Superdream Staring Problems Continue

[richjp]

Am at a bit of loss wrt getting my CB125 Superdream started:

- looks like a healthy blue spark and plug gaps are right
- compression is there (least ways pushes my thumb off the plug hole)
- new petrol put into a drained tank and flowing nicely
- carburettors stripped, cleaned and new jets put in
- using a fully charged car battery
- starter motor sounds fine

Lots of puffs of smoke as the engine turns over when the starter motor is engaged, but doesn't catch/fire - in fact won't even fire when I put 'easy start' into the air intakes.

Annoying thing was that it was working a couple of years ago after I got the bike as a wreck and rebuilt the engine. Once the engine was working, I completely stripped the bike to do up all the other bits, but now the engine is back on, zilch.

If it doesn't fire on 'easy start', then some problem with the ignition even though the spark looks OK?

cheers

[Fisty]

I thought that the 'Rebel' was the CM, but obviously one of the MANY Honda 'revisions/Variants' in engine ingredients and model ident convention. CM was the original twin-shock 'factory-custom'/cruiser version of the CB125T, fore-runner of the Rebel.

Anyway, the 'little twin' engine has been around since 1977, and they all look very similar from the out-side, and the same basic crank-case castings have been used in many, many models.

UK CB125TD 'Super-Dreams' only ever had 12.5 BHP, the model was predominantly designed specifically for the UK market, when the 125 Learner Laws were introduced, presuming it would sell in the volumes that the 250 had.

Earlier 'T' model had a claimed 16 or 17bhp depending on whose numbers you take, and as those would be crank-shaft figures, and the modern Learner-Laws quite 15bhp 'Net', so rear wheel bhp, it probably just falls inside modern Learner power limits.

I have seen some sources note the UK Spec Super-Dream variant as the 'reduced effect' model, and claim more from the 'standard' version, but I cannot find anything to say what the differences are. I can only presume that it was essentially the same ‘tune’ as the earlier T motor with 12v generator instead of 6v and CDI ignition rather than points, and different manifolding and carbs to either to fit the Super-Dream chassis.

Between UK Super-Dream & T, as far as I have been able to find out, the valve sizes were the same and the cam timing is ‘probably’ the same, though I haven't found any data detailed enough to tell me if the 'T' cam had any more lift.

That MAY be one area in which the different levels of tune were established.

Anyway, the original 'Factory-Custom’ or Cruiser was the CM model and got the 360 crank engine where the CB 'sport' and CD Benley 'touring' got the 180 cranks, but I think (Snowies moved the book, so I cant check! And I’ll probably never get to see it again!!) Both CM and CD got the 4-speeed box rather than the 5.

I don’t know whether the later Rebel CA cruiser, as you suggest it got the 5 speed box of the CB also got the 180 crank, or whether it kept the 360 arrangement of the earlier CM.

If it kept the 360 crank, then that would dismiss the possibility of using a standard CB camshaft. You’d have to get a custom cut from blank, or ground on a built up stocker, or the timing would be out on one or other pot.

On the carburettor front; The CM got a single and curious variable venture carb. I don’t know if ALL of them got it, or if it was carried over to the Rebel. CD ‘Benley’ got a single CV carb at some point, and some models got single slide carbs.

Snowie had a Chinese made AJS Raptor 125, which I think was pretty much a Rebel Clone, with licence made Honda Twin motor, that had 5 speed box and single slide carb.

There have been slight variations in head, rocker cover and barel castings over the years, and I’m pretty sure that the T model had ports that were slightly splayed outwards so that the carb mouths cleared the spine frame. If not, then the manifolds certainly splay a lot more than the Super-Dream’s. That has the carbs ‘tucked’ in quite close, to fit between splayed frame rails and brace bars to accommodate the mono-shock linkage.

The CD Benley, CM ‘custom’ and Rebel are all twin-shock bikes, with a single carb. I know for definite that the single carb and manifold from a benly will fit on a S-D engine, but it puts the carb mouth right up against the mono-shock support bracket with no room for an air filter.

Similarly, the splayed carbs from a ‘T’, fitted to a Super-Dream, put the carb-mouths up against the frame rails. (Clearance there is tight enough as standard…. If the carbs twisted slightly on the stub, the frame rail stops the choke lever opening fully… as I discovered this afternoon!) They also won’t line up with the standard air-boxes which also form the battery compartment.

Fitting twin-carbs to a single carb bike, then is likely to have any number of niggles in locating them within the frame.

There’s also a number of other installation issues in mix & match bits, such as the shape of the rocker box cover or the starter motor on the front of e-start variants, concerning clearance about the front down tube, which may be an issue, when it comes to messing with the ignition.

Back to the ‘T’ that had square rocker cover. Later Super-Dream had a scallop between the cylinders to clear the down tube. But it was also kick-start, and had 6v generator and points ignition. Super-Dream had 12v generator and CDI ignition, and lost the Kick-starter, meaning that cases both sides were different.

But main thing is that the E-start on the Super-Dream was incorporated by fitting an adaptor plate to the side of the crank-case, and incorporating a free-wheel sprocket for the chain drive to the starter-motor, inboard of the alternator rotor.

That would suggest that to use the T’s bob-weight advanced ignition, you’d have to fit the T’s 6v generator and back-plate, and probably loose the e-start mechanism, demanding swapping the primary drive side casing over and incorporating the T’s kick start, and potential problems surrounding that.

Probably more easily do-able would be to try and source non-uk spec CDi units for the Super-Dream, or alternatively mapped or programmable after market units.

For what you are considering, its not unreasonable, BUT the Honda 125 Twin in all its guises, apart from the most powerful T-Variant, and possibly the ‘full effect’ foreign market Super-Dream, were not ‘restricted’ to the power they have, they were designed down to it.

Finding the horse power those variants weren;t tuned to have is not like de-restricting a Yam DT or ‘prillia RS, and swapping a black box and maybe a carburettor, or just a jet or two, it’s a full on four-stroke tuning exercise.

Yes, might be one that might benefit from some parts from other models, but in some areas, but apart from figuring out which ones would be useful, and finding them, there’s still installation problems, as mentioned a lot of the de-tuning features were as often a by-product of re-packaging the engine in a different model, as actually looking for a way to make it make less power.

Its one of the reasons that the CB125 ‘Super-Dream’ didn’t sell in the numbers that Honda had anticipated based on the popularity of the 250. The post ’83 learner market was a lot different, and with the limited performance of a 125 buyers wanted as much performance as they could get, preferably more, and ARs and RDs, though no faster out the show-room than the Super-Dream, could much more easily be convinced to go that bit quicker, with a little simple tinkering. Most that tried tinkering with the Super-Dream motor ended up with a pile of parts from different engines that simply couldn’t be married together and made to fit in the hole it had to go in!

Picking up on andys350’s comments; Honda CB125, CB200 and the CB ‘Two-fifty’, CD 125, CD175, CD200 ‘Benley’, CM125 & CMX 250 & possible other capacity factory-custom/cruiser variants, of intermediate capacities, and the Rebel, all share a common engine topography based on the crank cases, BUT with an awful lot of internal and external differences around them.

The 125 & 200 capacities share the same crank stroke, but with different bores, I think that the 175 has the 125 bore and a longer stroke, the 233 ‘250’ variants the 175’s stroke and 200 bore. (Note: the CB ‘Two-Fifty’ Super-Dream has the ‘little-twin’ engine, where the older CB250N is a different engine family, having a sleeved down CB400 lump, and commonality with the CB350 & CB450 and I think the CB500Twin)

So yes, to fairly large degree, the engines are part of the same family, and share a degree of interchangeability, but there ARE an awful lot of permutations and incompatible combinations.

And to be honest, for the couple of bhp even a successful tuning project might release, it probably isn’t worth the hassle, as the previous owner concluded, far easier to simply buy a faster bike.

And on that notion, I have to suggest that Snowie got her Cruiser-Thing for much the same reasons as your Lady-Friend; it was cheap, learner-legal and it had a low seat heght.

But, she found it dog slow; 55ish tops, and despite the low seat, it really wasn’t all that manageable, the laid back cruiser geometry and lazy steering making it more cumbersome to manoeuvre, particularly slow speed stuff like test training, and thoroughly uninspiring everywhere else, particularly the twisty roads taken to avoid main roads and duel carriageways and being a rolling road block pushed into the gutter by artics!

And the riposte to the advantage of the low seat height is a long stretch to wide bars, which if you are of smaller proportions, makes the low seat attractive, means your little arms are at full stretch just reaching the controls, and as we took a long time to fathom with Snowie, can mean that the steering input needed to make a cruiser turn, actually demands leaning contrary to the way you want to make the bike go round the corner, making the manoeuvrability, balance and handling even worse.

We made it better for her by lowering the bars and fitting even lower narrower ones, then putting the controls an inch inboard on them to narrow them even further, and messing a bit with the gear and brake pedal positions, but it still wasn’t brilliant.

When it got stolen, we got her a 125 Super-Dream, and though its got a taller seat height, overall the bikes INFINITELY more manageable and manoeuvrable, as well as significantly faster. As would most ‘commuter’ 125’s be.

Bottom line, I looked at the Honda ‘Little Twin’ derived engine in the Cruiser Thing, with pretty much the same sort of notion you are having with the Rebel…. Ultimately I mucked about to make the bike work handling wise for her, but as far as making it any faster, I just told the girl to live with it, and if she wanted to go any faster, to pass her test and get a quicker bike! It just wasn’t worth the messing.

End of the day, a 125 is a tool to get your test, or a cheap way to get to work quicker & cheaper than the bus. 10bhp might not be hugely exiting, but it’ll do the job
____________________
Quietly and consistently taking the piss.
TL1000R | Hayabusa | ZXR400 | TL1000S | Bandit 400 V
Fatter and faster than Fret

[Ste]

T2 motor, as in the early twin-shock twin, is the most powerful production four-stroke 125 EVER... in good nick should chuck out about 16bhp, as much as the same era two-stroke twins, with more revs and more mid-range!

First off make sure you have a genuine T2 motor, not a later, common as muck, 12bhp Super-Dream engine, or worse, even more common 360 crank CD Benley or CM Rebel engine, that makes about 11bhp on single carb.

Good bits in your engine are the cam-shaft which was the wildest honda made, and about the best you cab fit a CB125 Twin; and the 26mm Carburettors.

Make sure that you have them... again, 'Reduced effect' Super-Dream bits fit, to fix up a knacker.

NOW, personally, I'd be inclined with a T2 to keep it stock. It is a classic and it does have that accolade of the most powerful production 125 four-stroke.

And its a pretty nippy little bike, and I'm not too sure I would want to go much quicker than the genuine 18mph it offers with that cantankerouse cable operated front brake! (It was bad enough on a CB100N single I had the displeasure of, many many years ago, even for the time when a lot of new lightweights still came with drums!)

Anyhow...16bhp... there aren't many Benley based motors that make much more power, and it is as much as the CB200 chucked out....

The CB Two-Fifty the bored and stroked 233cc 360 crank version of the Benley motor only knocked out 19bhp, while the most powerful variant was the CMX 250 Rebel, that was another 233cc 360 crank motor, but with twin CV carbs.... that made 21.

So.... it's a bit mutable how far you may take one of these little babies....

If you have the 26mm carbs and the genuine T2 full-power cam, you are off to a good start, and we know that the head and valves are good enough to flow enough for 20ish bhp... so there is scope to find more by boring.

Bug-bear though is that you cannot go over 142cc on the stock liners. You can get a kit to get this far from china for about £90, complete with pistons and rings... not really worth effing about with C70 slugs, when there's already CB125 pattern pistons that size.

Reports, however suggest that the extra 17cc... about 15% make very little noticeable difference to peak power, though.

But there just ins't enough metal in the sleeves in the barel to go much bigger... you could.... but you would be running on the finning ali.

Bigger liners? Barels from one of the bigger bore motors?

OK, well the biggest Benley based engines are 233cc and they get that from a 53x53 bore & stroke. The 200's are the same 53mm bore, but a slightly shorter stroke.

53mm bore on the 41mm CB125 crank-stroke gives 170cc... so you aren't going to get it all the way out to 200cc on stock 'big-bore-benley' barels.

CB200.... conveniently had the same 41mm stroke as the 125... and to get 198cc, used 55.5mm bore.

Bad news is that that is one over-bore BEYOND max over bore on a big-bore benley barel.... AND Big-Bore-Benley barels dont drop straight onto 125 crank cases.... the liners are too large for the cylinder apature.

OK... machine the block to get bigger barels in..... over-bore a big-bore barel......

You now have to find suitable pistons.... you have gone beyond the bore size for any of the standard Benley engines; not that you would want to use any of the big-bore benley slugs anyway, as they are flat-top low compression jobs, and the gudgeon pin diameter is too big to fit the con-rod, but too small to be sleeved in the piston.

So... boring out the 125 engine;

First problem: is the liner size the cases will take.
Second problem: how big you can bore 'big-bore-benley' liners
Third Problem: finding suitable pistons to match con-rods AND liner bore
Forth Problem: Making sure big pistons actually give you more power and dont rob it, having enough compression

Its a big mine-field. I have trodden it very carefully, and my advice is that unless you are pretty nifty at getting stuff machined to suit, and really know what you are about... which if you're asking here you probably ent..... dont bother trying.

142cc big-bore kit is available off the shelf. Dont make much odds, but probably the best you can do reasonably cheaply and easily.

Make sure it is a genuine T2 spec motor, and you do have the full power that spec offers.

Maybe as 'improvements' consider upgrading to 12v electrics using later Benley or Superdream generator & Superdream CDi Ignition.

Definitely consider what might be done to upgrade that cable disc brake.

Otherwise.... just make the thing as tidy and well fettled as you can and enjoy it for what it is.... a classic tiddler.

No matter how much you tune it, its never going to be very fast. Its a 125...

But in that company its one that you ought not ride on L-Plates or A1 licence becouse its already more powerful than legal restrictions or anything you can buy new in the show-room today!

[Nobby the Bastard]

Anyway, the very FIRST thing you need to know is that the Honda CB125 Super Dream is a 'Classic', a very useful one, too, and it has an awful lot going for it, that can make it a very discerning choice of bike. BUT, if you just want cheap wheels, or a tool to pass your test on, your probably best to look elsewhere. You need to have a bit of 'enthusiasm' to actually WANT a CB125 Super Dream, and if your going to live with it, you ought to have a good idea of what they are, what their history is, and what makes them worth owning.

Already written an article, Learner Legals & Honda Super-Dreams, to explain why this little 'under-dog' of a bike is a bit 'special' and worthy of attention. But in short, it was in 1982 Hondas premier 'sports' 125 for the new 125 Learner-Legal market. A four-stroke twin cylinder machine, intended to compete head to head on performance against rivals single cylinder two-strokes, when Honda were still ardently committed to the four-stroke engine and campaigning the oval-piston wonders against the two-strokes in 500GP racing.

The legal 12.5bhp 'restriction' helped, the Super-Dream but it still had to be 'de-tuned' from the earlier models 16bhp to meet it, the same as the all new Kawasaki AR125LC and Yamaha RD125LC, and boasted as many technically avant-garde features, so it DID have the performance to match its two-stroke rivals, at least when they were standard and genuinely learner-legal.

Nearly thirty years on, its conservative styling and four-stroke engine mean the bikes now perceived simply as a slightly more sophisticated 'commuter' like The Legendary Honda CG125 that's the bench mark for the class. Testimony to the soundness of the bikes design and engineering, though, it was in production for approximately ten years until 1992, without significant change.

There are few AR's or RD's around any more, most thrashed to death by a succession of kiddie-go-quickly owners and their attempts at servicing and tuning (see 125's - Live Hard), and the few that have survived tend to be either basket cases offered for restoration, or over-priced teenage revival trophies. Its testimony then that the little Super-Dream not only outlived its rivals in the show-room, but also on the streets, where so many are still in use, and as often as every-day working commuter bikes.

As a potential buyer, this does bode well. There should be plenty to choose from, to be able to find a better one. And as I have alluded to elsewhere, this is an 'under-dog' motorcycle, which means generally undervalued, hinting that there should be bargains to be found... or at least better bikes for more realistic prices, as the bike has past the 'test of time' and shown itself basically sound and reliable and well proven.

BUT! It IS still an 'old' bike, and the youngest of them out there will be at least nineteen or twenty years old, with the majority being built between 1982 and 1986, quarter of a century, pushing thirty years. AND while its conservative styling and four-stroke engine have placed it in with the commuter bikes, its 12,000rpm red line certainly does NOT! This IS a 'sports-bike', and it was far more avant-garde when launched than Honda's current 'premier' CBR125, which in many ways is actually a lot more conservative.

Worth noting that many of the features of the modern CBR125 are actually no more 'advanced' than the 125 Super-Dream, particularly the important bits, front and rear suspension, brakes, and tyre sizes.

And while it may boast a water-cooled and fuel injected engine, that is significantly to meet modern emission requirements, not for reliability or performance, and it's rated power out-put is within a gnats, the same as the 'ancient' Super-Dream twin.

Meanwhile, the fashionable beam-style frame and sporty faired styling, offer little functional value to the motorcycle. That frame is designed for least manufacturing cost, not ultimate structural stiffness!

While the aerodynamics of the bodywork offer little practical stream-lining to help the bike go faster! And the small weather protection they might offer has to be balanced by the vulnerability, if the bike gets knocked off the side stand!

Compared to the 'Bench-Mark' Honda CG125, the little Super-Dream is in a completely different league. The CG might have gained electric start and disc-brake in its long and illustrious production history, but it was always a 10bhp 'budget' commuter, built down to a price, most in Brazil. Which is another plus point in the Little Super-Dreams favour, as a premier model, it was always built in Japan. It even says so on the generator cover. Which is a boast I'm not sure even the CBR can make, and even if it can, an awful lot of the 'bits' that have gone into building it will have come from Taiwan or China!

So, the Honda CB125 'Super-Dream' is a well proven, enduring little 'sports-bike' that has stood the test of time against its contemporary rivals, and STILL bears favourable comparison against modern offerings. And it can be viewed as many things, depending on your perspective.

It may merely be perceived as a slightly more sophisticated commuter, an alternative to the CG125. Providing the creature comforts of an electric start and disc brake, only found on the later models, a little more performance, comfort and 'substance' for want of a better way to describe the better finish and feel, without simply saying 'heavy'! (It weighs 125Kg, exactly the same as a CBR125 or YBR125, and a mere 9Kg, more than the CG! That's roughly the difference between a full tank of petrol and being on reserve, yet some people still insist THAT is a big deal! Usually older ones that remember it being a little heavier than an RD or AR)

Or it can be viewed as as a traditionally styled and budget-priced 'sports' Learner bike, a cheap alternative to the CBR125, or as likely the Chinese or Korean copies. But it SHOULD be perceived as a 'classic', and a very useful and practical one, that can still earn its keep as an every day bike, against the teen-age revival bikes, like the RD-LC or AR125 and such.

Its worth mention that a lot of owners reports of the Honda CBR suggest that its no where near as exiting as its avant-garde styling suggest it should be, and its actually a rather uninspiring ride, a commuter in sports bike cloths. The 'old' Super-Dream could probably stand the opposite allegation. Its a proper sports-bike in commuter cloths!

Ranking the bike against alternatives; nearly every-one I have ever met that has owned or ridden one, has said positive things about it, and they have nearly always been happily surprised by it. The main thing that people will tell you about them is that they were a lot of fun, and surprisingly fast, and comment on the unexpected wail of a little four-stroke screaming its way up to the 12,000 RPM red-line, yet not blowing up or demanding frequent rebuilds like the two-strokes, and starting on the button first of second prod, no matter what, and just 'working'.

A few people have criticises the bikes performance and handling, and I have been dogged by people suffering niggles and hassles, asking advice over worn bores and dodgy electrics, but for the most part, these can be explained by the old age and state of neglect or disrepair of the bikes in question. Good ones are pretty damn good, but its still a learner-legal 125, and an old one likely to have suffered a lot of abuse and neglect in the hands of a succession of newbie riders, and there are plenty of not so good ones out there! I know, all mine started out that way!
____________________
trevor saxe-coburg-gotha:"Remember this simple rule - scooters are for men who like to feel the breeze on their huge, flapping cunt lips."
Triumph Sprint ST 1050

[temeluchus]

Err... a few more cafine doeses later, I spot that there's not a 'NO' between got and spark on non firing pot! (Typed after just one large mug of coffee... sorry, I dont properly wake up until at least the fifth!)
Yes... renowned for running on on pot.
As Stink says, often RH cylinder of fuel issue.
Other one is if the choke mech isn't properly connected, though TD-J ought to have 'paired' twin CV carbs... whether it has or not is another matter. They have very fragile 'bonded' diagphram on the throttle slide, which will perish and is prone to splitting... and they are £90 EACH to replace, as you have to replace both the diagphram and throttle slide.. Another niggle point to check!
If earlier slide carbs fitted... check if they are CB125 Twin, twin carbs or if they are two CG carbs.... or pit bike carbs... could have anythng on there really1
Super Dream 125 carbs have notably flakey link between choke spindles, choke cable works choke butterfly on LH carb, RH one may do anything it likes! If its not connected, or loose in the link, or the link isn't transmitting full travel, or its out of kilter on adjustment!
Often floods RH carb....
Elsewise, be sure it IS actually a fault before diving in with spanners... often start up on LH pot, and second cuts in when its good and ready and theres enough heat in the cylinder head!
So get engine warmed up, and let it run, and make sure second pot doesn't come on stream in its own good time.
are you running twin exhausts or a Motad or Micron two into one?
____________________
Some shite cruiser. Now with guns and FREEDOM!

[Ste]

Honda - CB 125 RS
1983-1986
https://www.motorbikespecs.net/images/Honda/CB_125_RS_83-86/CB_125_RS_83-86_1.jpg
Brakes
Front: Disc
Rear: Drum
Dimensions
Length: 1,960 mm (77.2 in)
Width: 745 mm (29.3 in)
Height: 1,070 mm (42.1 in)
Wheelbase: 1,285 mm (50.6 in)
Dry Weight: 100 kg (220 lbs
Fuel Capacity: 11.0 litre
Electrics
Voltage 12v
Spark Plugs (Iridium) NGK DR8EIX
Engine
Type Air Cooled 4 Stroke SOHC Single
Bore x Stroke 56.5 x 49.5 mm (2.224 x 4.335 in)
Compression Ratio 9.2 : 1
Displacement 124 cm2 (7.53 cu in)
Lubrication System 0.8 litre
Transmission
Sprocket front 16
Sprocket rear 36
Chain Number of Links 108
Misc.
Motorcycle Style ROADSTER
Tyres
Front: 275-18 Tubed
Rear: 300-18 Tubed
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bike was a revamp of the earlier CB125S & CB125J of the mid '70's, using the faithful little Overhead cam single, which had been deemed rather 'fragile' tuned to the extent it was in the early drum braked 125S, to deliver 12bhp. The 'Street-Scrabler' variant of the 125S, the SL was slightly de-tuned to 11bhp and provided the basis for the later, 'bullet-proof' as long as they got thier oil changed XL125 Dirt-Bike, from which Honda took the engine to motorvate the CB125RS.

Its related to the CG125, in as far as that was essentially the original 125S, fitted with retro-tech push-rod engine, delivering 10bhp, for 'developing' markets.

But the 125RS was a 'little gem'. More powerful throughout the rev range, and lugging 15-25Kg less mass than a CG (depending on variant), was a very much more 'spritely' little device with slightly more composed suspension.

The 125 Super-Dream only had slightly more power, but was lugging around 25Kg more mass to get it. It was the 'faster' bike, though point to point there would not be much between them on anything but a fast sweeping A-Road. Super-Dream with more sophisticated mono-shock suspension, more powerful twin piston front brake, and that howling 12,ooo rpm motor would be a little more 'composed' doing it.... while a CG would need a brave or stupid rider to try and keep them in sight, his engine lacking the 'urgency' hauling out of corners, and wheezing when stretched to higher speeds, and getting VERY bouncy through corners..... Only time a CG was likely to go past either the 125RS or 'Duper-Dream was on the way into a corner..... with smoke coming off the inefectual front drum brake.....

A 125 Super-Dream, in decent state is good for a genuine, 70+mph. I have had one up to 70 two-up, and 75, solo, on GPS snail-trails.

The 125RS is probably only a couple of points off for top speed. Its certainly a 70mph motorcycle.

The CG125, is really only 'good' for 65, and favorable conditions that would see it much beyond that, would also benefit a125Rs or 'Dream.

The genuine article Honda CG125, is probably slightly quicker than any of the (chinese) copies it has spawned, and they PROBABLY are in the majority of modern 4-stroke bikes on offer today.......

Which really only leaves a handful of Japanese or European four-strokes for it to square up to.

Yamaha YBR125? Pretty good comparison. Yamaha's answer to the CG125, with its overhead cam SR engine..... 11bhp, claimed 70mph top speed, and 125Kg......

Its actually 'faster' at least on paper than the Honda CBF, which with a claimed 12bhp only manages a claimed 65mph.

The Water-Cooled, four valve CBR125, boasts more power, and a little more speed. On paper the full A1 complient compliment of 14.5bhp, and 72mph...... but carrying as much mass as the old CB125 Super-Dream.

The CBR on paper is within a smidgin of the Yamah YZF-R125, and that powers the Riaju, Derbi & Aprillia four strokes I believe.

There ISN'T a HUGE difference between any of them for performance, and that 70mph top speed, is all VERY condition dependent.... condition of the bike, AND road conditions!

That little 125RS.... its got the 'potential' to cut it with the modern kiddie-go-kwik bikes......

The 'old' Super-Dream, certainly has, and point to point, applying 30 odd years of experience to the job, have left some 'young-turks' on plastic-fantastics shrinking in my mirrors down the lanes.....

On the public road.... the differences in rider skill or stupidity, will almost always be FAR greater than the differences in bikes capability. A complete nutter on a 250 Super-Dream can go faster than Mr Cautiouse on a Hyabusa, for as long as he don't come off!

But between the four-stroke 125's, the capabilities are SO close you don't need to have THAT big a disparity in rider ability or prudence!

That little 125RS? specs are enough to put it at the table for sure. It may not have the bigger power number, but it does have a relatively big advantage in that VERY low weight.

But missing the point, this bike was ALWAYS about cheap thrills.....

Super-Dream was built to match the two-stroke sports bikes on performance and beat them on sophistication.

CG125 was built to match the two-stroke commuters for low cost, total utilitarian transport.

CB125RS was built to deliver a compromise between the two.

Nearly thirty years on? It's a pretty good place to start a project. That twin-shock rear suspension is simple and durable and easy to overhaul. The single piston brake, likewise useful. Forks conventional. Motor, rugged, and easy to work on.

And CafeRacer is starting in the right place tackling the bits that matter most, making sure it will stop, steer and handle.

If the motor hasn't got gummed rings or need a rebore, or a flat cam, or hammered tappets.... little fettling ought to see it find its old sparkle well enough, and the ingredients are all there, for it to have the potential to do its job, and offer a LOT of fun for not a lot of dosh.

Certainly more fun thrashing an old bike you have built, to within an inch of its life, thinking "Whey-Hey! I made it do this!.... I hope it doesn't blow up! What the HECK.... I can rebuild it if it does!" and taking another handful of throttle stretching the cable a bit more tryng to find some extra go.....

Than..... sitting on a plastic fantastic, going into a corner a bit hot, and thinking "Oh PLEASE dont let me drop it! PLEASE dont let me drop it! I CANT AFFORD to DROP IT!"

And of course.... sods law says... you thrash that little single, waiting for it to go 'pop'... it will keep on going..... terrified of cracking the plastic on an R125? Well, Murphey ENT going to let THAT opportunity for mischief pass him by very long!

I really want to see this bike on the road.... another derelict finding redemption. Another owner discovering the joy of creating what they ride.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cafe? Indicators & stuff? much of a much, usually one bolt fitting, and where there's a will there's a way!

Front forks & headlamp stays? Universal ones can usually be packed out with strips of rubber cut from the old inner tunes you take out of them old tyres!

BUT here and now, multimeter, get the wiring all buzed out, clean all the contacts and connectors in the switches and everything; make sure your flasher is working, and that earths are earthing....

That is where the attension to detail will pay off, and reliability is most likely to be found. Wiring is a nif-naff niggling ball-ache that takes lots of time, and sees little progress, but well worth the effort.

If it has the Super-Dream tail lamp.... plastic casing with metal tube bulb holder.... DRILL through the casing, and put an M4 bolt through to make a direct earthing point, and solder it in place. Original earting arrangement is an ABORTION!

DONT be tempted to use generic crimp connectors for halfords ANYWHERE.... on old oxidised wire, its a recipe for faults and failures and the connector force is so often greater than the crimp force that they pull straight back off the wire anyway!

Go to Vehicle Wiring Products and order a couple of bags of 'Japanese standard' bullet connectors and sockets, and the insulation for them; get a good butane soldering iron and SOLDER them on where needed to get good electrical AND mechanical joints.

Get a roll of green wire and some ring terminals too, to make up 'garanteed' earth returns to the battery, from the common earthing point in the head-lamp, the chassis earth, and the 'one wire' components like the indicators... just saves answering SO many silly questions later!

[Fisty]

Also who is your bike staring at?

[nowhere.elysium]

[Ste]

Big front/ Small Back = higher ratio
Small font/Big Back - Higher ratio

To be honest, dropping one tooth on the front sprocket LOWERING the overall gear ratio, on a small bike, is as likely to have increased BOTH acceleration AND top speed.

Top speed is a function of power.

Power (made) = Cylinder Capacity x Cylinder Pressure x engine revs

Power (Transmitted) = Torque x Revs

So at the crank you have I umpety Newtons of Torque, times bilio thousand crank revs

At the back wheel you have umpety x overall gear ratio Newtons of torque times bilio / overall gear ratio thousand WHEEL revs.

So at 70mph, crank will be spinning 10,000rpm, rear wheel, about 3,300. Overall gear reduction between crank and wheel is about 3:1, so you will get 3x the torque at the wheel for 1/3 the revs.

Now,

Power (used) = Force (drag) x Speed.

Engine makes so much power, and you get that as 'force' at the rear wheel. As long as the supplied force is greater than the resistance, or drag force, bike accelerates.

Rate of acceleration is dependant on the DIFFERENCE in forces.

Force = Mass x Acceleratrion or Acceleration = Force / Mass.

BUT, Force causing acceleration is Rear Wheel Force - Drag Force.

And Drag increases with speed, so faster you go, more of your motive force gets used to over come drag, less is available for acceleration.

At some point the motive force delivered by the engine WONT leave any 'spare' for acceleration, and the bike will 'top out' at that speed where the drag at that speed = the max motive force the bike can deliver.

Make sense?

OK... now Lower the gearing, and you can get more force......BUT at a lower speed.....

So bike now accelerates and because of the extra advantage, always more force than drag..... BUT you run out of revs before you run out of acceleration..... bike could go faster, but you dont have another higher gear to change up into

OK, so we add another higher ratio... now you accelerate up in the lower gears, and each time you run out of revs, you change up, until you are in that new higher ratio....

Only trouble is, NOW, that ratio is SO high, when you shift up, while it will turn the wheel fast enough you wont run out of revs, its also reduced the force so much that not only is there NOT enough force to over come drag, let alone deliver any more acceleration.

Which is why we have to look at the power balence not the force balence:-

Power Made = Engine Capacity x Cylinder Pressure x Engine Revs
Power Used = Drag x Speed

You get max speed when you have gearing exactly set so that your max power exactly equals the road speed that used that power.

NOW, most bikes are 'over geared' in top, so that at higher road speeds, at part throttle, the engine revs can be backed off, and they can 'cruise' without making then engine scream so hard.

On bigger bikes they can over-gear quite significantly; you have a 140bhp ZZR1100 or something, at 10,K revs, it's probably making 30bhp as low as 3000rpm. Thats enough power to do 90mph, so COULD be geared in top to do, perhaps, 70 in top, at just 3000 revs, which would give a theoretical 140mph at 6K, and 280mph at 12K revs! 140bhp WONT push the thing to 280mph, it will struggle to go much over 170.... so if you want to achieve 'top speed' you would probably have to change down a gear, to get a lower reduction that isn't so masively 'over-tall' and puts peak power closer to real top speed.

TOP gear is in this case whats called an 'over-drive' gear......

Little 125, with only 10-11bhp to play with, is going to be geared much more closely to what the bike can REALLY Achieve in terms of top speed, becouse it doesn't have such an excess of low down power that there is anything to be gained by 'over-drive' gearing....

BUT they still 'tend' to over gear them, a little 'for economy'... and the CBF125 is a renowned 'ecconomy' motorcycle.

BIT of a cheat, TBH.... Fuel Consumption is ANOTHER expression of power....

Power = Rate of Energy Transfer

That's the base scientific defenition from which the other formula are derived.....

Whats Fuel Consumption?

Fuel = Energy, MPG the 'rate' its burned? So with a little licence, Fuel Consumption IS 'Power'.....

Back to the Sums:-

Power (used) = Speed x Drag
Power (transmitted) = Torque x Revs
Power (Made) = Engine Displacement x Cylinder Pressure x Engine revs
Power (Provided) = Rate of Burning Fuel

Make sense....

Slight asside; I have a v8 Range Rover.... I worked out that at 60mph, its supping a regular 330ml pop-can of fuel, every mile, or every minute! Scary! Even my kids cant down a can of coke THAT quick! anyway.....

Fuel Ecconomy comes NOT in any great measure from bike design or engine displacement or even 'efficiency' but from this simple principle.

Fuel Consumption is 'Power in' - and we use it to achieve 'speed'. Faster you GO, more fuel you gonna use!

My VF1000 is a pretty good example of how Mpg can 'vary' from use. Book says it should do 30mpg.... 'Touring', I have managed over 300 miles on 4 gallons of petrol.... so something in the order of 75mpg, twice what the book says it does..... conversely being a tad spirited, managed to get that down almost into single figures!

For comparison, CB125 Super-Dream; book says it does 90mpg, rarely see much more, though suspect that perhaps 100 is achieveable, if I tried... more usually around the 70 mark.

Or in other words, I have got BETTER ecconomy using a bike that is rated as 'dire' for ecconomy, 'gently' than I have an 'ecconomy' bike, more 'normally'.

Faster you go, more fuel you use!

THAT is by far the biggest variable in the ecconomy equation....

Hence the 'Cheat' in bikes like the CBF125..... over-gearing them.... reduces acceleration, so it takes you longer to attain a given speed... Ironically makes the bike 'slower' gearing it for a higher 'theoretcical' top speed, and without significantly doing anything to improve efficiency, makes them 'more ecconomical' SIMPLY by restricting your 'access' to the power you have available and making you spend it slower!

So, back to the story.... dropping front sproket one tooth, LOWERING the overall reduction, gives you more force at the back wheel for any given engine rpm, pr more precicely pushes the engine rpm up for any given Road-Speed hence giving double whamy of more force from lower gearing PLUS the extra force that ius normally only available at higher engine revs....

AND is likely to have brought the 'Theoretical' top speed, of the over-geared top gear down to something closer to the bikes actual real-world top speed for the power the engine makes.

Super-Dream, makes 13bhp, which is 'just' enough for a genuine 70mph. Stock Gearing however, gives something like 90mph at the engine's red-line.....

Engine had a fairly tractible power delivery and the power curve flats off at the top fairly helpfully, so theres' almost' the full quota of 13bhp 500-750rom either side of the 'peak;' at 10,500....

On stock gearing it WILL do 70mph, but its not happy getting there, and you have to thrash the nuts off it it 4th to get high enough up the power curve for the shift to 5th to let you carry on accelerating. shift too early, and you will creep slowly up to 60, and that will be about your lot, unless you get help from a hill!

Dropping 1 tooth off the front sprocket, then, brings that gap a bit closer, and you dont need to thrash it SO far in 4th before making shift to 5th, and once in 5th it will carry on pulling, and instead of topping out at 60-65ish, more readily pull under its own steam to a genuine 70.... wont go much further, and needle is nudging the red line, so its doing it on the power 'beyond' peak....

BUT it is still doing it, and WILL do it more often,

So, contrary to the 'theory' on that bike, lowering the gearing, increased BOTH acceleration AND top speed... and certainly the instances that top speed was available..... and its a more likely situation on most smaller bikes, and particularly 'ecconomy' machines...

Though be warned: on that 125 Super-Dream, lost about 5mpg for the change! There's ALWAYS a 'cost'!

that loss of economy, probably not so much from engine efficiency, making it turn higher revs for the same road speed or anything... but simply from actually letting you get at, and use more power more often, and power used = fuel needed!

[WD Forte]

WTF?

Have these people been abducted and brainwashed by Teffers?

Anyway

Jus cos you got a big fat spark don't mean you got it at the right time.
Its been known for folk to get them 180 degrees out during rebuild
____________________
bikers smell of wee

[lihp]

[Ste]

[WD Forte]

Ahhhhh! I see now
On a hunch I went tm's migraine inducing site and
see what you all did there.
You rascals you
____________________
bikers smell of wee

[Ste]

I don't know what you're talking about. Time on a tiddler is never wasted and so we're just trying to create the bestest CB125 information repository

https://s178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_001_Head-Stock/imag0832.jpg

First of all, the front wheel and mudguard need to be removed. If you are ONLY doing the forks, you don't have to take everything off the front end, but you will need to completely remove the fork legs, so when the wheel comes out, the brake calliper will have to come off, as will the speeds-drive. If the brake isn't to be touched, you don't have to take it off the hose, but it is good practice NOT to leave it swinging on the brake pipe, and support it on some wire or string or something from the bottom yoke!

https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_002_Fork-Seals/imag0836.jpg

Before removing the fork from the yokes, its best to undo the fork cap, because while its clamped in the yoke, the stanchion cant twist.

https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_002_Fork-Seals/imag0873.jpg

The clamps on the fork yoke can then be undone and the forks slid out and off the bike. You can remove and store the fork caps and springs if you like, but as Snowie models for us, this is the basic starting point!

https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_002_Fork-Seals/imag0874.jpg

The oil, (if there is any left in the fork) can be poured out into a suitable receptacle, and then you can start dismantling the fork. The two halves of the fork, the chrome stanchion and the lower leg or slider are normally only held together by one bolt known as the 'Damper-Bolt' as it holds the damper plunger in the stanchion to the slider. Its usually a cap-head allen bolt, cunningly hidden in a recess in the bottom of the fork slider, often underneath the axle clamp. A long allen-key or allen socket is normally needed to reach it.

As Snowie shows, you can often get enough 'reach' by turning a regular allen-key around and using the long end to get at the bolt, but it can be a bit tight to then turn, so a little added leverage might need to be applied. The bolt should NOT be too tight though, so be careful, you don't want to round out the bolt head! Worth poking it out a bit with something long and pointy to make sure you can get the allen-key all the way into the head, and then to 'tap' the allen key into the bolt head to make sure it is well engaged.

https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_002_Fork-Seals/imag0875.jpg

With the Damper bolt undone, the fork slider should slide straight off the stanchion.

https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_002_Fork-Seals/imag0884.jpg

Remove the damper bolt from the end of the slider, and you can screw it back into the bottom of the damper rod cap, to give you something to grip, and allow you to pull the damper rod out of the bottom of the stanchion, so you can remove the damper rod 'stop' or spacer.... the aluminium bit on the end!

https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_002_Fork-Seals/imag0885.jpg

Thats the one! Damper rod can then be pushed through and dropped out of the top of the stanchion.

https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_002_Fork-Seals/imag0886.jpg

If the damper rod doesn't drop out under its own weight, or with the encouragement of a light tap, it can, as Snowie shows, be pushed out with a length of rod. These bits can now all be cleaned and inspected, or set aside, while you strip the seals out of the fork slider.

https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_002_Fork-Seals/imag0876.jpg

On the top of the slider is the 'dust seal'. This should just lever out with a suitable lever, like the tyre iron shown here. I WONT say it can be done with an old screw-driver. Such abuses of the humble screw-driver are an insult to my engineering sensibilities, and the pointy end can easily scratch or damage the soft aluminium! It should NOT be done!

https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_002_Fork-Seals/imag0877.jpg

Beneath the upper dust seal, is the clip that secures the main fork-seal in place. Designs vary and many forks have proper circlips in this location that need proper circlip pliers to remove. Some have simple C-Clips that are a right pain and demand a lot of swearing and something pointy to dig out. The Honda CB125TD has a C-Clip, but one considerately endowed with two recesses to make it easier to get something in to pop it out. Proper circlip pliers would have been a good idea..... Here Snowie uses.... I cant bear it! a SCREWDRIVER! Its NOT good mechanics you know?!

https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_002_Fork-Seals/imag0878.jpg

Circlip removed, the main seal can be prised out. Here Snowie uses a tyre iron. NOT a SCREWDRIVER! The seals CAN be rather stiff to get out, and the trick if working with a lever is to try and get it to come out as square and level as possible, working around the seal prising it up just a little at a time. There are special seal removal tools available, but they are not always that reliable. some forks don't have enough recess behind the seal to be able to grip it and some seal removal tools just cant apply enough force to get the seals out. The humble and old fashioned lever (or I suppose if you HAVE to be a heathen, the 'old screwdriver'!) used with care, so you don't ding, scratch or damage the fork slider, and worked gently around to bring the seal out square, is about 99% reliable, to get most seals out.

https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_002_Fork-Seals/imag0882.jpg

See, even a weedy grirlie can manage it!

https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_002_Fork-Seals/imag0883.jpg

So, seal removed, you can see the slider bush beneath.

https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_002_Fork-Seals/imag0887.jpg

The entire fork leg disassembled, you simply repeat the process on the other leg, then you can clean and inspect all the bits before trying to put them back together.

https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_002_Fork-Seals/imag0928.jpg

If you want to paint or polish the sliders, this is where you take the opportunity. If painting though, be sure to mask off the inside so no paint gets onto the slider bush or seal seats, or where it could interfere with the operation of the damper mechanism.

https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_002_Fork-Seals/imag0872.jpg

After cleaning, the stanchion, will need to be polished. If it is 'slightly' rusted or pitted, this NEED NOT make the stanchion scrap.

The main function of the chrome on the fork stanchion is to give a smooth low friction surface for the slider bush and fork seal to run on. As long as the stanchion isn't significantly worn, and there are not major dents or scores or other surface irregularities, a small amount of 'pitting' can be tolerated.

It IS technically an MOT failure though, because by strict interpretation of the MOT rules, it is a suspension defect. However, the 'defect' is essentially that the rougher than normal surface will make the fork seals wear more rapidly than they would normally. Provided the surface is smooth enough that the fork seal WILL seal, and doesn't allow fluid out so that damping is impaired, it should not effect the operation of the fork. AND if a fork gaiter is fitted between the fork slider and the fork yoke, covering the swept area of the stanchion, an MOT inspector cannot 'see' the pitting, and is not allowed to remove the gaiter to inspect, and cannot therefore fail the fork on this criteria.

YES, it is a 'dodge'. But a legitimate one. And provided you know what you are about, and have prepared the stanchion as well as you can, removing as much rust as possible without damaging the remaining chrome, and haven't actually got huge areas of exposed metal or jagged edges of flaky chrome, there shouldn't be any major reason that the fork should give any major problem.

BUT, you DO need to remember its not a 100% fix and forget cure. The seals WILL wear out more rapidly than if they were running on a good chrome stanchion. Consequently IF you do use this 'gaiter-dodge', I advise that you periodically lift the gaiter to check the stanchion condition, to make sure it hasn't deteriorated, and to check that the seal hasn't started weeping.

I also advice that the seal be replaced at regular intervals on a 'precautionary' basis to avoid actual seal failure. How frequently precautionary replacements ought to be done, I cannot say. Depends on the bike, the way its ridden, where its ridden, and how far its ridden. But as a rough reckoner, once a year, for each MOT is probably a start! On high mile, hard worked bikes, it may be worth doing with every major service, if that's more frequently.

https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_002_Fork-Seals/imag0899.jpg

So, stripped, cleaned, polished, new seals, gaiters & oil procured, forks can be re-assembled

The CB125 has a spacer under the fork seal, above the slider bush, which needs to be fitted, the correct way up, before the fork seal.

https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_002_Fork-Seals/imag0900.jpg

Then the fork seal can be pressed into place, ensuring you have it the right way up, before its tapped into its rebate.

https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_002_Fork-Seals/imag0901.jpg

then driven home, using a suitably sized socket as a dirft, driven with soft hammer.

https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_002_Fork-Seals/imag0904.jpg

With the seal 'home' the retaining circlip can be re fitted. Then the damper mechanism reassembled into the bottom of the fork stancion.

https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_002_Fork-Seals/imag0907.jpg

Dropping the damper tube into the stanchion is the easy bit...

https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_002_Fork-Seals/imag0908.jpg

Getting it out the bottom can be a bit more tricky! Here I have a length of M8 'unithread' rod (available at most good hardware or DIY stores) which is the same thread as the damper retaining bolt, but a LOT longer...

https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_002_Fork-Seals/imag0906.jpg

so I can push the damper rod down, then from the other end, fish in and screw into the bottom of the damper rod, and draw it out the bottom, thusly....

https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_002_Fork-Seals/imag0911-1.jpg

Fitting the aluminium bottom stop, should stop it falling back through, while assembling to the slider.

https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_002_Fork-Seals/imag0912.jpg

Bottom Bolt can then be fitted, remembering copper sealing washer, and tightened to hold everything together, and the damping oil in.

https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_002_Fork-Seals/imag0913.jpg
https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_002_Fork-Seals/imag0914.jpg

Damping oil can then be measured out, and the fork leg filled with oil.

https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_002_Fork-Seals/imag0915.jpg
https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_002_Fork-Seals/imag0918.jpg

Fork Spring can then be inserted into the stanchion, and the end cap fitted.

https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_002_Fork-Seals/imag0919.jpg
https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_002_Fork-Seals/imag0920.jpg

Often its difficult to apply enough preload to the spring, and grip the stanchion to tighten the fork end cap on, and it may be easier to slide the stanchion back onto the fork joke and nip the pinch bolt to hold it steady, or to leave the spring, oil and cap until the fork has been fitted to the yokes.

https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_002_Fork-Seals/imag0923.jpg

All that remains is to slide gaiter or dust cap over the stanchion and onto the slider, and that's the leg fully rebuilt and ready to fit anyway.

https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/075_F_001_Head-Stock/imag0924.jpg

Both legs done, gaitered up, and back on the bike, yoke pinch bolts torque up, ready for the front wheel to be refitted.

[temeluchus]

The Benly engines, as a rule, have 360 degree cranks; there's two revs per combustion cycle, or 720 degrees, so that means that both pistons are at TDC or BDC at the same time, (there's 'zero' degrees of crank rotation between the crank-pins) but they are always two 'strokes' infront or behind each other.

The Benley Engines, as most small honda's and in fact most motorbikes, employ what's known as the 'lost-spark' ignition system. Basically rather than as was conventional on a car engine that used a 'distributor' to time the spark ad send it to the right cylinder's spark plug, once per combustion cycle; it times the spark off the crank-shaft and lets it fire the plug(s) every rev; if the ignition is timed, say 4Degrees Before Top Dead Centre, then, the plug fires at 4 degrees before the piston gets to the top of the compression stroke, to set the fire to push the piston back down on the power stroke. Piston comes back up on exhaust, and the 'stupid' ignition system doesn't know a sparks not needed and fires the plug again, 4 degrees before top dead.. of course there's thing i the pot but smoke for it to set fire too, so it doesn't do much, hence is 'lost'; but saves having to get all complicated timing the sparks off the cam or anything.

Conveniently, IF you have a 360 timed parallel twin, like a little Honda Benly.. means that you only have to have one trigger to fire the sparks; and you only need to have one coil; just needs to be connected to two spark-plugs; This will then put a fire in the hole of both pots at the same time, and one will be when its needed, a few degrees before top dead centre on the compression stroke, and set the fire for the power stroke; the other will be 'lost' in the smoke of the exhaust stroke... next rev, which spark sets the fire and which is 'lost' swaps, and all is well.

Trouble with 360 twins, though is they are a bit vibey; both pistons going up and down together, it's like having a big single, all the weight goes one direction or the other at the same time, and there's thing to 'balance' it out... which was why the 400 (and consequently the sleeved down 250) Super-Dream had a balancer shaft....

The little 125 Benley, though, two moped sized pistons, not really an issue; certainly not when rated at 10bhp or so, and reving to less than 10,000rpm.

That is, till they decided to make a 'twn-carb' sports version, and to try and get more power from the damn thing than they did the 200cc version.. make it rev to 14+ooo rpm.. THEN it starts to get a bit vibey, and like to shale itself to bits!

So the CB125 Engine is the rougue in the family; it has a 180 degree crank, which is to say that the crank pins are 180 about, so one piston is 'up' when the other is 'down'; one stroke ahead, three strokes behind.... power pulses aren't as 'even' but the weight of one piston going up is sort of balanced a bit by the one coming down, so at revs it Is a 'smoother' engine.

Does mean you need to revise the ignition system though; you can still use a 'lost-spark' ignition, but you can no longer use a comon timing trigger on the crank, and common 'syamesed' coil to fire both plugs at the same time. If you did, you'd get a 'good' spark a few degrees before TDC on the compression stroke of one cylinder, but you'd be sticking the 'lost' spark into a pot, either a few degrees before bottom dead center on the power stroke, which might not be too much of problem and still be 'lost' in smoke; OR, what would be rather uhelpful, you'd be setting fire to the charge JUST sucked o the bottom of the induction stroke, and i either case only runing properly on one cylinder.

Answer is pretty self evident; you have to use two totally separate coils, one for each cylinder, so they can fire independently at separate timings, AND you need some-way of triggerig them at the right time; and the simplest way of doing that is to just have two triggers 180 degrees about on the crank-shaft.

Which is all a lot of anticipated pre-amble to explain that IF you have an actual CB125 Engine not a CD or CM motor between 125 and 234cc.. should have twin-trigger, twin CDi ignition system.

If as you describe you DONT have a twin CDI ignition.... poses suggestion you DON'T actually have a CB engine....

Next up.... the 'stator' wires.... The CB125 has three yellow wires from the three charging windings on the stator going direct to the Regulator/Rectifier.

The Ignition is 'self exited', which means it takes its power direct off the generator and has its own windings on the stator to power up the CDi units; working on the magneto-principle, AC current is taken down a solid blue, and a solid white wire; the AC pulse lasts 180 degrees of crank rev, so is a CD voltage as far as the ignition is concerned; these two wires feed BOTH CDi units.

The CDi is 'triggered' by a pair of induction coils, when a lug on the rotor passes them. They are separate from the stator, and spaced 180 degrees about the rotor to fire the sparks independently for each pot. They have a common green/white earth wire, isolated from the bikes common earth circuit; there's then a blue with yellow stripe wire for one trigger, a white with yellow stripe wire for the other.

The answer to your conundrum IS to be found the books; both by Haynes, the first that for the CB125 Super-Dream, the other the one for Four-Stroke Chinese 125's; The Wirig Diagrams they contain and a little prodding and poking with a Multi-Meter.

You NEED t be sure what you have to start with; as you have discovered, Honda used a common crank-case bolt pattern, on the CG OHV family of engines, the CB/XL OHC single engines, as well as the Benley OHC Twin motors, carried over to the Chinese copies ad their variants on them; that allows almost any of them to be swapped between genuine Honda and Chinese clone, copy or variant frames, very easily... BUT the devil is in these little details and revisions and differences, that offer perms and combs that run to gazzilons!

You could have a 12v CDi ignition CB125 Super-Dream engine.... You could have a 6v poits igition CB125T engine; you could have a 6v points CM or CM engine; a 12v and CDi CD or CM engine; of EVEN a 'splay-port' CG sigle motor, that was stuffed to the Super-Dream frame for some rice-markets ad found its way here with Honda badges on it!

First check what you got; pull the plugs ad turn the motor over o the rotor-bolt, and use a bic-biro through the plug-hole to find t of its 'one-up' or 'both up' crank-timed on the pistons. (and to make sure its not a bludy splay-port singe!)

I would try cleaning the two wires you mentio; the blue one and the white one, with white spirit, to see if there's a faded yellow stripe on them both.....

And I would put a multimeter on 'continuity' between the end of the black wire with the red collar, and the earth point, and play with the gear-lever... I suspect that is the Neutral Warnig Lamp Switch....

THEN, I would probably fuck off the Jinlun CDI's and coils, and fit the FULL ignition system from the engine you are fitting to the frame, rather than eff-about trying to mix and match; JUST to climate variables.... its an almost completely 'stand-alone' system; as said, it's powered independent of the battery off the magneto; timed from the magneto; and the only 'wire' that goes anywhere to anything else on the bike, is (o a Super-Dream) a black-white wire, common to both CDi's that 'makes' a circuit to the chassis earth when the ignition switch is 'off', that 'earths' the AC feed from the power-windings the mag, to kill the sparks.

But it's your mongrel, bastardise as you see fit; answers are in the books.
____________________
Some shite cruiser. Now with guns and FREEDOM!

[Jewlio Iglesias]

[Ste]

You are a Learner-Rider. Aproach it with a completely open mind, as though you DONT know a thing.... and when you find out you do, use it to ask pertinant and sensible questions.

PRESUMPTION is the Mother of all Fuck Ups....

Yes, there is quite a lot of transferable experience from cars to bikes, but bikes are very much more demanding to ride than cars are to drive; veiw from the controls a lot different, AND we are HUGELY more vulnerable and at risk!

Trouble with teaching existing car drivers to ride a bike, is often that you tell them what to do, but in one ear, out the other, and they revert to 'Driving' as though they were in a car!

Silly one for you; toght car drivers on CBT, they have done everything they have been told, listened, carefully, asked sensible questions and I have had no qualms making the cut to take them out on the road after lunch for road training...

WHERE... fifteen yards from the gates of the college, at the first T-Junction.... they FALL OVER!

Why?

Well on the play-ground riding round cones, its all completely new, and unfamiliar, and they respond and do; just as if they were being given a ski-lesson, or tought to fly a hang-glider with absolutely no preconseptions, presumptions or previouse experience impinging on it....

But, ride off the play-ground, out the gate and faced with a white give way line, and a 'familiar' situation.... they do exactly what they have ALWAYS done in such a situation.....

Stop... sit still, like they would in a car, and forget to put thier bludy foot down to prop themselves up!

SERIOUSELY, it can be THAT bludy stoooopid!

Lots of other things car drivers do; they are far more 'mirror dependant' than we can be on bikes, and they tend NOT to use thier mirrors or do observations anywhere near as frequently as you need to on a bike.

This is another common previouse driver fault; they dont LOOK, they dont do the observations we need to on a bike, actually moving our heads and physically looking over our shoulders, and instead, automatically look for find and glance in the mirror, and no where near as often.

They also seem to ALWAYS forget to cancell thier indicators, becouse in cars auto-cancelling does it for them...

And very frustrating as an instructor riding along, following a student and the entire LESSON, you are constantly telling them the SAME THINGS over the radio.... "MOVE YOUR HEAD", "Cancel your Blinkers"... and they KNOW what they are doing 'wrong' and what they need to remember; its just that they are so USED to doing things the way they would in a car, instinct and engrained reactions take over.

'Doing DAS'.... this is a big problem. You get a couple of days on a bike, with a wally like me, nannying you around the roads, breathing false confidence into your ear constantly REMINDING you of these silly things you have forgotten, while you 'practice' for tests.

You are paying, a HUGE amount of money on a typical DAS course for NO MORE than the instructor being there, fullfilling the requirement to provide Radio Supervision to let you be on a 'big-bike; with L-Plates, and trying to drill these faults out of you by 'rote'.

Stuff thats actually 'useful', the real telling you what you need to do; one to one instruction.... you get very little of.

Training conventionally, on your own 125; you do CBT, get a bike, wobble about on it, try not to fall off, and learn pretty much by your own mistakes until you feel confident enough to take tests, is similarly frought; you learn only what DOESN'T work, and you dont get fed anything to help you do anything different, and possibly better, and its learning the hard and often painful way.

One of the best ways to learn is on your own 125, though; with weekly lessons.

Do CBT, go away, practice, come back. Get an hour or two of an instructor telling you what you are doing wrong, what you are doing right; giving you tips, and then sending you home, for a week to practice as MUCH as you like, on your own.

For the same number of paid for hours of training; FAR more of it is actually giving you USEFUL preparation to ride a bike; and you are NOT paying some-one to nanny you, and merely fullfil legal requirement to let you be on the road while you practice.

Intensive DAS courses, danger is, that so much information, provided in so short a space of time, you WONT get as 'much' useful know-how from it; and half of what you do get will be forgotten just as quick, and of what remains with so little real saddle time to give it meaning, it wont make much sense.

Consequently; a lot of the focus of training on an intensive DAS is on drillin out by 'rote' silly mistakes like observations & cancelling indicators, and providing 'Test-Tricks' to put on a performance for the examiner to get you a licence, RATHER than giving you good useful tools to be a decent, safe competant rider.

THEN leaves you out on your own for the very first time, WITHOUT that voice in your ear picking up on anything you might do wrong... on a pretty large and powerful machine that COULD get you into a lot of trouble very quickly.....

EITHER, thinking becouse you have done the course and passed the test, and 'know it all' until falling off proves otherwise... OR you are left suddenly bereft of support, with a jumble of confused ideas about what you were tought, and no guiding voice in your ear, thinking "Shit! WHAT DO I DO!"

THAT is the 'Danger' of DAS, or specifically intensive DAS courses.

DAS does NOT mean that you HAVE to do an intensive three, four or five day course.

ALL DAS is is the provisions in the test scheme for you to:-
1/ ride a 'big-bike' on L-s under radio supervision of qualified instructor.
2/ take the motorcycle tests on such a 'big-bike'
3/ and if passing tests be awarded full unrestricted A-Group licence without probationary restrictions of any sort.

Thats ALL it is; its NOT a course. I could ride my 750 to the test centre, with you on the pillion; slap L-Plates on the thing, and give you a letter saying that you had my permission to ride it; to show the examiner along with your cars insurance cert that says "And Any other Vehicle with owners Concent" so that you are insured to ride the thing, and you could Do your test on it and if you passed ride the fucker home!

You do NOT have to do a DAS course, you do NOT have to do an intensive DAS course.

IF you want a 'good' grounding for riding bikes; then I WOULD seriousely reccomend looking to get a 125 to use purely as a learning excersize.

Doing weekly lessons after CBT on your own 125, as said, you get BEST 'value' from the paid for instruction, and you can practice to your hearts content between times.

Riding unsupervised, you WONT get so ear-peace dependant, and will build confidence a LOT quicker.

AND you will, 'engraine' riding habbits to instinct the same as you have almost certainly done driving a car, and be FAR less likely to make or continue to make those silly car-driver reversions, like forgetting obs, or cancelling blinkers.

You'll also catch yourself out, doing 'life saver'; shoulder checks in teh car, and having any rear seat passengers wondering why you are turning around to look at them before changing lanes on the motorway..... but Hey, thats just bonus, you almost certainly take more from bike riding away that will make you a better car driver, IF only from the amount of observation you will do, and the more you will actually consider of what you see!

So, training on your own 125; costs are always uncertain, BUT training in this way; you will tend to get much better grounding and be much better prepared as a rider, and typically, six, eight, twelve weeks? all you ought to need to get to, and pass test standard and get a licence in your pocket for it.

You can then sell on the 125, and all in; costs of getting to that point; can be similar to doing an intensive DAS course. All circumstance dependant; but buying a bike and selling on, taking some depreciation and the running costs of that bike, including the insurance; hard to say whether overall it will be more or less expensive than doing a DAs straight off.

What is pretty sure is that for the same money you will get a much better preparation for post test riding; AND if you struggle, or dont pass tests straight off, it will almost certainly prove cheaper than DAS courses, where you pay a premium for a school booked test slot, both tests 'ahead booked' so the date and time of Mod 1 and Mod 2 fall in the course time; where if you fail Mod 1, you have a three day wait before you can re-apply for a new date, and will LOOSE the Mod 2 slot and the test fee.

Even just having to pay for repeat test fees; at around £125 a pair booked through the course, rather than individually for £15.50 for a Mod 1 Slot and £75 for a Mod 2, it can be expensive to fuck up. IF as many schools do, the tests are bundled in the course cost, and you have to pay for an entire new course, then it can get VERY fucking expensive....

So have a think, I'm not telling you what to do, I'm JUST explaining the options and telling you that you DO have options.

BTW... weekly training on a 125 would again NOT preclude you testing under DAS for an unrestricted licence.

As said, under DAS I could 2up you to test on my 750 and let you get on with it; no need for you to use a school.

Schools can be useful though, and if you train on a 125, If you want, nothing stopping you poay a few extra quid to do a DAS conversion lesson, for maybe an extra £20 to try out the big bike; then fork out maybe £70 for a 'Prep & Test' session; instructor supervising & coaching you on the trip to the test centre to use the school DAS bike for the test.

Doing the test on your OWN 125 though; has the advantage you may be more familiar and comfortable on it;l and it can save you pennies, and you dont need an instructor to nanny you to test centre.

Test on your own 125, you STILL get a full A-Group licence, and you DONT have to take any more tests after.

ONLY impediment with testing on a 125 is that doing so, you get a two year power probation. Means you can still ride any capacity bike you like, BUT it has to have an engine that makes no more than 33bhp or be restricted so it cant.

JUSt becouse you are over 21 DOES NOT mean you HAVE to do DAS, and the restricted licence is NOT a waste of time, or any less of a licence than what you get for doing DAS and DONT let any Riding school try and 'sell' you an expensive intensive DAS scheme on that kind of bull-shit!

33bhp is an awkward power limit; and does restrict the bikes you could jump straight onto that are naturally 33bhp complient.

But plenty of machines, are easily and cheaply restricted... and again DONT believe the bollox that you have to have a certificate of restriction and that they cost £200 and shit like that.

Ultimately; law merely says that it is up to YOU to ensure that the bike you ride is in accordance with your licence entitlement, and no more. How you do it is up to you.

What insurance companies may or may not ask for is entirely different matter; but again, there is no LEGAL obligation for you to have some kind of restriction certificate, and nothing stoppng you going to an insurance company that dont ask for one.

33bhp? Its not a lot, but its good enough to get a motorcycle up to over 100mph, and frequently do so faster than even pretty quick cars, thanks to the high power to weight ratio.

It IS enough to have a lot of fun with, and plenty for an early rider newby, it does NOT need to be a major impediment to enjoying your riding.

And after two years; restriction automatically drops off, and you can have any bike you like, just as if you had passed under DAS rules.

So, onto suitable bikes; for a newbie; either straight off DAS or stepping up from a 125, its NOT about size, its about 'Nature'.

As said, a 33bhp bike is good enough to break tripple figure speeds and get there plenty fast enough to scare most car drivers.

A 60bhp bike will normally break the two-mile a minute mark, and provide pretty lairy acceleration to it, compared to a car.

I have a CB750, its a 75bhp 'street-bike'. Its old, built in 1993, and its design is even older, having an engine taken from the 1984 CBx750 and DE-TUNED by 20bhp down to the 75bhp it has, and put in a chassis of even older 'twin-shock' technology, dating back to the 1960's & 70's. It is a LONG way from a cutting edge modern sports bike!

But, it will run very very eagerly to 125mph, and it will out accelerate all but the most spirited 'fast-cars' on its way there; and for me, and experienced rider, it still has more than enough capability to chuck around in the twisties and ride round numpties on the latest hot-snot sport-600's.

It is, by modern perceptions a 'boring' motorcyle, but I can tell you that even THAT is more than enough to be pretty bludy exiting!

And out the crate; they are quite a good 'newbie' bike. They are soft and forgiving, and give you a lot of feed-back about what you are doing, right OR wrong, that will help you develop your skills as a new rider, and in providing that feed-back and warning when you are doing stuff wrong, give you the 'clues' that will help you know WHEN to back off, and can keep you safe.

More focused, more competant bikes, will NOT give you the same sensations or feed-back, and will let you ride into danger not KNOWING how close to the edge you are.

Straight off DAS, a bike like the old CB750, reasonable enough starting point as any; and a bike you need NOT grow out of. I like mine. Its not THE most capable bike in the worlds, but in allround capability, to go have fun in the twisty lanes, tackle motorway blasts, load up with pillion or luggage and spend long hours in teh saddle; an awful lot of 'biking' for not a lot of money!

Mine cost me less than £500 in slightly shabby state; about a grand, to make it the way I like, not far off what I could have paid for something pretty tidy show room standard. And it costs me £80 a year to insure, against £120 a year for the CB125 or £150 for the DT125!

Bandit, is a similar bike; 150cc smaller and unfortunately in the popular and slightly more highly loaded 600 insurance group, and while not such a bad choice, personally I think that its slightly more highly tuned motor makes it a bit more tiring to ride and can urge a newbie to try too hard, wanting to get at the power and use the revs. But small gripe/

Plenty of other alternatives, including the JX600 Diversion; though TBH I would as easily reccomend a 'sensible DAS newbie the 900 version.

But I normally reccomend the commuter twins as the first big bike; whether on 33bhpo restricted licence, or straight off DAS, they are a very useful stepping stone.

Two cyclinders, they are, if needed more cheaply and easily restricted. Less refined twin pot motor tends to give more clues what its doing, and runs out of breath at the top end if you thrash it, where the fours will often rev eagerly to higher rmp, and encourage you to exploit the power they have up there.

Slighly less 'capable' than the 'fours' they offer a load more of this 'feed-back' and will generally offer a lot of learning for the small performance sacrifice, and give you a lot of opportunity to get into trouble... just not QUITE so blisteringly quick!

My VF1000, by modern standards, a bike that is not very powerful and is hugely over weight, would accelerate from 50 to 80 in less than two seconds. Damn thing could drop the quarter mile from a stand still, in under 11seconds with a terminal velocity of about 135, in the road tests. But in the intermediete roll ons, thiong could be lethal. Even with umpety years experience behind me, filtering onto motorway slips, or coming off roundabouts, that 'half second glance' over my shoulder to check gaps, and I coule be piking into the back of a truck doing 60mph, doing near twice that speed!

CB750, again, NOT a hugely powerful bike by modern standards, still runs similar risk, but, more likely to only be getting a tad close at about 90!

Commuter twin, A Suzuki GS500; Kawasaki ER5, or GPz500s; Honda CB500 or Suzuki SV650...

SV is a 75bhp bike, as stock; modern perception is its a bit 'wet' compared to 'real' sportsbikes, but lighter and more nimble than my 750,m still a bike that will see you touching silly speeds a tad TOO easily, at least in full power form. Others are all parallel twins. GPz500s is probably the most powerful and sporty of them, with about 60bhp, and a close second for performance to an SV. Others are all more comuter orientated, and offer a bit either side of 50bhp, as standard.

This is 'enough' to cut your teeth on, and fast enough to give you an idea of the things I'm talking about, without being SO far out of the realms of performance envelope of other traffic as it will give you a mind warp trying to get your head round it.

And a few months, a year, maybe even two, on a bike like that, would be very good 'grounding' to let you get on anything more 'adventurtouse' and not be to awed by it.

You would also be able to apreciate whetever you got after a lot more, from the comparison, as well as get more from it, from teh experience gained on the twin.

And if you decide NOT to get a 125 and do weekly training, and dive in with an intensive DAS course, (often schools just dont offer the courses to make anything else a viable option) I would THOROUGHLY reccomend a bike like this be the limit of your initial aspirations; and imedietly post DAS, even though you have a licence, use a commuter twin, as a first bike, to 'learn' on, and get what you have missed in early riding doing it on a 125, and perhaps back your early riding with some 'refresher' lessons, and after maybe an advanced course, before looking at the big-fours.

Point is; lots of options; dont dive in; dont presume on anything from driving a car let alone what as a car driver you percieve to be a 'fast' car, aproach it with an open, and pragmatic mind set, and try and make the options available work the BEST they can for you.

Oh, and as one last thought for you..... 'Fast' is all reletive. Fast cars, can be pretty thrilling and a lot of fun, and 170mph from an exec saloon can seem pretty excerssive and very very fast.

By comparison, the 150mph you see stated as the top speed of a modern sports 600, might not seem all that fast; while the mere 105mph listed as the maximum velocity of a humble commuter twin is likely to be scoffed at, as less than a diesel people mover....

Thing is; that people mover will take an age to get over 90. CB500 wont exactly romp away to its top speed, but it will still get there a damn site faster than you expect.

And unlike cars, where you dont OFTEN get the road room to use what performance they offer; too much traffic, roads too tight and twisty and narrow. Bike's width and ability to filter. Its manouverability, and its speed of response means that the performance is DOES have, is available, and CAN be exploited an AWFUL lot more often.

But the buck stops when it goes wrong; fast car has four fat tyres, abs, traction control, and will do a lot to save you from doing something too daft to begin with, and protect you pretty well curtecty of crunple zones and ipact protectiuon ssystems, when it doesn't.

Bikes DONT... it's YOU, out there, in the breeze in DIRECT contact with the enviroment...

If you really enjoy your fast car, think long about it, becouse an AWFUL lot of drivers, after even a merely moderately fast bike, suddenly realise that the car, REALLY isnt't all THAT exiting, and it can KILL thier enthusiasm and enjoyement of them!

Its swings and roundabouts whichever way; 125's are very 'useful' as a training tool, in that if you DO have the right approach and use them as a training tool, you can, REASONABLY safely exploit the provision for unsupervised L-Plating to get best value training & early miles experience.

I agree that larger bikes can be a bit 'easier' to ride. Extra stability, more flexible power, more mass, will damp clumsy gear changes and resist nervouse steering input..

But bigger is a generalisation, and it doesn't always work; something like an R6 is barely any heavier than some 125's and WONT be easier to ride, becouse it doesn't have the weight associated with bigger bikes, or the stability, especially at slow speed.

125, actually being HARDER to ride, or at least more demanding, is a useful training tool to instill some basics.

Where something like a GS500 is heavy and soft, and stable, and has a nice tractable spread of power, so that you dont need to work the gear-box so hard, and with that tractible power, if you habg the change too long, you aren't so likely to fall out the power, and mass will keep the bike rolling and smooth it all out a bit for you and flatter your riding.

EN125 is no where NEAR as forgiving. Hang your change from 1st to 2nd too long, and by the time you have clogged it into 2nd, what little momuntum you had traveling at 1/3 the speed, and with half the mass, means you've stopped moving before you have the clutch back out!

Likewise with steering input; with less inherent stability, yanking the bars too hard, to fast, bike twitches and wobbles and lets yu KNOW that you are making an arse of it.

So if you can get the 'basics' cracked on a tiddler and make good swift, smooth 'progress'... WHEN you step up onto a 500, its a 'doddle'...

But if you only EVER ride the 500? you may never actually get such an inate 'feel' for the balence, and stepping from a bike like the GS that will flatter a less than great newbie, onto something more 'flighty', you have a 'hole' in your skillset, that you have NEVER had to develop such an inate delicate 'touch'.... but instead of trying to aquire it on a bike that is a bit nervouse becouse its small, light and under-powered.... your trying to 'learn' all over, on something that has actually be 'tuned' to be that nervouse.

On that basis, time on a tiddler is not a waste of time, especially right at the start.

Two years? Length of a CBT cert. I wouldn't say you need ALL that time on one. Maybe not. Just a bit more than the first 15 minutes of CBT Playground during an intensive DAS course!

Three months? All it 'needs' take to get a licence the 125 way, with weekly lessons, for a pretty solid 'foundation' and preparatory skill-set. 'reasonable' to my mind.

Only thing limiting you to a 125, is not passing the bike tests to get a full licence, like wot you had to do before you were allowed to drive a car.

125's are good for two things; passing tests, and IF you are as miserly minded as can be, beating bus-fare travel prices; though even then; if you are really deturmined to travel cheap, you'll go further for your money on a full licence, on a slightly bigger bike, not paying the 'Learner-Loading' on either a 'learner-licence' or learner legal bike.

Give you a hint here; with a full licence my CB750, a 120mph, 75bhp bike is £80 a year to insure. Even with a full licence, CB125 costs £110.

CBT is NOT a qualification, its the 'first lesson' how to ride a bike, and that LEARNER LICENCE it validates is exactly that; so you can LEARN and practice for TESTS to get a full licence;

NOT so you can wobble around, without a clue, hoping not to kill yourself or any-one else, an unqualified hazard to all, for ever and a day, NOT getting up to grade and proving it, and getting the licence that's the 'key' to basically anything you want from biking.

125 'Cruisers'?

They DONT WORK.

They may look like a little harley; but they are a complete and utter waste of time and money!

As a training & test tool, they are worse then hopless. Ergamonics of the riding possition DONT give you best control over the bike, which has 'chopper' geometry and balence that make it about as 'nimble' as an elephant in a discount store, when it comes to doing the kind of test excersises demanded by the modern tests.

Seriousely; I have put a Honda CBR1100RR Super-Blackbird, hyoer-sports bike, or an ST1100 Pan-European Maga-Tourer full dressed with barn door fairing and paniers through the CBT test cones with less 'effort' than the couple of 125 cruisers I have tried it on!

They really are barge like and NOT a great place to start your riding career, filling it with confidence!

As for on the road; well.... about the only thing that they have in common with propper cruisers, is they are 'slow'.

BUT, unlike propper crsuiers, which to my mind start at the 'baby' Yamaha Virago with its 535cc engine..... they dont go slow becouse of big, softly tuned engines that have low down grunt to waft you along with least effort.

No, they have the same buzzy little things as other little bikes, that need the nuts reving off them and three gear changes to get them to 30mph..... only lugging around an abundance of chrome and fenders, they take even LONGER to do it, because they tend to be heavier.

Paddling the gear-box, to make them move, and working hard to get them to go where you want, is to my mind completely the OPPOSITE of what a 'real' cruiser ought to be; relaxed, laind back stress free riding.....

And these things, for all the chrome, just do not do that.

All they do, is ask you to pay an awful lot more money, to get something that LOOKS like a Harley, to NOT do either what a cruiser should do, OR a Learner-Legal.....

And as an 'ecconomy' bike to get to and from on? Yeah, by dint of being slow that CAN be pretty frugal; but paying a premium to get that ecconomy you could get paying LESS for a regulation learner commuter, that does the same job better, makes NO SENSE what so ever to me.

AND if you USE a 125 for what its best at..... GETTING A LICENCE....

Then you can have something like a Virago 535, JUST as cheaply, that you DONT have to hustle through test cones, that DOES 'Cruise' and remarkably is actually likely to cost you LESS to run that a 'toy' cruiser' bought becouse it 'looks' like something bigger.... but fitted with an L-Plate just makes you look like any othet twit on an L-Plate, only a slightly more tittish one with poor taste and even less of a clue about biking!

And you wanted us to be 'gentle'?

Sorry.... not happening!

But damn sight softer on you bursting your bubble here and now, than letting you learn the hard way!

Get a regulation Learner-Commuter; get a licence with it; which is what the Learner licence is there for; THEN when you know something and have proved you can ride; go get whatever takes your fancy, and meets your needs, and if Cruisers still apeal; Yamaha 535 Virago is the defacto 'My First Cruiser' and hard to beat.

Meanwhile; here and now; Yamaha YBR125, is the defacto 'LEarner-Commuter' and again, is a pretty hard allround package to best.

Or go get your toy-harley, and a cut off, to play 'Sons of Anarchy'... and look to every other biker like the Milky-Bar kid does to John Wayne, as long as it has the L-Plates!

FIRST: caution. Beware the CG125, victim of its own reputation.
Idea 'you cant go wrong with a CG, indestructible, them is', is grossly exaggerated. They are tough little bikes, but they wear out like any other, and will still bend when crashed hard enough, and 'low maintenance' doesn't mean NO maintenance.
Too many out there, that are ridden into the ground, and badly bodged, people expect far too much from, put far too little into, and STILL expect silly money for.
NEXT: The CG125 is the original; but gazzillions of cheap Chinky copies out there. CG's are 'worth money' old Chinky copies are NOT.
Is it a genuine CG? With so many CG Copies floating about, easy enough to dress one up as a genuine Honda; or 'ring' one as a genuine honda. OR simply fix up a real Honda with mostly Chinky copy parts.

In addition to the 'usual' checks to make sure its not a stolen or smashed bike, you need to make for any bike.

That's my starting point for a CG, and on the whole, given that the pool of decent bikes is deteriorating, and the prices are actually holding strongly, to the point that at the moment; there are a lot 'safer' places to go look for 'cheap' 125, I tend to reccomend avoiding the model.

BUT; that one; as said, Snowie asked what I thought, and if it might be worth a punt for her lad.

So, £475, its priced to sell. It's not daftly over priced like so many, BUT reading the detail; its not taxed or tested, or ride away ready, so it oughtn't really be worth more than £300 as a 'fixer-upper'. Ad suggests its an easy fix; just needing a bit of 'cosmetic' work to get it through an MOT, and hints, that you could get it OTR 'cheaply'... well, £30 for an MOT, £25 for a V5, £16 for tax, and you have £75 JUST to tick the boxes to make it roadable, even if you dont have to spend a penny on it... Start adding a few quid for new keys or lock sets, and ACTUALLY it's not going to be THAT cheap, even if it doesn't have anything majorly needing attention, like the brakes overhauling, the chain & sprox replacing, headrace bearings renewing or fork-seals doing, or 'niggly' electrical issues that need sorting, in consequence of theft attempt or damage.

What can you get a 'good' CG for? That age, one in tidy standard condition, they do fetch a premium, and they get snapped up at £750 ready to ride, and seen people asking near a grand for ones that are not that great.

But gives some 'idea' pay the £475 ask price, plus delivery, because you cant ride it home, chuck realistically around £200 at it to make it road-able, and you have spend the same as would buy you something 'ready to ride'.... So big risk for small bargain.

Looks like it MIGHT be a genuine CG; has the right engine covers, has a reg no for a real Honda, but lack of log book, doesn't inspire confidence; Pete's DVLA check suggests that the log-book is 'suspended' as a Cat write off.... could be CAT-C that only needs an MOT to 'clear', BUT you would have to do the work and get it through an MOT first, before you could get the V5.... risky.

Take one Cat-A'd CG from a salvage yard, one cheap Chinese Fake-away, and attach engine cases, VIN plate and Number-Plate, and your £200 heap of junk suddenly becomes a desirable £500 bike....

My aprasisal is it's too expensive, and there's too much 'risk'. to be worth a seriouse punt.

I would want to see it in the metal, I would want to crawl all over it looking for 'tells', to gain confidence, looking for the hidden faults.

I might NOT walk away; but if it checked out; risk vs reward, scrubbed up nice, its only a £750 bike, and at that asking price there just isn't the 'margin' to make it worthwhile.

IF, inspection gave me more confidence; top dollar, its only worth £300, as it's sat, a 'Spares or Repairs' project without paperwork, and I would be offering a derisory £200, for the thing. Personally I wouldn't want to go over £250 for it.

And THAT is after asking the initial dum question; do you WANT a project? Can you DO a project? Lots of people nievely believe that they can fix bikes up easily and cheaply; but look at the workshop & show and tell for the reality! Projects take time; space, effort; and always cause SOME hassle. You NEED to know you have the tools and facilities to take one on; AND as importantly support of people around you who aren't going to give you grief the whole time, moaning about that pile of junk on the patio and the oily finger prints on the light switches!

If it's close; if you are clued up; if you are prepared for what getting it to road will entail; you have the money to cover the immedietly guessable costs; plus that to cover any unforeseen hassles; dont expect it to happen in a week; and are prepared to accept the risk that its likely to end up costing you as much or more than a bike you could buy ready to ride..... it MAY be worth persuing, IF you can get bloke to accept a more realistic offer, that gives you more 'margin'...... BUT you will be bidding against a lot of far more nieve and optimistic buyers who are likely to give him what he's asking, kidding themselves that THEY can get that thing 'on the road' for just £50.....

Right; 125's are good for two things;

Cheap bus fare beating wheels for the economy conciouse, two whom style & performance take second place to hard cash considerations.

Training & Test tools to be used to obtain a full licence & open the door to ANY capacity of bike, of any style or level of performance.

Given that 125's tend to be expensive to insure due to so many being ridden and crashed by high risk, Learners or early riders, and nicked by teenage scroats; and few return such spectacular mpg as many hope, and running costs of the more sporty or posey can, all up be higher than on a 'big-bike'...

the 'Bus-fare Beating' ecconomy of a 125, is often only there for those REALLY ardent to find it and accept the compromise of very limited performance & 'utiliterian' style...

NOW: - Lets break down your wants and needs here a little and see what we can do.

And I'm going to start with this idea of 'a little green-laning' now and then.

First of all, what do you know about Green-Laning? As you dont have a CBT yet, I'm going to guess you have never done it,. least wise on a bike.

Do you know how many miles of 'unsurfaced public right of way, with vehicular access' we actually have in this country?

I'll give you a clue; its measured in HUNDREDS of miles nationally, compared to a tarmac network measured in tens of thousands of miles. It ENT a lot; though some areas are better endowed than others.

Next; do you know how to FIND and status check lanes you can ride?

And do you know what to expect, if you tried?

I can tell you here and now; its FAR from non stop cross country riding, like living a Charlie & Ewan episode......

Most lanes in this country are now so well graded in the more 'used' districts they are no more interesting to ride than any surfaced country road with a spew of gravel on the top.

Others, are so short as you would have more fun trying to set up a grass track round your back lawn.

And most are hardly more interesting than a farm track.

The persuit entails hours pouring over maps and checking web-sites to FIND tracks you can ride, and trying to patch together some sort of route joining together as many as you can to make a days riding.

That day will then consist of possibly eight hours in the saddle; six and a half of them will be riding tar-top between trails..... an hour will be spend pouring over the maps and scouring hedgrows looking for the actual lane start..... and about forty five minutes MIGHT actually be decent dirt-riding.

Does this sound SO much 'fun' as to be worth the compromises, and 'costs' you want to put on this bike you want, for that 'occassional' bit of 'Green-Laning'?

Bike for the gig is a Yamaha DT125; its common enough to be easy to live with, and proven it's capability over the years.

For that 'capability' you will pay approximately 50% more on insurance than a 'mundane' commuter. The model of bike gets loaded, for being a high risk.

Bikes with knobly tyres carry a higher theft risk; even if you insure one Third Party Only to avoid the insurers having to accept that risk, the 'base' premium is still loaded by the overall model risk.

The DT is loaded higher still, because its a two-stroke, and more often tuned, more sporty, and often crashed.

My 15bhp/75mph DT125, the 'classic' air-cooled 1970's model, is actually MORE to insure than my 75bhp/125mph Honda CB750.....

It ALSO uses more fuel...... it does 'about' 60mpg and requires two stoke oil to be added to that at about an extra 6p/l of petrol..... And that DROPS when off-roading.

And 'good' as my DT is; as an off-roader its pretty crap. I have a Montesa Cota comp-trials bike; THAT is a propper off-roader. For the road, I have the CB750 and a CB125 for pottering about. And again, the DT isn't a patch on either on tarmac.

Its a jack of two trades, master of neither; FUN, but it's compromised wherever you take it, and an expensive indulgence for me, an experienced rider, who CAN make use of it, and by dint of age and experience not get raped on insurance, or have to sustain the running costs using it as every day sole means of transport.

So; lets go back; needs and wants.

What do you NEED this bike to do? Is it a Bus-fare-dodger, or training wheels, or is it a week-end toy?

On CBT... first priority is to get a licence and get rid of that self imposed impediment to getting a lot more biking for your budget.

On that score, an on-off road bike, and notions of going green-laning, are not particularly great.

Learners fall off; and bent bikes dont get you through tests very well.

On dirt; learners fall off more. Shit, I've been riding dirt thirty more years than I care to remember I STILL fall off!

But straightening the bikes half the fun for me; and I dont have to use the bike for anything else. I have enough of them I can shove it under a cover and sort it out as and when I can be bothered or can find the money, and use one of the others or the car in the mean time.

If you need that bike to be 'available' and in a presentable enough condition to not get an examiner cringing for a test apointment; going out to bend it before hand, probably not the best idea.

While, IF its only a passing notion for something you MIGHT, only do 'occassionally', and dont really know much about to begin with....

Is choosing a bike that is more expensive than you can afford or are prepared to pay, to buy, insure and run, ANd which is less than ideal for the other tasks you may have of it; like getting about commuting, getting some training in on, and doing some tests REALLY worth the compromise....

If pennies are important FORGET off-roading, its a bad idea. Get a CG125, or a YBR 125, cheap, regulation learner commuter, the tool for THAT job, use it for whats intended; get tests & full licence with it...

THEN with THAT in your pocket; door is open to loads more possibilities.

bikes over 125 can be cheaper to insure, and in the 126-400cc range can often be lower; in that bracket the 'loading' from something with knobly tyres CAN be a lot easier to bear.

Meanwhile, haing got your licence; you are released from having to 'preserve' the bike for training & tests, and you ought by this point to know a bit more; and green-laning MAY be worth sacrificing some stuff for.

BUT.... first thing is tests, and bottom line is you dont get owt for nowt, and if you want the 'fun' of an off roader on top of the value of a mundane commuter-learner... you got to pay for it. So up the anti and get it, or lower your expectations and aspirations and do with out the add-on.

From where I'm standing it REALLY isn't worth the extra, but depends how much you THINK its worth really, or what compromises you are prepared to make elsewhere....

Concentrate on ONE thing at a time, and the FIRST thing is getting your licence.

How do I get a Licence?

The most accurate source of information on this topic is probably to be found from; "Riding motorcycles and mopeds" on the UK 'Directgov' website. But it is often difficult to follow! What is offered here, is then for guidance.

There are two KINDS of UK Licence, a 'Provisional' Licence or 'Learner-Licence' and a 'Full' Licence.

Any-One 16 or over may hold a Provisional licence. (Each entitlement 'category' though has its own age eligibility. You may only really ride a moped at 16 years old. At 17 you may have either motorbike or car. You don't need to pass any tests, just fill in the forms and send some pass-port photo's and payment to DVLA and they send it back.

This is issued to allow you to 'Practice' for tests. Once you have passed a DSA Driving qualification, be it for a moped, a motorcycle, a car or a tractor even, you send off your test-pass certificate and are awarded a Full UK Driving licence. BUT it is ONLY a 'full' licence for THAT category of vehicle you have passed tests. It REMAINS a 'Provisional' licence for all categories you have NOT qualified for. (Ie: If you hold a Full licence, for a car, you shouldn't need to apply for another licence to ride a motorcycle!)

The Provisional Licence, however doesn't really let you drive or ride very much. Provided so you may 'practice' for tests, it imposes a lot of restrictions on where and when you may drive or ride. And the main one is that until you have passed the DSA Test, you may ONLY ride or drive while under supervision of qualified instructor.

There is but ONE exception to this, and that is for motorcyclists, who, due to legacy laws from the days when supervising a learner rider by radio was not practical, are allowed to ride either a moped, or a 'Restricted; Learner-Legal' motorcycle up to 125cc and 14.5bhp, whilst displaying L-Plates; but you must not carry passengers (pillions) nor use motorways. AND provisional Entitlement has to be 'Validated' by completing an approved CBT course and obtaining the completion certificate.

What is CBT?

CBT is Compulsory Basic Training. TRAINING, it is not, repeat, NOT a 'Test'. Simply means you have had the FIRST LESSON!

It is NOT a riding qualification; it doesn't mean you have 'earned' your 'learner-licence', it doesn't mean you are a competent rider, and it does NOT teach you 'everything' you may need to know to be able to pass the actual licence tests!

At the end of it, IF you have reached a 'satisfactory' (very low!) standard of competence throughout the course, you are awarded your DL196, or CBT (Completion) Certificate, that validates the provisional entitlement of your licence, that lets you START riding on the roads, unsupervised, on a 'Learner-Legal' Motorcycle, for up to two years.

I go into a lot more about CBT & what you do, and how it is organised, in Tell me more about CBT?, so keeping it brief, here. The Course is designed so that an average student ought to be able to complete the course in a day, and be able to start riding, RELATIVELY safely. (Though depending on how much you have to learn, and how long it takes to master the exercises, SOME students may have to come back for 'further' training. They do NOT 'fail' CBT, they merely do not 'complete' the course to satisfactory standard)

IT'S YOUR FIRST LESSON

As such, before you invest ANY money in a bike, or gear, or 'anything', its a very good way to have a go, and see if you actually LIKE riding a bike. It ISN'T something for every-one, and some people struggle, and decide after that biking really isn't for them. Though, MOST I have to say, usually leave their CBT fired with enthusiasm and even more eager than when they started.

IT'S NOT A TEST

So, you DO NOT have to practice for it; you do NOT have to do ANYTHING much before hand; just turn up and do, and if you have any questions; ASK THEM! That is what the course is for. It is your introduction to biking.

Its a Day-Out, doing a new thing. When you book, you ought to be given some advice on what you'll need. Some schools will provide pretty much everything; bike, helmet, gloves, water-proofs. Some even offer lunch! However, 'School' rider-wear is often not that err... 'nice'... and most people prefer to buy and bring their own 'kit' before hand. Again, I offer advice on this in Tell me more about CBT?, but potted version is talk to the school, ASK what you should bring. Probably, "Crash-Helmet, Gloves, Lunch, Common sense, and wear 'sensible' out-door clothing, and check the weather forecast before you dress!

CBT is to help you get a bit clued up, and we TRY and make it fun. So DON'T worry about it. Its just a day out, playing with motorbikes. Your first lesson; You don't NEED to know anything about them before you begin, and it WONT make you an expert in a day, but it will give you a good start.

DO I Have to Do CBT?

YES!

OK, actually, there are a few exceptions. BUT WHAT THE HECK! If you have to ask, then YES YOU DO!

Generally ANY new rider will have to complete a CBT course to gain their DL196 form, to validate the entitlement of their provisional licence to ride on the road.

If you check the Directgov website; there are some confusing exceptions and exemptions; some drivers have exemptions under what are known as 'Granddad-Rights' because they gained provisional entitlement before CBT was 'invented' (circa 1990 ISTR). There is a raft of convolutions around moped licences for car licence holders that get quite confusing too.

BUT, ultimately, if you want to ride a powered-two-wheeler.. that's instructor speak for a moped, motorbike or scooter, by the way, on the roads... JUST do the ruddy course!

If you DON'T by dint of one of these wonderful 'exemptions' ACTUALLY need the Certificate? Well, what the heck. Damn site better to have the form and NOT need it, than have to argue about it with some half clued up beurocrat that expects to see it!

Meanwhile JUST for the sake of; the course IS a good start, and it WILL teach you something, and that 'something' could just be the one thing that saves your life, OR points on your licence, OR a painful and or expensive accident!

I used to teach CBT courses, I ought to 'Know it all' you would hope! Well, I sat in on my Girlfreind's CBT course last year, and it wasn't SUCH a vital detail, but I picked up some hints and tips on motorcycle maintenance, an easier way to do something, and some suggestions about looking after my crash-helmet and avoiding 'glare' on the visor. We can ALL learn something new!

Its a VERY worth-While course, for ANY-ONE starting out riding a motorbike, or coming back to riding one after some years break.

So JUST 'do-It'!

I don't see the point in getting a licence; why should I bother?

The Provisional Licence Validated by CBT is NOT a 'Licence-to-Ride' its a 'learner's permit', a chance to get some practice so you can take the tests and get the 'Proper' Licence.

Every OTHER motorised road-user HAS to pass their tests BEFORE they are allowed on the road, unsupervised. Fact that motorcycles are the exception is actually rather bizarre, given that motorcycles are the mort dangerous form of motorised transport, and unsupervised L-Platers the MOST likely to crash!

The FULL Motorcycle Licence is your PASSPORT to ALL biking has to offer & ONCE you have it, you have it for LIFE!

Well, with the qualification, that during the first two years, under the new drivers act, you don't get it revoked, or after that, suspended by being an arse! Other than that; once you have the entitlement its ON your licence as long as you hold it. JOB DONE. And....

it is a FULL Licence, NOT a 'Big-Bike' Licence!

No-One is going to take it off you, if you don't go out and buy a bike over 200cc within six months of getting it or anything! You can ride a 'Small' bike on a Full-Licence same as you can a big one!

And, OK, you may have a hundred and one reasons NOT to think it's IMPORTANT enough to do as LONG as you can get out and ride a 125 on L-Plates without it, WHY bother? Just keep repeating CBT every two years.

I have heard EVERY single excuse for 'perpetual L-Plating' from perpetual L-Platers they can think of, and there is NO real valid reason for it. End of the day, boils down to Laziness, and ignorance. Or possibly JUST laziness, not being bothered to go find out the facts!

BUT, Lets hear a few of them out?

I only want a scooter to get to work. I don't want a big-bike. So why waste money on paying for tests?
I'm 18, I cant afford to insure a car, so I only want a bike, until I can afford to buy a car?
I only ride for fun, got an RS125 'full-power', and that's expensive enough to keep on the road; If I did tests I'd want an R6 or something, and I cant afford that, not for the miles I do!
I'm over 21, I cant afford to 'Do-DAS'

Yeah! an ALL to common attitude, amongst scooter riders. You buy a scooter because its CHEAP, so why spend money you DON'T have to! Tests cost money, and if you can get to work without them, why buy'em? Same with riding as a stop-gap until affording a car, and the more bizarre notion of a 'cheap' week-end 'Toy' bike. Almost all of them MONEY is a big part of the argument.

Well, IF you can afford to ride a bike, ANY bike, you can bludy well afford to take the sodding tests, mate!

The tests cost a mere £121.50 (as 2012) over and above CBT to let you wobble about an UNQUALIFIED hazard on the roads. Elsewhere I go into the costs of getting on the road, and if you can get a Learner-Legal Motorcycle, taxed, tested and road-worthy, afford to buy a helmet, insurance, and stick petrol in the ruddy thing, you will be doing damn well, to do so for under £1000. More realistically you will be looking at having to spend, £1500 - £2500 'all in'. £121.50 in THAT greater scheme of stuff is PEANUTS. And if you cant budget THAT right at the start, DON'T BOTHER even trying!

If you don't pass the bike tests within the first two years provided by your first CBT certificate? Well, you will have to repeat the CBT to extend your licence entitlement to carry on riding. THAT can be as expensive as simply doing the tests!

But WHY would you NOT take the tests? Either you are too lazy OR you don't think you are good enough to pass.

If you don't think you are good-enough to pass, WHAT THE FRIGG are you doing on the road?!?!?!?

Tests are there to set a basic level of competence, if you haven't got that, then you shouldn't be there. You are a DANGER to yourself and others!

Many DO seem to think that the tests are 'Very-Hard', but really, what they are asking you to show them is that you can ride around a few cones without falling over, and can ride on the road, in real traffic for forty minutes, not break any laws, or hurt any-one! If you are riding to and from work or college every day, you are PROBABLY already doing 90% of what they expect!

I only want a scooter to get to work. I don't want a big-bike. So why waste money on paying for tests?

See: I Only want a 'little' bike, It's not THAT dangerous, is it? Its NOT like I'm jumping straight on a loonie-big-bike!. You are not 'protected' in anyway, pretending to be a learner, riding a lightweight. Its JUST as dangerous, AND your economic argument's DO NOT hold water.

Repeating CBT every two years, is as expensive as doing the tests.

The Idea that a 'Learner-Legal' HAS to be 'Cheap' is also a fallacy. Yes they CAN return very good mpg, BUT; the actual bike is a LOT more expensive than it needs be JUST because it's learner legal. With a FULL licence you have access to the whole panoply of motorcycles, and where you will struggle to find a 'good' Learner-Legal for under £1000, you can get any number of VERY good bigger bikes for the same money.

BUT, for the super-tight economy-commuter, there is a very big 'bargain basement' of machines in the 'forgotten' capacity class from 150cc to 400cc; machines that often have hardly any more performance than a Learner-Legal, but only Full-Licence holders, most of whom having qualification to have a much more interesting machine, simply DON'T WANT!

These bikes, are often half the price or LESS than a similar 'Learner-Legal' machine, AND frequently an AWFUL lot less to insure. They cost no more to run, and frequently return as good mpg, sometimes even better.

So, idea that staying on L-Plates is saving you money is a fallacy. IF you wanted super-cheap wheels, the FULL-LICENCE, Is the pass-port NOT just to bigger, more powerful and more exiting motorcycles, but to ones that can save you EVEN more money.

I'm 18, I cant afford to insure a car, so I only want a bike, until I can afford to buy a car?

So TAKE the ruddy tests and EARN your road-space like any-one else then! As the Scooter-Commuter; you aren't saving any money wobbling about on L-Plates. Use some of that 'saving' you are making to get the ruddy tests! Its just LAZINESS not bothering, and laziness on a bike is NOT a good way to survive.

I'm over 21, I cant afford to 'Do-DAS'

So? Why do you THINK that because you're re over 21 you HAVE do 'Do-DAS'? MORE why do you think that to 'Do-DAS' you HAVE to spend some ridiculous amount of money on an 'Intensive DAS' Course?

This is shear ignorance. You DO NOT have to do a DAS course just because you are over 21. Go read the sections: What is 'DAS'? & Intensive DAS Courses' What's the score?

I only ride for fun, got an RS125 'full-power', and that's expensive enough to keep on the road; If I did tests I'd want an R6 or something, and I cant afford that, not for miles I do!

If you have a 'Full-Power' sports 125, you DON'T have a licence to ride the frigging thing to start with!

The Provisional Licence allows you to ride a bike up to 125cc and 14.5bhp. A Full-Power 'Sports' 125 probably makes something like 25bhp (though undoubtedly you will be convinced it HAS to make 33), and riding one, without a Full-Licence is NO DIFFERENT to riding a 250, or 400, 600 or 1000, you equally DON'T have the entitlement to ride!

It is NOT some bit of criminal 'genius'; it's not what 'every-one' does. Its not 'all part of biking', its certainly not 'expected'.

IT IS ILLEGAL

Got insurance on it? Well, implying that it is learner legal when it isn't, is insurance fraud. You are breaking MORE laws riding a 'cheat' 125 as you would be riding an R6 or whatever you really want, also without Licence or Insurance.....

If you are happy to break these laws, for the sake of the few pennies you probably aren't saving, given that Sports 125's often cost MORE to run than 600's or 750's..... Well, MORE fools logic. You may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb, WHY bother, for the sake of maybe 10-15mph more illegal speed! These bikes may be impressive compared to a 65mph commuter 125, but compared to a 160mph 600? They are STILL not 'quick' or impressive machines to ANY-ONe who knows what they are looking at!

GET THE LICENCE and you can ride that 125 LEGALLY, you could ride the bike you REALLY WANT, LEGALLY, and it will probably be 'Cheaper'! If not, certainly be other bikes that will be!

THE EXCUSES KEEP COMING - But the answer always remains the same. If you want to ride a motorbike, then GET A LICENCE!

All of the excuses get blown away eventually, and it boils down to laziness and ignorance. Its not saving you anything, and the 'Learner-Restrictions' are ENTIRELY self imposed.

If you are OLD ENOUGH to ride a motorbike, if you can AFFORD to ride a motorbike; you are old enough and rich enough to take the tests and have ANY bike you want and can afford, NOT merely a Learner-Legal!

ALL for the sake of taking the tests and getting the PROPER licence.

The Motorcycle Test, Licence Categories & Age Restrictions

To gain a FULL moped or motorcycle licence, there are three tests.

Motorcycle Theory/Hazard Perception

Module 1 'Off-Road' practical test

Module 2 'On-Road' practical test.

These tests are conducted by the Driving Standards Agency, not the school you did CBT with. But the School may offer training to help you pass them.

As from January 19th 2013, there are three 'test schemes'; one for each category of motorcycle licence entitlement, to be applied to the two practical tests, Mod 1 & Mod 2. Plus one for moped entitlement. (Both Practical Tests Mods1 & Mod 2 must be taken on the same class of motorcycle.)

Category AM = Moped

You must be at least 16 years to ride a moped, and to take the full moped licence tests.

You may, upon completion of CBT ride a moped on provisional licence entitlement, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger.

Test requires a vehicle conforming to the legal specifications of a 'Moped' (see:- What is a Moped?), briefly a 50cc motorcycle, that says 'Moped' on the Registration document! It may be any style of powered two wheeler, like a scooter or a sports-bike, it may be twist & go automatic or have gears; but it must be less than 50cc and not be capable of more than about 35mph.

Both tests must be taken, as for the motorcycle test, and The tests are identical to the motorcycle tests, though allowances are made for the lower performance of the vehicle; eg during the Mod 1 exercises, that normally require a serve and e-stop manoeuvre above proscribed speeds that a moped would not be expected to achieve.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Category P licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a moped, which must still conform to moped power, speed and weight restrictions. But without L-Plates and you may carry pillion passengers. Note:- Mopeds may NOT use motorways, irrespective of whether the rider has a full licence of any category. (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)



Category A1 = 'Light Motorcycle'

You must be at least 17 years to ride an A1 category 'Light Motorcycle', and to take motorcycle tests under the A1 test scheme.

You may, upon completion of CBT, ride an A1 / Learner-Legal motorcycle on provisional licence entitlement, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger, or use motorways.

Test requires a vehicle conforming to the 'Learner-Legal' Motorcycle ( see:- What is a 'Learner-Legal' Motorcycle?), Briefly a machine up to 125cc, with no more than 11Kw/14.5bhp power, but with minimum performance requirements for test; the machine must be over 120cc capacity and capable of 62mph. Again, the machine may be of any style; a scooter, commuter-bike, sports-bike, cruiser etc, and again, may have a twist & go automatic transmission or manual gears.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Catagory A1 licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a motorcycle of the same performance specification as is 'Learner-Legal' essentially still an 11Kw/14.5bhp 125cc machine, but without L-Plates. You may also carry pillion passengers, and if you wish, use motorways. (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)

Category AM (moped) entitlement is automatically awarded with A1 entitlement, if not already held.

Catagory A2 = 'Middleweight Motorcycle' / Restricted Licence

You must be at least 19 years to ride an A2 category 'Middleweight Motorcycle', and to take motorcycle tests under the A2 test scheme.

Provisional-Licence entitlement remains that you may, upon completion of CBT, ride an A1 / Learner-Legal motorcycle, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger, or use motorways.

You may, NOT however ride ANY motorcycle other machine, unsupervised, ahead of passing the full motorcycle test for higher groups (A2 or A3/Full A)

However, you MAY ride a machine compliant with A2 restrictions, on provisional entitlement, IF you are under supervision of a DSA approved Motorcycle Instructor, or DSA Motorcycle Examiner, whilst training or taking tests. (There is NO exemption to this to ride an A2 machine unsupervised to a motorcycle test)

Test requires a vehicle. of at least 395cc with a power output between 25 and 35 kW (33bhp and 46.6 bhp). No upper engine size limit, but the power to weight ratio must not exceed 0.2kW/kg and it must not be derived from a motorcycle of more than double its power. Again, the machine may be of any style; a scooter, commuter-bike, sports-bike, cruiser etc, and again, may have a twist & go automatic transmission or manual gears.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Catagory A2 licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a motorcycle of ANY engine capacity, but no more than 35Kw (approx 47bhp.) And may not have a power to weight ratio higher than 0.2Kw per Kg. The machine may be restricted from a model that manufacturers standard specifications claims more than 35Kw, but the standard model may not male more than 2 times the power required for restriction. (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)

After Passing tests, you do not need to display L-Plates. You may also carry pillion passengers, and if you wish, use motorways.

Category AM (moped) entitlement, and Category A1 (125 Only Motorcycle) entitlement, is automatically awarded with A2 entitlement, if not already held.

Category A or A3 = Unrestricted Motorcycle / Direct Access Scheme (DAS)

You must be at least 24 years to ride an unrestricted A category Motorcycle and to take motorcycle tests under the A3 / DAS test scheme. OR you must have held an A2 category licence for a minimum of 2 years. (So, if you pass A2 tests when you are 19-21, you can test again for DAS before you are 24, as long as you have held A2 at least 2 years)

Provisional-Licence entitlement remains that you may, upon completion of CBT, ride an A1 / Learner-Legal motorcycle, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger, or use motorways.

You may, NOT however ride ANY motorcycle other machine, unsupervised, ahead of passing the full motorcycle test for that group.

However, you MAY ride any machine on provisional entitlement, IF you are under supervision of a DSA approved Motorcycle Instructor, or DSA Motorcycle Examiner, whilst training or taking tests. (There is NO exemption to this to ride an A2 machine unsupervised to a motorcycle test)

Test requires a vehicle over 595cc with a power output of at least 40kw or (53.6bhp). From the end of 2013 the power output will change to at least 50 kW. A minimum weight of 180 kg will also apply. Again, the machine may be of any style; a scooter, commuter-bike, sports-bike, cruiser etc, and again, may have a twist & go automatic transmission or manual gears.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Category A / A3 licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a motorcycle of ANY engine capacity or engine power output. This does not necessarily mean that you have to, or that it is a good idea, to jump on the biggest, fastest piece of machinery you can find! (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)

After Passing tests, you do not need to display L-Plates. You may also carry pillion passengers, and if you wish, use motorways.

Category AM (moped) entitlement, Category A1 (125 Only Motorcycle) entitlement, and Category A2 (33Kw or 47bhp 'restricted motorcycle) entitlement, is automatically awarded with full A / A3 entitlement, if not already held.

Automatic Transmission Restrictions

Pretty simple; you may test under any of the above test schemes, on a qualifying bike or scooter. Doesn't matter if it has a manual gear-box, or an automatic transmission, provided it meets other test requirements of engine displacement etc.

However IF you choose to use a machine that has an Automatic Transmission, for your tests, then again, you must use an auto for both Mod 1 and Mod 2 tests, AND if you pass both tests, your licence entitlement will be 'endorsed' with a restriction "Automatics Only", and you may NOT ride a geared machine.

Worth noting; The popular Honda C90 'Step-Through' commuter bike, has a three speed 'crunch' gear-box, and an automatic centrifugal clutch like a twist-and-go, and a number of contemporary motorcycles have engines derived from the old C90 motor, and retain the centrifugal clutch. Many now have a four speed gearbox, and have been bored out to a full A2 complient 125cc. The Honda Inova, is basically the successor to the C90 and has the 125cc 4-speed centrifugal clutch engine; but that engine & transmission is also used in many monkey-bikes, and pit-bikes, which are all A2 test compliant, if road-legal. However without a 'manual-clutch', a little digging with the DSA has revealed they are classed as 'Semi-Automatic' and hence testing on one will gain Auto-Only restriction, the same as testing on a twist & go. Bit of a pity that, as they DO have gears, but still.

When I gained my licence back in 1992, there was only one test scheme; you took the test on any 'learner-legal' motorcycle, up to 125cc that wasn't a moped, and you gained, straight away, a full unrestricted, ride what you like licence. They changed that, and until this year, you had to use a bike between 120 & 125cc, and do all three tests; and if you passed you got a restricted licence, that limited you to 33bhp machines for two years. But either way, it WAS possible to take tests on a 'Twist & Go' Automatic scooter, and gain a Full unrestricted ride what you like motorcycle licence with Auto-Only restriction... which was nie on useless; as there are almost NO automatic motorcycles over 125cc!

Actually, I can name, err... four. All built briefly in the 1970's and failing to gain market acceptance, any survivors proba

[temeluchus]

[Ste]

No one wants to spend a lot of money on a 125... consequently there is an awful lot of shit out there that can wear an L-Plate, becouse people wont pay for a decent bike, and wont spend time or money on one if they happen to have it, or even are clued up enough to know how; they are learner bikes, so many dont know much at all.

If you want a 125 you have to pay to get a decent one.

And if you want a 'good start' they are worth it.

Most important bike you will buy. Yeah, big bikes are where you want to be, and we can deliberate till the cows come home whether a CBR600 ir better than a YZF600, and which has the better suspension or brakes.... bottom line is that on a bike like that YOU the average punter that buys one for the road will NEVER apreciate the small differences between them, let alone be able to exploit any small advantage they might have, YET these things are 'important' and get a lot of debate and consideration...

the 125 you learn on, the ONE bike where having decent wheels under your arse, so that while you are learning, any wobbling going on is down to YOU and you alone, not some unknown problem with the bikes suspension or steering or suspension; and putting it right isn't pissing in the dark, wondering if its a loose bolt, a worn tyre, a clapped out damper, or you doing something daft....

Get a GOOD 125, and only thing that can make it wobble is YOU.

Makes learning that much easier; makes it an awful lot nicer, makes it a heck of a lot more FUN.

When you have a licence and you have some idea what you are doing... THEN you can actually get away with a slightly more 'tired' bike, that doesn't behave itself so well, becouse you KNOW any wobbling going on at that point is down to the bike, not you!

If you want a good start and you want a 125... well they are, from the start compromised little bikes; compromised by low displacement, low powered engines; compromised by low weight and price constraints; you really dont want more or specifically more unnecessary compromises in a machine that is already hugely compromised.

So, get as good as you can afford.

And YES, buy prices are expensive. SO you have to find more money when you buy.

But buy prices are expensive. SO you'll get more money BACK when you sell....

Best Value For Money 'Training Tool' around at the moment is the Yamaha YBR125.

New they are nudging three grand; which is about 2/3 the price of some more 'posey' 125's like the Yamaha YZF R125 race replica, or the Cruiser style Dragstar, and still a fair bit cheaper than the dirt-bike style XT125.

It is, also three times the price of a generic Chinesebranded 'Bike in a Box'.... but difference is it will still be worth something after you have attached a number-plate and it WILL do 65mph!

Brand new, is the 'best' you can get as far as reliability and known oragin, and working as good as it should, with peace of mind that you have a warranty.

BUTY you pay heavily in depreciation, and a year in, a £2800 YBR is probably worth barely £2K... two years in it will be around £1700, and at three years, around £1500.

First MOT is due at three years, and three or four year old models, priced between £1000 and £1500, are about the vest valkue you can get in the learner legal market.

They have lost all that horrible depciation, and are a half the price they were new. They also have that first MOT to give some confidence that they haven't been thrashed to death in MOT exemption period, and at ABOUT halfd their anticipated service life, probably less than half anticipated life miles will tend to have enough life in them to still be pretty tought and solid and dependable, and not be too wobbly.

Means that buy-sell risk is low. Risk is they wont need much if any thing by way of expensive maintenence or repairs; they will work well for a year or so, and can be sold, for little loss on buy price, cost of ownership, very small, tending to negligible.

So, a £1500 YBR bought, ridden and sold within a year for £1300 costs just £200.

A £900 Chinese Bike in a Box, sold a year on, is lucky to fetch £500, so would have cost £400 and not been as nice to ride or own in the mean time.

A twenty year old CG125 that costs £400, could demand £400's worth of work to get it out of the delapidation of maintenence overdraft old learner-legal commuters so frequently drop into.... might sell for £400, so only cost £400 but still just as expensive as a Bike in a Box, and twice as expensive as a YBR.... abd big risk it wont fix, or if its not fixed, you will get a years intermittent use out of it for your money and have a pile of scrap left at the end of it.

There are few bargains about in the Learner Legal market; but there can be, if you are prepared to pay for them 'up-front'...

That YBR, bought for £1300 selling for £1100 costs you £200, and still leaves you enough cash to go get a very useful 'big-bike', if thats what you want.

So where should you go now?

Well, experience is good, but bad experience isn't!

Straight out of CBT, you can go get a 125 and ride around for two years, learning by your mistakes... which can hurt.... and if twenty five years trials riding has tought me ONE thing, its teenagers bounce better! Older you get, more falling off seems to HURT!

Also not likely to teach you much about how to pass a test, though might boost your confidence a bit.

alternative is to skip 125's and do DAS, which for most means an intensive course of between three and five days, riding around with an instructor telling you what to do through an ear-piece,m giving you lots of false confidence, and taking a lot of money off you to do little more than fullfill legal requirement to supervise you riding a 'big-bike' before qualified... and I dont say that glibly, until recently I WAS an instructor.... Intensive DAS courses are a lot of money to satisfy impatience!

Once you have done your DAS course, where you will have been tought little about surviving the world of big bikes, but given a lot ot test-tricks to get you through tests, and what you might have learned about survival riding, you probably wont remember, fast in, fast out, in the cramming going on, and with little real experience to give any of it meaning or relevence......

You will come out with a full licence able to jump straight onto any bike you like, and ride it unsupervised....

And a few moments after you do so.... you will be wondering, "What do I DO!..... Theres no voice in my ear to tell me what to DO!... what did the bloike say about box junctions! I cant remember!"

This is not good, and you will be like a CBT fresh newbie on a 125, left to learn by your own mistakes...... only instead of it being a 10 or 14bhp 125, with a 60-70mph top speed..... it COULD be a 1000cc hyper bike that can out accelerate an F1 car, and reach 180mph before you can actually THINK! "Oh Shit!"

NOT! that 125's are, by dint of restricted performance MUCH better.

Often dismissed as 'Toy' or 'Kiddie Bikes', they are still credible motorcyles. You may have noted from the sig-line below I have a little fleet of them; and they are ALL fast enough to exceed national speed limit. and they are ALL quick enough to out accelerate MOST traffic. They will even stay with moderately fast cars, driven with spirit point to point, if I try hard enough.

Even a 125 has enough performance to get you into a LOT of trouble....

BUT, they do have merit. They will get you into trouble slower, and they will TEND to give you more warning, and they will TEND to demand more effort from you to be so foolish!

Bike bikes you CAN take liberties with; they have more weight, which can make them more daunting, but that mass also gives them momentum, which means it damps clumsiness and flatters poor riding, a lightweight will show up much more clearly. More power and more flexible engines will also demand less work from the rider, so again, let you get away with more, and be more lazy.

So 125s DO have merit as a training tool, they will treated with respect help you develop balence and control more acutely.

BUT, getting on and getting out, learning by mistakes is not great.

Intensive DAS courses get you a licence, but thats pretty much al they do, and can leave you on something very scary to learn by errors.

If you go 125, and its my reccomended route;' book weekly lessons on your own bike, to back up CBT, and Learn by other peoples mistakes and accumulated wisdom!

It hurts less! and doesn't take many skuffed exhausts or broken brake levers before its cost less too!

A two hour lesson; gives you enough time to learn something, without it being a blurr of information.

You then have all the time you want to go practice what you have learned, on your own time; get it sussed, and go back. AND with some road riding between lessons, more experience to give what you are tought meaning and relevence that also helps it 'stick'.

Better still though; that experience can direct questions to ask your instructor, to milk thier knowledge for all its worth, and get stuff you would NEVER get on an Intensive DAS, simpoly becouse no one would think to tell you, and you dont know enough to ask!

For a complete beginner, seven or eight two hour, weekly lessons ought to be all you need to get to test standard AND have some good arsenol of learning to survive behind it.

You now have choice becouse just becouse you TRAIN on a 125 doesn't mean you have to TEST on a 125, and you could test under DAS rules, to get ful lunrestricted A group licence.

No worries if you want, you can save pennies (at the moment; new laws come into force in a year) and test on your own 125, which will give you a full A group licence but with 2-year probationary 33bhp power limit.

This is 'enough' to be useful and if you didn'ty envissage stepping up to hyper bike at the earliest, gives plenty of options, and most 500 commuter twins, good for over 100mph and no small risk to licence, if restricted (standard they are around 45bhp and good for possibly 120mph)

This is the good way around; BUT if you are ardent on a DAS course, forwarned about the lost voices syndrome; and the DAS pass death rate amongst older riders on bigger bikes, and want to substitute for post test training, thats another way around it.

From where you are; cant make your choices for you; or make them any easier, just give you the right ideas... just when training some-one I can teach them to ride, I can teach them survival techniques, how they apply them after, really up to them..

I merely point out that they set the bench-mark standard to judge the alternatives, and as an all-round compromise, they ARE a very hard package to better.

My personal opinion of them as a 'motorcycle', is that they are possibly one of THE most boring, uninspiring and generally soulless motorcycles ever created... geez even the old Honda CB100N had 'some' sort of charecter...... you cant even ridicule them for thier styling! They are just... JUST... well, about the only thing you can say about them is "Well, at least its not a scooter!" And even in that anathmic world of engineering perversity there are machines that stand out, and have some 'interest'!

BUT, the YBR is not the be-all and end all and a paragon of motorcycling, it's about as inspiring as a washing machine.

Actually I have got more exited by a washing machine... I even had one with more charecter... used to jump out and mug me every time I had to walk past it to go to the loo!

But; like a washing machine.... it does the job.

The appeal of the YBR is in those numbers, that make it the least-risk, generally most cost effective way into biking.

Practically; its a no frills bike; there are plenty of them around; its an easy ride machine; just as many of them about; Its a 'dependable' low maintenance machine; fair few of them in the arena too. But there aren't MANY that wrap all that in one cost effective solution. Honda CBF comes close. but not 'quite' so economically.

Representing such a very very well 'optimised' package, of such keen 'value', (even brand new, they are not as bad as some!) its hard to beat, and I plaud it, msainly becouse if you want to go for something different, it sets the base line to illustrate how and where the compromise is being shifted.

Often reccomended, and much loved by more mature Learners; Honda Veradaro. Nice bike. But expensive. Physically large; its nice and comfy, especially for larger riders, and looks like a 'big-bike'. Down sides, are its not so ecconomical; its a tad more powerful, but not much faster; Size can make it bulky, and harder to manouver, while taller seat and higher centre of gravity mean its not SO easy to swing through test cones. Practically, doesn't push the compromises too far, as a learner commuter; except in area of costs. But again, more expensive, you pay more, but get more back. But not AS ecconomical on running costs as a YBR, so cost of ownership likely to be higher; while Honda spares and lots of plastic; any repairs likely to be expensive.

Going Daft; Aprillia RS125. One of the most expensive LEarner Legals on the market. Actually on DSA approval list with warnings that demand examiner must see 'valid' proof of restriction before letting you sit test on one; becouse they are a highly strung 28bhp race bike with lights. Physically large, they look like a bigger bike, and unrestricted they go like one. Bludy expensive to run though; 70mpg is 'good' going, and you have to chuck 15p's worth of high grade two stroke oil in the oil reservoir for every £1.35liter of petrol! Race crouch riding possition isn't so comfortable; restricts visibility and makes observations, and making clear obviouse Examiner approved observations harder work. Great brakes for e-stop, but horendouse steering lock for cone work, and riding possition that doesn't give best control. We then get to the matter of running costs and pistons listed as service spares. They demand a lot of maintenence; new they are expensive; and looked after to the service schedule effoff expensive. "nd hand; thrashed by a few no-little kiddie-go-kwick owners, often struggling to keep up with the HP installments, and more interested in spending money to go faster, rather than not break down; they get even MORE expensive to run, ignoring that service schedule, becouse costs are too high for so many owners to bear. Probably one of the worst learner bikes you can get; pushing the compromises SO far to get style and an idea of 'performance'.

Yamaha XT125. Dirt bike. Four stroke single cylinder engine, its a YBR on stilts and knoblies. Compromised for off-road work, and on-road work its never going to be master of either. Not bad, and off-road riding can be fun. But bending bikes falling off on dirt (they DO bend; another thing 25 years trials riding has tought me!) dents budget, and doesn't bode well for a 'smart' bike to turn up to test on! Nible geometry makes them easier than many to hustle through cones; but that advantage hedged by higher CofG making it mnore precariouse; and knobly tyres and soft suspension making it less sure footed; most on manouveres like the e-stop. Pretty robust in low speed 'spill' though. Again, compormise is being skewed, and both performance and easy riding being compromised for style and off-road ability.

Honda Shaddow; Cruiser; a little Harley. Lots of style; and lots of money. New they are over four grand. Look big to people that dont know any better; and look 'cool' to misguided cruiser fans. But little 125cc engine they DONT 'cruise' engine that takes three gear changes to get to 30mph does not suggest a 'lazy' easy ride a cruiser ought to be. The added weight they carry makes them slow, and hard work to manouver; and the lazy chopperesque riding possition and steering geometry and long wheel base REALLY make them hard work to get through cones, do U turns and generall do whats needed for lessons and test.

Could carry on down the list; but you get the idea; moving away from the regulation 'learner-coimmuter' you are frequently loosing more than you gain, or paying through the nose for it, or both!

The old CG125 is worth mention; now a 'Cult' bike, the 'decent' £300 CG, is a long lost myth. With the reputation of being bullet-proof or nie on indestructable; too many have become victims of thier own reputation; bought as cheap learner-commuter wheels, with 'low maintenence' becoming 'no-maintenence' owners loath to spend money on a bike they dont intend to keep,m and only bought because it was cheap. Decent ones now fetch particularly 'daft' money for what they are, on the legacy of the reputation; and you can spend as much on a half tidy CG as a much newer and probably more useful YBR. Down in the bargain basement; they are flogging scrappers for the money that would get you road worthy (if not 'nice) wheels of other make or model.

Yamaha YZF R125; the latest four stroke Kiddie Go Kwik, must have teenage loonie bike; Few on the second hand market becouse they are so new; Still close to £5K show-room price. All looks not much performance. Compromised like an Aprillia for rideability, without the boon of cheap power doubling de-restriction. Bit easier on consumeables though; but already seen bikes out there 'written off' for a low speed spill just cracking the fairlings! All for the price of a Suzuki SV650!

Honda's CBR125, by comparison makesa a lot more sense if you want that 'kind' of style. Its not the full monty, and CBR doesn't make much pretense at being more than a lamb in toys r us wolf-cub outfit. Not as compromised for rideability, but still 'some'. Easier on spares and service, but still more expensive than pure commuters; but does offer a couple of extra mph. And costs CAN be 'not so bad' rated against learner commuters; they are another variation on the compromise, and not skewing it so far, not prove too hard a one to bear, but its still a compromise.

So into the bargain basement; Mentioned CG's. But loads of different 'stuff' in there. And most of it, I would find hard to reccomend to a complete newbie, simply becouse so little is in useful, reliable, confidence inspiring condition. There are some machines worth thought though.

Chinese bike-in-a-box; £900 new, they are dirt cheap second hand; usually with good reason; they have fallen to bits! BUT, if you have some idea how to tighten bolts, adjust bearings and dont mind getting your hands a bit dirty; or even masocistically enjoy it (like me!), for £3-400 picking a bike thats managed to get through at least one MOT, and you can ride value out of it, as long as you dont expect the full performance of Jap branded bikes, can buck the odds and prove cheap long term commuter wheels.

If you JUST want a bike to get experience on, possibly do some training; you dont want to use it for tests; hiring a school bike, possibly a DAS bike; then the sub 120cc machines can be very useful.

The old 80's Two-Stroke 100's were great little bikes; Until early 90's you could take tests on them, but rule change means that for last twenty years if you want full A-Group you have to test on full size 125. But when they were testable; they offered almost the performance of full 125's and a lower insurance group, and frequently lower running costs. Still offer that; BUT like the CG, bought as budget learners, often didn't get the maintenence they deserved. Have thier fans now though, and again, if you know a rubber band from a power band and spannies from spandex and dont mind getting your hads dirty or enjoy it; they can be bought for reletive penies, and prove easy mechanics and a lot of fun.

Its in my sig-line; Honda CB125 'Super-Dream'; ought to mention it. Probably the most thoroughly considered; best engineered, most sophisticated; most capable, 'Do everything' Learner 125 ever made... it was concieved as a sports-bike to go head to head with its two stroke rivals of the era on performance; and it succeeded. Concervatively styled, it was intended to still be comfy and give you a command riding possition like a commuter, with good balence control and visability, BUT still be comfy and comfy enough for long er runs, even touring..... it was a great bike.... but looked boring and it was over priced... and today, big grin factor for masocists like me to get one working like it should... I have done two this year... but GEEZ! Been a heck of a lot cheaper and easier to have just bought YBR's! Most out there are pretty dire; I know I own most of them!

Also in Sig line, Yamaha DT125. Its a legend. Mines a late 70's air cooled model. Actually more powerful than later water cooled bikes in restricted form. Mine is a classic. But they are all 'road bikes' with knoblies, more at home on tarmac than dirt, and main atraction is the reletively reliable, and easily tuned two stroke engine that can offer around 20bhp, and not blow up as often as things like Aprillias or Cagivas. Hold value well, and work pretty good for a dirt bike. BUT, compromised being a dirt bike, and the later ones especially are no where near as mechanically freindly as other options, while most will have suffered the tuning attempts of teenage tits over the years, and can be a 'challenge' to scrub up and make good!

YBR's aren't the be all and end all of Learner-Bikes, and I dont make the kind of comments people are want to, like they do about CG's, that they are tough as boot, or you cant go wrong with one.

They aren't indestructable; and you can buy a lemmon as easy as any other bike. BUT.... on the whole, they are a damn well balenced compromise, and almost perfectly optimised as a learner-commuter, and possibly the least risk, best value route into motorcycling...

But they are a washing machine; a tool for the job, and not hugely inspiring for anything BUT doing the job, and doing it cheaply.

Great if you have the money to buy into that bargain; and you are happy to make those short term sacrifices having somethiung so utterly utiliterian, for long term gains of making it cheap and easy to get licence before stepping up to something more exiting.

Otherwise; there are plenty of other alternatives; to suit budget and aspirations, that can work, or be made to work just as well for any one.

But the YBR DOES set the standard for them to meet....

Battery acts as charge reservoir; capacitor acts as charge damper.
Imagine a capacitor as a spring in a brake line; transmits the force but takes out any shock in the line; where a reservoir would accumulate pressure and let it be used for longer.

I have 6v electric Yamaha DT, and am messing around with a 12v pit bike regulator, to convert to 12v. Generator is supposed to chuck out enough volts, and using both coils, the charge circuit and direct lighting circuit, ought to provide enough amps to keep small 12v battery charged to power 12v lights without the low rev 'drop of' direct lights suffer, while 12v offers more compatability for modern upgrades like LED's to lower power demand and make more juice available; possibly even a PIR headlamp for more light without less amps still.

This may be possible on the CB125 single's generator.

Alternatively; sticking with 6v, knowing 6v systems of old, even with a battery low rev lamp dimming is a pain. Many bikes of the era ran 'direct lights' so they didn't get any top up from the battery so were entirely dependent on genny revs for volts; battery only powered occassional equipment like horn and indicators.

Using a 6v regulator, possibly from an early 6v CB200 Benley, and routing direct light circuit and charge circuit through it to charge a battery to power all equipment, including lights, would be a good move, and make electrics more reliable.

Another alternative, still being toyed with for the DT, is if the genny and pit-bike regulator dont prove good enough to convcert to 12v... going 12v 'low amp' conversion anyway, using LED bulbs for indicators, dash tell-tales, side, tail & stop lamp, and a solid state low consumption indicator flasher, and a 35W PIR headlamp, and running the system 'Total Loss', having two batteries; one on the bike, one on charge in the house!

Lights dont HAVE to be self sufficient....

On a 78 model bike; you also don't HAVE to have indicators, and need only have the brake lamp work of one brake lever.

Two types of battery commonly out there

Standard batteries are wet acid filled. They have to be mounted terminals to the top or the acid sloshes out through vents.

'Sealed' batteries are often wet acid filled, but unvented. These tend not to have the charge/discharge rating of vented batteries, and are not usually reccomended for bikes or cars. Competition bikes and cars often use Sealed 'Gel' batteries that have an acidic gelly (yes basically you make a jelly like you would for a trifle of kids birthday party, but with sulphuric acid rather than water! And fill the battery with it!) More stable, can be mounted in any orientation to suit, and wont slosh acid. But expensive.

For your wants, I would sugest that a sealed, preferably gel-cell battery, of the same or greater amp-hour capacity, would be more suitable. You can find a place to site it to convenience, and tilt it to suit. Meanwhile, need not be bigger than original; external dimensions can be smaller on modern batteries.

If you are not putting heavy charge or discharge rates on the battery; if you have currently a direct lighting system, battery charged by excess genny amps at a trickle to power indies and horn, you probably could get away with a 6v 'sealed' burglar alarm battery; these are fairly cheap on e-bay, but check Maplins for specs and dimensions; they are designed to hawve very long service lifes, typically around ten years, but with very low charge and discharge rates, sat in a box on the side of a house providing independent suply for a lamp and claxon if the alarm goies off and the mains supply is cut. They are commonly de-rated for consumer products; thier life expectancy shortened, exceeding the specified charge and discharge rates, for use in things like car battery 'booster' packs, or kids ride on toys and stuff; Charge rates exponentailly reduce battery life, so double the charge/discharge current, battery life drops by a quarter, BUT, you can go quite a long way before you are down to the one or two years 'life' of a conventional bike battery.

If you want least-fuzz, solution, keeping the electrics 'as standard' but able to put battery where you like; I think this is what I would suggest as most suitable; Burglar Alarm battery in the 3-5Ah capacity range your CB-J battery is likely to be in, probably barely any difference in price to the OE spec wet & vented battery.

Depends how adventurouse you want to get; BUT do have a think about going 12v. With low wattage LED's sucking milli-amps instead of amps, you can make a small capacity 12v battery last a long time, even if you run it 'total loss'; and you have far more scope to start choosing from far more 'standard' 12v equipment, thats often better and or cheaper than whats available in now rarely used 6v components.

The UK CB125TD- Super-Dream is de-tuned to the old 13.5bhp learner limit.
Unless it runs readily off the end of the speedo, it probably isn't making that due to normal wear & tear and neglect.
Well fettled UK 'Reduced Effect' models will top a genuine 70, and put the speedo needle well past the last tick at 80.

The 142cc big-bore kit is the largest piston size you can get into the standard 125 barel's liner. The extra 17cc is fuck all.

They can be bored bigger; other variants of the engine have been stretched by the factory as far as 233cc for the CM250 or CB-Two-Fifty. But not without machining the crank-cases to fit bigger liner barels.

Head is good enough to flow the air needed to make almost double the power of the Reduced Effect UK Super-Dream; so you cant really gain anything by trying to hack the ports bigger with a dremel; and the valves are about as big as can possibly be crammed in the combustion chamber as it stands.

What limits the power on them is the cam-shaft. And unfortunately, there aren't very many options here by way of after-market hop-up profiles. Best we have is the factory;s 'Full-Power' cam which, on a well built engine, and with properly set up and sized carbs can, on the 125 bottom end achieve 17bhp. However these cams are rarer than rocking horse do-dah. The correct carbs to go with them even rarer.

Can bore the thing as far as you like, really, even the whole hog, bored and stroked to 233cc, you wont easily better the power JUST that camshaft offers.

The biggest 'family' engine using the CB125's 41mm stroke, was the over-square screamer CB200 motor, whose barrels are inconveniently incompatible with the 125 bottom end, and which only just made same power as full-power 125.

The most powerful of the 233 engines was the CMX Rebel, that I think was rated at about 21bhp, running paired CV carbs, on a 360 bottom end. CB-two-fifty chucked out about 19 depending on who you ask, on a single carb, but crank-cases opened up, to take bigger barrels, long stroke 360 crank, these engines dont offer solutions to tune a 125 super-dream as micing bits between 360 crank and 180 crank engines will result in mashed valves the cam opening valves on an up-stroke when crank ought to be doing a down stroke.

So.... 142cc? For a tenner, it ent going to hurt; but any more power you may get is going to be mostly from new piston & rings and rebuild finding more compression, not the extra cubes!

But for a tenner?

Had three barel sets in the last twelve months and done as many rebuilds. I didn't bother with the 142 kit. Keeping the stock bore size keeps things a known quantity, and saves a few penies.

Budget around £200 minimum, for gaskets, cam-chain & barel kit. You are advised to swap case seals too. And worthwhile new cam-chain tensioner blades. While you have it apart you can get seriouse and start spending seriouse money; roughlt £200 to get crank presed apart and re-assembled with new bearings and then re-balenced. Then theres the oil pump, clutch (worth douing, new plates & springs less than £20), gearbox bearings, etc. All mounts up, and if you skimp 'too' much you as like have to do it all again!

TBH with that list you are on a break-point.

Its not worth £300 as a dire runner, though you might get it, if you are lucky. If it has tax and test, its worth £250 to a nieve optimist (or a not so nieve, but ever hopeful dissolusionist optimist, like me!)

Top end rebuild it, you WILL be spending £120, and its a bastard if they go together nice and easy... because if it goes together easy, means cam-chain is stretched and it WILL snap!

Add £50 for decent second hand exhaust, you are up to £200 region.

Value bike at £250 and you are nudging over the £400 'value' and you still haven't sorted tyres, or the bottom end, or I suspect a host of other bits its likely to need sorting, like brakes and steering bearings and fork-seals.

These things are worth around £750 top book, for a 'good' example.

You can get Taxed, Tested Runners for around £500... though possibly not THAT much better than what you have.

SO... chucking the sort of meney this bikes likely to 'need' chucking at it to make it 'reliable'...

Will you get the value out of it, becouse you are going to HAVE to get the value out of it by using it, you are unlikely to get it selling...

Skimp to keep it serviceable and make it up to scratch, yes, £200-£250, you are just about on tipping point.

If you want to do it justice and get reliability, you are looking more like £500 order to get that bottom end tended to and new cam-chain in there.

Either way, head will need stripping; guides, & valves checking. Valve stem seals renewing; valves ground; & valve seats ground.

Now I wouldn't necesserily be put off by all this; but I know the bikes, and have heap of ready spares. And my threshold would be £250 buy price + £500 'work' = top book bike... I might just break even on, and get some proffit in the use and playing with it.

NOW: bikes come and go and with 55 weeks to no more testing for full A licence on a 125..... I would be looking on any £500 I might scrape together to fix bike very hard and pondering.

£121.50 is the test-fees. £65 per session to hire a school bike to do them.

Flogging the Super-Dream as a scrapper/project would cover that.

Leaving you in hand by repair costs, to go look for something elce, that, need not be a 125.

I bought my CB750 T&T'd for six months for only £450; if you dont look glamourouse there are a lot of big bikes out there for that kind of money; and, yes, I agree they may not be any better than your Super-Dream, but you are in the bargain basement; and its beggers and choosers.

And ecconomically, unless you are very daft and or unlucky, you WOULD get a useable 'big-bike' with a bit more life in it than your 125 currently has, that IS more likely to prove more reliable than doing cheap-skate top end rebuild.

Super-Dream, if you want to percevere with it; you will have to do the job thoroughly; and do full engine build, even if you dont go too farf rebuilding cranks and stuff. Doing the rest of the bike, you will be looking at having to chuck in the order of £500+ to do engine, zorsts, tyres, and a few mechanical bits, like greasing rear suspension (If that needs overhaul, has any siezed links SCRAP, it really isn't worth fixing!) renewing steering bearings, reconditioning forks and possibly servicing brakes.

They are a fantastic Learner-Legal, and a very good budget commuter, BUT big investment to make one 'good' and only ecconomicval IF you run life out of it as people will not pay what these bikes are worth for a 'good' one, when they can for same money have brand new Chinky or second hand YBR.

From your extended list of works.... THINK HARD


I'm going to stick that one at the top of the list; I know you have put it at the bottom; you want reliable transport more; but...

£121.50 + £130 to hire a decent bike to do it on. You'd have to spend the £121.50 at some point anyway, if not on tests, repeat CBT, or testing for 125 only licence.

IF there's not enough money knocking about to get this bike how you want it; SHORT TERM, £130 for a School bike, is a lot more do-able, and gets that one OFF the books; clear.....

If that happened; would you STILL want a 125 commuter? Would you still want THIS 125 commuter?

Lets start by floating that idea?

£250... full licence....

Cutting losses, thats what you would get for the Super-Dream'...

Leaves you the £500 fix-fund to go look for a 33bhp restrict 'big-bike', and they are out there at that kind of money, and IF you want to fix up a bike, and a bike you are going to keep, then something like my CB750, may be more worthy a 'project'....

PONDER and tell me your thoughts on that...

Meanwhile; without burrying too deep into this ere Super-Dream.

WHY don't you want to take tests on it? You said exhausts...
You said it was running rough, but with shagged exhausts, would run rough.

COULD we get this bike scrubbed up to something a bit 'more' serviceable, without a major renovation?

I have big pile of ready spares; some of them not so 'wonderful', but serviceable.

IF we could get a replacement pip on the thing, and do some carb fiddling... do you think it could be made 'tidy' enough to do tests on?

If so... back to the top; tested; licence in your pocket, would you still want to chuck money and effort at it?

Tackling a Super-Dream 125, head on, and making something worth the effort; well, have a look at Snowies 'Top End' renovation blog on S&T... Build bill topped £2K and she has a borrowed engine at the moment; waiting on me finding funds and bits to build a top end, and tuned benley motor. Doing one that you would REALLY want to keep hold of, costs.

My Blog on the Corporal's renovation, is more doable. I did that one as an 'every-day' practical classic, and I tried (and failed) to bring it in for less than I sold it to Smiler (£750). With the advantage of that big pile of ready spares from the bikes I have broken. Realistically to 'do' a Super-Dream from a £250 'base', including an engine rebuild, you are looking at, £750-£1000, all in.

Your notional £500 budget to get your bike scrubbed up and make nice, is realistic, and you could do a lot; but you wont have a lot in the pot to pretty it up; that will just about tackle the main mechanicals, and ONLY if there are no 'biggies'. Biggies on these bikes:
1/ Engine
2/ Rear Suspension
3/ Front Brake

Rear suspension is £200+s worth if its utterly shot and needs major overhaul with new bushes and shock.

Front brake; its twin piston floating caliper. those two pistons double the overhaul cost, compared to most lightweights brakes. If you need to overhaul the master cylinder; replace the brake hose; replace the pistoins and seals; and pads, and disc,; this one sub-assembly alone CAN cost £200ish.

Engine; prices already mentioned; to 'do' the bare minimum from the cases up, £200 up.

Your budget, doesn't give you much room for niceties; like powder coating the frame, or nicely painting the shiney bits, or making it look 'factory' with decals.

You have all the pottentials I had with the Corporal, and the known starts that above what I did with the Corporal, you need tyres; £60 for hard cheapo's; £90 for nice grippy M45's. And exhaust. I had to find exhaust on the Corp, but uncosted; I took it off one of the scrappers. Front brake I wasn't happy with; again, I circumvented that with bits from a scrapper, and I was 'lucky' with the rear suspension; it coming up with clean and grease and again, shocker from a scrapper.....

THAT is what you are faced with. So back to break-point.

IF you want a CB125 Super-Dream, you have built, with all the satisfaction that offers, and rides really nicely, like they should, and is a joy to own, AND looks good, and LOOKS like its worth all the money and effort.... you are going to have to up the budget, to do some of the niceties, AND cover any maledies like brake or suspension...

So... to do your bike justice.... with a full licence in your pocket....

Is your Super-Dream, worth £1200 to YOU?

I can tell you now, that it wont be worth that to very many people who actually have that money, if you sold it, no matter how 'nice' it was when done.

If so; then yoru £500 budget would get things moving, but realistically, its the old 'double the money' tripple the time' addage. Doing it justice, you need to be prepared to spend up to a grand, over what is sitting infront of you here and now.

And, plenty of scope, if you get carried away, for those costs to escalate, unless you hold the purse strings tightly;

You look at the frame and see add for powder coating £45. Do a quick reckon, and tally up big can of smoothrite and some thinners, plus a couple of brushes and conclude its 'only' and extra £20 for a 'forever' finish.... so, while you are at it, you chuck the swing arm, suspension drop links, head-lamp bracket, steering yokes, indicator brackets, bar clamps, and a few other odds and sods like the centre stand, the brake pedal... and your powder coating bill, goes from £45 for just a frame, to £145, for everything else you COULD have painted out of that £15 can of smoothrite....

You look at second hand exhausts, and ponder similarly, when T-Shock pipes are only £50 a side, and again, brand new pipes; twice the price but more than twice the life.... but your £40 second hand exhuats suddenly becomes a £130, when you get the correct 'pattern' replacements for a super-dream.... but hey-ho, at least they are as shiney as the paint and decals, that has gone from 'a couple of £8 Halfords Rattle-Cans, to two £8 cans of primer, one £10 can of hi-build, two cans of £12 colour coat, two cans of £10 clear coat; one can of £15 petrol-proof laquer, AND £30's worth of vynal decals.....

And YES, 'Done' it ought to be a really nice bike to ride; something a lot more 'special' than a three year old YBR125 that costs the same money, and ought to have a lot more life in it; and be rather more exiting to ride than that or a CG125.....

But it will only be worth the money, let alone the effort to YOU.

It will NOT be a bargain; you will not make money on it; you WILL get a nice bike..... BUT, being realistic, you HAVE to be sure that you will get two to three years use out of it, to get any real value back from it all, before the sell price you might get isn't so gauling. And realistically, it needs to be a bike that when you do decide you want to move up; gets stuck in the garage as a souvineer of your efforts, and early exploits, you can afford to litterally 'write off' and not need to justify against travel.

I cant tell you what to do, and I have laid it out pretty hard, and made it look a non-starter.

Its NOT a complete non-starter. I do these bikes for fun. I would not be put off. BUT I do have some advantages. One is that big pile of ready spares. Other is I have done a few bikes before, including a couple of Super-Dreams. And while the Corporal cost me more to renovate than I sold it for; it was 'within limits' and I had eight months use of the bike, and learned a lot about super-dream foibles in the process, and well... you win some, you loose some, and I have another five bikes to 'do'.

In your shoes; more risk of budget over-run and problem magnifiers; but also better chance you COULD get the value from any excess expendature from use.

BUT, we are up into three year old YBR territoty, you really need to think about the real 'worth' beyoind the numbers and whether its worth it to you, AND nieve optimism dampened IF you can deal with a project of this order.

Helicoiling spark-plug holes?

Remove the Cylinder head; take the head, on its own to an engine re conditioners; and see what they say. If they dont do many motorbike engines, they may refer you to some-one that does, becouse Super-Dream has small plugs, they may not have drill, taps and coils to do; BUT they will tell you who does.

Fall-Back; if you end up heding down to me to root through ready-spares; I have a very helpful engine reconditioners on my door-step; and if they cant do it; can probably find a replacement head in the pile of spares! (I have clocked a rather scruffy Micron 2-1 system, that's been plated and pin-hole puddle welded, in a couple of places, but is serviceable, and may be some use to you!)

CBT is compulsary basic training; it is not a 'test' but your first riding lesson.

Certificate of completion validates your 'provisional' licence entitlement; is the provided for you to LEARN, not scoot about for the next tow years thinking its the be all and end all.

Motorcycles are THE mjost dangerouse form of motorised transport on the roads, YET the only bludy vehicle we let complete newbies out on, unsupervised. before passing a competancy test.

JUST becouse the bike is small does NOT mean its any 'safer'...

It has two wheels and en engine that ought to be able to get it up to maximum allowable speed limits in this country, or at least pretty bludy close, and out-accelerate most family saloon cars and goods vehicles.

May be small, may be ridiculed, but they are propper motorcycles.

Meanwhile, the light weight; great for making learning easy, becouse its more manageable when you are still a bit wobbly and getting the balence; also doesn't damp any clumsiness in your control inputs so they show up your mistakes and help you correct them and get smooth, fairly easily.

But, they take more effort to ride, needing more work from you due to having so little power, and less weight means they are less inherently stable.

Great for learning, which ought to be the objective.

125's are ecconomical, to a point. More sporty ones can actually be more expensive to run than big bikes. But 'sensible' commuter bikes up to about 500cc can offer some savings over an ecconomy car, and some over 125 commuters can actually be more ecconomical than 125's.

125's being learner legal are horendousely over priced. £800 will get you a tired Honda CG125, I personally wouldn't reccomend* or a ratty YBR125. Same money in the big bike world would buy you a pretty good GS500, half that, a pretty stunning CD200**.

Insurance on 125's; due to being the bikes crashed by learners, is heavily loaded too. My DT125 costs 50% more, a year to insure than my Honda 750, more 'humble' CB125, only £10 less than the 750!

125's tend to be owned by Learners. By defanitiuon, few have much experience or know how, either riding or looking after bikes. They are also of limited performance. AND they are lightweights; build down to a quality to keep prices reasonable and the weight sensible.

Consequently, they are NOT built to 'last' like a high mile, large capacity tourer, and demand a lot more frequent maintenance. Though usually it is fairly undemanding and inexpensive, but they still need it.

They are then bought and ridden by learners; who are shall we say less than 'delicate' with them; making clumpy gear changes, and being heavy handed on the brakes, and endlesly practicing for tests, accelerating away from junctions, braking up to round abouts, doing e-stops, and generally working the bikes hard... and frequently crashing them.... and thrashing them.... AND being just as delicate and sympathitic about the maintenence.

125's have a hard life. They cost a lot; because more people want them than have them for sale; and many of them, newbies remember, wouldn't know what to look at when buying one, or which bikes to walk away from.

And every-one wants a 'bargain'.

Trouble is, when you are learning; you want the best damn wheels under your bum you can get.

Last thing you need when you are a wobbly early rider, is a bike doing some wobling beneath you on its own account, becouse its suspension if clapped out, ot it's bearings buggered, or its frame not straight.

You'd never know whether any thing 'not right' was you, or the bike, or whether thats how things ought to be!

Decent wheels eliminate the variables; and let you get on with the business of learning to ride, and make it a lot more enjoyable.

Unfortunately £800 is only JUST above scraping the dregs of the barel. Benchmark for value for money is a three year old, first MOT fresh Yamaha YBR, that's just young enough to have some confidence its mechanically sound, but just old enough to have a realistic price tag (about £1500) and give you least cost of ownership, needing least maintenence & repairs, and having smallest depreciation.

We also haven't mentioned 'Kit'....

You NEED to be legal a propper motorcycle helmet. They start at around £30, but you buy by fit, not price. A hat that doesn't fit dont save your head, and one thats uncomfortable or mists up, can be worse than useless. Budget up to £150 for a 'decent' hat. If you can get one cheaper that's a good fit, and has decent visor & venting, treat saving as bonus.

Now look out the window. Its December.

You will want, a decent set of wet weathers, some decent riding boots, and some bludy good gloves.

Start with the gloves. Budget another £50-£80 for good gloves. Keep your hands warm so you can control the bike. Also save skin when you fall off. Dont skimp on them.

Boots? Cheapo's start from about £40, and go up to hundreds. £80 ought to get you something fairly warm and moderately water-proof.

Rest you can skimp on if you want. Army surplus stores, and industrial clothing shops can chuck up useful waterproof over torusers and jacket or 'containment suits', that may be cheaper than an all in one bike-suit, though likely to be billowy and baggy in teh wind.

Dedicated biker water-proof over suits tend to be in the £30-£80 region, and are worth the investment.

Under them you can bulk up for warmth and protection with layers; again Army surplus can be useful.

Dedicated biker wear; you are looking at maybe £80 up for textile or leather riding trousers, £100is up for a textile or leather riding jacket.

I advocate avoiding the 'Rhino' or 'akito' 'My First Riding Outfit' all for under £200, boots, trousers, jacket and gloves; especially leathers, even more so this time of year. Leather is niether warm nor water-proof, and its 'protection' is great on a race track, sliding for long distances accross uninterupted tarmac, but on the road, where a slide is likely to be halted pretty soon by something hard and unyeilding, practicality of textiles, is worth while trade off.

So... whats the Total? Realistically, you could easily blow half your £800 budget JUST getting kitted out in bike wear....

Have you factored this into your calculations? Its a big investment; especially if it turns out you cant stand the cold and the dark and the misery of winter riding!

And then there is that 'after CBT'. what beyond your ;first lesson'?

FORGET you can drive a car. Does NOT put you ahead of the game; does not mean you will be a 'safe' rider, and its 'just' getting used to a different vehicle.

As a CBT instructor I have tought FAR too many car drivers to let that presumption be made.

Yes, you have a familiarity with the roads; but almost certain you will also have a lot of bad habbits, and when you start riding a bike, you will almost definitely try reverting to 'driving' the motorbike, rather than riding it; and there are loads of car-driver habbits that you will have to break, to start 'riding', which can make it HARDER for you to learn, and be tought.

Approach it with an open mind. Do not believe you have any 'advantage' or you already know stuff. You WILL know stuff that is transferable; but use that knowledge when it rears as a heads up to enquire, and make comparisons and FIND the differences,

And; you have got a car licence. You wouldn't expect to be allowed to jump straight into a car and drive it, on your own, unsupervised after just the first lesson; and you already KNOW that you did MOST of your learning to drive AFTER you passed your test.

And you are clambering onto a vehicle with the soft-bit (you) on the outside. Helmets, gloves leathers do NOT make you safe.

They are the last line of defence; they dont stop you getting hurt; just limit how much it's going to hurt when all else has failed.

Primary protection; first line of defence, is hazard awareness. Spotting Danger and NOT GOING THERE!

Secondary Protection; Hazard avasion; SHIT! Just got myself into danger/Some-one just shoved me into danger... how do I get OUT of danger!? BRake, steer, accelerate, control the machine, DONT let the accident happen.

Tersiary protection: last l;ine of defence, all else has failed; you didn't spot the danger, couldn't get out of the danger... Oh FUCK this GONNA hurt.... hat, gloves, coat... all it will do is save SOME of that hurt.

We survive on our wits.... keeping these about is us THE most important safety aid we have; and it starts by making sound and informed decissions, and managing risks.

FACT; you stand three times the risk of crashing a motorcycle than you do a car.

FACT; if you crash a motorcycle you are three times more likely to be seriousely injured or killed.

FACT; as a LEARNER rider, you are at LEAST three times more likely to crash than a qualified rider, who is still probably three times more likely to crash than a rider with more than three years continiouse riding experience.

SO.... back to this idea of getting a bike and taking to the roads after JUST the first lesson?

Is that a great idea?

Training & tests. get OUT of that initial danger zone as SOON as you can. Not a lot else you can do apart from keeping your wits about you.

And; soon as you have a full licence; you can dump the bludy L-Plates, consider yourself a 'propper' biker, and door is open to all manner of machinary, to suit all maner of means and aspirations. Big Bikes, Small Bikes, Inbetween-Bikes; Seriouse Bikes, Silly-Bikes, expensive bikes, cheap bikes, WHATEVER.... choices abound, and it only gets better. But the licence is the key to all.

* CG125's: Note comments about How hard 125's live. CG has been out of serial production now for about 8 years, which is roughly the anticipated service life of a 125 commuter. They last longer, but service costs and demands tend to be high. CG's reputation is also that they are 'indestructable' or 'you cant go wrong with a CG'. They aren't and you can. The reputation has inflated prices significantly in recent years; while as they have ceased making any more, pool has been getting gradually smaller and into generally worse state. Bit problem with teh CG125 is that too many are the victim of thier own reputation; and 'llow maintenence' is read as NO maintenence; while, the idea you can buy one cheap, and flog it for what you paid for it, has been stretched to rediculouse levels, where people expect to buy them for a few hundred quid, and then sell them for MORE than they paid, to cover teh costs of all teh bodge repairs they have made when they have broken becouse they were old and clapped out to begin with, and they did no preventative maintenance. They are not a 'bad' bike, but these days, personally I would avoid.

** The Honda CD200Benley, is probably about the Cheapest wheels you can possibly get at the moment. They haven't made them since the early 90's or so, but many very well looked after examples survive and fetch pennies on the second hand market.
£400 can get you something very very tidy. They are a four stroke twin, of 198cc displacement. Tuned for ecconomy, they have only about 15bhp, barely more than a sporty 125. But they can better 125 ecconomy, the extra cc's giving them that bit more 'grunt' meaning they dont have to be thrashed so hard to go as fast.
Reason they are so cheap, is few want them. Any-one with a full licence needed to ride them; usually want much more performance for thier money. So they are cheap to buy, and very very cheap to insure. And as such, set a bench-mark for just how cheap, cheap biking can be. BUT you need a full licence.

Riding 125's; twenty years ago, I had Shoei lid; and was remarkeable how people would nod, THEN do a double take as they saw I was on a tiddler... bike was nicked and crashed a while later, and through seperate insurance claim; Uni digs from hell were burgled; I got household Ins to buy me a top of the range Shoei GRV GP replica, the Wayne Gardner paint distinctive and imedietly 'Expensive Hat'.... just got cash to fix stolen recovered bike, and slapped on a Power-Bronze twin headlamp full fairing, in place of the mish-mash of seperate bits Kawasaki fitted, which individually were responsible for it being deemed a 'total loss', and cheaper to replace them and the mangled lamp brackets and missing lamp with the Power-Bronze 'Dustbin'.... that made it look rather like a contemprary GSXR! (not intensional in any way; just worked out like that!)

Now, I'm not a safety jockey; I dont always ride in full leathers, nor even a full face helmet; and I do find it amusing, how I get ignored or nodded, depending on whether the bike I'm on has L-Plates and what I'm wearing, and by who!

Honda CB125...

Leave the L-Plates on becouse I'm, fault finding for Snowie, and probably in overalls and an open face, NO-ONE aknowledges me if they can avoid it....

Though, I did ONCE get a BIG thumbs up from a ZX6 pilot, becouse, when I took hand off the bars to remove fag from my mouth and flick the ash.....

Swap open face for full face and my overalls for jeans & BLJ... I get the odd nod...... and even the occassional one from cruiser riders.... though more often if I'm in Jeans & BLJ with open face.....

Chuck the full leathers on, becouse its cold...... suddenly sportsbike riders start aknowledging me.

I merely find it amusing; I dont wave.... hands are usually best kept on the bars (except when flicking fag ash... which is a safety measure, not good to get hot ash in your eye!); but do nod or flash.

But, intreguing to know, that unless I 'instantly' look like YOUR kind of biker, by way of what I am wearing / riding...... probably wont get the time of day from you......

Ent the net great? Becouse here, you cant see what I am wearing (Be thankful for small mercies!) or what I ride... YET we all talk and get along, and aknowledge each other, even offer 'respect' via the khama system, to people we probably WOULDN'T nod to on the road..... a curiouse little notion to consider.....

[Jewlio Iglesias]

What is CBT?

CBT is Compulsory Basic Training. TRAINING, it is not, repeat, NOT a 'Test'. Simply means you have had the FIRST LESSON!

It is NOT a riding qualification; it doesn't mean you have 'earned' your 'learner-licence', it doesn't mean you are a competent rider, and it does NOT teach you 'everything' you may need to know to be able to pass the actual licence tests!

At the end of it, IF you have reached a 'satisfactory' (very low!) standard of competence throughout the course, you are awarded your DL196, or CBT (Completion) Certificate, that validates the provisional entitlement of your licence, that lets you START riding on the roads, unsupervised, on a 'Learner-Legal' Motorcycle, for up to two years.

I go into a lot more about CBT & what you do, and how it is organised, in Tell me more about CBT?, so keeping it brief, here. The Course is designed so that an average student ought to be able to complete the course in a day, and be able to start riding, RELATIVELY safely. (Though depending on how much you have to learn, and how long it takes to master the exercises, SOME students may have to come back for 'further' training. They do NOT 'fail' CBT, they merely do not 'complete' the course to satisfactory standard)

IT'S YOUR FIRST LESSON

As such, before you invest ANY money in a bike, or gear, or 'anything', its a very good way to have a go, and see if you actually LIKE riding a bike. It ISN'T something for every-one, and some people struggle, and decide after that biking really isn't for them. Though, MOST I have to say, usually leave their CBT fired with enthusiasm and even more eager than when they started.

IT'S NOT A TEST

So, you DO NOT have to practice for it; you do NOT have to do ANYTHING much before hand; just turn up and do, and if you have any questions; ASK THEM! That is what the course is for. It is your introduction to biking.

Its a Day-Out, doing a new thing. When you book, you ought to be given some advice on what you'll need. Some schools will provide pretty much everything; bike, helmet, gloves, water-proofs. Some even offer lunch! However, 'School' rider-wear is often not that err... 'nice'... and most people prefer to buy and bring their own 'kit' before hand. Again, I offer advice on this in Tell me more about CBT?, but potted version is talk to the school, ASK what you should bring. Probably, "Crash-Helmet, Gloves, Lunch, Common sense, and wear 'sensible' out-door clothing, and check the weather forecast before you dress!

CBT is to help you get a bit clued up, and we TRY and make it fun. So DON'T worry about it. Its just a day out, playing with motorbikes. Your first lesson; You don't NEED to know anything about them before you begin, and it WONT make you an expert in a day, but it will give you a good start.

DO I Have to Do CBT?

YES!

OK, actually, there are a few exceptions. BUT WHAT THE HECK! If you have to ask, then YES YOU DO!

Generally ANY new rider will have to complete a CBT course to gain their DL196 form, to validate the entitlement of their provisional licence to ride on the road.

If you check the Directgov website; there are some confusing exceptions and exemptions; some drivers have exemptions under what are known as 'Granddad-Rights' because they gained provisional entitlement before CBT was 'invented' (circa 1990 ISTR). There is a raft of convolutions around moped licences for car licence holders that get quite confusing too.

BUT, ultimately, if you want to ride a powered-two-wheeler.. that's instructor speak for a moped, motorbike or scooter, by the way, on the roads... JUST do the ruddy course!

If you DON'T by dint of one of these wonderful 'exemptions' ACTUALLY need the Certificate? Well, what the heck. Damn site better to have the form and NOT need it, than have to argue about it with some half clued up beurocrat that expects to see it!

Meanwhile JUST for the sake of; the course IS a good start, and it WILL teach you something, and that 'something' could just be the one thing that saves your life, OR points on your licence, OR a painful and or expensive accident!

I used to teach CBT courses, I ought to 'Know it all' you would hope! Well, I sat in on my Girlfreind's CBT course last year, and it wasn't SUCH a vital detail, but I picked up some hints and tips on motorcycle maintenance, an easier way to do something, and some suggestions about looking after my crash-helmet and avoiding 'glare' on the visor. We can ALL learn something new!

Its a VERY worth-While course, for ANY-ONE starting out riding a motorbike, or coming back to riding one after some years break.

So JUST 'do-It'!

I don't see the point in getting a licence; why should I bother?

The Provisional Licence Validated by CBT is NOT a 'Licence-to-Ride' its a 'learner's permit', a chance to get some practice so you can take the tests and get the 'Proper' Licence.

Every OTHER motorised road-user HAS to pass their tests BEFORE they are allowed on the road, unsupervised. Fact that motorcycles are the exception is actually rather bizarre, given that motorcycles are the mort dangerous form of motorised transport, and unsupervised L-Platers the MOST likely to crash!

The FULL Motorcycle Licence is your PASSPORT to ALL biking has to offer & ONCE you have it, you have it for LIFE!

Well, with the qualification, that during the first two years, under the new drivers act, you don't get it revoked, or after that, suspended by being an arse! Other than that; once you have the entitlement its ON your licence as long as you hold it. JOB DONE. And....

it is a FULL Licence, NOT a 'Big-Bike' Licence!

No-One is going to take it off you, if you don't go out and buy a bike over 200cc within six months of getting it or anything! You can ride a 'Small' bike on a Full-Licence same as you can a big one!

And, OK, you may have a hundred and one reasons NOT to think it's IMPORTANT enough to do as LONG as you can get out and ride a 125 on L-Plates without it, WHY bother? Just keep repeating CBT every two years.

I have heard EVERY single excuse for 'perpetual L-Plating' from perpetual L-Platers they can think of, and there is NO real valid reason for it. End of the day, boils down to Laziness, and ignorance. Or possibly JUST laziness, not being bothered to go find out the facts!

BUT, Lets hear a few of them out?

I only want a scooter to get to work. I don't want a big-bike. So why waste money on paying for tests?
I'm 18, I cant afford to insure a car, so I only want a bike, until I can afford to buy a car?
I only ride for fun, got an RS125 'full-power', and that's expensive enough to keep on the road; If I did tests I'd want an R6 or something, and I cant afford that, not for the miles I do!
I'm over 21, I cant afford to 'Do-DAS'

Yeah! an ALL to common attitude, amongst scooter riders. You buy a scooter because its CHEAP, so why spend money you DON'T have to! Tests cost money, and if you can get to work without them, why buy'em? Same with riding as a stop-gap until affording a car, and the more bizarre notion of a 'cheap' week-end 'Toy' bike. Almost all of them MONEY is a big part of the argument.

Well, IF you can afford to ride a bike, ANY bike, you can bludy well afford to take the sodding tests, mate!

The tests cost a mere £121.50 (as 2012) over and above CBT to let you wobble about an UNQUALIFIED hazard on the roads. Elsewhere I go into the costs of getting on the road, and if you can get a Learner-Legal Motorcycle, taxed, tested and road-worthy, afford to buy a helmet, insurance, and stick petrol in the ruddy thing, you will be doing damn well, to do so for under £1000. More realistically you will be looking at having to spend, £1500 - £2500 'all in'. £121.50 in THAT greater scheme of stuff is PEANUTS. And if you cant budget THAT right at the start, DON'T BOTHER even trying!

If you don't pass the bike tests within the first two years provided by your first CBT certificate? Well, you will have to repeat the CBT to extend your licence entitlement to carry on riding. THAT can be as expensive as simply doing the tests!

But WHY would you NOT take the tests? Either you are too lazy OR you don't think you are good enough to pass.

If you don't think you are good-enough to pass, WHAT THE FRIGG are you doing on the road?!?!?!?

Tests are there to set a basic level of competence, if you haven't got that, then you shouldn't be there. You are a DANGER to yourself and others!

Many DO seem to think that the tests are 'Very-Hard', but really, what they are asking you to show them is that you can ride around a few cones without falling over, and can ride on the road, in real traffic for forty minutes, not break any laws, or hurt any-one! If you are riding to and from work or college every day, you are PROBABLY already doing 90% of what they expect!

I only want a scooter to get to work. I don't want a big-bike. So why waste money on paying for tests?

See: I Only want a 'little' bike, It's not THAT dangerous, is it? Its NOT like I'm jumping straight on a loonie-big-bike!. You are not 'protected' in anyway, pretending to be a learner, riding a lightweight. Its JUST as dangerous, AND your economic argument's DO NOT hold water.

Repeating CBT every two years, is as expensive as doing the tests.

The Idea that a 'Learner-Legal' HAS to be 'Cheap' is also a fallacy. Yes they CAN return very good mpg, BUT; the actual bike is a LOT more expensive than it needs be JUST because it's learner legal. With a FULL licence you have access to the whole panoply of motorcycles, and where you will struggle to find a 'good' Learner-Legal for under £1000, you can get any number of VERY good bigger bikes for the same money.

BUT, for the super-tight economy-commuter, there is a very big 'bargain basement' of machines in the 'forgotten' capacity class from 150cc to 400cc; machines that often have hardly any more performance than a Learner-Legal, but only Full-Licence holders, most of whom having qualification to have a much more interesting machine, simply DON'T WANT!

These bikes, are often half the price or LESS than a similar 'Learner-Legal' machine, AND frequently an AWFUL lot less to insure. They cost no more to run, and frequently return as good mpg, sometimes even better.

So, idea that staying on L-Plates is saving you money is a fallacy. IF you wanted super-cheap wheels, the FULL-LICENCE, Is the pass-port NOT just to bigger, more powerful and more exiting motorcycles, but to ones that can save you EVEN more money.

I'm 18, I cant afford to insure a car, so I only want a bike, until I can afford to buy a car?

So TAKE the ruddy tests and EARN your road-space like any-one else then! As the Scooter-Commuter; you aren't saving any money wobbling about on L-Plates. Use some of that 'saving' you are making to get the ruddy tests! Its just LAZINESS not bothering, and laziness on a bike is NOT a good way to survive.

I'm over 21, I cant afford to 'Do-DAS'

So? Why do you THINK that because you're re over 21 you HAVE do 'Do-DAS'? MORE why do you think that to 'Do-DAS' you HAVE to spend some ridiculous amount of money on an 'Intensive DAS' Course?

This is shear ignorance. You DO NOT have to do a DAS course just because you are over 21. Go read the sections: What is 'DAS'? & Intensive DAS Courses' What's the score?

I only ride for fun, got an RS125 'full-power', and that's expensive enough to keep on the road; If I did tests I'd want an R6 or something, and I cant afford that, not for miles I do!

If you have a 'Full-Power' sports 125, you DON'T have a licence to ride the frigging thing to start with!

The Provisional Licence allows you to ride a bike up to 125cc and 14.5bhp. A Full-Power 'Sports' 125 probably makes something like 25bhp (though undoubtedly you will be convinced it HAS to make 33), and riding one, without a Full-Licence is NO DIFFERENT to riding a 250, or 400, 600 or 1000, you equally DON'T have the entitlement to ride!

It is NOT some bit of criminal 'genius'; it's not what 'every-one' does. Its not 'all part of biking', its certainly not 'expected'.

IT IS ILLEGAL

Got insurance on it? Well, implying that it is learner legal when it isn't, is insurance fraud. You are breaking MORE laws riding a 'cheat' 125 as you would be riding an R6 or whatever you really want, also without Licence or Insurance.....

If you are happy to break these laws, for the sake of the few pennies you probably aren't saving, given that Sports 125's often cost MORE to run than 600's or 750's..... Well, MORE fools logic. You may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb, WHY bother, for the sake of maybe 10-15mph more illegal speed! These bikes may be impressive compared to a 65mph commuter 125, but compared to a 160mph 600? They are STILL not 'quick' or impressive machines to ANY-ONe who knows what they are looking at!

GET THE LICENCE and you can ride that 125 LEGALLY, you could ride the bike you REALLY WANT, LEGALLY, and it will probably be 'Cheaper'! If not, certainly be other bikes that will be!

THE EXCUSES KEEP COMING - But the answer always remains the same. If you want to ride a motorbike, then GET A LICENCE!

All of the excuses get blown away eventually, and it boils down to laziness and ignorance. Its not saving you anything, and the 'Learner-Restrictions' are ENTIRELY self imposed.

If you are OLD ENOUGH to ride a motorbike, if you can AFFORD to ride a motorbike; you are old enough and rich enough to take the tests and have ANY bike you want and can afford, NOT merely a Learner-Legal!

ALL for the sake of taking the tests and getting the PROPER licence.

The Motorcycle Test, Licence Categories & Age Restrictions

To gain a FULL moped or motorcycle licence, there are three tests.

Motorcycle Theory/Hazard Perception

Module 1 'Off-Road' practical test

Module 2 'On-Road' practical test.

These tests are conducted by the Driving Standards Agency, not the school you did CBT with. But the School may offer training to help you pass them.

As from January 19th 2013, there are three 'test schemes'; one for each category of motorcycle licence entitlement, to be applied to the two practical tests, Mod 1 & Mod 2. Plus one for moped entitlement. (Both Practical Tests Mods1 & Mod 2 must be taken on the same class of motorcycle.)

Category AM = Moped

You must be at least 16 years to ride a moped, and to take the full moped licence tests.

You may, upon completion of CBT ride a moped on provisional licence entitlement, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger.

Test requires a vehicle conforming to the legal specifications of a 'Moped' (see:- What is a Moped?), briefly a 50cc motorcycle, that says 'Moped' on the Registration document! It may be any style of powered two wheeler, like a scooter or a sports-bike, it may be twist & go automatic or have gears; but it must be less than 50cc and not be capable of more than about 35mph.

Both tests must be taken, as for the motorcycle test, and The tests are identical to the motorcycle tests, though allowances are made for the lower performance of the vehicle; eg during the Mod 1 exercises, that normally require a serve and e-stop manoeuvre above proscribed speeds that a moped would not be expected to achieve.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Category P licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a moped, which must still conform to moped power, speed and weight restrictions. But without L-Plates and you may carry pillion passengers. Note:- Mopeds may NOT use motorways, irrespective of whether the rider has a full licence of any category. (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)



Category A1 = 'Light Motorcycle'

You must be at least 17 years to ride an A1 category 'Light Motorcycle', and to take motorcycle tests under the A1 test scheme.

You may, upon completion of CBT, ride an A1 / Learner-Legal motorcycle on provisional licence entitlement, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger, or use motorways.

Test requires a vehicle conforming to the 'Learner-Legal' Motorcycle ( see:- What is a 'Learner-Legal' Motorcycle?), Briefly a machine up to 125cc, with no more than 11Kw/14.5bhp power, but with minimum performance requirements for test; the machine must be over 120cc capacity and capable of 62mph. Again, the machine may be of any style; a scooter, commuter-bike, sports-bike, cruiser etc, and again, may have a twist & go automatic transmission or manual gears.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Catagory A1 licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a motorcycle of the same performance specification as is 'Learner-Legal' essentially still an 11Kw/14.5bhp 125cc machine, but without L-Plates. You may also carry pillion passengers, and if you wish, use motorways. (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)

Category AM (moped) entitlement is automatically awarded with A1 entitlement, if not already held.

Catagory A2 = 'Middleweight Motorcycle' / Restricted Licence

You must be at least 19 years to ride an A2 category 'Middleweight Motorcycle', and to take motorcycle tests under the A2 test scheme.

Provisional-Licence entitlement remains that you may, upon completion of CBT, ride an A1 / Learner-Legal motorcycle, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger, or use motorways.

You may, NOT however ride ANY motorcycle other machine, unsupervised, ahead of passing the full motorcycle test for higher groups (A2 or A3/Full A)

However, you MAY ride a machine compliant with A2 restrictions, on provisional entitlement, IF you are under supervision of a DSA approved Motorcycle Instructor, or DSA Motorcycle Examiner, whilst training or taking tests. (There is NO exemption to this to ride an A2 machine unsupervised to a motorcycle test)

Test requires a vehicle. of at least 395cc with a power output between 25 and 35 kW (33bhp and 46.6 bhp). No upper engine size limit, but the power to weight ratio must not exceed 0.2kW/kg and it must not be derived from a motorcycle of more than double its power. Again, the machine may be of any style; a scooter, commuter-bike, sports-bike, cruiser etc, and again, may have a twist & go automatic transmission or manual gears.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Catagory A2 licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a motorcycle of ANY engine capacity, but no more than 35Kw (approx 47bhp.) And may not have a power to weight ratio higher than 0.2Kw per Kg. The machine may be restricted from a model that manufacturers standard specifications claims more than 35Kw, but the standard model may not male more than 2 times the power required for restriction. (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)

After Passing tests, you do not need to display L-Plates. You may also carry pillion passengers, and if you wish, use motorways.

Category AM (moped) entitlement, and Category A1 (125 Only Motorcycle) entitlement, is automatically awarded with A2 entitlement, if not already held.

Category A or A3 = Unrestricted Motorcycle / Direct Access Scheme (DAS)

You must be at least 24 years to ride an unrestricted A category Motorcycle and to take motorcycle tests under the A3 / DAS test scheme. OR you must have held an A2 category licence for a minimum of 2 years. (So, if you pass A2 tests when you are 19-21, you can test again for DAS before you are 24, as long as you have held A2 at least 2 years)

Provisional-Licence entitlement remains that you may, upon completion of CBT, ride an A1 / Learner-Legal motorcycle, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger, or use motorways.

You may, NOT however ride ANY motorcycle other machine, unsupervised, ahead of passing the full motorcycle test for that group.

However, you MAY ride any machine on provisional entitlement, IF you are under supervision of a DSA approved Motorcycle Instructor, or DSA Motorcycle Examiner, whilst training or taking tests. (There is NO exemption to this to ride an A2 machine unsupervised to a motorcycle test)

Test requires a vehicle over 595cc with a power output of at least 40kw or (53.6bhp). From the end of 2013 the power output will change to at least 50 kW. A minimum weight of 180 kg will also apply. Again, the machine may be of any style; a scooter, commuter-bike, sports-bike, cruiser etc, and again, may have a twist & go automatic transmission or manual gears.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Category A / A3 licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a motorcycle of ANY engine capacity or engine power output. This does not necessarily mean that you have to, or that it is a good idea, to jump on the biggest, fastest piece of machinery you can find! (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)

After Passing tests, you do not need to display L-Plates. You may also carry pillion passengers, and if you wish, use motorways.

Category AM (moped) entitlement, Category A1 (125 Only Motorcycle) entitlement, and Category A2 (33Kw or 47bhp 'restricted motorcycle) entitlement, is automatically awarded with full A / A3 entitlement, if not already held.

Automatic Transmission Restrictions

Pretty simple; you may test under any of the above test schemes, on a qualifying bike or scooter. Doesn't matter if it has a manual gear-box, or an automatic transmission, provided it meets other test requirements of engine displacement etc.

However IF you choose to use a machine that has an Automatic Transmission, for your tests, then again, you must use an auto for both Mod 1 and Mod 2 tests, AND if you pass both tests, your licence entitlement will be 'endorsed' with a restriction "Automatics Only", and you may NOT ride a geared machine.

Worth noting; The popular Honda C90 'Step-Through' commuter bike, has a three speed 'crunch' gear-box, and an automatic centrifugal clutch like a twist-and-go, and a number of contemporary motorcycles have engines derived from the old C90 motor, and retain the centrifugal clutch. Many now have a four speed gearbox, and have been bored out to a full A2 complient 125cc. The Honda Inova, is basically the successor to the C90 and has the 125cc 4-speed centrifugal clutch engine; but that engine & transmission is also used in many monkey-bikes, and pit-bikes, which are all A2 test compliant, if road-legal. However without a 'manual-clutch', a little digging with the DSA has revealed they are classed as 'Semi-Automatic' and hence testing on one will gain Auto-Only restriction, the same as testing on a twist & go. Bit of a pity that, as they DO have gears, but still.

When I gained my licence back in 1992, there was only one test scheme; you took the test on any 'learner-legal' motorcycle, up to 125cc that wasn't a moped, and you gained, straight away, a full unrestricted, ride what you like licence. They changed that, and until this year, you had to use a bike between 120 & 125cc, and do all three tests; and if you passed you got a restricted licence, that limited you to 33bhp machines for two years. But either way, it WAS possible to take tests on a 'Twist & Go' Automatic scooter, and gain a Full unrestricted ride what you like motorcycle licence with Auto-Only restriction... which was nie on useless; as there are almost NO automatic motorcycles over 125cc!

Actually, I can name, err... four. All built briefly in the 1970's and failing to gain market acceptance, any survivors probably hoarded 'collectors' items living on plinths in museums! The Moto-Guzzi 1000cc 'Convert'; The Honda CB750 'Four' Auto and the Honda CB400 'Auto', and a Hausquavana 500 two stroke Enduro bike!

So if you wanted a motorbike, an Auto-Only licence was significantly useless, and limited you to basically riding twist and go Learner-Legal scooters. And significantly, probably still does.

However, the popularity of the scooter has been rising in the last decade, seeing the genre creep out of the sub 125cc learner-legal bracket, back into the 250 class that some used to occupy back in the 'Mods & Rockers' era, and beyond, with the innovation of the 'Super-Scooter' that can be as big as a large motorcycle and have an engine as big as I believe 800cc these days, but still with a twist and go automatic transmission.

There are a few modern motorcycles with sophisticated 'automated' and usually selectable transmissions. Mostly from Honda. Electronically controlled, the ratio's shifted mechanically by electronic servos controlled by a micro-processor, the gears may be selected entirely by the micro-processor in a 'fully-auto' mode, or manually by the rider, in 'manual' mode, either by switches on a gear lever that mimic a traditional mechanical gear linkage, or by hand operated push-buttons. Strictly, I believe that these are classed as having a 'manual' transmission, and to be able to ride one on a licence with Auto-Only restriction would require any 'manual' mode to be disabled.... but I think that this remains something of a grey area, and an area of uncertainty for all concerned.

More conventionally, the Auto-Only restriction essentially limits riders to twist and go scooters, or whatever capacity licence entitlement provides; though with few 600+cc super scooters; gaining a Full Unrestricted A licence with Auto-Only restriction remains very unlikely. It may be possible to gain an A2 class licence on a 400-500cc super-scooter, and it would seem that manufacturers are designing more recent models to meet this licence requirement, and this may become more popular. But it remains that the Auto-Only restriction will probably remain most common for people riding A2 compliant Learner-Legal scooters.

The new three category licence system, does however raise a couple of questions with regard to auto-only restrictions. Mainly, if you take tests for one category on a geared machine, and another on an auto... what happens?

Well, up until now, if you took your Moped test and gained moped entitlement on a twist & go moped, you would have got the Auto-Only restriction against the entitlement. If you then took your motorcycle tests on a geared 125 or DAS bike, that would provide moped entitlement without automatic only restriction, so it should have been lifted form the licence, passing test at a higher category level superseding the lower entitlement. this 'precedent' I believe remains.

So, if you take, say the A1 test on a 125cc 'Twist & Go' scooter, and wish to take the A2 or A3 tests and do so on a geared bike, then you would gain A2 or A3 entitlement without Auto-Restriction, lifting that restriction from A1 entitlement.

However, what if you took your A1 licence test on a geared 125 and then took the A2 on a twist & go super-scooter?

Well, if you have gained a licence entitlement, then they cant really take it off you again, or impose a restriction on it. So if you had A1 entitlement without Auto-Only restriction, that would remain. BUT the auto-only restriction would be endorsed along side the higher group; so you would still be able to ride a geared 125, but anything bigger, would have to be an Auto to remain within the entitlements of your licence.

It is 'Best' if you can, to test on a geared machine. You can ride an auto on a licence without auto-only restriction, but you cant ride a geared bike on one with!

One amusing anomaly to ponder though; IF you took your A1 test on a twist and go 125 scooter; you would gain full A1 licence entitlement, but with Auto-Only restriction. And could then, obviousely ride a twist and go 125 without displaying L-'s and could carry a pillion and use a motorway. However, you still have Provisional entitlement provided for 'all other groups', SO you could still ride an A1 125 with gears..... but you would have to put the L-Plates back on, not carry pillions or use motorways! Now THAT is one to confuse your insurance company!

Side-Cars, Three-Wheeler's, Trikes & Quads

I feel I REALLY ought to mention these automotive anomalies..... yeah... there you go, I have. That ought to be enough! No? Well Oh-Kay then, fine.

These are automotive anomalies. Less than 5% of UK Road-Vehicle registrations are 'Motorcycles' or 'Mopeds'. Probably less than 5% of THEM have more than two wheels! This should NOT effect an awful lot of people! AND its such a godawful MESS where even the DVLA and DSA often don't know the answers, I'm sure as heck not able to!

So what I DO know! Well....

You may no longer take a motorcycle test on a motorcycle outfit, three wheeler or trike, unless you have a registered disability that prohibits you riding a solo machine, and any licence entitlement gained will be endorsed with restriction to the type of machine on which you took the tests. Ie if tested on a trike under disability dispensation, you couldn't ride a solo after without retesting.

Beyond that, it starts getting murky.

I believe that you MAY still be able to ride a motorcycle and side car 'outfit', unsupervised, on a provisional motorcycle licence, AND that if you do, the 125cc engine displacement restriction does not apply. You DO have to have a valid CBT certificate though, and the out-fit may NOT have a power to weight ratio higher than that permitted for a Learner-Legal 125 (o.1Kw per Kilo). Also you may NOT carry either a pillion passenger, nor a passenger in the side car. L-Plates must still be displayed, and you may not use motorways. You don't have to be disabled, to ride an outfit on L's, though you do if you want to take tests on it!

Then we are into the mire; because the same applies to trikes, BUT there is a rather impertinent set of questions over reverse gears, and vehicle classifications, dependent on weight and length and such. When is a trike Not a trike? When is a Side-Car outfit not a side car outfit? Even VOSA who's job it is to classify vehicles can struggle with this; DIY constructors of such oddities certainly do! (But I think they often find that half the fun!)

And ultimately, if you are interested in such automotive anathma's.... you have come to the wrong place! Best advice I can give, is if you want to ride a trike or outfit; do your conventional motorcycle tests, get the full motorcycle licence. Then go do the conventional car tests and get the full car licence as WELL, and with a bit of shot-gun marksmanship, you ought to cover the appropriate licence entitlement to ride one!


What Will I need to take to my Tests? How long is each valid for?

OK, Lets run through a Check-list of what you will need to ultimately get a Full-Licence.

A current UK 'Photo-Card' Driving Licence, Full for another group of vehicle, or complete provisional.

A Valid CBT Certificate or DL196 Form (To Validate Provisional Motorcycle Entitlement of Licence)

MOTORCYCLE Theory Test Pass Certificate

Module 1 Test Pass Certificate

Module 2 Test Pass Certificate

Those are the official bits of paper.

CBT-Certificate

I'll deal with CBT in much more detail in:- Tell me more about CBT?. Paperwork wise you don't really need anything apart from your Licence, to do your CBT course. You will however need a motorbike. Most people choose to use a 'school' bike to do their CBT on its easier and simpler. You get a lift to the school and just do what you are told all day, then go home. You MAY choose to do the course on your own machine though, but then you will probably have to provide the documents to show that the machine is legal to be used on the road, and you are insured to do so. Again, I'll deal with these later, Tell me more about CBT?

The CBT Certificate is normally valid for two years from the date of completing the course.

Motorcycle Theory/Hazard Perception Exam

You don't need a motorbike or anything to do the Theory/Hazard perception exam. This is a class-room exercise, you do on a computer. And you don't HAVE to have completed and obtained your CBT Certificate before you take the Theory Exam. You will however be required to show your Driving Licence.

It is important to note that there are a number of different Theory/Hazard perception tests for different vehicle groups. For a motorcycle (or Moped) you MUST pass the one specifically for motorcycles. A normal or 'car' Theory/hazard pass certificate will NOT be accepted towards the motorcycle qualification.

The Theory / Hazard Perception Pass Certificate, is Normally Valid for Two Years.

Module 1 'Off-Road' Practical Test

To take the Module 1 'off-road' practical motorcycle test; you will need to show your:-

Provisional-Licence

Validating CBT Certificate

Theory/Hazard Test Pass Certificate.

You will also need a motorcycle, meeting requirements for test scheme you have booked test under. See:- The Motorcycle Test, Licence Categories & Age Restrictions

Note: The DSA Do NOT provide you with a motorcycle to take your test on. Nor will they 'hire' one to you.

You are responsible for ensuring you have a suitable vehicle to take the test. This may be your own, or hired, possibly via a training school.

You will be required to sign a declaration that the machine you have provided is road-worthy, and legal for you to ride. You MAY be requested to provide proof of this. For example, if you are using your own motorcycle, you may be asked to show the examiner a valid MOT Certificate. If you are using a School machine, you may be required to show a 'Waiver' provided by the school declaring that they have ensured the machine is roadworthy and legal for you to ride.

You will also be required to wear 'suitable' motorcycle attire. The DSA provide guidelines on what they deem and do not deem suitable motorcycle apparel. This means that apart from the legally required safety helmet, they expect you to be wearing 'sensible' protective footwear and gloves, and sensible out-door clothing that covers exposed flesh on arms and legs. They also suggest auxiliary Hi-Vis belt or bib, and take a dim view of trainers and track-suits, and warn that if the examiner is not convinced you are 'suitably' dressed that he may refuse to conduct test, without refund of test-fee.

Module 1 Test Pass Certificate is normally valid until the SAME date as the Theory / Hazard Perception Pass Certificate, that was in force when it was issued. (Ie: if you pass Mod 1 the day after your Theory/Hazard, its valid for almost two years. If you take it a week before your Theory Hazard is due to expire, its only valid for a week!)

Module 2 'On-Road' Practical Test

To take the Module 2 'on-road' practical motorcycle test; you will need to show your:-

Provisional-Licence

Validating CBT Certificate

Theory/Hazard Test Pass Certificate.

Module 1 Test Pass Certificate

NOTE: BOTH Module 1 And Module 2 tests MUST be taken under the SAME test scheme. (See:- The Motorcycle Test, Licence Categories & Age Restrictions.)

Eg: You cant take Mod 1 test on a Moped and the Mod 2 on a 600+cc DAS bike; nor take Mod 1 on a 500cc A2 machine and Mod 2 on an A1 125!

As Mod 1, you will also need a motorcycle, meeting requirements for test scheme you have booked test under. (See:- The Motorcycle Test, Licence Categories & Age Restrictions) And advice with regards documentation pertaining to it. As the test is conducted on public roads, a Certificate of Insurance is likely to be requested.

DSA guidelines and warnings on suitable apparel, again apply, as with the Module 1 Test.

Module 2 Test Pass Certificate is normally valid until your Full Driving Licence is issued, or re-issued showing the new group entitlement.

What Can I ride When I pass Tests?

See:- The Motorcycle Test, Licence Categories & Age Restrictions. What you will be allowed to ride on public roads after passing tests, will depend on which category of licence entitlement you have obtained, and that will depend on the 'test-scheme' you qualified under, basically what sort of bike you did your tests on.

Category AM = Moped

See:- What is a Moped?. The performance limitations imposed by law for a moped are pretty stringent. And loosely, the vehicle cannot have an engine more than 50cc and cant have a top speed more than about 35mph.

Before taking and passing tests you are allowed to ride a Moped on L-Plates, provided you don't carry a pillion passenger.

After Passing tests, you can remove the L-Plates... and that is about ALL.

Mopeds are not allowed on Motorways, whether you have a full moped licence or not. You may, if you have passed moped tests, carry a pillion, but with maybe only three and a half horse-power, at best, you probably wont want to carry one very far or very often!

Worth Noting, that many people seem to think that if you pass moped tests or gain moped entitlement via passing the car test, you can ride a 'De-Restricted' moped. Unfortunately not. The performance limitations set down in law for a moped are exactly that, and if a powered-two-wheeler can achieve more, either by being 'De-Restricted' or conventionally 'tuned'... then it no longer meets legal requirements to be classed as a moped, and cannot be ridden on moped entitlement. See Also:- What's NOT a moped! and De-Restricted Danger.

See Also: - Is it worth taking tests for a moped licence, 125-Only licence, or even A2 'Restricted' licence?

Category A1 = 'Light Motorcycle'

See:- What is a 'Learner-Legal' Motorcycle?. The Capacity & Performance limitations defining an A1 category motorcycle are exactly the same as those for a Learner-Legal motorcycle. Briefly, a machine up to 125cc and less than 11Kw or 14.5bhp, and with a power to weight ratio no higher than 0.1Kw per Kg.

Before taking and passing tests you are allowed to ride an A1 / Learner-Legal motorcycle on L-Plates, provided you don't carry a pillion passenger, or use motorways.

After Passing tests, you can remove the L-Plates... Carry a pillion passenger, and if you wish, use Motorways. Otherwise you are limited to bikes you might have ridden before you passed test.

Category AM (moped) entitlement is automatically awarded with A1 entitlement, if not already held.

Again, worth looking at De-Restricted Danger. The A1 licence is often referred to as a "125-Only" licence, and its often presumed that that means you an ride any 125 irrespective of the power or power to weight limits applied to learner legals. It's a presumption that is likely to be re-enforced by inaccurate re-counting of the 'old' licensing system that awarded a 'restricted A' group licence for testing on a 125, that permitted a machine up to 25Kw or 33bhp, a limit into which many 'Full-Power' or de-restricted sports 125's conveniently fell.

See Also: - Is it worth taking tests for a moped licence, 125-Only licence, or even A2 'Restricted' licence?

Category A2 = 'Middleweight Motorcycle' / Restricted Licence

This is probably the one you are most interested in.... and are likely to be rather frustrated with complicated and half answers... sorry, that's the way it is! Lets see if I can make it reasonably clear though.

When I was 19 years old, 47bhp was nothing to be sneezed at and a 'respectable' amount of power for an 'every-day' useable sports bike, that had to get you too and from work, do the shopping, pick up the girlfriend and still be a bit of fun on the week-end. Its enough to make a motorcycle genuinely capable of a comfortable 110mph; that may only be as 'fast' as a hum-drum modern every day people-mover; BUT, its also still fast enough to loose your newly acquired licence readily enough! And its performance you can use very easily, in a motorbike which can exploit its power to weight ratio for very-high-performance car beating acceleration, as well as its manoeuvrability to keep up a higher average speed, hustling along a twisty road or through snarled traffic.

Its not amazing, but it is still as much as most of us are ever going to really 'need' from a road vehicle, and its a 'reasonable' performance level for a new rider to build up their experience with. In fact, its actually quite a GOOD set of limitations, steering newer riders towards bike that don't deliver instant thrills, without the skills... but steers you towards bikes that as a new rider will encourage you to progress and progress more easily from new rider to experienced rider, learning how bikes behave and how to get the best out of them, that will stand you in good stead for more interesting machines, both gaining the skill to use them, as well as the experience to appreciate them.

So, talking generalities, of what sort of bikes you could have, well, probably easier to bound that with what you almost certainly cant have! The basic limitations are as follows:-

you may ride a motorcycle of ANY engine capacity, but no more than 35Kw (approx 46.5bhp.)

does not not have a power to weight ratio higher than 0.2Kw per Kg.

is not restricted from a 'standard' model developing more than twice the power required for 'restriction'

It's suspected that there may be a few more motorcycles made to meet the A2 licence regulations, 'as standard', and if a bike has a quoted power-output less than 47bhp chances are it is.

At the moment though, if you go through the buyers guides looking for what may or may not be A2 compliant, its a bit depressing. You have ancient 250's from the days when they were Learner-Legal, before 1982, and a rather meagre selection of generally unloved and frequently sore-used 200-400cc 'commuter-bikes' like the Honda CD200 or Honda CB 'Two-Fifty', the Kawasaki GPz305, and some 250 Cruisers, frequently all in the bargain basement of the market; then something of a 'gap' where you would expect to find more inspiring or more tidy machines in the mid-range used market, until you get to brand new, and 'new' used, bikes, up to around five years old, usually commanding rather strong prices for what the bikes are. This includes machines like the Honda CBR250 and the Kawasaki 250 Ninja, and possibly the rare Yamaha YBR250, that were conceived for this licence group when introduced in other euro regions.

Probably the most common A2-Complient as standard bikes is in the area of on-off road machines. Here smaller displacements, fewer cylinders and lower power-outputs are positive benefits to make a light-weight machine for use on unmade surfaces, and I have to say, that if I was 19 again and on a restricted licence, faced with restrictions that seriously discourage a more sporting road-based motorcycle; idea of utilising what performance an A2 licence allows for some off road adventure would be rather more inspiring than the mundanety of a Honda CB Two-Fifty or the frustration of a sports-bike with its interesting bits removed! However, with 'dirt-bikes' while power output is less likely to exceed limits, you do need to pay heed to the weight, as they can easily exceed the power to weight limits, even at quite modest power outputs!

Which brings us to the matter of restriction, and if you don't want or cant find a suitable A2-Complient as standard machine, what could you 'restrict' to BE A2 compliant?

If you like sports-bikes, I'm afraid it doesn't look good!

As a rough reckoner, count the features below.

Engine over 600cc

Engine with more than two cylinders

Engine with water-cooling

Sports-Fairing

Made this Millennium

More than one front brake disc

If you answer 'Yes' to more than three out of the five, the chances are its NOT restrictable!

Working it out is pretty complicated, BUT, basically anything over 93bhp cant possibly be made A2 Compliant, because its over 2x the 47bhp maximum restricted power limit, and you cant restrict a bike by more than half its 'standard' quoted power output.

This then disqualifies almost all modern 'Super-Sports' bikes, from 600cc up. Bikes like the Kawasaki ZX6R 'Ninja' were developing 100bhp as early as 1997, so you are probably going to struggle to find a 600-Sports under the restrict able 93bhp limit, that's been made this century... and even if you did.... you still have to worry about the power to weight limits.... and with bikes like the R6 tipping the scales at a fly-weight 160Kg or so, they would have to be restricted to about 32Kw to be compliant with the 0.2Kw per Kg minimum power to weight limit; ie even less than the 35Kw allowed, and an even bigger proportion of their original standard power out-put.

If a 600-Super-Sports of this millennium wont restrict to A2 compliance, then there is little chance that a litre-Super-Sport will either, so you can take them off the list too.

What about the 400's? Oh yes. NOT a category of machines I am particularly fond of, and few are still in current or even recent manufacturers catalogues. The 'sports 400's are to all extents and purposes 'regulation beating' 600's from the late 80's and early 90's. Japanese domestic licence and taxation regulations was really the only reason they were built, because on their home market, buyers could not have a 600 or bigger machine very easily, and costing as much to manufacture as a full 600, they were often more expensive than their bigger stable mates. A lot were brought in to the UK second hand from Japan in the 1990's to meet demand for second hand middle-weight sports bikes that were in short supply and had strong prices and were sold as a 'Poor-Mans' substitute for the 600's, and consequently often did not get well treated.

Older and smaller in displacement, typical 'standard' power figures for these bikes is in the 50-60bhp range. This is within that which might reasonably be restricted, though they may have to be restricted beneath maximum permissible 47bhp to meet the power to weight limits.

IF 'Modern' Sports-Bikes are your 'bag'; then you are likely to have to accept one of the more 'sporty style' commuters, such as a Honda CBR250, or the Kawasaki 250 Ninja. These machines have been designed expressly it seems for this licence category, and while they probably wont set the world on fire with their statistics, they are a pretty good choice for a new-rider. They have the sporty styling, and as much power as the licence category allows, which can be more than three times that allowed on a 125-Only licence or L-Plates... its certainly enough to be useful and entertaining. It may be a little disappointing that they don't have the 'awesome' performance statistics of the real-deal four-cylinder sports-bikes... but they also don't tend to have the running costs, or compromises to JUST be fast round a race track.

So we have taken most four-cylinder sports bikes out of the frame, and significantly 600+cc sports. If you go back to Kawasaki's 1984 GPz900R, that made over 110bhp, its twice the restriction limit, its a non starter. The 1984 GPz600R that launched the class, that quotes 75bhp & 217Kg... hard to imagine now that we considered this 'light' and 'powerful' when it was new! But anyway. Those numbers make the bike just about restrictable. 75bhp is about 53Kw. You'd have to clip 18Kw off the top or restrict by about 30% of quoted power to get it inside limits, but you wouldn't have to over-restrict it to meet the power-to-weight limit, that starts to effect machines if over 175Kg. Yamaha's FZ750 of 1985? Nope.209Kg, it would be OK on power-to-weight, but at 105bhp, over 2x original power rule. So going back into the 'Modern classics'; Some very early 600 Sports might restrict. But 750's are probably not going to, and litre class bikes almost certainly not.

Go back a bit further, we get back to the old 'Muscle-Bikes' of the late 70's and early 80's... 'real' classics... which may appeal, but, with even the 1980 Honda CB900 making 95bhp, Kawasaki's big Zeds even more... they aren't going to be on the cards either.

So, going forwards again, we start looking at 'standard' bikes, street-bikes, 'retro' bikes or 'naked' class machines. Looking for one to bench-mark from, Yamaha's long running XJ900, leaps out, and again, a 95bhp power output suggests that even that is probably going to be on the limit of what might be restricted.

Tourers? Again, Honda ST1100 Pan-European was designed to be 100bhp Euro compliant, when some countries has a 100bhp maximum power limit. Its NOT looking good for big displacement bikes, or four cylinder machines in general.

Four cylinder bikes that could be restricted, like the popular Suzuki 600 Bandit, or Yamaha XJ600 Diversion, that develop around 70bhp or so, are probably restrict able, but going back again into the classics, even a 1977 Honda CB550, developed 50bhp and would need 'some' restriction. More modern 'Naked' 600's like the Honda CB600 'Hornet' develop over 100bhp, so like sports 600's not on the menu.

This leaves the most likely machines to be single or twin cylinder machines; motorcycles like the long-running Kawasaki GPz500s, its 'naked' stable mate the ER5, Suzukis' popular sporty-twin SV650 and more utilitarian GS500 stable-mate, and the Honda CB500, that have all been 'popular' choices for restriction to the 'old' 25Kw / 33bhp licence limits, and would be even 'better' restricted less to meet A2 licence limitations.

The Kawasaki GPz500s is one of the longest running in this company, launched in 1987 to popular acclaim, with a quoted power output of 60bhp. The less sophisticated Suzuki GS500 has usually been the least powerful of the selection, though quoted power has varied over the model years, around the 50bhp mark, so most probably needing a bit of restriction to meet A2 limits.

Category A or A3 = Unrestricted Motorcycle / Direct Access Scheme (DAS)

Its an unrestricted Ride What you like licence. That means, you can PRETTY MUCH 'Ride what you like'! Almost any bike is game. Pick as much as your balls or bank-balance can stand!

DOESN'T mean that picking the most awesome Sports-Bike you can afford, however is a GOOD IDEA!

It increases your choices; BUT, take the hint. The A2 licence category was introduced expressly to discourage people from leaping straight onto high-performance motorcycles with little experience or appreciation of them, and getting 'all the thrills, without the skills, until it kills'. Biggest death-rate on the roads, is amongst sub 3 year DAS obtained full licence holders. Who think that because the DSA say they 'can' ride what they like, take that to mean that they CAN ride what they like! As though the qualification, means they must have the 'skill'!

And 'trouble' with a lot of modern machinery is that it is SO easy to ride. And sports-bikes in particular. Often suggested that a New Rider on something like an R6 'Will Kill Himself'. The unfortunate thing about these bikes though is they often don't! Very focused on doing one thing, they do that one thing incredibly well, and that one thing is "FAST". Its about all that kind of bike do. They aren't wonderfully comfy, sticking a pillion on the back ruins the balance, and they are cramped enough without trying to strap luggage to them. Its ALL they do. FAST. And they make it EASY. The new rider doesn't have to be a good rider, and doesn't have to work to do 'fast', and the bikes are so incredibly capable they will tolerate an awful lot of clumsiness and lack of precision and deliver a LOT of fast. And its the only sensation of reward you get from riding one.... going blindingly fast, so to get more of it, riders ride faster, and faster and faster, and get to BELIEVE that they are some sort of riding godd, because they are seeing super-stupid speeds on the dial from the bike, and are still alive to tell the tale, ergo the bike that every-one said would kill them, HASN'T..... and that must mean that they are some sort of virtuoso, who has the natural talent and ability to have "mastered the beast"..... accidents happen when confidence out-balances competence.

If they are lucky, the typical DAS qualifying rider, will be a fair-weather leisure rider, and riding few miles on a few sunny days a year, will limit their exposure to risk long enough that they survive to get some better experience, or their new found enthusiasm will fade, fairly fast and within a season or three, they have found other things to thrill them, and move on to something else.

BUT there are FAR too many 'unlucky ones' who often truly believe that they are good and sensible riders, have 'all the gear' and use it 'all the time' and that what they are doing is merely a 'little spirited' riding, not being an utter loonatic.

So if you have some sense, while you MAY be allowed to ride anything you like, as a new rider, respect the fact that you are still an early-learner until you have between three and five years good experience behind you, and more 'boring' bikes, can be a lot more rewarding to ride. Look at what you might ride on an A2 licence, and think hard about what you can really live with. Plenty of bikes that could be restricted to A2 are good friendly useful every-day machines, and as said, sort of bikes IF we were honest that offer 'as much' performance as we ever really 'need'. And on a full A or A3 licence, you merely have the luxury of not having to jump through hoops with insurance companies or any-one trying to get the bike restricted or proving its restricted, and MAY have that 'bit' extra available.

And 'less' can be more. I find modern super-sports bikes incredibly unrewarding to ride. All they do is 'fast', and they don't demand any effort from me as a rider to deliver it. Less capable, more all-round versatile machines, do more. I can stick a passenger on the back, and go places.... in some comfort! I can load it up with luggage and camping kit to do a week-end rally, without having to be a contortionist, or worrying about squeezing stuff into tiny bags or having to wear a ruck-sack. I can ride round town without getting a crick in my neck; AND I can indulge in a little spirited riding down a nice country road..... and experience 'fast'... at less licence threatening velocities, get a lot more riding 'sensation' from a less capable bike being pushed closer to the ragged edge, and a lot more reward and satisfaction having to work for it. All up, it delivers a HECK of a lot more all-round 'Fun'... and for a new rider, you get all that extra 'fun' and the fun of learning.

so while you might be allowed 'Any-Bike'... still good reason to choose something that's more newby-freindly. Learning don't stop when you loose the L-Plates! I've been at it thirty odd years, and I'm STILL learning stuff.

Is Formal Training REALLY worth the money?

YES!

Cost is immaterial. Passing tests a secondary consideration.

How much are you spending on a bike? Jacket? Hat? Any other biking related paraphernalia?

How long do you expect them to last? How much 'Value' do you expect to get from them?

Is £140 for the aural sensation of an after market exhaust pipe that de-values your motorcycle, and increases insurance premiums 'good-value' in your scheme of things?
Is a Dyno-Jet or Power-Commander kit that finds you an extra 4bhp, a worth while investment?
Crash helmet, maybe £100-£400's worth is good for ONE crash.
Set of leathers? £500's worth? Maybe two crashes worth of protection.

Race Can & power commander? 4bhp, maybe an extra 10mph more top end speed and a bit more acceleration if you are lucky.... few seconds of typical journey times. ONLY works as long as you have THAT one bike its fitted to.

TRAINING....

Well, it makes you a BETTER rider, doesn't it.

Old adage at the track. Want this bike to go faster? Fit a better rider. Better rider goes faster, crashes less.

TRAINING makes you a better rider; all well and good having the first lesson of CBT and a bike, but without any more lessons to TEACH you anything more than the VERY basics covered in NOT a lot of depth in CBT, you can 'practice' to your hearts content, and all you will do is practice the basics or learn by making painful and costly mistakes.

Lessons; Well, you cant touch taste, smell or show off lessons, can you? Don't have anything physical to show for your money... and it seems a lot of dosh for not a lot of 'err, well what do you get? Words? & Talks cheap innit?

WRONG; you get WISDOM

Wisdom that tells you what to do RIGHT, right at the beginning, so you DON'T have to learn by falling off....

Wisdom that gives you stuff to practice and get right, early on.

Wisdom that will make you a BETTER RIDER....

A Rider that not ONLY can pass a riding test, but who will ride SAFER.... and NOT crash and NEED that fancy hat.... that's value you CANNOT put a price on!

A Rider who being safer and more highly skilled can manage their bike and get more speed out of it, WITHOUT bolt on extras.....

And THAT value goes onto every bike you will EVER ride

Gets better with experience, never looses value, never takes value off your bike, never puts your insurance prices up.....

Now, go away and look at all the fancy biking 'Stuff' you COULD buy with the money you might hope to save, by NOT having any lessons, and ask yourself IS this really 'good' value for money?

TRAINING IS FOR LIFE

What Training do I need before I take the tests?

NEED? Well, legally you don't 'NEED' any! (beyond CBT) But see above! Its damned useful stuff, and ideally passing tests should be a by-product of training to become a safe competent rider, NOT the goal!

the 'Ideal' way to train, in my opinion, is on your own (learner-Legal) bike. You do your CBT, then as SOON as you are ready to start out on the road on your own, you book some weekly lessons. Schools vary in what they will offer, but two hours a week, is about right.

Starting RIGHT at the start, you learn how to do it RIGHT. Saves learning by your own mistakes, which can be expensive and painful, why its called 'The School of Hard-Knocks!'. and saves you getting into bad-habits.

You do your CBT, ride for a week, have a lesson. Instructor checks your riding, picks up on any mistakes & corrects them, then gives you something 'new' to learn, gives you a chance to get the idea, then sends you home, and you have a whole week, where you can practice this to your hearts content and get it 'nailed'. Following week, you go back, instructor checks your riding, picks up on any mistakes & corrects them, sends you home with something ELSE to practice.

You learn in stages, with plenty of time to master what you are taught. You can learn at your own rate, and it ought to be pretty efficient, because you aren't letting bad habits or problems perpetuate, they are being picked up as you go along and corrected.

On such a course, a 'typical' newbie, could quite easily get to test standard in perhaps, six or eight weeks. Month and a half, two months, and be trained not just to test standard, but with experience gained while being 'mentored', be pretty well 'prepared' for post test riding.

I always say; every HOURS training, in the first month of riding is worth a DAY after a years riding. Many new riders do leave it THAT long by the time they get round to doing any post CBT training, and its often realisation that their CBT cert is about to expire that prompts them to 'cram'; and its often difficult, because they have got used to doing stuff their own way, and it can be three times as hard to get them to ride to the book, when they have never learned the 'right stuff' and their unsupervised L-Plate experience as often has NOT been good, and they have a LOT of bad habits, and often fears of doing stuff, learned from falling off or nearly falling off, when they have had no guidance.

But ultimately, it's a piece of string question, and as mentioned above in comment on What's CBT and below in 'is it any easier'; we ALL learn at different rates, and we start off with some pre-dispositions that might make it easier, others that can make it harder. So I cant say.

BUT, get some training booked, and your instructor should be able to judge to SOME degree how much work you need and where, to give better ideas.

From a standing start though, 16-20 hours of tuition is a good reckoner. , following my ideal model of weekly lessons, that's USUALLY enough to cover a lot of ground and lay down a pretty good foundation skill-set. People doing Intensive DAS courses, can often go from a standing start to getting a licence in that amount of training, though see below, I don't recommend 'Crash-Courses', and candidates will rarely get as MUCH preparation, for their money.

BUT, training to test standard is ONLY the beginning. Once you have that solid foundation skill-set; you are STILL going to be a learner for maybe three years of riding; and as you gain experience, there is a lot you might want to ask about or get advice or instruction on.

So REALLY the answer is, how much do you WANT?

I'm a car driver, so should be easy, just getting used to different controls, right?

NO!

It is true there are SOME 'transferable' skills from car driving to riding a motorbike. Yes, you know many of the road conventions, you have some idea of what a clutch does and 'stuff'. But sorry, a LOT of stuff you do in a car can be UNHELPFUL.

Teaching car drivers to ride motorbikes, I have been beleaguered with the same 'problems' over and over again. And the very FIRST one, is that the car driving student really DO think that they know it all already, and its GOING to be 'Easy'. Unresponsive to learning, they ignore advice, question advice, and in the worse cases it can deteriorate into a battle, where they convince themselves that the instructor is an 'idiot' and that not ONLY do they know it all already, they know BETTER than the instructor.

If you approach Motorcycle training with ANY such pre-conceptions, it WILL make learning harder for you, NOT easier. Thinking you know stuff, you will not pay attention when you think you are being told stuff you already know and WILL 'miss' the vital differences, and you will not 'engage' and will miss opportunities to ask questions, and learn more.

But even with the right attitude, some of the engrained 'habits' of driving a car will take a LOT of breaking.

Humorously, on the CBT play-ground, car driving students can go great guns. Knowing what a clutch is, having some empathy for the throttle, they will seem to pick things up pretty quickly. Then come the after-noon, we go out for the on-road element, and ride OFF the artificial environment of the play-ground, and at the very first junction, on real roads.... they fall over. JUST literally STOP and fall over!

Reason is, that while they are on the simulated and 'unusual' environment of the play-ground its all 'new' and they are learning, and they do as they are told, because they have nothing else suggesting what they should do.

But as SOON as they are on a real road, with houses, white lines, road-signs, parked cars, and the usual furniture of the 'road' they are used to, the ingrained 'instinct' of driving a car 'kicks in; and at that first junction, they STOP, and sit there, just like they would in a car.... I even had ONE student once reach down to put the hand-brake on before he toppled!

Because they have forgotten to put their foot down!

Most remember.... eventually... a few before bits of bike touch tarmac, but not all, and its something we can laugh about.

BUT, That is how ENGRAINED these 'reflexes' can be.

The complete newbie, has no such engrained reflexes, and learning 'fresh' has a much easier time, getting to grips with what they have to do, and doing it, consistently.

Here, on road training, the fr
____________________
21:41:40 petalbriefs: look phil, I dont preach to you about bowling pins or whatever, so you stick to that and I'll stick to cars
21:38:18 Northern Monkey: chav lives in the garage with an almax on it
21:34:54 rhys99: My train got stuck in heavy traffic

[Ste]

You are a Learner-Rider. Aproach it with a completely open mind, as though you DONT know a thing.... and when you find out you do, use it to ask pertinant and sensible questions.

PRESUMPTION is the Mother of all Fuck Ups....

Yes, there is quite a lot of transferable experience from cars to bikes, but bikes are very much more demanding to ride than cars are to drive; veiw from the controls a lot different, AND we are HUGELY more vulnerable and at risk!

Trouble with teaching existing car drivers to ride a bike, is often that you tell them what to do, but in one ear, out the other, and they revert to 'Driving' as though they were in a car!

Silly one for you; toght car drivers on CBT, they have done everything they have been told, listened, carefully, asked sensible questions and I have had no qualms making the cut to take them out on the road after lunch for road training...

WHERE... fifteen yards from the gates of the college, at the first T-Junction.... they FALL OVER!

Why?

Well on the play-ground riding round cones, its all completely new, and unfamiliar, and they respond and do; just as if they were being given a ski-lesson, or tought to fly a hang-glider with absolutely no preconseptions, presumptions or previouse experience impinging on it....

But, ride off the play-ground, out the gate and faced with a white give way line, and a 'familiar' situation.... they do exactly what they have ALWAYS done in such a situation.....

Stop... sit still, like they would in a car, and forget to put thier bludy foot down to prop themselves up!

SERIOUSELY, it can be THAT bludy stoooopid!

Lots of other things car drivers do; they are far more 'mirror dependant' than we can be on bikes, and they tend NOT to use thier mirrors or do observations anywhere near as frequently as you need to on a bike.

This is another common previouse driver fault; they dont LOOK, they dont do the observations we need to on a bike, actually moving our heads and physically looking over our shoulders, and instead, automatically look for find and glance in the mirror, and no where near as often.

They also seem to ALWAYS forget to cancell thier indicators, becouse in cars auto-cancelling does it for them...

And very frustrating as an instructor riding along, following a student and the entire LESSON, you are constantly telling them the SAME THINGS over the radio.... "MOVE YOUR HEAD", "Cancel your Blinkers"... and they KNOW what they are doing 'wrong' and what they need to remember; its just that they are so USED to doing things the way they would in a car, instinct and engrained reactions take over.

'Doing DAS'.... this is a big problem. You get a couple of days on a bike, with a wally like me, nannying you around the roads, breathing false confidence into your ear constantly REMINDING you of these silly things you have forgotten, while you 'practice' for tests.

You are paying, a HUGE amount of money on a typical DAS course for NO MORE than the instructor being there, fullfilling the requirement to provide Radio Supervision to let you be on a 'big-bike; with L-Plates, and trying to drill these faults out of you by 'rote'.

Stuff thats actually 'useful', the real telling you what you need to do; one to one instruction.... you get very little of.

Training conventionally, on your own 125; you do CBT, get a bike, wobble about on it, try not to fall off, and learn pretty much by your own mistakes until you feel confident enough to take tests, is similarly frought; you learn only what DOESN'T work, and you dont get fed anything to help you do anything different, and possibly better, and its learning the hard and often painful way.

One of the best ways to learn is on your own 125, though; with weekly lessons.

Do CBT, go away, practice, come back. Get an hour or two of an instructor telling you what you are doing wrong, what you are doing right; giving you tips, and then sending you home, for a week to practice as MUCH as you like, on your own.

For the same number of paid for hours of training; FAR more of it is actually giving you USEFUL preparation to ride a bike; and you are NOT paying some-one to nanny you, and merely fullfil legal requirement to let you be on the road while you practice.

Intensive DAS courses, danger is, that so much information, provided in so short a space of time, you WONT get as 'much' useful know-how from it; and half of what you do get will be forgotten just as quick, and of what remains with so little real saddle time to give it meaning, it wont make much sense.

Consequently; a lot of the focus of training on an intensive DAS is on drillin out by 'rote' silly mistakes like observations & cancelling indicators, and providing 'Test-Tricks' to put on a performance for the examiner to get you a licence, RATHER than giving you good useful tools to be a decent, safe competant rider.

THEN leaves you out on your own for the very first time, WITHOUT that voice in your ear picking up on anything you might do wrong... on a pretty large and powerful machine that COULD get you into a lot of trouble very quickly.....

EITHER, thinking becouse you have done the course and passed the test, and 'know it all' until falling off proves otherwise... OR you are left suddenly bereft of support, with a jumble of confused ideas about what you were tought, and no guiding voice in your ear, thinking "Shit! WHAT DO I DO!"

THAT is the 'Danger' of DAS, or specifically intensive DAS courses.

DAS does NOT mean that you HAVE to do an intensive three, four or five day course.

ALL DAS is is the provisions in the test scheme for you to:-
1/ ride a 'big-bike' on L-s under radio supervision of qualified instructor.
2/ take the motorcycle tests on such a 'big-bike'
3/ and if passing tests be awarded full unrestricted A-Group licence without probationary restrictions of any sort.

Thats ALL it is; its NOT a course. I could ride my 750 to the test centre, with you on the pillion; slap L-Plates on the thing, and give you a letter saying that you had my permission to ride it; to show the examiner along with your cars insurance cert that says "And Any other Vehicle with owners Concent" so that you are insured to ride the thing, and you could Do your test on it and if you passed ride the fucker home!

You do NOT have to do a DAS course, you do NOT have to do an intensive DAS course.

IF you want a 'good' grounding for riding bikes; then I WOULD seriousely reccomend looking to get a 125 to use purely as a learning excersize.

Doing weekly lessons after CBT on your own 125, as said, you get BEST 'value' from the paid for instruction, and you can practice to your hearts content between times.

Riding unsupervised, you WONT get so ear-peace dependant, and will build confidence a LOT quicker.

AND you will, 'engraine' riding habbits to instinct the same as you have almost certainly done driving a car, and be FAR less likely to make or continue to make those silly car-driver reversions, like forgetting obs, or cancelling blinkers.

You'll also catch yourself out, doing 'life saver'; shoulder checks in teh car, and having any rear seat passengers wondering why you are turning around to look at them before changing lanes on the motorway..... but Hey, thats just bonus, you almost certainly take more from bike riding away that will make you a better car driver, IF only from the amount of observation you will do, and the more you will actually consider of what you see!

So, training on your own 125; costs are always uncertain, BUT training in this way; you will tend to get much better grounding and be much better prepared as a rider, and typically, six, eight, twelve weeks? all you ought to need to get to, and pass test standard and get a licence in your pocket for it.

You can then sell on the 125, and all in; costs of getting to that point; can be similar to doing an intensive DAS course. All circumstance dependant; but buying a bike and selling on, taking some depreciation and the running costs of that bike, including the insurance; hard to say whether overall it will be more or less expensive than doing a DAs straight off.

What is pretty sure is that for the same money you will get a much better preparation for post test riding; AND if you struggle, or dont pass tests straight off, it will almost certainly prove cheaper than DAS courses, where you pay a premium for a school booked test slot, both tests 'ahead booked' so the date and time of Mod 1 and Mod 2 fall in the course time; where if you fail Mod 1, you have a three day wait before you can re-apply for a new date, and will LOOSE the Mod 2 slot and the test fee.

Even just having to pay for repeat test fees; at around £125 a pair booked through the course, rather than individually for £15.50 for a Mod 1 Slot and £75 for a Mod 2, it can be expensive to fuck up. IF as many schools do, the tests are bundled in the course cost, and you have to pay for an entire new course, then it can get VERY fucking expensive....

So have a think, I'm not telling you what to do, I'm JUST explaining the options and telling you that you DO have options.

BTW... weekly training on a 125 would again NOT preclude you testing under DAS for an unrestricted licence.

As said, under DAS I could 2up you to test on my 750 and let you get on with it; no need for you to use a school.

Schools can be useful though, and if you train on a 125, If you want, nothing stopping you poay a few extra quid to do a DAS conversion lesson, for maybe an extra £20 to try out the big bike; then fork out maybe £70 for a 'Prep & Test' session; instructor supervising & coaching you on the trip to the test centre to use the school DAS bike for the test.

Doing the test on your OWN 125 though; has the advantage you may be more familiar and comfortable on it;l and it can save you pennies, and you dont need an instructor to nanny you to test centre.

Test on your own 125, you STILL get a full A-Group licence, and you DONT have to take any more tests after.

ONLY impediment with testing on a 125 is that doing so, you get a two year power probation. Means you can still ride any capacity bike you like, BUT it has to have an engine that makes no more than 33bhp or be restricted so it cant.

JUSt becouse you are over 21 DOES NOT mean you HAVE to do DAS, and the restricted licence is NOT a waste of time, or any less of a licence than what you get for doing DAS and DONT let any Riding school try and 'sell' you an expensive intensive DAS scheme on that kind of bull-shit!

33bhp is an awkward power limit; and does restrict the bikes you could jump straight onto that are naturally 33bhp complient.

But plenty of machines, are easily and cheaply restricted... and again DONT believe the bollox that you have to have a certificate of restriction and that they cost £200 and shit like that.

Ultimately; law merely says that it is up to YOU to ensure that the bike you ride is in accordance with your licence entitlement, and no more. How you do it is up to you.

What insurance companies may or may not ask for is entirely different matter; but again, there is no LEGAL obligation for you to have some kind of restriction certificate, and nothing stoppng you going to an insurance company that dont ask for one.

33bhp? Its not a lot, but its good enough to get a motorcycle up to over 100mph, and frequently do so faster than even pretty quick cars, thanks to the high power to weight ratio.

It IS enough to have a lot of fun with, and plenty for an early rider newby, it does NOT need to be a major impediment to enjoying your riding.

And after two years; restriction automatically drops off, and you can have any bike you like, just as if you had passed under DAS rules.

So, onto suitable bikes; for a newbie; either straight off DAS or stepping up from a 125, its NOT about size, its about 'Nature'.

As said, a 33bhp bike is good enough to break tripple figure speeds and get there plenty fast enough to scare most car drivers.

A 60bhp bike will normally break the two-mile a minute mark, and provide pretty lairy acceleration to it, compared to a car.

I have a CB750, its a 75bhp 'street-bike'. Its old, built in 1993, and its design is even older, having an engine taken from the 1984 CBx750 and DE-TUNED by 20bhp down to the 75bhp it has, and put in a chassis of even older 'twin-shock' technology, dating back to the 1960's & 70's. It is a LONG way from a cutting edge modern sports bike!

But, it will run very very eagerly to 125mph, and it will out accelerate all but the most spirited 'fast-cars' on its way there; and for me, and experienced rider, it still has more than enough capability to chuck around in the twisties and ride round numpties on the latest hot-snot sport-600's.

It is, by modern perceptions a 'boring' motorcyle, but I can tell you that even THAT is more than enough to be pretty bludy exiting!

And out the crate; they are quite a good 'newbie' bike. They are soft and forgiving, and give you a lot of feed-back about what you are doing, right OR wrong, that will help you develop your skills as a new rider, and in providing that feed-back and warning when you are doing stuff wrong, give you the 'clues' that will help you know WHEN to back off, and can keep you safe.

More focused, more competant bikes, will NOT give you the same sensations or feed-back, and will let you ride into danger not KNOWING how close to the edge you are.

Straight off DAS, a bike like the old CB750, reasonable enough starting point as any; and a bike you need NOT grow out of. I like mine. Its not THE most capable bike in the worlds, but in allround capability, to go have fun in the twisty lanes, tackle motorway blasts, load up with pillion or luggage and spend long hours in teh saddle; an awful lot of 'biking' for not a lot of money!

Mine cost me less than £500 in slightly shabby state; about a grand, to make it the way I like, not far off what I could have paid for something pretty tidy show room standard. And it costs me £80 a year to insure, against £120 a year for the CB125 or £150 for the DT125!

Bandit, is a similar bike; 150cc smaller and unfortunately in the popular and slightly more highly loaded 600 insurance group, and while not such a bad choice, personally I think that its slightly more highly tuned motor makes it a bit more tiring to ride and can urge a newbie to try too hard, wanting to get at the power and use the revs. But small gripe/

Plenty of other alternatives, including the JX600 Diversion; though TBH I would as easily reccomend a 'sensible DAS newbie the 900 version.

But I normally reccomend the commuter twins as the first big bike; whether on 33bhpo restricted licence, or straight off DAS, they are a very useful stepping stone.

Two cyclinders, they are, if needed more cheaply and easily restricted. Less refined twin pot motor tends to give more clues what its doing, and runs out of breath at the top end if you thrash it, where the fours will often rev eagerly to higher rmp, and encourage you to exploit the power they have up there.

Slighly less 'capable' than the 'fours' they offer a load more of this 'feed-back' and will generally offer a lot of learning for the small performance sacrifice, and give you a lot of opportunity to get into trouble... just not QUITE so blisteringly quick!

My VF1000, by modern standards, a bike that is not very powerful and is hugely over weight, would accelerate from 50 to 80 in less than two seconds. Damn thing could drop the quarter mile from a stand still, in under 11seconds with a terminal velocity of about 135, in the road tests. But in the intermediete roll ons, thiong could be lethal. Even with umpety years experience behind me, filtering onto motorway slips, or coming off roundabouts, that 'half second glance' over my shoulder to check gaps, and I coule be piking into the back of a truck doing 60mph, doing near twice that speed!

CB750, again, NOT a hugely powerful bike by modern standards, still runs similar risk, but, more likely to only be getting a tad close at about 90!

Commuter twin, A Suzuki GS500; Kawasaki ER5, or GPz500s; Honda CB500 or Suzuki SV650...

SV is a 75bhp bike, as stock; modern perception is its a bit 'wet' compared to 'real' sportsbikes, but lighter and more nimble than my 750,m still a bike that will see you touching silly speeds a tad TOO easily, at least in full power form. Others are all parallel twins. GPz500s is probably the most powerful and sporty of them, with about 60bhp, and a close second for performance to an SV. Others are all more comuter orientated, and offer a bit either side of 50bhp, as standard.

This is 'enough' to cut your teeth on, and fast enough to give you an idea of the things I'm talking about, without being SO far out of the realms of performance envelope of other traffic as it will give you a mind warp trying to get your head round it.

And a few months, a year, maybe even two, on a bike like that, would be very good 'grounding' to let you get on anything more 'adventurtouse' and not be to awed by it.

You would also be able to apreciate whetever you got after a lot more, from the comparison, as well as get more from it, from teh experience gained on the twin.

And if you decide NOT to get a 125 and do weekly training, and dive in with an intensive DAS course, (often schools just dont offer the courses to make anything else a viable option) I would THOROUGHLY reccomend a bike like this be the limit of your initial aspirations; and imedietly post DAS, even though you have a licence, use a commuter twin, as a first bike, to 'learn' on, and get what you have missed in early riding doing it on a 125, and perhaps back your early riding with some 'refresher' lessons, and after maybe an advanced course, before looking at the big-fours.

Point is; lots of options; dont dive in; dont presume on anything from driving a car let alone what as a car driver you percieve to be a 'fast' car, aproach it with an open, and pragmatic mind set, and try and make the options available work the BEST they can for you.

Oh, and as one last thought for you..... 'Fast' is all reletive. Fast cars, can be pretty thrilling and a lot of fun, and 170mph from an exec saloon can seem pretty excerssive and very very fast.

By comparison, the 150mph you see stated as the top speed of a modern sports 600, might not seem all that fast; while the mere 105mph listed as the maximum velocity of a humble commuter twin is likely to be scoffed at, as less than a diesel people mover....

Thing is; that people mover will take an age to get over 90. CB500 wont exactly romp away to its top speed, but it will still get there a damn site faster than you expect.

And unlike cars, where you dont OFTEN get the road room to use what performance they offer; too much traffic, roads too tight and twisty and narrow. Bike's width and ability to filter. Its manouverability, and its speed of response means that the performance is DOES have, is available, and CAN be exploited an AWFUL lot more often.

But the buck stops when it goes wrong; fast car has four fat tyres, abs, traction control, and will do a lot to save you from doing something too daft to begin with, and protect you pretty well curtecty of crunple zones and ipact protectiuon ssystems, when it doesn't.

Bikes DONT... it's YOU, out there, in the breeze in DIRECT contact with the enviroment...

If you really enjoy your fast car, think long about it, becouse an AWFUL lot of drivers, after even a merely moderately fast bike, suddenly realise that the car, REALLY isnt't all THAT exiting, and it can KILL thier enthusiasm and enjoyement of them!

Its swings and roundabouts whichever way; 125's are very 'useful' as a training tool, in that if you DO have the right approach and use them as a training tool, you can, REASONABLY safely exploit the provision for unsupervised L-Plating to get best value training & early miles experience.

I agree that larger bikes can be a bit 'easier' to ride. Extra stability, more flexible power, more mass, will damp clumsy gear changes and resist nervouse steering input..

But bigger is a generalisation, and it doesn't always work; something like an R6 is barely any heavier than some 125's and WONT be easier to ride, becouse it doesn't have the weight associated with bigger bikes, or the stability, especially at slow speed.

125, actually being HARDER to ride, or at least more demanding, is a useful training tool to instill some basics.

Where something like a GS500 is heavy and soft, and stable, and has a nice tractable spread of power, so that you dont need to work the gear-box so hard, and with that tractible power, if you habg the change too long, you aren't so likely to fall out the power, and mass will keep the bike rolling and smooth it all out a bit for you and flatter your riding.

EN125 is no where NEAR as forgiving. Hang your change from 1st to 2nd too long, and by the time you have clogged it into 2nd, what little momuntum you had traveling at 1/3 the speed, and with half the mass, means you've stopped moving before you have the clutch back out!

Likewise with steering input; with less inherent stability, yanking the bars too hard, to fast, bike twitches and wobbles and lets yu KNOW that you are making an arse of it.

So if you can get the 'basics' cracked on a tiddler and make good swift, smooth 'progress'... WHEN you step up onto a 500, its a 'doddle'...

But if you only EVER ride the 500? you may never actually get such an inate 'feel' for the balence, and stepping from a bike like the GS that will flatter a less than great newbie, onto something more 'flighty', you have a 'hole' in your skillset, that you have NEVER had to develop such an inate delicate 'touch'.... but instead of trying to aquire it on a bike that is a bit nervouse becouse its small, light and under-powered.... your trying to 'learn' all over, on something that has actually be 'tuned' to be that nervouse.

On that basis, time on a tiddler is not a waste of time, especially right at the start.

Two years? Length of a CBT cert. I wouldn't say you need ALL that time on one. Maybe not. Just a bit more than the first 15 minutes of CBT Playground during an intensive DAS course!

Three months? All it 'needs' take to get a licence the 125 way, with weekly lessons, for a pretty solid 'foundation' and preparatory skill-set. 'reasonable' to my mind.

Only thing limiting you to a 125, is not passing the bike tests to get a full licence, like wot you had to do before you were allowed to drive a car.

125's are good for two things; passing tests, and IF you are as miserly minded as can be, beating bus-fare travel prices; though even then; if you are really deturmined to travel cheap, you'll go further for your money on a full licence, on a slightly bigger bike, not paying the 'Learner-Loading' on either a 'learner-licence' or learner legal bike.

Give you a hint here; with a full licence my CB750, a 120mph, 75bhp bike is £80 a year to insure. Even with a full licence, CB125 costs £110.

CBT is NOT a qualification, its the 'first lesson' how to ride a bike, and that LEARNER LICENCE it validates is exactly that; so you can LEARN and practice for TESTS to get a full licence;

NOT so you can wobble around, without a clue, hoping not to kill yourself or any-one else, an unqualified hazard to all, for ever and a day, NOT getting up to grade and proving it, and getting the licence that's the 'key' to basically anything you want from biking.

125 'Cruisers'?

They DONT WORK.

They may look like a little harley; but they are a complete and utter waste of time and money!

As a training & test tool, they are worse then hopless. Ergamonics of the riding possition DONT give you best control over the bike, which has 'chopper' geometry and balence that make it about as 'nimble' as an elephant in a discount store, when it comes to doing the kind of test excersises demanded by the modern tests.

Seriousely; I have put a Honda CBR1100RR Super-Blackbird, hyoer-sports bike, or an ST1100 Pan-European Maga-Tourer full dressed with barn door fairing and paniers through the CBT test cones with less 'effort' than the couple of 125 cruisers I have tried it on!

They really are barge like and NOT a great place to start your riding career, filling it with confidence!

As for on the road; well.... about the only thing that they have in common with propper cruisers, is they are 'slow'.

BUT, unlike propper crsuiers, which to my mind start at the 'baby' Yamaha Virago with its 535cc engine..... they dont go slow becouse of big, softly tuned engines that have low down grunt to waft you along with least effort.

No, they have the same buzzy little things as other little bikes, that need the nuts reving off them and three gear changes to get them to 30mph..... only lugging around an abundance of chrome and fenders, they take even LONGER to do it, because they tend to be heavier.

Paddling the gear-box, to make them move, and working hard to get them to go where you want, is to my mind completely the OPPOSITE of what a 'real' cruiser ought to be; relaxed, laind back stress free riding.....

And these things, for all the chrome, just do not do that.

All they do, is ask you to pay an awful lot more money, to get something that LOOKS like a Harley, to NOT do either what a cruiser should do, OR a Learner-Legal.....

And as an 'ecconomy' bike to get to and from on? Yeah, by dint of being slow that CAN be pretty frugal; but paying a premium to get that ecconomy you could get paying LESS for a regulation learner commuter, that does the same job better, makes NO SENSE what so ever to me.

AND if you USE a 125 for what its best at..... GETTING A LICENCE....

Then you can have something like a Virago 535, JUST as cheaply, that you DONT have to hustle through test cones, that DOES 'Cruise' and remarkably is actually likely to cost you LESS to run that a 'toy' cruiser' bought becouse it 'looks' like something bigger.... but fitted with an L-Plate just makes you look like any othet twit on an L-Plate, only a slightly more tittish one with poor taste and even less of a clue about biking!

And you wanted us to be 'gentle'?

Sorry.... not happening!

But damn sight softer on you bursting your bubble here and now, than letting you learn the hard way!

Get a regulation Learner-Commuter; get a licence with it; which is what the Learner licence is there for; THEN when you know something and have proved you can ride; go get whatever takes your fancy, and meets your needs, and if Cruisers still apeal; Yamaha 535 Virago is the defacto 'My First Cruiser' and hard to beat.

Meanwhile; here and now; Yamaha YBR125, is the defacto 'LEarner-Commuter' and again, is a pretty hard allround package to best.

Or go get your toy-harley, and a cut off, to play 'Sons of Anarchy'... and look to every other biker like the Milky-Bar kid does to John Wayne, as long as it has the L-Plates!

FIRST: caution. Beware the CG125, victim of its own reputation.
Idea 'you cant go wrong with a CG, indestructible, them is', is grossly exaggerated. They are tough little bikes, but they wear out like any other, and will still bend when crashed hard enough, and 'low maintenance' doesn't mean NO maintenance.
Too many out there, that are ridden into the ground, and badly bodged, people expect far too much from, put far too little into, and STILL expect silly money for.
NEXT: The CG125 is the original; but gazzillions of cheap Chinky copies out there. CG's are 'worth money' old Chinky copies are NOT.
Is it a genuine CG? With so many CG Copies floating about, easy enough to dress one up as a genuine Honda; or 'ring' one as a genuine honda. OR simply fix up a real Honda with mostly Chinky copy parts.

In addition to the 'usual' checks to make sure its not a stolen or smashed bike, you need to make for any bike.

That's my starting point for a CG, and on the whole, given that the pool of decent bikes is deteriorating, and the prices are actually holding strongly, to the point that at the moment; there are a lot 'safer' places to go look for 'cheap' 125, I tend to reccomend avoiding the model.

BUT; that one; as said, Snowie asked what I thought, and if it might be worth a punt for her lad.

So, £475, its priced to sell. It's not daftly over priced like so many, BUT reading the detail; its not taxed or tested, or ride away ready, so it oughtn't really be worth more than £300 as a 'fixer-upper'. Ad suggests its an easy fix; just needing a bit of 'cosmetic' work to get it through an MOT, and hints, that you could get it OTR 'cheaply'... well, £30 for an MOT, £25 for a V5, £16 for tax, and you have £75 JUST to tick the boxes to make it roadable, even if you dont have to spend a penny on it... Start adding a few quid for new keys or lock sets, and ACTUALLY it's not going to be THAT cheap, even if it doesn't have anything majorly needing attention, like the brakes overhauling, the chain & sprox replacing, headrace bearings renewing or fork-seals doing, or 'niggly' electrical issues that need sorting, in consequence of theft attempt or damage.

What can you get a 'good' CG for? That age, one in tidy standard condition, they do fetch a premium, and they get snapped up at £750 ready to ride, and seen people asking near a grand for ones that are not that great.

But gives some 'idea' pay the £475 ask price, plus delivery, because you cant ride it home, chuck realistically around £200 at it to make it road-able, and you have spend the same as would buy you something 'ready to ride'.... So big risk for small bargain.

Looks like it MIGHT be a genuine CG; has the right engine covers, has a reg no for a real Honda, but lack of log book, doesn't inspire confidence; Pete's DVLA check suggests that the log-book is 'suspended' as a Cat write off.... could be CAT-C that only needs an MOT to 'clear', BUT you would have to do the work and get it through an MOT first, before you could get the V5.... risky.

Take one Cat-A'd CG from a salvage yard, one cheap Chinese Fake-away, and attach engine cases, VIN plate and Number-Plate, and your £200 heap of junk suddenly becomes a desirable £500 bike....

My aprasisal is it's too expensive, and there's too much 'risk'. to be worth a seriouse punt.

I would want to see it in the metal, I would want to crawl all over it looking for 'tells', to gain confidence, looking for the hidden faults.

I might NOT walk away; but if it checked out; risk vs reward, scrubbed up nice, its only a £750 bike, and at that asking price there just isn't the 'margin' to make it worthwhile.

IF, inspection gave me more confidence; top dollar, its only worth £300, as it's sat, a 'Spares or Repairs' project without paperwork, and I would be offering a derisory £200, for the thing. Personally I wouldn't want to go over £250 for it.

And THAT is after asking the initial dum question; do you WANT a project? Can you DO a project? Lots of people nievely believe that they can fix bikes up easily and cheaply; but look at the workshop & show and tell for the reality! Projects take time; space, effort; and always cause SOME hassle. You NEED to know you have the tools and facilities to take one on; AND as importantly support of people around you who aren't going to give you grief the whole time, moaning about that pile of junk on the patio and the oily finger prints on the light switches!

If it's close; if you are clued up; if you are prepared for what getting it to road will entail; you have the money to cover the immedietly guessable costs; plus that to cover any unforeseen hassles; dont expect it to happen in a week; and are prepared to accept the risk that its likely to end up costing you as much or more than a bike you could buy ready to ride..... it MAY be worth persuing, IF you can get bloke to accept a more realistic offer, that gives you more 'margin'...... BUT you will be bidding against a lot of far more nieve and optimistic buyers who are likely to give him what he's asking, kidding themselves that THEY can get that thing 'on the road' for just £50.....

Right; 125's are good for two things;

Cheap bus fare beating wheels for the economy conciouse, two whom style & performance take second place to hard cash considerations.

Training & Test tools to be used to obtain a full licence & open the door to ANY capacity of bike, of any style or level of performance.

Given that 125's tend to be expensive to insure due to so many being ridden and crashed by high risk, Learners or early riders, and nicked by teenage scroats; and few return such spectacular mpg as many hope, and running costs of the more sporty or posey can, all up be higher than on a 'big-bike'...

the 'Bus-fare Beating' ecconomy of a 125, is often only there for those REALLY ardent to find it and accept the compromise of very limited performance & 'utiliterian' style...

NOW: - Lets break down your wants and needs here a little and see what we can do.

And I'm going to start with this idea of 'a little green-laning' now and then.

First of all, what do you know about Green-Laning? As you dont have a CBT yet, I'm going to guess you have never done it,. least wise on a bike.

Do you know how many miles of 'unsurfaced public right of way, with vehicular access' we actually have in this country?

I'll give you a clue; its measured in HUNDREDS of miles nationally, compared to a tarmac network measured in tens of thousands of miles. It ENT a lot; though some areas are better endowed than others.

Next; do you know how to FIND and status check lanes you can ride?

And do you know what to expect, if you tried?

I can tell you here and now; its FAR from non stop cross country riding, like living a Charlie & Ewan episode......

Most lanes in this country are now so well graded in the more 'used' districts they are no more interesting to ride than any surfaced country road with a spew of gravel on the top.

Others, are so short as you would have more fun trying to set up a grass track round your back lawn.

And most are hardly more interesting than a farm track.

The persuit entails hours pouring over maps and checking web-sites to FIND tracks you can ride, and trying to patch together some sort of route joining together as many as you can to make a days riding.

That day will then consist of possibly eight hours in the saddle; six and a half of them will be riding tar-top between trails..... an hour will be spend pouring over the maps and scouring hedgrows looking for the actual lane start..... and about forty five minutes MIGHT actually be decent dirt-riding.

Does this sound SO much 'fun' as to be worth the compromises, and 'costs' you want to put on this bike you want, for that 'occassional' bit of 'Green-Laning'?

Bike for the gig is a Yamaha DT125; its common enough to be easy to live with, and proven it's capability over the years.

For that 'capability' you will pay approximately 50% more on insurance than a 'mundane' commuter. The model of bike gets loaded, for being a high risk.

Bikes with knobly tyres carry a higher theft risk; even if you insure one Third Party Only to avoid the insurers having to accept that risk, the 'base' premium is still loaded by the overall model risk.

The DT is loaded higher still, because its a two-stroke, and more often tuned, more sporty, and often crashed.

My 15bhp/75mph DT125, the 'classic' air-cooled 1970's model, is actually MORE to insure than my 75bhp/125mph Honda CB750.....

It ALSO uses more fuel...... it does 'about' 60mpg and requires two stoke oil to be added to that at about an extra 6p/l of petrol..... And that DROPS when off-roading.

And 'good' as my DT is; as an off-roader its pretty crap. I have a Montesa Cota comp-trials bike; THAT is a propper off-roader. For the road, I have the CB750 and a CB125 for pottering about. And again, the DT isn't a patch on either on tarmac.

Its a jack of two trades, master of neither; FUN, but it's compromised wherever you take it, and an expensive indulgence for me, an experienced rider, who CAN make use of it, and by dint of age and experience not get raped on insurance, or have to sustain the running costs using it as every day sole means of transport.

So; lets go back; needs and wants.

What do you NEED this bike to do? Is it a Bus-fare-dodger, or training wheels, or is it a week-end toy?

On CBT... first priority is to get a licence and get rid of that self imposed impediment to getting a lot more biking for your budget.

On that score, an on-off road bike, and notions of going green-laning, are not particularly great.

Learners fall off; and bent bikes dont get you through tests very well.

On dirt; learners fall off more. Shit, I've been riding dirt thirty more years than I care to remember I STILL fall off!

But straightening the bikes half the fun for me; and I dont have to use the bike for anything else. I have enough of them I can shove it under a cover and sort it out as and when I can be bothered or can find the money, and use one of the others or the car in the mean time.

If you need that bike to be 'available' and in a presentable enough condition to not get an examiner cringing for a test apointment; going out to bend it before hand, probably not the best idea.

While, IF its only a passing notion for something you MIGHT, only do 'occassionally', and dont really know much about to begin with....

Is choosing a bike that is more expensive than you can afford or are prepared to pay, to buy, insure and run, ANd which is less than ideal for the other tasks you may have of it; like getting about commuting, getting some training in on, and doing some tests REALLY worth the compromise....

If pennies are important FORGET off-roading, its a bad idea. Get a CG125, or a YBR 125, cheap, regulation learner commuter, the tool for THAT job, use it for whats intended; get tests & full licence with it...

THEN with THAT in your pocket; door is open to loads more possibilities.

bikes over 125 can be cheaper to insure, and in the 126-400cc range can often be lower; in that bracket the 'loading' from something with knobly tyres CAN be a lot easier to bear.

Meanwhile, haing got your licence; you are released from having to 'preserve' the bike for training & tests, and you ought by this point to know a bit more; and green-laning MAY be worth sacrificing some stuff for.

BUT.... first thing is tests, and bottom line is you dont get owt for nowt, and if you want the 'fun' of an off roader on top of the value of a mundane commuter-learner... you got to pay for it. So up the anti and get it, or lower your expectations and aspirations and do with out the add-on.

From where I'm standing it REALLY isn't worth the extra, but depends how much you THINK its worth really, or what compromises you are prepared to make elsewhere....

Concentrate on ONE thing at a time, and the FIRST thing is getting your licence.

How do I get a Licence?

The most accurate source of information on this topic is probably to be found from; "Riding motorcycles and mopeds" on the UK 'Directgov' website. But it is often difficult to follow! What is offered here, is then for guidance.

There are two KINDS of UK Licence, a 'Provisional' Licence or 'Learner-Licence' and a 'Full' Licence.

Any-One 16 or over may hold a Provisional licence. (Each entitlement 'category' though has its own age eligibility. You may only really ride a moped at 16 years old. At 17 you may have either motorbike or car. You don't need to pass any tests, just fill in the forms and send some pass-port photo's and payment to DVLA and they send it back.

This is issued to allow you to 'Practice' for tests. Once you have passed a DSA Driving qualification, be it for a moped, a motorcycle, a car or a tractor even, you send off your test-pass certificate and are awarded a Full UK Driving licence. BUT it is ONLY a 'full' licence for THAT category of vehicle you have passed tests. It REMAINS a 'Provisional' licence for all categories you have NOT qualified for. (Ie: If you hold a Full licence, for a car, you shouldn't need to apply for another licence to ride a motorcycle!)

The Provisional Licence, however doesn't really let you drive or ride very much. Provided so you may 'practice' for tests, it imposes a lot of restrictions on where and when you may drive or ride. And the main one is that until you have passed the DSA Test, you may ONLY ride or drive while under supervision of qualified instructor.

There is but ONE exception to this, and that is for motorcyclists, who, due to legacy laws from the days when supervising a learner rider by radio was not practical, are allowed to ride either a moped, or a 'Restricted; Learner-Legal' motorcycle up to 125cc and 14.5bhp, whilst displaying L-Plates; but you must not carry passengers (pillions) nor use motorways. AND provisional Entitlement has to be 'Validated' by completing an approved CBT course and obtaining the completion certificate.

What is CBT?

CBT is Compulsory Basic Training. TRAINING, it is not, repeat, NOT a 'Test'. Simply means you have had the FIRST LESSON!

It is NOT a riding qualification; it doesn't mean you have 'earned' your 'learner-licence', it doesn't mean you are a competent rider, and it does NOT teach you 'everything' you may need to know to be able to pass the actual licence tests!

At the end of it, IF you have reached a 'satisfactory' (very low!) standard of competence throughout the course, you are awarded your DL196, or CBT (Completion) Certificate, that validates the provisional entitlement of your licence, that lets you START riding on the roads, unsupervised, on a 'Learner-Legal' Motorcycle, for up to two years.

I go into a lot more about CBT & what you do, and how it is organised, in Tell me more about CBT?, so keeping it brief, here. The Course is designed so that an average student ought to be able to complete the course in a day, and be able to start riding, RELATIVELY safely. (Though depending on how much you have to learn, and how long it takes to master the exercises, SOME students may have to come back for 'further' training. They do NOT 'fail' CBT, they merely do not 'complete' the course to satisfactory standard)

IT'S YOUR FIRST LESSON

As such, before you invest ANY money in a bike, or gear, or 'anything', its a very good way to have a go, and see if you actually LIKE riding a bike. It ISN'T something for every-one, and some people struggle, and decide after that biking really isn't for them. Though, MOST I have to say, usually leave their CBT fired with enthusiasm and even more eager than when they started.

IT'S NOT A TEST

So, you DO NOT have to practice for it; you do NOT have to do ANYTHING much before hand; just turn up and do, and if you have any questions; ASK THEM! That is what the course is for. It is your introduction to biking.

Its a Day-Out, doing a new thing. When you book, you ought to be given some advice on what you'll need. Some schools will provide pretty much everything; bike, helmet, gloves, water-proofs. Some even offer lunch! However, 'School' rider-wear is often not that err... 'nice'... and most people prefer to buy and bring their own 'kit' before hand. Again, I offer advice on this in Tell me more about CBT?, but potted version is talk to the school, ASK what you should bring. Probably, "Crash-Helmet, Gloves, Lunch, Common sense, and wear 'sensible' out-door clothing, and check the weather forecast before you dress!

CBT is to help you get a bit clued up, and we TRY and make it fun. So DON'T worry about it. Its just a day out, playing with motorbikes. Your first lesson; You don't NEED to know anything about them before you begin, and it WONT make you an expert in a day, but it will give you a good start.

DO I Have to Do CBT?

YES!

OK, actually, there are a few exceptions. BUT WHAT THE HECK! If you have to ask, then YES YOU DO!

Generally ANY new rider will have to complete a CBT course to gain their DL196 form, to validate the entitlement of their provisional licence to ride on the road.

If you check the Directgov website; there are some confusing exceptions and exemptions; some drivers have exemptions under what are known as 'Granddad-Rights' because they gained provisional entitlement before CBT was 'invented' (circa 1990 ISTR). There is a raft of convolutions around moped licences for car licence holders that get quite confusing too.

BUT, ultimately, if you want to ride a powered-two-wheeler.. that's instructor speak for a moped, motorbike or scooter, by the way, on the roads... JUST do the ruddy course!

If you DON'T by dint of one of these wonderful 'exemptions' ACTUALLY need the Certificate? Well, what the heck. Damn site better to have the form and NOT need it, than have to argue about it with some half clued up beurocrat that expects to see it!

Meanwhile JUST for the sake of; the course IS a good start, and it WILL teach you something, and that 'something' could just be the one thing that saves your life, OR points on your licence, OR a painful and or expensive accident!

I used to teach CBT courses, I ought to 'Know it all' you would hope! Well, I sat in on my Girlfreind's CBT course last year, and it wasn't SUCH a vital detail, but I picked up some hints and tips on motorcycle maintenance, an easier way to do something, and some suggestions about looking after my crash-helmet and avoiding 'glare' on the visor. We can ALL learn something new!

Its a VERY worth-While course, for ANY-ONE starting out riding a motorbike, or coming back to riding one after some years break.

So JUST 'do-It'!

I don't see the point in getting a licence; why should I bother?

The Provisional Licence Validated by CBT is NOT a 'Licence-to-Ride' its a 'learner's permit', a chance to get some practice so you can take the tests and get the 'Proper' Licence.

Every OTHER motorised road-user HAS to pass their tests BEFORE they are allowed on the road, unsupervised. Fact that motorcycles are the exception is actually rather bizarre, given that motorcycles are the mort dangerous form of motorised transport, and unsupervised L-Platers the MOST likely to crash!

The FULL Motorcycle Licence is your PASSPORT to ALL biking has to offer & ONCE you have it, you have it for LIFE!

Well, with the qualification, that during the first two years, under the new drivers act, you don't get it revoked, or after that, suspended by being an arse! Other than that; once you have the entitlement its ON your licence as long as you hold it. JOB DONE. And....

it is a FULL Licence, NOT a 'Big-Bike' Licence!

No-One is going to take it off you, if you don't go out and buy a bike over 200cc within six months of getting it or anything! You can ride a 'Small' bike on a Full-Licence same as you can a big one!

And, OK, you may have a hundred and one reasons NOT to think it's IMPORTANT enough to do as LONG as you can get out and ride a 125 on L-Plates without it, WHY bother? Just keep repeating CBT every two years.

I have heard EVERY single excuse for 'perpetual L-Plating' from perpetual L-Platers they can think of, and there is NO real valid reason for it. End of the day, boils down to Laziness, and ignorance. Or possibly JUST laziness, not being bothered to go find out the facts!

BUT, Lets hear a few of them out?

I only want a scooter to get to work. I don't want a big-bike. So why waste money on paying for tests?
I'm 18, I cant afford to insure a car, so I only want a bike, until I can afford to buy a car?
I only ride for fun, got an RS125 'full-power', and that's expensive enough to keep on the road; If I did tests I'd want an R6 or something, and I cant afford that, not for the miles I do!
I'm over 21, I cant afford to 'Do-DAS'

Yeah! an ALL to common attitude, amongst scooter riders. You buy a scooter because its CHEAP, so why spend money you DON'T have to! Tests cost money, and if you can get to work without them, why buy'em? Same with riding as a stop-gap until affording a car, and the more bizarre notion of a 'cheap' week-end 'Toy' bike. Almost all of them MONEY is a big part of the argument.

Well, IF you can afford to ride a bike, ANY bike, you can bludy well afford to take the sodding tests, mate!

The tests cost a mere £121.50 (as 2012) over and above CBT to let you wobble about an UNQUALIFIED hazard on the roads. Elsewhere I go into the costs of getting on the road, and if you can get a Learner-Legal Motorcycle, taxed, tested and road-worthy, afford to buy a helmet, insurance, and stick petrol in the ruddy thing, you will be doing damn well, to do so for under £1000. More realistically you will be looking at having to spend, £1500 - £2500 'all in'. £121.50 in THAT greater scheme of stuff is PEANUTS. And if you cant budget THAT right at the start, DON'T BOTHER even trying!

If you don't pass the bike tests within the first two years provided by your first CBT certificate? Well, you will have to repeat the CBT to extend your licence entitlement to carry on riding. THAT can be as expensive as simply doing the tests!

But WHY would you NOT take the tests? Either you are too lazy OR you don't think you are good enough to pass.

If you don't think you are good-enough to pass, WHAT THE FRIGG are you doing on the road?!?!?!?

Tests are there to set a basic level of competence, if you haven't got that, then you shouldn't be there. You are a DANGER to yourself and others!

Many DO seem to think that the tests are 'Very-Hard', but really, what they are asking you to show them is that you can ride around a few cones without falling over, and can ride on the road, in real traffic for forty minutes, not break any laws, or hurt any-one! If you are riding to and from work or college every day, you are PROBABLY already doing 90% of what they expect!

I only want a scooter to get to work. I don't want a big-bike. So why waste money on paying for tests?

See: I Only want a 'little' bike, It's not THAT dangerous, is it? Its NOT like I'm jumping straight on a loonie-big-bike!. You are not 'protected' in anyway, pretending to be a learner, riding a lightweight. Its JUST as dangerous, AND your economic argument's DO NOT hold water.

Repeating CBT every two years, is as expensive as doing the tests.

The Idea that a 'Learner-Legal' HAS to be 'Cheap' is also a fallacy. Yes they CAN return very good mpg, BUT; the actual bike is a LOT more expensive than it needs be JUST because it's learner legal. With a FULL licence you have access to the whole panoply of motorcycles, and where you will struggle to find a 'good' Learner-Legal for under £1000, you can get any number of VERY good bigger bikes for the same money.

BUT, for the super-tight economy-commuter, there is a very big 'bargain basement' of machines in the 'forgotten' capacity class from 150cc to 400cc; machines that often have hardly any more performance than a Learner-Legal, but only Full-Licence holders, most of whom having qualification to have a much more interesting machine, simply DON'T WANT!

These bikes, are often half the price or LESS than a similar 'Learner-Legal' machine, AND frequently an AWFUL lot less to insure. They cost no more to run, and frequently return as good mpg, sometimes even better.

So, idea that staying on L-Plates is saving you money is a fallacy. IF you wanted super-cheap wheels, the FULL-LICENCE, Is the pass-port NOT just to bigger, more powerful and more exiting motorcycles, but to ones that can save you EVEN more money.

I'm 18, I cant afford to insure a car, so I only want a bike, until I can afford to buy a car?

So TAKE the ruddy tests and EARN your road-space like any-one else then! As the Scooter-Commuter; you aren't saving any money wobbling about on L-Plates. Use some of that 'saving' you are making to get the ruddy tests! Its just LAZINESS not bothering, and laziness on a bike is NOT a good way to survive.

I'm over 21, I cant afford to 'Do-DAS'

So? Why do you THINK that because you're re over 21 you HAVE do 'Do-DAS'? MORE why do you think that to 'Do-DAS' you HAVE to spend some ridiculous amount of money on an 'Intensive DAS' Course?

This is shear ignorance. You DO NOT have to do a DAS course just because you are over 21. Go read the sections: What is 'DAS'? & Intensive DAS Courses' What's the score?

I only ride for fun, got an RS125 'full-power', and that's expensive enough to keep on the road; If I did tests I'd want an R6 or something, and I cant afford that, not for miles I do!

If you have a 'Full-Power' sports 125, you DON'T have a licence to ride the frigging thing to start with!

The Provisional Licence allows you to ride a bike up to 125cc and 14.5bhp. A Full-Power 'Sports' 125 probably makes something like 25bhp (though undoubtedly you will be convinced it HAS to make 33), and riding one, without a Full-Licence is NO DIFFERENT to riding a 250, or 400, 600 or 1000, you equally DON'T have the entitlement to ride!

It is NOT some bit of criminal 'genius'; it's not what 'every-one' does. Its not 'all part of biking', its certainly not 'expected'.

IT IS ILLEGAL

Got insurance on it? Well, implying that it is learner legal when it isn't, is insurance fraud. You are breaking MORE laws riding a 'cheat' 125 as you would be riding an R6 or whatever you really want, also without Licence or Insurance.....

If you are happy to break these laws, for the sake of the few pennies you probably aren't saving, given that Sports 125's often cost MORE to run than 600's or 750's..... Well, MORE fools logic. You may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb, WHY bother, for the sake of maybe 10-15mph more illegal speed! These bikes may be impressive compared to a 65mph commuter 125, but compared to a 160mph 600? They are STILL not 'quick' or impressive machines to ANY-ONe who knows what they are looking at!

GET THE LICENCE and you can ride that 125 LEGALLY, you could ride the bike you REALLY WANT, LEGALLY, and it will probably be 'Cheaper'! If not, certainly be other bikes that will be!

THE EXCUSES KEEP COMING - But the answer always remains the same. If you want to ride a motorbike, then GET A LICENCE!

All of the excuses get blown away eventually, and it boils down to laziness and ignorance. Its not saving you anything, and the 'Learner-Restrictions' are ENTIRELY self imposed.

If you are OLD ENOUGH to ride a motorbike, if you can AFFORD to ride a motorbike; you are old enough and rich enough to take the tests and have ANY bike you want and can afford, NOT merely a Learner-Legal!

ALL for the sake of taking the tests and getting the PROPER licence.

The Motorcycle Test, Licence Categories & Age Restrictions

To gain a FULL moped or motorcycle licence, there are three tests.

Motorcycle Theory/Hazard Perception

Module 1 'Off-Road' practical test

Module 2 'On-Road' practical test.

These tests are conducted by the Driving Standards Agency, not the school you did CBT with. But the School may offer training to help you pass them.

As from January 19th 2013, there are three 'test schemes'; one for each category of motorcycle licence entitlement, to be applied to the two practical tests, Mod 1 & Mod 2. Plus one for moped entitlement. (Both Practical Tests Mods1 & Mod 2 must be taken on the same class of motorcycle.)

Category AM = Moped

You must be at least 16 years to ride a moped, and to take the full moped licence tests.

You may, upon completion of CBT ride a moped on provisional licence entitlement, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger.

Test requires a vehicle conforming to the legal specifications of a 'Moped' (see:- What is a Moped?), briefly a 50cc motorcycle, that says 'Moped' on the Registration document! It may be any style of powered two wheeler, like a scooter or a sports-bike, it may be twist & go automatic or have gears; but it must be less than 50cc and not be capable of more than about 35mph.

Both tests must be taken, as for the motorcycle test, and The tests are identical to the motorcycle tests, though allowances are made for the lower performance of the vehicle; eg during the Mod 1 exercises, that normally require a serve and e-stop manoeuvre above proscribed speeds that a moped would not be expected to achieve.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Category P licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a moped, which must still conform to moped power, speed and weight restrictions. But without L-Plates and you may carry pillion passengers. Note:- Mopeds may NOT use motorways, irrespective of whether the rider has a full licence of any category. (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)



Category A1 = 'Light Motorcycle'

You must be at least 17 years to ride an A1 category 'Light Motorcycle', and to take motorcycle tests under the A1 test scheme.

You may, upon completion of CBT, ride an A1 / Learner-Legal motorcycle on provisional licence entitlement, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger, or use motorways.

Test requires a vehicle conforming to the 'Learner-Legal' Motorcycle ( see:- What is a 'Learner-Legal' Motorcycle?), Briefly a machine up to 125cc, with no more than 11Kw/14.5bhp power, but with minimum performance requirements for test; the machine must be over 120cc capacity and capable of 62mph. Again, the machine may be of any style; a scooter, commuter-bike, sports-bike, cruiser etc, and again, may have a twist & go automatic transmission or manual gears.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Catagory A1 licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a motorcycle of the same performance specification as is 'Learner-Legal' essentially still an 11Kw/14.5bhp 125cc machine, but without L-Plates. You may also carry pillion passengers, and if you wish, use motorways. (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)

Category AM (moped) entitlement is automatically awarded with A1 entitlement, if not already held.

Catagory A2 = 'Middleweight Motorcycle' / Restricted Licence

You must be at least 19 years to ride an A2 category 'Middleweight Motorcycle', and to take motorcycle tests under the A2 test scheme.

Provisional-Licence entitlement remains that you may, upon completion of CBT, ride an A1 / Learner-Legal motorcycle, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger, or use motorways.

You may, NOT however ride ANY motorcycle other machine, unsupervised, ahead of passing the full motorcycle test for higher groups (A2 or A3/Full A)

However, you MAY ride a machine compliant with A2 restrictions, on provisional entitlement, IF you are under supervision of a DSA approved Motorcycle Instructor, or DSA Motorcycle Examiner, whilst training or taking tests. (There is NO exemption to this to ride an A2 machine unsupervised to a motorcycle test)

Test requires a vehicle. of at least 395cc with a power output between 25 and 35 kW (33bhp and 46.6 bhp). No upper engine size limit, but the power to weight ratio must not exceed 0.2kW/kg and it must not be derived from a motorcycle of more than double its power. Again, the machine may be of any style; a scooter, commuter-bike, sports-bike, cruiser etc, and again, may have a twist & go automatic transmission or manual gears.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Catagory A2 licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a motorcycle of ANY engine capacity, but no more than 35Kw (approx 47bhp.) And may not have a power to weight ratio higher than 0.2Kw per Kg. The machine may be restricted from a model that manufacturers standard specifications claims more than 35Kw, but the standard model may not male more than 2 times the power required for restriction. (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)

After Passing tests, you do not need to display L-Plates. You may also carry pillion passengers, and if you wish, use motorways.

Category AM (moped) entitlement, and Category A1 (125 Only Motorcycle) entitlement, is automatically awarded with A2 entitlement, if not already held.

Category A or A3 = Unrestricted Motorcycle / Direct Access Scheme (DAS)

You must be at least 24 years to ride an unrestricted A category Motorcycle and to take motorcycle tests under the A3 / DAS test scheme. OR you must have held an A2 category licence for a minimum of 2 years. (So, if you pass A2 tests when you are 19-21, you can test again for DAS before you are 24, as long as you have held A2 at least 2 years)

Provisional-Licence entitlement remains that you may, upon completion of CBT, ride an A1 / Learner-Legal motorcycle, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger, or use motorways.

You may, NOT however ride ANY motorcycle other machine, unsupervised, ahead of passing the full motorcycle test for that group.

However, you MAY ride any machine on provisional entitlement, IF you are under supervision of a DSA approved Motorcycle Instructor, or DSA Motorcycle Examiner, whilst training or taking tests. (There is NO exemption to this to ride an A2 machine unsupervised to a motorcycle test)

Test requires a vehicle over 595cc with a power output of at least 40kw or (53.6bhp). From the end of 2013 the power output will change to at least 50 kW. A minimum weight of 180 kg will also apply. Again, the machine may be of any style; a scooter, commuter-bike, sports-bike, cruiser etc, and again, may have a twist & go automatic transmission or manual gears.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Category A / A3 licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a motorcycle of ANY engine capacity or engine power output. This does not necessarily mean that you have to, or that it is a good idea, to jump on the biggest, fastest piece of machinery you can find! (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)

After Passing tests, you do not need to display L-Plates. You may also carry pillion passengers, and if you wish, use motorways.

Category AM (moped) entitlement, Category A1 (125 Only Motorcycle) entitlement, and Category A2 (33Kw or 47bhp 'restricted motorcycle) entitlement, is automatically awarded with full A / A3 entitlement, if not already held.

Automatic Transmission Restrictions

Pretty simple; you may test under any of the above test schemes, on a qualifying bike or scooter. Doesn't matter if it has a manual gear-box, or an automatic transmission, provided it meets other test requirements of engine displacement etc.

However IF you choose to use a machine that has an Automatic Transmission, for your tests, then again, you must use an auto for both Mod 1 and Mod 2 tests, AND if you pass both tests, your licence entitlement will be 'endorsed' with a restriction "Automatics Only", and you may NOT ride a geared machine.

Worth noting; The popular Honda C90 'Step-Through' commuter bike, has a three speed 'crunch' gear-box, and an automatic centrifugal clutch like a twist-and-go, and a number of contemporary motorcycles have engines derived from the old C90 motor, and retain the centrifugal clutch. Many now have a four speed gearbox, and have been bored out to a full A2 complient 125cc. The Honda Inova, is basically the successor to the C90 and has the 125cc 4-speed centrifugal clutch engine; but that engine & transmission is also used in many monkey-bikes, and pit-bikes, which are all A2 test compliant, if road-legal. However without a 'manual-clutch', a little digging with the DSA has revealed they are classed as 'Semi-Automatic' and hence testing on one will gain Auto-Only restriction, the same as testing on a twist & go. Bit of a pity that, as they DO have gears, but still.

When I gained my licence back in 1992, there was only one test scheme; you took the test on any 'learner-legal' motorcycle, up to 125cc that wasn't a moped, and you gained, straight away, a full unrestricted, ride what you like licence. They changed that, and until this year, you had to use a bike between 120 & 125cc, and do all three tests; and if you passed you got a restricted licence, that limited you to 33bhp machines for two years. But either way, it WAS possible to take tests on a 'Twist & Go' Automatic scooter, and gain a Full unrestricted ride what you like motorcycle licence with Auto-Only restriction... which was nie on useless; as there are almost NO automatic motorcycles over 125cc!

Actually, I can name, err... four. All built briefly in the 1970's and failing to gain market acceptance, any survivors proba