CD 125 benly

[Ziggy81scott]

I have a 1984 Honda cd 125 benly and was considering putting a 200cc barrel and head on it. Was wondering if anyone knows if the bottom end and carb are the same as the 200 engine, or would it be better to replace the complete engine for a 200 unit

[salem1987]

prepare for incoming tef copy and pastes....

I dont think the barrel and head is a straight fit though from what i remember.

[Teflon-Mike]

Why?
Do it by the book and you have a modified bike with loaded insurance that's no longer Learner-Legal and costs more to tax, for very little more 'oomph'..
Do it behind closed doors... and well, your call... but...
Sorry, No; 200 barrel isn't directly interchangeable with the 125; the engines are from the same family, and share the same crank-case castngs, but the finished parts after machining have a number of dimensional differences; one of which is the barrel rebate. Might be re-machined to make it fit... But the you have the issue that the pistons for the 53mm bore on the 200, wont fit the 125's con-rods.. and its a pressed up crank, not easy to mix and match 200 rods to... and you are looking at a lot of faff to make an 'engine', that will almost certainly require custom pistons machined from blanks or milled down from another engine.
I short, it's effectively a no-go, and certainly more effort and hassle and cost, when the four-speed 200 lump will slot into the frame on just six bolts... then electrics s likely to be your biggest mating issue.
Carb believe is a Keihin PD26 on the 200, think its a PD24 on the 125, same body, different choke diameter; though they have used a few varients over the years.
It's a lovely little motor in the 200, soft yet gutsy.. but.. for what I suspect you are hoping to achieve.. wont make the thing any dang faster.. may-be almost twice the size, but it don't deliver twice the power, and there are 4-stroke 125's that make more motion... so if that's what you are after, be cheaper and easer and 100% above board to just buy one of them, if you have to stay 125. Or enjoy the 125 as is for what it is; a miniature 'touring' bike of the 70's.
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[Ziggy81scott]

Thank you for your advice, it's far more complicated than I'd hoped. My aim was to give the bike a slightly higher top end speed as I plan to ride it all over the country and don't want to be thrashing it to death sat at 60 mph all day long. I would like it to comfortably cruise at 60mph if possible. Maybe somebody can suggest something please?

[Rogerborg]

What's stopping you getting a bigger bike?
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[Northern Monkey]

[Teflon-Mike]

[Nobby the Bastard]

The ignition is an independent circuit; if you keep the 6v stator & points, you wont need to change the coil.

The lighting & charge circuits?

In the 6v arrangement, the lights are on AC direct; unregulated current powers Dip & Main beams, and the stop lamp When 'off' the light switch directs that un-rectified current at the regulator to assist charging for all the other equipment.

AC direct is actually a very 'efficient' system... it has some niggles, BUT, it is efficient, which was why it was used in the olden days. And first fly in your ointment; very easy to go 'Full Rectified DC' lighting; all you have to do is by-pass the AC Direct feed to the light switch, straight to the rectifier, and from memory, on the 6v CG that's just a case of snipping the feed wire to the light switch and tapping it in on a battery fed live... ignoring the voltage for a second, though; this will NOT give you the 'power' for 'better' lights.

Power comes from the generator, and going 'regulated DC', you aren't going to have any more power than you did to start with, and after pumping what you had through the regulator, possibly a tad less.

Yup; taking current for the lights off the battery, you will have all the juice that contains to power lights.... as long as the generator can make more than you take... which if you start fitting higher wattage bulbs, it probably wont.

Lights wont 'dim and bright' with engine revs, as they can on AC direct, especially if the bulb wattage has been increased in nieve belief it'll make lights brighter.

So, think hard on your 'better bulbs'; what power the genny is banging out still has to be shared between everything else switched on, and if the genny ent making enough to supply demand, the battery is a it like an 'over-draft', and it'll only make up the short fall, briefly, IF you 'pay it back'.. If you want to take more watts out on the headlamp, then you have to make savings elsewhere, and on the lower wattages most else draws, and the fact most of it, bar the tail lamp, only draws 'part time', means you will have to save a lot more watts on everything else, than you try giving extra to the head-lamp.

NOW... going 12v starts to become more useful, NOT so you can use common higher wattage 12v headlamp bulbs, but so you can use more readily available 12v devices elsewhere; (you will need to change all the bulbs, the horn, the flasher, and most importantly the battery) and for the most part to find the sort of 'savings' you need, we are talking about LEDing every-buldy thing, from the tail lamp and side-light, and the indies, through its warning lamp and the others for neutral and high-beam.... which begs not just a 12v flasher, but electronic 'Crystal Timed' flasher for LED's.... AND with LED warning lamp, some nifty electrickery to get round the quirk of the stock single bulbs 'reverse earth' wiring, with a 'one way' LED bulb...

Its now getting rather involved..... AND it gets more so..... you want to pick 'better' 12v headlamp bulbs.... well, that suggests the common H4 'car' type bulb fitting. This begs chopping the connector off the wires in the headlamp to fit an H4 plug, for starters, but also a H4 ftting headlamp reflector that the bulb will actually go into....

This, part-mod, would allow the use of an HID headlamp; which conveniently has a mere 35W current draw, not much of anything over 'stock' that could give you a little or breathig space looking for savings elsewhere to power it.. BUT, you have to get a reflector you can make fit i your headlamp bowl, or a complete new headlamp that you can make fit your headlamp bracket, or complete new headlamp AND brackets.. ad the find a new way to mount the indicators, horn, and speedo that share the same 'frame'....

A-N-D... by the time you have chopped all the wiring to get it to stretch or match the new lay-out on the bike, make connectors match, or replaced ones that crumble when you start messing..... you have a mongrel bastard of a wiring loom, that don't look anything like anything in any of the diagrams, with colours changing half way down wires making tracing them a pig, AND so many joints and grafts and pig-matched new and old connectors.... to give grief when you start trying to run the thing every-day.... you might as well have saved yourself a LOT of effort, and hassle, both on the spot ad down the line, getting a few meters or brand new wire, in assorted colours off e-bay; a truck load of Japanese Standard bullet connectors from Vehicle Wiring Products; and the relevent insulator sleeves, shrik-wrap and tape, and a GOOD soldering iron.. and starting from scratch, with a clean sheet of A4 paper and a packet f kiddies felt tips, to draw what you make, 'cos it ENT gona look like the book says it should!

It ent cheap, and it ent easy.. and the niggle over using 6v points generator or making later 12v CDI genny fit your engine, is but SMALL worry in the greater scheme of things.........

But, if you really want to go 12v, probably the surest way about it; and if you can pick up an MOT failed 12v Chiky CG copy 'Spares or Repairs' you probably get all the bits required to do a full conversion, to the book, and a few besides.

Alternatively, and this would be my recommendation; big enough job doing a first time resto; do it to the book and leave it stock.

Lights aren't great, but if properly fettled when you restore and you fit a nice new shiny reflector and clean all the contacts properly to give the stock bulb all the volts it can get, ought to work 'adequately' and probably better than something 'upgraded' badly.
____________________
trevor saxe-coburg-gotha:"Remember this simple rule - scooters are for men who like to feel the breeze on their huge, flapping cunt lips."
Triumph Sprint ST 1050

[Ziggy81scott]

I do have a full licence however I've had this little 125 for 15 or more it's my pride and joy, I take it to classic bike shows too. I have a friend who has a 1955 Francis Barnett falcon 197cc, he goes all over with that but pays for it with constant repairs ect, I want to go along with him but not hold the traffic up and without killing the bike.
If I have no choice but to use a motorway then I'm going to need to do 60 or 70 mph for quite long periods.
I understand I might well be asking a bit much of the little bike but I would really appreciate any advice.

I had thought of putting a slightly bigger front sprocket on it.
Your thoughts are definitely welcome.

[Ziggy81scott]

Thank you all for your advice, I can see that perhaps I am expecting a little too much of the bike.
I am now considering buying something a bit bigger having listened to your imput.
I do like the older style of bike and maybe something like a bmw r45/65 would be something I would like.
I'm a big fan of British bikes so perhaps a royal Enfield India could be a idea. Thanks to everyone who has given me advice

[Rogerborg]

Buying the Dream Honda CB125 'Super-Dream' Buyer's Guide

Cropped up on a Forum the other day. Lad, had spotted a CB125 Super-Dream for sale, but before going to look at it, wanted to know what to look for, so was directed to me for advice. I am NOT entirely impartial, I will at some point have one or two of these for sale, but what the heck, what's source for the goose and all that. Hopefully any-one looking to buy one of my bikes will reckon that they meet the standards I set for them!

Contents

Is a Little Super Dream the bike for you?
Super Dream Specs
Projects, Fixer Uppers, and Ride Away Deals
Common Faults and What to look for
Example E Bay Adverts

Is a Little Super Dream the bike for you?

Anyway, the very FIRST thing you need to know is that the Honda CB125 Super Dream is a 'Classic', a very useful one, too, and it has an awful lot going for it, that can make it a very discerning choice of bike. BUT, if you just want cheap wheels, or a tool to pass your test on, your probably best to look elsewhere. You need to have a bit of 'enthusiasm' to actually WANT a CB125 Super Dream, and if your going to live with it, you ought to have a good idea of what they are, what their history is, and what makes them worth owning.

[Image:]Already written an article, Learner Legals & Honda Super-Dreams, to explain why this little 'under-dog' of a bike is a bit 'special' and worthy of attention. But in short, it was in 1982 Hondas premier 'sports' 125 for the new 125 Learner-Legal market. A four-stroke twin cylinder machine, intended to compete head to head on performance against rivals single cylinder two-strokes, when Honda were still ardently committed to the four-stroke engine and campaigning the oval-piston wonders against the two-strokes in 500GP racing.

The legal 12.5bhp 'restriction' helped, the Super-Dream but it still had to be 'de-tuned' from the earlier models 16bhp to meet it, the same as the all new Kawasaki AR125LC and Yamaha RD125LC, and boasted as many technically avant-garde features, so it DID have the performance to match its two-stroke rivals, at least when they were standard and genuinely learner-legal.

Nearly thirty years on, its conservative styling and four-stroke engine mean the bikes now perceived simply as a slightly more sophisticated 'commuter' like The Legendary Honda CG125 that's the bench mark for the class. Testimony to the soundness of the bikes design and engineering, though, it was in production for approximately ten years until 1992, without significant change.

There are few AR's or RD's around any more, most thrashed to death by a succession of kiddie-go-quickly owners and their attempts at servicing and tuning (see 125's - Live Hard), and the few that have survived tend to be either basket cases offered for restoration, or over-priced teenage revival trophies. Its testimony then that the little Super-Dream not only outlived its rivals in the show-room, but also on the streets, where so many are still in use, and as often as every-day working commuter bikes.

As a potential buyer, this does bode well. There should be plenty to choose from, to be able to find a better one. And as I have alluded to elsewhere, this is an 'under-dog' motorcycle, which means generally undervalued, hinting that there should be bargains to be found... or at least better bikes for more realistic prices, as the bike has past the 'test of time' and shown itself basically sound and reliable and well proven.

BUT! It IS still an 'old' bike, and the youngest of them out there will be at least nineteen or twenty years old, with the majority being built between 1982 and 1986, quarter of a century, pushing thirty years. AND while its conservative styling and four-stroke engine have placed it in with the commuter bikes, its 12,000rpm red line certainly does NOT! This IS a 'sports-bike', and it was far more avant-garde when launched than Honda's current 'premier' CBR125, which in many ways is actually a lot more conservative.

[Image:]Worth noting that many of the features of the modern CBR125 are actually no more 'advanced' than the 125 Super-Dream, particularly the important bits, front and rear suspension, brakes, and tyre sizes.

And while it may boast a water-cooled and fuel injected engine, that is significantly to meet modern emission requirements, not for reliability or performance, and it's rated power out-put is within a gnats, the same as the 'ancient' Super-Dream twin.

Meanwhile, the fashionable beam-style frame and sporty faired styling, offer little functional value to the motorcycle. That frame is designed for least manufacturing cost, not ultimate structural stiffness!

While the aerodynamics of the bodywork offer little practical stream-lining to help the bike go faster! And the small weather protection they might offer has to be balanced by the vulnerability, if the bike gets knocked off the side stand!
Compared to the 'Bench-Mark' Honda CG125, the little Super-Dream is in a completely different league. The CG might have gained electric start and disc-brake in its long and illustrious production history, but it was always a 10bhp 'budget' commuter, built down to a price, most in Brazil. Which is another plus point in the Little Super-Dreams favour, as a premier model, it was always built in Japan. It even says so on the generator cover. Which is a boast I'm not sure even the CBR can make, and even if it can, an awful lot of the 'bits' that have gone into building it will have come from Taiwan or China!

So, the Honda CB125 'Super-Dream' is a well proven, enduring little 'sports-bike' that has stood the test of time against its contemporary rivals, and STILL bears favourable comparison against modern offerings. And it can be viewed as many things, depending on your perspective.

It may merely be perceived as a slightly more sophisticated commuter, an alternative to the CG125. Providing the creature comforts of an electric start and disc brake, only found on the later models, a little more performance, comfort and 'substance' for want of a better way to describe the better finish and feel, without simply saying 'heavy'! (It weighs 125Kg, exactly the same as a CBR125 or YBR125, and a mere 9Kg, more than the CG! That's roughly the difference between a full tank of petrol and being on reserve, yet some people still insist THAT is a big deal! Usually older ones that remember it being a little heavier than an RD or AR)

Or it can be viewed as as a traditionally styled and budget-priced 'sports' Learner bike, a cheap alternative to the CBR125, or as likely the Chinese or Korean copies. But it SHOULD be perceived as a 'classic', and a very useful and practical one, that can still earn its keep as an every day bike, against the teen-age revival bikes, like the RD-LC or AR125 and such.

Its worth mention that a lot of owners reports of the Honda CBR suggest that its no where near as exiting as its avant-garde styling suggest it should be, and its actually a rather uninspiring ride, a commuter in sports bike cloths. The 'old' Super-Dream could probably stand the opposite allegation. Its a proper sports-bike in commuter cloths!

Ranking the bike against alternatives; nearly every-one I have ever met that has owned or ridden one, has said positive things about it, and they have nearly always been happily surprised by it. The main thing that people will tell you about them is that they were a lot of fun, and surprisingly fast, and comment on the unexpected wail of a little four-stroke screaming its way up to the 12,000 RPM red-line, yet not blowing up or demanding frequent rebuilds like the two-strokes, and starting on the button first of second prod, no matter what, and just 'working'.

A few people have criticises the bikes performance and handling, and I have been dogged by people suffering niggles and hassles, asking advice over worn bores and dodgy electrics, but for the most part, these can be explained by the old age and state of neglect or disrepair of the bikes in question. Good ones are pretty damn good, but its still a learner-legal 125, and an old one likely to have suffered a lot of abuse and neglect in the hands of a succession of newbie riders, and there are plenty of not so good ones out there! I know, all mine started out that way!

Super Dream Specs Basic Specifications & comparison Honda CG125 Honda CB125TD Honda CBR125 Yamaha RD125LC Yamaha YBR125 Cagiva Mito [Image:] [Image:] [Image:] [Image:] [Image:] [Image:] Engine 4-Stroke
Air-Cooled
Push-Rod
1-Cylinder
5-Speed 4-Stroke
Air-Cooled
SOHC
2-Cylinder
5-Speed 4-Stroke
Liquid-Cooled
SOHC 4v
1-Cylinder
6-Speed 2-Stroke
Liquid-Cooled
Reed-Valve
1-Cylinder
6-Speed 4-Stroke
Air-Cooled
SOHC
1-Cylinder
5-Speed 2-Stroke
Liquid-Cooled
Reed-Valve
1-Cylinder
6-Speed Suspension Front: 115mm by 27mm Telescopic Fork
Rear: 80mm by Twin Shock, Swing-Arm Front: 140mm by 31mm Telescopic Fork
Rear: 95mm by multi-link, rising rate, Mono-shock Front: 140mm by 31mm Telescopic Fork
Rear: 100mm by multi-link, rising rate, Mono-shock Front: ???mm by 32mm Telescopic Fork
Rear: ??mm by Cantilever Mono-shock Front: 120mm by 30mm Telescopic Fork
Rear: 105mm by Twin Shock, Swing-Arm Front: 120mm by 40mm USD Tele-Fork
Rear: 100mm by multi-link, rising rate, Mono-shock Wheels Wheel-Base: 1297mm
Front:18-70/100 (2.75)
Rear: 18-90/90 Wheel-Base: 1350mm
Front:18-80/100 (3.00)
Rear: 18-85/100 (3.25) Wheel-Base: 1294mm
Front: 17-80/90
Rear: 17-100/80 Wheel-Base: 1300mm
Front:18-70/100 (2.75)
Rear: 18-80/100 (3.00) Wheel-Base: 1290mm
Front:18-70/100 (2.75)
Rear: 18-90/90 Wheel-Base: 1374mm
Front: 17-110/70
Rear: 17-150/60 Brakes Front: (Early Models) Expanding Drum
(Later Models) Disc with Single Piston Floating Calliper

Rear: Expanding Drum Front: Disc with Twin Piston Floating Calliper
Rear: Expanding Drum Front: Disc with Twin Piston Floating Calliper
Rear: Disc with Single Piston Floating Calliper Front: Disc with Single Piston Floating Calliper
Rear: Expanding Drum Front: (Early Models) Expanding Drum
(Later Models) Disc with Single Piston Floating Calliper
Rear: Expanding Drum Front: Disc with Twin Piston Floating Calliper
Rear: Disc with Single Piston Floating Calliper Performance Weight: 115kg
Power: 10.5bhp
Speed: 65mph
Economy: 90-110mpg Weight: 124kg
Power: 12.5bhp
Speed: 70mph
Economy: 95mpg Weight: 115kg
Power: 13bhp
Speed: 70mph
Economy: 70-100mpg Weight: 115kg
Power: 12.5/21bhp
Speed: 72/81mph
Economy: 75/64mpg
(Restricted / De-Restricted) Weight: 124kg
Power: 10bhp
Speed: 70mph
Economy: 80-100mpg Weight: 129kg
Power: 14.5/31bhp
Speed: 73/101mph
Economy: 00/34mpg
(Restricted / De-Restricted) Detail Specification, Variants & Other 'Family' models.
[Image:]The CB125T, of 1977, was a derivative model of what is known as the 'Benley' family of little Hondas, based on a set of 'common' engine cases, though numerously different internal components.

The Honda 'Benley' was a 'touring' version of Honda's more sport CB 'Twins', normally distinguished by heavier styling, but always a single carburettor.

The earlier Benleys were based on the 'Dream' engine, nominally 175cc, but with different crankshaft and barrels, offered in various capacities from 125cc up to 250cc.

The CD185 of approximately 1975, though was an all new engine, distinguished by having the chain drive for the camshaft positioned between the two cylinders.

Originally with 6v electrical system, points ignition and kick starting, later models gained 12v Electrics, electric starting, and 'contactless' CDi ignition. These changes came with numerous detail revisions to the outer engine cases to accommodate the different equipment, and significantly the cylinder heads and barrels.

Early engines had the points mechanism on the end of the Cam Shaft in the head, and a cam cover with individual caps to adjust the tappets, while the barrel featured the cam chain adjuster mechanism on the front of the engine between the exhausts, where it was repositioned to the back of the barrel on later models, between the carburettors.

The most significant feature shared by the Earlier engines though was a 360 degree crank shaft, both pistons rising and falling at the same time, on different strokes. This allows the convenience of a 'single' trigger lost spark ignition system, the one trigger firing the spark plugs in both cylinders at the same time. The 'lost' spark being that as the piston in one cylinder is rising towards Top Dead Centre on the compression stroke ready to be ignited, the other piston, will be rising on the exhaust stroke, pushing spent gasses out of the exhaust valve. So, if both spark plugs are triggered together, then the cylinder on the compression stroke gets ignited, whilst the spark in the other cylinder merely sparks in already burned exhaust gasses, and is hence 'lost'.

[Image:]The CB125T, however has a 180 Degree crankshaft. This means that when one piston is at the top of its stroke, the other is at the bottom. This is a significant and important difference, and the CB125 is the ONLY model in the family that has such an arrangement.

The reason for it, is that with both pistons rising and falling together, the engine is almost as 'lumpy' and prone to vibration as a single, which is an impediment to reliability at higher engine RPM. But the whole idea of making a 'little twin' was to make an engine that could make more power from turning higher engine speeds.

Hence the idea behind the 180 degree crankshaft was to give the engine better 'balance' so that it could turn to higher RPM more reliably.

To aid this, the CB models were equipped with twin carburettors, as opposed to the single carburettors fitted to 360 crank models, and a completely revised Ignition system, was needed to provide sparks at 180 degree intervals, individually to each cylinder, though still by the 'lost spark' principle.

The 'Twin Shock' CB125Twin, shared a lot of commonality with other 'small' Hondas of the era. Intended to superseded the CB125Single, as a 'sporty' 125 road bike, many components are common with the CG125 which also superseded the earlier single, and the CB100N Overhead Camshaft Single.

The Honda CM125 'Rebel' was also introduced at around the same time, sharing many parts with the CB125T, though actually using a derivative of the Benley's 360 crank engine, and single carburettor.

[Image:]

The 1982 CB125 'Super Dream', was a significant departure, and the ONE important feature of the bike is the monoshock rear suspension.

For this model, Honda started with an almost clean sheet of paper.

The engine is a 'Benley' derivative, but gained the Benleys electric starter, and 12v electrics, as well as CDi Ignition, while retaining the CB125T's 180 degree crankshaft and twin carburettors.

The UK market model is known as the 'Reduced Effect' variant, as it was positively de tuned from the CB125T's 17bhp to a Learner Legal compliant 12.5, for the UK market, mainly through the use of a softer camshaft profile, and revised carburettors.

Other market models made a claimed 17bhp, as the Earlier T model. But it is NOT easy to 'de restrict' a Super Dream, either with parts from the European variants, or an earlier T.

The camshaft from the T model, I believe doesn't directly fit into the Super Dream cylinder head, due to it having a drive on the end for the points ignition, that the Super Dream doesn't have. Meanwhile the t carburettors have a different body and mount awkwardly on the Super Dream carburettor stubs and wont line up with the original air boxes, demanding their removal. as these form the battery tray, this means an alternative way of locating or supporting the battery must also be found.

Full power cam shafts for other market models may still be obtained new, as may many carburettor parts. However, many parts are discontinued, so it would not be possible to modify a UK Super Dream to 'Full power' specification, entirely with new parts, and what parts are available, would make it an inordinately expensive exercise, for very little practical gain.

Significantly 'unique' to the Super Dream model, is the frame, with its sophisticated monoshock rear suspension; the front forks, and the twin piston brake caliper. Petrol tank and bodywork.

Interchangeability between The Super Dream and other derivatives in the Benley 'family' is limited. Though it is common for Super Dreams with seized engines to have replacements sourced from, most commonly the CM125, as it shares the CB125's five speed gearbox.

Projects, Fixer Uppers, and Ride Away Deals
Right, these are old bikes. You cant really walk into a show room, pick the colour you want, haggle finance terms and ride it away with a warranty. Really there are three ways to get one. Find one that's survived twenty years with so little use its in reasonably good condition still. Or find one that's a complete wreck and do a renovation on it yourself. Or find one that some one else has found as a derelict or a wreck and fixed up, and sells on when they have done.

First question, Do you want a 'Project' or do you JUST want a bike to ride?

'Fixer Uppers' tend to fit in the middle, as either an 'easy' project, or a rider you don't mind having to do a 'Bit' or work to. But the warning is, crap rolls down hill. A rider can easily become a 'Fixer Upper' very easily without much encouragement, and a fixer Upper can quickly become an full on 'Project'.

Economically, if you want a bike to ride, its often far cheaper to pay that bit more for a bike that's a ride away deal, than hope to snag a bargain for a 'little' work. That 'little' work more often proves to be a lot, and often expensive parts, soon erode any saving, as can buying a 'cheap' rider that soon becomes a 'fixer upper'.

As for Projects, well, very FEW projects are financially profitable. Starting with a Derelict motorcycle, in all likelihood, the reason its derelict is because of some problem that meant it was cheaper to buy another bike than to fix it. Price of old bikes rarely goes up significantly, unless they do become genuine collectors items, but even then, good working examples are often cheaper to buy than the cost of resurrecting a derelict, while 'concourse' machines, to get to the standard that actually stand them a chance of taking awards, normally costs far more then they would sell for.

I caution TIME and TIME again, the kiddology of so many taking on a project convincing themselves that all the time and effort and money spent is worth it, and the bike or Land Rover they MIGHT end up with, is worth every penny..... to THEM, maybe, if they see it that far, but the harsh reality is that on the open market to any one else, its rarely worth a fraction of the cost of the parts that have gone into it.

The ONLY way that a Project is in anyway economically realistic is IF you write off the costs as the price of your hobby, like building scale models to display on your mantelpiece, or playing golf or fishing, or something where you spend money to engage in a pursuit you enjoy.

Which means you have to enjoy the work. If you want a motorbike, and DON'T enjoy the challenge of frustrating and niggling little problems, and the hassles of finding bits, then you are on a fools errand, because you'll be wasting time that you could be spending doing something you actually like, or which is more useful or more profitable.

So taking on a Fixer Upper, that proves more demanding than anticipated, well? Have a look round the site, at my Project bikes. ALL of those were sold with the suggestion that they were 'easy fix' 'Fixer Uppers'.

Donna's 'Pup' was probably the classic example. That bike was sold on, with an add suggesting that it was a simple MOT failure needing no more than a pair of fork seals, included in the sale! to get it through its test and back on the road, being sold because the seller didn't have the time to do the work, and his wife, who was the bikes rider, had lost patience with him and bought a cruiser instead!

That bike, when I looked at the pictures, I could tell needed more than just fork seals. When I saw it in the metal, I started adding up the immediate works needed, which included new headrace bearings, and a suspension overhaul, at the very least.

Donna, accustomed to such 'wrecks' and having been lead to believe that they COULD be cheaply and easily fixed up, and got on the road with a 'friendly' MOT, honestly didn't think that it would take more than a bit of servicing and some paint to get that bike back on the road.

At time of writing, near enough the OTR price of a brand spanking new Honda CBF125 spent on parts alone, she has sort of realised that it doesn't work that way. She's also realised why so often the bikes she had didn't go very well, didn't handle very well, didn't inspire much confidence, or broke down so much!

But that was part of the exercise, one of the 'Project Objectives', for Donna to learn mechanics, and how bikes work, and to appreciate what's going on under her bum when she's riding. Getting a working motorcycle, more, one that inspired confidence and worked properly, that she could do her training and test on at the end, was a separate Project Objective.

If it was the ONLY project objective, It would have been a heck of a lot cheaper, and a darn site easier to have gone and bought her a two or three year old Yamaha YBR125, for about a thousand pounds, TWO FIFTHS of what this bike's cost! AND when she had got her licence, sold it on for probably within £100 of what we paid for it.

Please think long on that one. Doing a Project on a 125 'Learner Legal' so you have a bike to ride on a provisional licence and get your test, EVEN if you succeed, and turn a 'Fixer Upper' for a few hundred quid into a serviceable bike, which, when you have done with it, you can sell on for no more than you have spent.... well, buying a 'Rider' to begin with, for a little extra outlay up front, could have got you to exactly the same place.

Doing it via 'Fixer Upper', practically you are looking at bikes that will cost you in the region of £400 to buy. (see Ebay Advert Examples) Add just £50 for some bits and pieces, and £50 doesn't buy MANY, then add an MOT and some tax, and you'll have spent over the £500 that COULD have bought you a 'Ride Away' bike, that after three or four months use, and a concerted effort to get through your bike test, you could sell on, just as readily for pretty close to what you paid. RATHER than mucking about with bits of rusty metal and greasy castings, annoying mothers, wives, flat mates or who ever with the tide mark round the bath, and the mess in the back garden, to MAYBE get to the same place.

IF you have to have a fixer upper or project, makes FAR more sense to look for a 'big bike' to do. Every aspiring 'motorcyclist', looks at the costs of getting a bike, they add up the cost of the licence, CBT, crash helmet, gloves, water proofs, then the test fees, and perhaps the price of a rider training course, then looks at the prices of bikes again, and is HORRIFIED. SO start looking to see where they can make some economies. And as the biggest single expense, they consider the price of the bike the best place that they can save money.

They then start thinking, that as they AREN'T going to keep the bike very long, they don't want to spend any more money than they have to on it, and looking further and further down the market, until they get to the conclusion that rather than buy a 'clapped out wreck' with an MOT, they'll buy an MOT failure and 'do it up', in the naive belief that that HAS to be cheaper, and will give them a 'better' bike for less money.

Unfortunately, the numbers rarely add up. In the Ebay Advert examples I've offered here you'll see that 'Fixer Uppers' tend to fetch almost as much money as bikes that are ready to ride away. In some cases, incredibly they sometimes fetch more!

One of the bikes in the Example Ebay adverts was a very useful looking bike, that was taxed and tested and ready to ride, with a lot of work done as running repairs. It bid to a fraction under £500 and I'm sure some one had snagged themselves a nice little bargain. Another bike in the examples, sold the same day, a few hours later, as an 'unfinished project' with an AWFUL lot of niggles that needed sorting mentioned in the description, down played as 'easy fixes' that made me wince, for £360. Adding £30 for an MOT to that, and another £15 for tax, makes £420, making it 'On The Road', only £50 or so cheaper than the bike that sold as a 'Rider'. I very much doubt that any one would sort the problems on that bike for under £50. Realistically, by the old double the estimate and then double it again, rule, £200 is more likely, and from what I know about these bikes, that's actually likely, and that it STILL wouldn't be a great well sorted bike.

Seriously, SO many people have the quaint idea that fixing up an old bike would be a 'fun' thing to do, or a cheap way to get themselves on the road, more people actually go looking for bikes to 'fix up' than there are wrecks for them to fix! And incredibly MANY of them will actually NOT buy road worthy and ride away ready bikes, because such a machine doesn't fit their idea of what a 'project' should be!

Ironically, a scruffy old bike that's already road worthy, is probably a far better project base than an old derelict. The bike is all there, serviceable and working. You can see what it SHOULD look like before you start pulling it to pieces, and you can pick and choose what work to do, in what order, depending on what's important to you, and probably NOT find so many problems along the way!

If you want a 'cheap' bike to get your licence on, please hear what I'm trying to tell you. DON'T buy a bike thinking that you'll make some huge saving by getting a fixer upper or project. Its highly likely that all you'll achieve is oil stains on the patio, and a lot of frustration.

Again, look at the ebay advert examples, and how MANY 'unfinished' projects there are! Nearly ALL of them started by people with more optimism than know how. And they don't get finished, as often, not because they don't know what they are doing, or are clueless mechanics, though some are. Normally its because they reach a point where they realise the actual enormity of the job, the costs, the time and the hassle, and concede that they were far more optimistic than they were realistic.

IF you are going to take on a project, like Donnas Pup, you HAVE to have clear Project Objectives, and be sure you are going to get 'value' out of the project, not just disappointment.

In Donna's case there were a lot of Project Objectives. As said, the first was to teach her mechanics, the second how motorbikes work, the third to build her a bike that was as good as it could be and would inspire confidence riding it, for her to do her rider training and tests on, and to keep as an every day, low running cost commuter beyond that.

As said, the value of the bike to do her test on, is negligible. We could have hired a School Bike for her rider training and tests for about £200, or bought a £1000 YBR125 of her own, she could use between lessons, that we could have sold on after for within £100 of buy price, ultimately costing no more than a hire bike. At the top end, we could have bought her a brand new Honda CBF125 for £2500, to do her training and tests on, and sold on after a year for perhaps £2000. So at MOST the value of being able to do training and test on 'the Pup' is practically no more than £200, the cost of a school hire bike.

Built to an almost 'as New' standard, and incorporating a few custom features and useful accessories, the total build price is not too exorbitant, in comparison the a brand new Honda CBF125, but unlike that it doesn't come with a warranty or guaranteed spares back up, and its instant resale depreciation is no where NEAR as good! Its a twenty five year old Honda 125. It may be a very nice very tidy bike, but on the open market, other nice tidy CB125 Super Dreams rarely fetch more than £800 or £900. IF some one was shown the receipts and the complete photo rebuild, I doubt they would offer much more than perhaps £1200, if that for the bike.

Now Donnas bike has been built to an incredibly high standard, it really is as close as you practically get to a 'no expense spared' renovation, but believe me, we have HAD to spare some expenses to make it viable, or even the 'price of a new bike budget' would have gone out the window! So really, she's achieved a £1200 bike, plus £200's worth of training tool, for about £2500, and a lot of hard work.

That MEANS the 'project' will have 'cost' about £1100 in parts, plus all the time, effort and hassle to put them all together, and make them a motorbike. The question IS, is the year of mechanics between buying and riding WORTH that money? Has she got £1100's worth of fun out of doing this project? Has she LEARNED £1100's worth of knowledge? And is the satisfaction of riding this bike, knowing she has built it, with her own hands, the way SHE wants it, worth £1100?

Only SHE can answer that question, and so far she has unequivocally answered 'Yes', and added that she could NOT have got a bike like this in any dealers, and she wouldn't have had anywhere near as much fun writing a cheque as she has twirling spanners, and she would have learned absolutely nothing about mechanics or how motorbikes work, and not have had anything like the confidence riding a new bike as she gets from this one, or the joy of a bike that's that bit different, unusual and generally 'special'.

So ultimately, she's happy with the outcome, and deems it worth the money and the effort. But its been a lot of both, and ultimately, no one else but HER can derive that same value.

Back to the start, If you want a bike to ride, DO NOT think that buying a cheap one, is necessarily a good way to go. It can very easily become a fixer upper, and that can just as easily prove to be a complete project bike.

If you want a fixer upper, just to get a cheap bike, again, there are far to many people all with the same idea. They are far too often proved disappointed.

If you REALLY want a 'project', REALLY think long and hard about it. You need an awful lot more than nieve optimism and enthusiasm. You really need a lot of dedication, and commitment, and you REALLY need to be realistic and practical about the economics, and practicalities of it all, and what you want out of the project BEYOND merely a bike to ride.

If you read the Blogs of the renovations of my bikes, or Donna's Pup, and the "How To" articles there's a lot there that might convince you a project is a lot easier than it really is, or that there are loads of ways to avoid having to spend too much money. BUT apply caution. at time of writing Donna's 'Pup' has been work In Progress for nearly a year, and that hasn't been unduly delayed waiting for pay days to be able to afford to get parts holding up work. Nor has it been unduly held up by finding the time to work on it, in and around work commitments, family, or domestic chores. The Corporal was Work in Progress for around five months. Again, unfettered by work commitments or financial constraints. AND aided by having my own store of 'ready spares', and a well stocked tool box.

These projects CAN be done. And they can be done to a good standard, and to a reasonable budget. But they are far from 'easy', and they are fraught with risks and problems you have to be pretty sure you can handle.

As a platform for a project base, or fixer upper, little bikes usually aren't the best candidates. As said, if you want to do a 'project' to give yourself a bike to take training and tests on, really, you'd probably be better of simply hiring a school bike, or buying a rider, you know is easily saleable. And if you STILL want a project bike, picking a bigger bike that you can build up to ride on your full licence. You will find far more and better candidates to play with, which are as easy to work on, and as cheap to get parts for, which have far less risk of not getting to completion, and be able to offset much more of the effort and expense against the greater use you can get out of them when built.

If you are still not put off a 'Learner Legal' project, then from experience, I can honestly say that choosing a Honda CB125 Super Dream you are making life difficult for yourself. They are great little bikes, but they are also quite cantankerous, and demanding.

For a novice mechanic, it's a lot easier to get to grips with the mechanics of a less sophisticated motorcycle, and starting out, I would advice considering something with twin shock rear suspension, a single cylinder engine, preferably air cooled, and preferably a two stroke, also something more common, with better spares support.

Of the old two stroke commuters that meet this remit, though, most are suffering quite badly from lack of both new and used spares. Probably the best bet for a first time project at the moment is the venerable Honda CG125. It has a cult following, and second hand prices are strong. As such its a bike you stand a much better chance of getting a little more out of in resale value for whatever you put into it.

Its also got very good spares support, with the model, still in current production, though not by Honda! Well, a variant of it is still in production, by Honda, but it is being built in China under licence, and other countries, and there are a lot of parts available in consequence through those channels.

The single cylinder engine means that if major engine work is required, the costs tend to be half as much. If a rebore is needed, It has a bigger cylinder to be machines, but its only one machining operation, not two. Piston might be larger, but it probably wont be much more expensive than one piston for a CB125 twin. It only has one exhaust pipe, and one carburettor, and one ignition coil, etc. And its a durable low tech little lump, with push rod valves, so its not much more difficult to work on than a two stroke, and less prone to damage than the Over head Cam twin.

The rear suspension is another big saving, it has simple twin shocks, which if completely knackered are about half the price to replace as the mono shock on the Super Dream, and it only has bushes to replace in the swing arm pivot, not in every joint in the suspension linkage! Front forks are still available reasonably cheaply too, rather than having to try and get old Super Dream items expensively re chromed.

The list goes on. Its not as nice a bike to ride as a Super Dream, and it doesn't have the performance of a good CB125, but as a potential project, it has FAR less areas where problems may be encountered, and far fewer complex assemblies where inordinate expense may be incurred.

Alternatively, if you want a fun little bike that will turn heads, and offer performance, and don't mind a little bit of extra work, then there's the Yamaha RD125LC or TZR125's. Popular little 'Teenage Revival' bikes, the Yamahas are in many ways easier to fix up than the Super Dream. They have a monoshock rear suspension system, but its a simple cantilever on the RD and a more robust and common linkage on the TZR. Meanwhile the engine, though water cooled, is a simpler two stroke single, that is not that much more difficult or expensive to recondition than a CG engine. And they fetch more realistic prices, making them that bit more financially viable.

The CB125 Super Dream, IF you want one for a project, is NOT the easiest, nor the most economically viable, then.

So IF you are looking for something to cut your teeth on and learn mechanics, really thing hard whether a Super Dream is the bike to do it with. You need to accept that its a little perverse, and a bigger challenge, and that the rewards aren't going to be so great. But if the challenge, and doing something a bit 'different' is part of your Project Objectives, AND you have a good clear and realistic idea of what you are taking on, THEN a CB125 Super Dream may be worth looking at. BUT, there are an awful lot of other, and possibly better projects you could do, you need to consider before committing to one.

Common Faults and What to look for
There are two or three stages of 'review' for a bike being offered for sale, and lots of different things to look for, some of which are more important than others, depending on whether you want a Project / Fixer Upper, or a Rider.

The first review stage is gleaning is much as you can from an advert, to decide if its worth pursuing. From what's in, or NOT in the advert, you can compile a list of queries to put to the seller to decide whether its worth going to see or not. Then you have actually looking at the thing. Firstly, an initial, 'over view', then a more detailed inspection, possibly test ride, maybe by some one with a bit of mechanical acumen, or even an independent engineer like an AA Inspection or similar.

But the starting point is always the adverts. So I have compiles a selection of recent e bay ads for Honda CB125 Super Dreams and critiqued them, telling you what I read into the advert. This should give you a good idea of a lot of the common problems these bikes suffer. But starting at the top.

AGE & Mileage.
Don't mean much on these bikes. A Honda CB125 Super Dream is going to be a twenty something year old bike. And a Learner Bike at that, which is almost certain to have had a succession of more clumsy and less clued up, learner owners. ALL 125 Learner Legals suffer this problem, and twenty something year old ones are going to have been around long enough that they have had a LOT of exposure to the kind of wear and tear Learner Legals get, on top of plenty of opportunity for neglect, abandonment and general decay. General condition, standards of maintenance, repairs and overhaul are FAR more important than the actual age or mileage of the bike.

For note, the model was introduced as an '82 Catalogue Model. In the UK, the earliest bikes registered were on an 'X' suffix registration. of the form ABC123X. This became a 'Y' Suffix in August 1983. Running out of year letters to stick at the end, they flipped the order round so for August 1984, they gained an 'A' PREfix registration of the form A123ABC, incrementing to a B, for August 1985 C, for August 1986 D, for August 1987, E, for August 1989, F for August 1988, G for August 1989, H for August 1990, J For August 1991. K for August 1992.

The Honda CB125 Super Dream had three 'updates' in its ten year production history. The first models produced from '82 to 84 were suffix TD-C. But this relates to the year of MANUFACTURE not the year of first registration. Bikes Registered on X, Y, A, should be TD-C variants, however UK demand for the model wasn't as great as Honda had anticipated, and dealers were running out TD-C models as late as 1987, getting, B, C, and in some cased D prefix registration numbers. The first updated model was the TD-E, which commenced manufacture in 1984 and remained until 1988. But while UK dealers still had stocks of unsold TD-C models, few were registered before 1987. Earliest TD-E's appear on D, though more usually E or F pre fix registration plates. Practically the only difference between TD-C and TD-E versions is the paint schemes, and TD-E's being badged as a CB125T 'Deluxe' rather than a 'Super Dream'. 1988 on TD-J models differ in having cast three spoke wheels rather than com stars, tubless tyres, and CV carburettors rather than slide carbs, as well as different colour schemes, again.. Few TD-J models were sold in the UK, the greatest number of bikes are TD-C's. TD-J's tend to be on G, H & J prefix registrations, though you may find a late registration that languished in a dealers show room longer than it remained in the official Honda Sales catalogues!

The 'average' annual mileage of a motorcycle is currently around 4000 miles, a very low figure, reflecting how many machines these days are kept purely for occasional leisure use. When the Super Dream was in the Current Catalogue, annual average mileages were around 6-7000. This was not uncommon for small capacity Learner Legals and commuters, that were far more often used as everyday transport, and many covered up to and some times beyond the 10K mark, close the the national average for a car at the time of approximately 12K miles.

Generally, the 'Little' Super Dream proved itself 'good' for a respectable 40,000 miles. Well looked after, models could achieve perhaps 60K miles, but few ever have been that well looked after. Most Learner Legals tend to survive as every day machines for around seven years, before falling into the 'cheap heap' bargain bin, where they probably need more work than they are worth. So a reasonably well looked after bike, doing say 7000 miles a year, could pretty well be expected to be at the end of its expected service life, at seven years and 49,K miles. Lower mileage machines might stretch that out to around ten years. BUT, on the Super Dream, the engines tend to start suffering anticipated bore wear in the engine at around 35,ooo miles. But the biggest 'killer' of Honda 125 Super Dreams, tends to be neglected servicing. Significantly oil changes and the internal oil strainer, which if neglected can lead to premature bore wear, poor oil pressure and ultimately cam shaft seizure.

Looking at one today, it's unlikely that a surviving machine has been in continual service since first use, and any example considered will have had periods of 'lay up'. Its also most likely that machines will have been taken off the road for a fault that was deemed too expensive to fix. Unloved for a long while, its possible that the price of a rebore or a pair of new tyres could have rendered a machine 'beyond economical repair'. Resurgence in the bike market, and new supplies of parts, particularly for these models, has made many 'Scrap' bikes more viable to repair, along with increasing resale values as older machines have established some sort of 'Classic' status. This accounts for many of the 'Derelict' machines offered with optimistic prices, as well as a large number of 'unfinished projects'. But MOST of these bikes on the market today, if not actual Derelicts offered for 'restoration', likely to have been one. And if by some remote dint of chance, a machine has managed to avoid any lengthy lay ups or periods of dereliction and decay, to have survived in service this long, it can be presumed the machine will have had to have had quite a lot of maintenance and repair work undertaken as its been going along.

So, SIMPLY because of the age of these bikes, age and mileage should only be of notional interest. Overall general condition, is by far the more important thing to worry about, and a buyer should be looking more at the standards of maintenance and repair undertaken, (or not!) on the machine.

Crash Damage.
All motorcycles are vulnerable to crash damage, and Learner Legals, bear the brunt of the statistics that say Learners are something like nine times more likely to have a 'recorded' accident, than a qualified rider. The 'Recorded' bits important, stats are only made form accidents people report, either to police, emergency services or insurance companies. MOST Learners fall off at some point, often frequently! And with minor scuffs and scrapes and no one else hurt, these tumbles seldom make the stats. We could probably triple the probability of a Learner accident and still not even get close to the real likelihood of a bike being dropped. But, we can be pretty sure that the probabilities are so high, its pretty much an inevitability, and its incredibly unlikely that you'd go look at a 20 year old 125 that HASN'T been dropped or crashed. Most WILL have, and repeatedly!

But, they are Learner Legals. They are light weight machines, of limited performance, and they tend not to suffer 'such' heavy accident damage as larger, faster bikes. They still CAN, and bent forks, buckled wheels, and twisted frames still need to be looked for. But for the most part, the most common injuries are dented petrol tanks, bent handlebars, broken clutch and break levers, bent gear and brake pedals, scratched exhausts, shattered mirrors, bent and broken indicators, scuffed engine cases, and occasionally, cracked or 'holed' cases. In the parlance of the salvage dealers, what they tend to describe as 'light cosmetic damage'... though they often stretch that a long way!

'Light Cosmetic Damage' is the Bodger's delight, so many believing its all cheap and easy to fix, and you can save even more money by using second hand spares.... Unfortunately, the parts that are most vulnerable to 'LCD', are the ones you'll need, and the ones that will least frequently be available second hand! Though sometimes you can get 'lucky' and with things like cracked or holed engine cases, from engines that have been seized. Things like levers and mirrors though, you'll tend to buy new at around £15 a pair, and fixing LCD to get a bike through an MOT, with cracked indicator housings, can prove quite expensive! Anyway....

First of all, you need to look at the wheel alignment. Preferably with the bike stood up straight and on its centre stand. From the rear, the back wheel often looks like it is out of line, sitting a little to the left of centre. This is actually normal!

If the bars are 'off' to the front wheel, this could be just the foks twisted in the jokes, which is easy to sort out. But could be bent forks, or bars. OE Super Dream handlebars are actually quite strong, and being relatively narrow, often don't bend that easily.







Where to look for a CB125 Super-Dream
OK, well you want to buy one of these wonderful little machines. Where do you start? Where do you start looking for ANYTHING these days?! E-bay! It has a lot to answer for, and there's a heck of a lot of tat being offered on there for silly money, and more than a number of anomalies, like second hand CB125 gear-linkages being punted out at more than you can get a brand new pattern one for, but anyway.

E-bay is a pretty good starting place. Not the only place, but where most low priced bikes are being advertised these days. Other net resources include Gum-Tree, Pre-Loved and Piston-Heads as well as the more popular bike forums. These can chuck up some useful candidates, but they may not always be local or current. E-bay is pretty dynamic and usually has a good selection of bikes, at any one time.

Using e-bay, one bit of advice, ALWAYS try to see the bike before you bid, and DO NOT go into a bid frenzy, and pay over the odds, or pin your hopes on winning a particular auction. There's plenty of bikes out there, and if you don't win this one, there will be another along shortly!

But don't dismiss traditional media. Auto-Trader / Bike Trader are still going strong, as is MCN, though more ads are trade and prices more optimistic. Your local free-papers though often turn up great little bargains and are worth watching. But for real bargains, word of mouth often chucks up some of the best opportunities.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[Ziggy81scott]

Thank you for your post rogerborg that was interesting reading, when I bought my cd 125 benly I did want a 125 super dream but was unable to find one, I do like the super dreams styling and having rode a 250 version they are lovely bikes to ride.
I did notice in your post that the bikes are restricted in their factory spec, I am wondering if this could be the case with my bike, and if so I would be interest in finding out how to de restrict it. I'm aware that 2 strokes tend to be restricted via baffles in the exhaust and reed valves however I have no idea how they restrict a 4 stroke engine.

Maybe you could help?