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Oldie
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PostPosted: 19:54 - 15 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, the Mash is expensive if you compare it with it's little brother (Sinnis Roadstar/Mash 250). That's possibly because the 250 could just have easily been priced at £2850 and still found that (very small) "enthusiast" group who just fancy buying one. As it is, the 250 is well priced.

As for the WK650, at least in TR guise, it should be selling more at those prices although ageing Deauvillists will be put off by the chain. It's the kind of bike you'd buy if you didn't read forums.
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linuxyeti
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PostPosted: 22:39 - 15 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Yeah, I've got a WK, although, I paid considerably less than the current asking price, for an ex demo machine. Again, yes, that's a good bike, just a poor choice of partner/distributor by CFMoto.

Anyhow, back to the Mash, so far I haven't seen much in the way of discounting on the Mash.

Also, I came very very close to to getting a Sinnis 250, until I found the Mash 400, which once I test ridden, I was smitten Smile. And to be fair, it's still my favourite commuter, and comes a very close second to mt Enfield for character.

The CF650TR, is brilliant on longer runs, very comfy & very smooth. I've fitted tutoro auto chain oilers to both the Mash & CF, which is keeping the chains nicely lubricated.

You are absolutely right though, if they were to make the 650TR a shaft drive, it would be extremely hard to fault.

And, for poor weather riding, I have my RX-3.

Cheers

Tony
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 23:06 - 15 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oldie wrote:
Yes, the Mash is expensive if you compare it with it's little brother (Sinnis Roadstar/Mash 250). That's possibly because the 250 could just have easily been priced at £2850 and still found that (very small) "enthusiast" group who just fancy buying one. As it is, the 250 is well priced.

As for the WK650, at least in TR guise, it should be selling more at those prices although ageing Deauvillists will be put off by the chain. It's the kind of bike you'd buy if you didn't read forums.


It's the kind of bike I'd buy if Kawasaki made it.

Ageing Deauvallists wont buy it for the same reason I won't, it's Chinese. You will need a couple of generations of people happy with Chinese bikes for something like that to sell well and you are probably approaching that point now.

People like Linuxyeti being protagonists of Chines bikes and running them are starting to bring them into mainstream choice. Without appearing rude, I find his reports stating that nothing, nada, bugger all ever goes wrong with his Chinese bikes a bit, how can I put it, rose coloured.

My son had a Chinese bike, it was tat. Now I'm sure they have moved on. I'm also sure they haven't moved on to compete with the quality and reliability of the mainstream manufacturers,

So, to my way of thinking, the people you have to convince are the young people of today, you'll never convince old Deauville, Trophy, FJR, GTR, Sprint, VFR riders and all us oldies to buy a Chinese tourer.
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linuxyeti
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PostPosted: 06:59 - 16 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why rose tinted? I've said in the past, on the chinese bikes I've used in the bad weather, I've disconnected the side stand switch, I've also already stated, that if I'm going to use the satnav regularly on the Mash, I will probably need a better battery in the long run.

The last bike I replaced was my Skyteam V-Raptor, this was my bike that I'd used in all weathers, predominently my winter bike, and to top that off, it had spent virtually all of it's 5 years stored outside, under a cheap sub £10.00 cover, and again, apart from disconnecting the side stand switch, and replacing 1 headlight bulb, 1 tail light bulb and the chain a sprockets, each once in those 5 years, I can't really see how that can be construed as bad??

Perhaps it's because I look after my bikes, clean them, service them etc. Hence additions such as the auto chain oiler etc, that I don't seem to suffer any major, and few minor issues?

And yes it's true, the Mash 400 has not given me any problems, has not suffered any reliability issues, I know I can rely on the bike to get me to work, and more importantly, back home from work Smile I haven't even disconnected the side stand switch, as I don't intend to ride it in the crap weather.

Likewise, going off topic slightly, I don't really intend to ride the CF650 all that much in bad weather, there's a lot of bike to clean, however, I don't have any trepidation or fear in taking the bike out for rides that will be well in excess of 200 miles.

The Enfield, not chinese, now that's a bike that needs appreciable additional looking after to keep running in tip top condition.

I have also had non chinese bikes in the past, the VTX1300 was by far and away my best bike overall, but even that had the occasional issues, the odd blown fuse, usually to the cooling fan, and corroded forks & exhaust studs.

I've always wanted a Triumph Rocket, and may still get 1 at some point, however, I have been put off Triumph's more than I would have thought, by how easily my America suffered corrosion issues, and the engine cutting out randomly, even after the ecu had been remapped. Oh, and if we're going to mention depreciation, The America's depreciation was really hard to stomach !! But, that's another story

The worst issue I've suffered with any of my bikes, has been a bust clutch cable on my Chituma, when I was still on L plates, and still learning the importance of regular upkeep of a motorbike, but even then, managed to bodge it and ride the remaining 30 miles home from work.
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DJP
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PostPosted: 07:38 - 16 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
It's the kind of bike I'd buy if Kawasaki made it.

Ageing Deauvallists wont buy it for the same reason I won't, it's Chinese. You will need a couple of generations of people happy with Chinese bikes for something like that to sell well and you are probably approaching that point now.

People like Linuxyeti being protagonists of Chines bikes and running them are starting to bring them into mainstream choice. Without appearing rude, I find his reports stating that nothing, nada, bugger all ever goes wrong with his Chinese bikes a bit, how can I put it, rose coloured.

My son had a Chinese bike, it was tat. Now I'm sure they have moved on. I'm also sure they haven't moved on to compete with the quality and reliability of the mainstream manufacturers,

So, to my way of thinking, the people you have to convince are the young people of today, you'll never convince old Deauville, Trophy, FJR, GTR, Sprint, VFR riders and all us oldies to buy a Chinese tourer.


Pretty much this^^.

Except that I wouldn't buy it whoever made it because it's a pile of under-powered, outdated shit. Mr. Green
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linuxyeti
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PostPosted: 08:49 - 16 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:10 - 16 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

DJP wrote:
Except that I wouldn't buy it whoever made it because it's a pile of under-powered, outdated shit. Mr. Green

MT-07:
Power: 73.76 HP (53.8 kW) @ 9000 RPM
Torque: 68.00 Nm (6.9 kgf-m or 50.2 ft.lbs) @ 6900 RPM


CFMoto/WK 650
Power: 69.73 HP (50.9 kW) @ 8500 RPM
Torque: 62.00 Nm (6.3 kgf-m or 45.7 ft.lbs) @ 7000 RPM

Within spitting distance. The appeal of the MT-07 for me isn't so much the engine, it's the weight, 182kg (wet, ABS) vs 206kg (wet, no ABS), and that fact that it has ABS. On a brand new bike that would be kept for years, that's a deal breaker for me.

Actually, all of this is likely to become academic in about 7 months when the great cull of non-Euro4 / ABS / OBD / Nanny Chipped bikes happens. If you want a cheap(ish) Chinese bike, the clock is ticking.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 09:32 - 16 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I presume we will still implement all the euro rules even if we fuck off from europe.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:09 - 16 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
I presume we will still implement all the euro rules even if we fuck off from europe.

Who knows? If we want to sell into Europe, Triumph will have to do so, but I believe they already have.

Importing and selling bikes into the UK though, we could sod off all the Eurobollocks. Thing is, I don't imagine most of the sweaty parts of the Continent are going to be much bothered about them anyway.
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DJP
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PostPosted: 12:11 - 16 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
DJP wrote:
Except that I wouldn't buy it whoever made it because it's a pile of under-powered, outdated shit. Mr. Green

MT-07:
Power: 73.76 HP (53.8 kW) @ 9000 RPM
Torque: 68.00 Nm (6.9 kgf-m or 50.2 ft.lbs) @ 6900 RPM


CFMoto/WK 650
Power: 69.73 HP (50.9 kW) @ 8500 RPM
Torque: 62.00 Nm (6.3 kgf-m or 45.7 ft.lbs) @ 7000 RPM

Within spitting distance. The appeal of the MT-07 for me isn't so much the engine, it's the weight, 182kg (wet, ABS) vs 206kg (wet, no ABS), and that fact that it has ABS. On a brand new bike that would be kept for years, that's a deal breaker for me.

Actually, all of this is likely to become academic in about 7 months when the great cull of non-Euro4 / ABS / OBD / Nanny Chipped bikes happens. If you want a cheap(ish) Chinese bike, the clock is ticking.


And where can you buy one of these and for how much? (The 650, that is).
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 13:33 - 16 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

DJP wrote:
And where can you buy one of these and for how much? (The 650, that is).

Rogerborg wrote:
That said, the WK650 for £3450 OTR is getting close.

Give or take a few £££.

Nekkid:
https://www.wkbikes.com/650cc_motorbikes_wk-650i.html

Pan-Eulo stylee:
https://www.wkbikes.com/650cc_motorbikes_wk-650tr.html

Locate a dealer (good luck, it's spazzed):
https://www.wkbikes.com/locate.htm

eBayers are flogging the naked for £3K + OTR, new.
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DJP
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PostPosted: 14:32 - 16 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then I would concur that it's getting close to where it needs to be price wise.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 15:23 - 16 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

DJP wrote:
Then I would concur that it's getting close to where it needs to be price wise.

I acquiesce to your concurrence.

Sadly, they were asking £4400 OTR when they launched in 2012. At that point you could get a brand new SV650S for pretty much the same money, and why wouldn't you?

So, initial sales were weak. From 2012 to the end of 2015, the naked sold 8, 29, 24, and 36 bikes per year (notice the hike when they cut the price last year), while the faired TR sold 0, 8, 13 and 22 over the same period.

Perhaps tellingly, of the 97 nakeds sold, it looks like 9 were already scrapped (and 10 were SORN) within 4 years. Of the 43 TRs, 2 had been scrapped before their first MOT.

If they'd introduced them at their current prices, they might have sold like gangbusters despite the ropey pre- and after-sales experience. And with lots of owners saying good things about them (even if it was making allowances just because of the price) they'd have got free marketing from that.

But it was delusional trying to sneak them in just under the bottom end of the Japanese incumbents and ensured that (essentially) nobody bought them until they slashes the prices. We've seen reports here of engines lunching themselves and warranty claims being fobbed off. The few positive reports like linuxyeti's tend to be from running-in mileages, where it would be astonishing if anything had gone wrong.

Meanwhile, WK bikes continue to pour money into a TT venture to publicise a fully faired 650 bike that they don't even sell. Although hilariously they do have an ~11hp 125 hack in their TT colours. Laughing


Sorry, veering back on topic, Mash are actually doing better, with 61 sales in (essentially) their first year.

However, I suspect they'll tap out that market pretty fast and we'll either see price cuts, or the importer will simply lose interest. Could be wrong, I hope I am.
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Sable
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PostPosted: 19:01 - 16 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Same over on the Mash forum.

Getting a balanced review out of a Mash owner seems impossible.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 19:26 - 16 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

£3599 for that WK tourer is silly money. (silly cheap). I'm almost tempted to buy one and lay it up for when I'm too fragile to manhandle something the size of my Trophy.

Almost...........

Or I could spend £20000 on a Can Am. Mr. Green

But £3599, That is ludicrous. An ER6F is £6049.
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Oldie
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PostPosted: 21:50 - 16 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

But you can get a well sorted Deauville for £1200 - that's 3 for the price of one. Not everyone's cup of tea, of course, but I genuinely love riding mine.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 22:31 - 16 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oldie wrote:
But you can get a well sorted Deauville for £1200 - that's 3 for the price of one. Not everyone's cup of tea, of course, but I genuinely love riding mine.


Oh I agree. My mate had one that he took all over Europe till it got white van manned. I really rate them.

It's just how cheap that ER6 clone tourer is that is amazing me. However amazing though, I won't buy one because there are many other bikes I would rather spend £3500 on. I fancy a V Max for the lols.

I have my Trophy for distance, the scruffy Fazer for pottering around on and the wifes ER6 for when I am low on fuel in the other bikes Thumbs Up

So I really don't NEED another bike Laughing
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linuxyeti
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PostPosted: 22:43 - 16 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can never have too many bikes Smile. I have my 4 motorbikes and 2 push bikes, to go with the car & camper Smile And now I'm on the lookout for a fixer upper 4stroke 50cc for when the nephew is 16, then it'll be one for my daughter the year after.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 08:48 - 17 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

linuxyeti wrote:
Can never have too many bikes Smile.

No, my angel, not up to anything, I just though it was time to get all that junk at the back of the garage organised onto shelves. Let's hoist the pushbikes up to the rafters, then I'll do a run to the recycling centre like a good citizen and - oh my goodness! It appears that there's now room for a third motorcycle in there. How fortuitous!

Gumtree-F5-F5-F5.
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linuxyeti
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PostPosted: 12:58 - 06 Jun 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sable wrote:

Getting a balanced review out of a Mash owner seems impossible.


Why don't you think my review is balanced?
    Issues - None
    Suitability for commuting to work, motorway & other roads - ideal
    Battery - With the satnav attached, I think it could probably do with a higher capacity battery, as after a week or 2 layoff in cold weather, the start can be a bit laboured.
    Reliability - 100% - Never let me down, never not got me to where I want to go
    Fuel economy - approaching 80mpg, which I think is pretty acceptable
    Fun factor - For me, I find it fun to ride, especially through the Staffordshire, Warwickshire & Shropshire countryside.
    Would I race it? - Well, obviously not, there are many more bikes around more suitable for racing.
    Would I trust riding it to John O'Groats? - Yes, if need be, but I have another bike more suited to distance riding. And yes, I have taken a chinese bike up to John O'Groats before (A Lifan LF400, along with my stepson on his)
    Could the bike be improved - Yes, of course, pretty much any bike can, however, the worst omission is the lack of a centre stand.
    Has it manage to reduce itself to produce? - No, no sign of any corrosion at all.
    What have I done to make it better for me? - Added a top box, and a satnav and tied the side stand switch up in the battery box, so I can warm it up on stand.
    Comparable bikes - Of the bikes I've owned or currently own, the closest in character and to some degree performance is my Enfield 350, however, the Mash requires appreciably less tlc/tinkering than the Enfield (ie none), has a higher comfortable cruising speed, has electric start and has 5 gears, not 4


Anyhow, I hope you find that review suitably balanced Smile
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G
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PostPosted: 13:42 - 06 Jun 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

linuxyeti wrote:

Why don't you think my review is balanced?

Suitability for commuting to work, motorway & other roads - ideal

None of the bikes you've owned go near the point of what I'd consider 'decent'.

Which suggests your 'ideal' rating may not relate to my thoughts on the matter.
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blue_painted
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PostPosted: 13:48 - 06 Jun 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fuelling - Problems causing cut out slowing to idle. Mostly fixed by two mods under warranty.
Commuting - Ideal - 80 mpg at 80-ish mph
Reliability- The fuel problems, but picked up and sorted under warranty. Blew the base gasket - fixed under warranty.
Fun factor - It's a good town bike, light and fairly fast.
Corrosion - I rode mine all through the "winter" with ACF50 on everything. The headers would spot rust as soon as looked at, the engine fasteners, nuts bolts etc. rusted on the edges. The rest was fine.
Tyres - Hideous Chinese tyres that went wooden in cold weather.
Brakes - Took a while to bed in, and then were fine although never fantastic.
Quality control - The demo bike I rode/borrowed while mine was being fixed was much smoother, felt a fair bit faster.
Niggles - Cutout switch on side-stand, no centre stand.

All round - a better bike that Fako- 350LC I had but I'm glad it had warranty!
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Sable
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PostPosted: 20:26 - 07 Jun 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

linuxyeti wrote:
Sable wrote:

Getting a balanced review out of a Mash owner seems impossible.


Why don't you think my review is balanced?


Because up until this point your rose tinted spectacles were overpowering. Without reading back over the thread this is the first post I remember where you have even hinted at things you didn't like such as the centre stand and battery.

Also, what G said and Blue Painteds post suggests there is a fault but WK fixed it, and he still seems to like it. In one post he's given a more balanced review than you have in 7 pages.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 21:14 - 07 Jun 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
None of the bikes you've owned go near the point of what I'd consider 'decent'.

Which suggests your 'ideal' rating may not relate to my thoughts on the matter.


Considering the state of bikes after you have owned them that could be considered a definate advantage.
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linuxyeti
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PostPosted: 21:32 - 07 Jun 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sable wrote:
there is a fault but WK fixed it


Why would WK fix it? It's a Mash bike.. Anyhow, the problems he had, have not been replicated on my bike, I've always said the lack of a centre stand is a bit of a pain, however, plenty of my other bikes haven't had a centre stand, and I've always had a dislike of side stand switches and I usually disconnect them straight away. There is nothing rose tinted about my view. The bike has not had to go back to the dealer for any rectification work, it has only been back to the dealer for servicing to maintain the warranty.

As I have said, there is no corrosion on any part of my bike, it has not broke down, it has not given me any cause for concern. I've had it practically a year now, and it's running really well, nothing had been replaced, nothing has dropped off, it has never cut out on me. Yes, I've generally avoided road grit on the Mash, but, again, not completely, it has been ridden in the rain, and hail, not so much snow, as we've not really had any this last winter. I ride my bikes all year round, however, I usually ride a bike that I don't mind being affected by rot from road salt so much. It is not, however, a garage queen by any stretch of the imagination. I'm not really sure what you want me to say, do you want me to make up faults to make you feel better?
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