:11 - 05 Aug 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
CaNsA wrote:

I understand why you are saying what you are saying, but it is ok to disagree with the actions of "your people".

Also, it's ok to disagree with the actions of an organisation/area which launches indiscriminate attacks on civilians, that murders political opponents, that severely restricts the rights of women, that was founded partly with the intention to irradicate a neighbour.

Yet I don't really see that happening much at all from the people that are happy to critics the 'other side'.

I have no problem with so many of the criticisms of Israel, but Hamas ends up being the Elephant in the room when they are not mentioned - or some suggest are actually taking a sensible course of action in relation to the welfare of the people of Gaza.
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Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 9 years, 264 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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