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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 12:10 - 18 Jan 2015    Post subject: Rates of Inflation Reply with quote

Brought on buy JonB's mortgage thread.....

Can someone xplain to me why inflation is desirable?

I was listening to a political programme where they said Spain would be in negative inflation this year, or deflation if you prefer.

I thought, lucky bastards, everything will cost less, more for your wages which will mean less unrest, no (theoretically) wage rise demands.

Then the politicians/finance people went on that this would be a bad thing for the economy but didn't elaborate why.

What am I missing, why would it be a bad thing for the economy. As far as I can see people would spend more, companies could export more and sell more. Even the government would/should get more with VAT on increased spending.

So whats the catch?
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The Artist
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PostPosted: 12:25 - 18 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also debt gets screwed up. Especially long term low interest things like Mortgages. Since our economy is half based on debt, this could cause issues.

Say you are on a 2% interest mortgage and inflations is -2%, you could get a 25 year interest free loan. Obviously the offer would change once we got into negative inflation but a lot of people are on fixed plans.

Personally I think the "People not spending because their money will be worth more tomorrow" train of thought is a bit overblown. Yes it will in some cases be like that but people are not going to wait months/years for single digit % effective discounts. Also, prices would just go up. The only time this isn't effective is when deflation is rapid but that is unlikely.
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Andy_Pagin
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PostPosted: 13:20 - 18 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob Fzs wrote:
people holding back on purchases because something might be cheaper tomorrow, so a glut in demand for stuff and thus growth stagnating

so less jobs being created/ needed and less tax being paid , thats the general jist of it

Exactly this happened in Japan a few years ago, why buy a new TV when it'll be a lot cheaper next year, why buy a new car ... etc.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 13:26 - 18 Jan 2015    Post subject: Re: Rates of Inflation Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
So whats the catch?


The BS official line is that people hold off purchases, which creates a negative spiral. It is BS because you fill your petrol tank and buy most things in your life when you need them.


The major points are:

Deflation magnifies debts against incomes. The opposite occurred in the 1970s. People took our massive mortgages, but by the 1970s wage inflation meant their mortgages were trivial. The same thing happened with government debt millions owed to people were turned into trivial amounts.

Deflation leads to stagnating wages which amplifies the above.

The biggest reason is that inflation is a tool used by the government to steal your productivity without many people noticing. Keep £1000 in your mattress, devalue the currency 10% and they've stolen £100 without you noticing.

This also plays into the loan effect. When JonB/bacon butty shop takes out a loan they now have to pay a % to the bank to cover the interest. Inflation via credit/money creation increases the prices of assets. You can buy £1000 if you have £1000 but you can buy £10000 if the bank will loan you £9000 (that £9000 has an interest element of course).

But if prices fall to £8000 JonB only has to borrow £7000 and pay interest on £7000.




Because of the above governments run inflationary policies.

Which is why the printing press is oft mentioned. Except the way the US/UK did it it caused deflation because it reduced peoples' incomes and living standards. Japan gave out money to the citizens and it got swept up in the carry trade when it was unwound.
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Tracey Suntan-King
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PostPosted: 13:29 - 18 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've wondered about this too and read as much press stuff as I can stand to try to understand this.

My conclusion? Deflation is only a bad thing for business and government, not for the man in the street.

Capitalism is based on a need for continuous and constant growth to feed shareholders, company directors and government. Government because deflation has an effect on the cost of the national debt, borrowing may be cheap but the assets it is leveraged against are not increasing in value so debt gearing gets worse. Poor George then has a bigger problem to solve as the national balance sheet weakens......and his tax-take drops or rather doesn't increase as forecast = double whammy.

For consumers, I don't believe people put off major purchases, especially as retailers discount all the time anyway. Also, on a day to day basis, if stuff you need to buy is cheaper, you can buy more of it.

Don't fall for the hype, enjoy! Mr. Green
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The Artist
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PostPosted: 13:53 - 18 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tracey Suntan-King wrote:
My conclusion? Deflation is only a bad thing for business and government, not for the man in the street.


Thumbs Up

https://ideas.4brad.com/files/bitcoin.png

Bitcoin, the deflationary currency. (Technically inflationary at the moment but will get lower and lower until it becomes deflationary)
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BakesBeans
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PostPosted: 14:58 - 18 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Inflation = Money Supply x Velocity

Others have said deflation is bad because it delays spending, and discourages the circulation of money etc etc - which is good in economic theory, but I don't buy that in the UK today.

For example, look at TVs. If I delay buying one for a year, I'll get a much better one for the same price - and that's been going on for years. That didn't stop the economy falling apart now did it!

If you look at the above formula, inflation is simply the increase in money supply - i.e. how much debt is created, whether by the government or private banks, at any given time MULTIPLIED by velocity, which is how quickly it gets repeatedly re-spent.

The money supply has been growing at about 12% per year (that's before the BoE quantitative easing), but the velocity is tiny. Why? Because it mainly went into new mortgage debt, and that alone didn't boost the economy - the fact that you bought a house and the associated purchases did.

In fact, if you measure inflation as the cost of living, e.g. with everything involved we've had inflationary crisis for years - and house prices have proved that. It's just the economists chose to measure inflation as the cost of 'consuming' which is CPI, or the slightly better RPI (which still massively under estimates the cost of a roof over your head).


The big thing that matters is wage inflation.. this needs to continue to go up to 'inflate' the debt, and the public along with the private debt is massive! Any falling in prices, discourages you to ask to be paid more.. and that means the whole economic reality starts to fall apart.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 18:07 - 18 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

BakesBeans wrote:
Inflation = Money Supply x Velocity

Others have said deflation is bad because it delays spending, and discourages the circulation of money etc etc - which is good in economic theory, but I don't buy that in the UK today.

For example, look at TVs. If I delay buying one for a year, I'll get a much better one for the same price - and that's been going on for years. That didn't stop the economy falling apart now did it!

If you look at the above formula, inflation is simply the increase in money supply - i.e. how much debt is created, whether by the government or private banks, at any given time MULTIPLIED by velocity, which is how quickly it gets repeatedly re-spent.

The money supply has been growing at about 12% per year (that's before the BoE quantitative easing), but the velocity is tiny. Why? Because it mainly went into new mortgage debt, and that alone didn't boost the economy - the fact that you bought a house and the associated purchases did.

In fact, if you measure inflation as the cost of living, e.g. with everything involved we've had inflationary crisis for years - and house prices have proved that. It's just the economists chose to measure inflation as the cost of 'consuming' which is CPI, or the slightly better RPI (which still massively under estimates the cost of a roof over your head).


The big thing that matters is wage inflation.. this needs to continue to go up to 'inflate' the debt, and the public along with the private debt is massive! Any falling in prices, discourages you to ask to be paid more.. and that means the whole economic reality starts to fall apart.


I struggle to understand the logic.

That's not a criticism of you, it's of me!

I'm an intelligent bloke. I run a multi million pound fleet of LNG Carriers. I have done 3 refits around the world this years totaling 25 million dollars but struggle with this Laughing

I agree with Tracey, what the powers want is not what we do.
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Last edited by Polarbear on 08:41 - 19 Jan 2015; edited 1 time in total
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Ste
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PostPosted: 18:18 - 18 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Artist wrote:
Tracey Suntan-King wrote:
My conclusion? Deflation is only a bad thing for business and government, not for the man in the street.


Thumbs Up

https://ideas.4brad.com/files/bitcoin.png

Bitcoin, the deflationary currency. (Technically inflationary at the moment but will get lower and lower until it becomes deflationary)

https://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/2sdxo0/over_the_last_4_hours_bitcoin_is_the_best/
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iooi
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PostPosted: 18:42 - 18 Jan 2015    Post subject: Re: Rates of Inflation Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
Keep £1000 in your mattress, devalue the currency 10% and they've stolen £100 without you noticing.


Inflation or deflation. That 1K is still worth exactly the same, in your matteress....

Only its buyinng power has changed, should you decide to use it for something else.

Someone mentioned TV's. Bad choice. As like most electronic goods they only ever come down in price like for like.
But look to get the latest stuff and you will pay for it.
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The Artist
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PostPosted: 19:31 - 18 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
Bitcoin, the deflationary currency. (Technically inflationary at the moment but will get lower and lower until it becomes deflationary)

https://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/2sdxo0/over_the_last_4_hours_bitcoin_is_the_best/[/quote]

1. Random timescales are pointless. e.g.

https://i.imgur.com/ve7u0FH.png Tells you nothing really.

2. It is widely acknowledged that bitcoin is currently not a great store of value but a great medium of exchange and as that grows, the value will stabilise at some point.

tl;dr Give it time.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 19:49 - 18 Jan 2015    Post subject: Re: Rates of Inflation Reply with quote

iooi wrote:


Inflation or deflation. That 1K is still worth exactly the same, in your matteress....

Only its buyinng power has changed, should you decide to use it for something else.

Someone mentioned TV's. Bad choice. As like most electronic goods they only ever come down in price like for like.
But look to get the latest stuff and you will pay for it.



I know, I've mentioned purchasing power elsewhere a few times.

Television and electronics are a bad choice because they are a result of arbitrage. Lower wages in China/Korea being used to mask UK inflation.
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Sun Wukong
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PostPosted: 01:49 - 19 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Inflation is something that I find grossly unfair, and I'm amazed it is so readily accepted.

It doesn't surprise me that they push deflation as a negative as well.

Are bank interest rates ahead of inflation yet in England?
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mentalboy
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PostPosted: 04:30 - 19 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Inflation exists solely for the purpose of making money from money, without it the market would stagnate and hedge fund managers wouldn't have a job... aaaaw
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 07:48 - 19 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Making money from money? That all sounds very much like what nearly all of London is about TBH!

London's certainly nothing to do with supplying goods and services to the british public that they want& need and making a small profit whilst doing so!
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 16:20 - 19 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deflation is bad for employers as profits are slashed. What is bad for employers is bad for employees.

A lot of people don't seem to get this. They think that workers are all exploited maligned people who deserve to be paid the same as CEO's and so on, but actually with a huge ratio of employees to CEO, the employee wage bill is often thousands of times greater than the boardroom remuneration. Therefore, if a company can't afford to keep going in its current state there are redundancies.

Redundancies mean unemployment which means a shrinking economy. It's bad.
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The Artist
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PostPosted: 18:27 - 19 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:
Deflation is bad for employers as profits are slashed. What is bad for employers is bad for employees.


Inflations is bad for employees as wages are slashed. What is bad for employees is bad for businesses.
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mentalboy
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PostPosted: 21:24 - 19 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Artist wrote:
MarJay wrote:
Deflation is bad for employers as profits are slashed. What is bad for employers is bad for employees.


Inflations is bad for employees as wages are slashed. What is bad for employees is bad for businesses.


So, basically speaking, we're all screwed Sad
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The Artist
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PostPosted: 21:40 - 19 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

mentalboy wrote:
So, basically speaking, we're all screwed Sad


I was merely pointing out that it was a moot point.
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