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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 13:50 - 27 Mar 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

My worry is that the same problems keep cropping up throughout history and the solutions can sometimes be... dramatic.

At the turn of the 19th Century there was desire by the ruling classes to return the plebs to serfdom - the masses having dragged themselves out of the drudgery of 18 hours in the fields via the Industrial Revolution. And we have the echo now from the WEF (you vill eat ze boogs and live in ze pod and you vill be happy) as the masses embrace the Internet / tech revolution.

The 20th tried International Socialism (Communism) as a solution and lots of people died in the hundreds of millions. And at the same time National Socialism (Fascism) but only a few million people died so maybe we didn't give it a fair shake Laughing Laughing Laughing Between the WEF and extreme forms Socialism I can't see a way out that doesn't involve a very large stack of bodies Sad

The only thing the World hasn't tried at scale might be extreme Libertarianism (Anarchism) but that would mean a complete rejection of the contract society and a return to a high trust society. The good news is the stack of bodies would be much, much smaller. Parliament and Whitehall should suffice Smile
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 14:06 - 27 Mar 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:


The 20th tried International Socialism (Communism) as a solution and lots of people died in the hundreds of millions. And at the same time National Socialism (Fascism) but only a few million people died so maybe we didn't give it a fair shake Laughing Laughing Laughing Between the WEF and extreme forms Socialism I can't see a way out that doesn't involve a very large stack of bodies Sad


Calm down. Obsessing over histories extremes makes it easy to miss its more sensible compromises. Have a glass of water put your feet up, chill out a little then consider ordinary socialism over the middle part of the 20th century, particularly in the UK and then look at "social market economics". Here in the UK we managed to massively improve the lot of the majority and did it without piling up bodies. Unfortunately weve fallen foul of reactionary anti-progressive forces and missed out on truly developing into a society of mass affluence. There is a way out and it doesn't involve the histrionics of GNews and the Jeremy Vine show.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 14:19 - 27 Mar 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have to admit it's been a rough ride. Most people here lived through the strikes of the '70s & '80s. There but for the grace of god and all that. Brexit was another knife edge. I think we were very lucky that Farage was generally a nice bloke versus having someone like Trump heading up the show Shocked

Maybe I'm overreacting but I'm sure they all said the same in 1930s Germany and I have it on very good authority that our current government is very similar to that one Wink
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Islander
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PostPosted: 14:41 - 27 Mar 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
Back to the thread topic, this quote seems apposite to the swashbuckler problem:

Quote:
Fascist scumbag rhetoric


Without Googling try and guess the source Wink


Mosley.
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 15:27 - 27 Mar 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
You have to admit it's been a rough ride. Most people here lived through the strikes of the '70s & '80s. There but for the grace of god and all that. Brexit was another knife edge. I think we were very lucky that Farage was generally a nice bloke versus having someone like Trump heading up the show Shocked

Maybe I'm overreacting but I'm sure they all said the same in 1930s Germany and I have it on very good authority that our current government is very similar to that one Wink


You could easily have the perspective of "lived through the conversion of our economy from manufacturing to consumerism via monetisation policy" there but for the....uo oh here comes Jeremy Hunt et al.

Ive come to the opinion the root of the anxiety comes from people already at the lower end of the economy and social scale having very real fears that their value as not just workers but as citizens, even humans, is under threat from migrants. The thing is I doubt any of the whinging right wingers who weigh into the scene have much regard for these people either.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 19:08 - 27 Mar 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well of course there's always someone out to exploit the situation, Oswald Mosley being a classic example, right conclusions but wrong solutions but what would one expect from a member of the Fabian Society? Rolling Eyes

Working and Middle classes decimated by 2008 crash, the trust society giving way to the contractual, lack of housing, taxes rising, public infrastructure crumbling... do the people not have a right to feel anxious?
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 19:44 - 27 Mar 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ribenapigeon wrote:
I’ve come to the opinion the root of the anxiety comes from people already at the lower end of the economy and social scale having very real fears that their value as not just workers but as citizens, even humans, is under threat from migrants. The thing is I doubt any of the whinging right wingers who weigh into the scene have much regard for these people either.

Probably correct, and should worry us all, but at least the ‘right wingers’ (even the ludicrous, ‘fortunate son’ Trump) are saying stuff which the disadvantaged agree with. That’s quite telling on the centre-left establishment. Time was when the workers had dignity knowing they were contributing to the strength of the manufacturing nation. The hand car wash and chick’n’chips workforce won’t make the same contribution.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 20:38 - 27 Mar 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

The classic "Right Wing" barometer is this: if there were a war tomorrow how many would sign up to defend Britain? Less than 30% of Londoners would even be eligible.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 20:44 - 27 Mar 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats not difficult. I wouldn't be eligible either.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 22:09 - 27 Mar 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
Thats not difficult. I wouldn't be eligible either.


I wasn't even going there with mental competence Laughing Laughing Laughing
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grr666
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PostPosted: 23:00 - 27 Mar 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
The hand car wash and chick’n’chips workforce won’t make the same contribution.

But they are ever so good for laundering drug money, so there's that. Rolling Eyes
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 23:08 - 27 Mar 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

grr666 wrote:
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
The hand car wash and chick’n’chips workforce won’t make the same contribution.

But they are ever so good for laundering drug money, so there's that. Rolling Eyes


Also if you’ve ever wondered how a small town can accommodate so many barbers and nail bars.
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 01:24 - 28 Mar 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
The classic "Right Wing" barometer is this: if there were a war tomorrow how many would sign up to defend Britain? Less than 30% of Londoners would even be eligible.


And what percentage of those eligible would be capable?
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 01:27 - 28 Mar 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:

Probably correct, and should worry us all, but at least the ‘right wingers’ (even the ludicrous, ‘fortunate son’ Trump) are saying stuff which the disadvantaged agree with. That’s quite telling on the centre-left establishment. Time was when the workers had dignity knowing they were contributing to the strength of the manufacturing nation. The hand car wash and chick’n’chips workforce won’t make the same contribution.


Trump just knows how to press buttons, he has no interest in the substance of the issue. Those attracted to him simple mistake his disdain for government is born from the same root as theirs.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 14:46 - 28 Mar 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's worse? A populist that reflects the feelings of the mob or a "true" politician that manipulates the feelings of the mob Thinking
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 14:48 - 28 Mar 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
What's worse? A populist that reflects the feelings of the mob or a "true" politician that manipulates the feelings of the mob Thinking


Neither but peddling aphorisms doesn't attend rationally to an issue either.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 15:58 - 28 Mar 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neither? You mean both are equally bad or you would desire a third way? Wink
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 00:52 - 29 Mar 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about, we send the migrants to northern Ireland instead of Rwanda?
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 11:26 - 29 Mar 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ribenapigeon wrote:
How about, we send the migrants to northern Ireland instead of Rwanda?


It would place them closer to Éire which is a final destination for some. We'd be accused of being the same as the France or Belarus, weaponising migrants.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 15:38 - 29 Mar 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like my mum's leaving Cornwall at just the right time:

Newquay asylum seeker protests: Violence breaks out between anti-fascist protesters and police

This one won't play out quite how the black-block fascists would hope as the Cornish nationalists have gained quite a following over recent years.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 17:33 - 12 Aug 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dead bodies everywhere etc etc?
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 09:58 - 14 Aug 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
My worry is that the same problems keep cropping up throughout history and the solutions can sometimes be... dramatic.

At the turn of the 19th Century there was desire by the ruling classes to return the plebs to serfdom - the masses having dragged themselves out of the drudgery of 18 hours in the fields via the Industrial Revolution. And we have the echo now from the WEF (you vill eat ze boogs and live in ze pod and you vill be happy) as the masses embrace the Internet / tech revolution.

The 20th tried International Socialism (Communism) as a solution and lots of people died in the hundreds of millions. And at the same time National Socialism (Fascism) but only a few million people died so maybe we didn't give it a fair shake Laughing Laughing Laughing Between the WEF and extreme forms Socialism I can't see a way out that doesn't involve a very large stack of bodies Sad

The only thing the World hasn't tried at scale might be extreme Libertarianism (Anarchism) but that would mean a complete rejection of the contract society and a return to a high trust society. The good news is the stack of bodies would be much, much smaller. Parliament and Whitehall should suffice Smile



Ahh so it's the left thats trying to drag us back to some pre ww1 society not the right wing establishment who represent the rich elites who stood to lose the most from the process of social and economic progress that gained momentum during the later part of the 19thC and early decades of 20thC. Bolloks. If the left is about anything, at it's most basic it's about two things, seeing that people are paid properly and those same people have a fair say in how a state is run. The shite we're in today is because of the very effective campaign against those principles which has been persued by the establishment and corporate wealth over the last hundred years. You might he doing ok nicely nestled away no doubt in some vaguely affluent middle class tech support role to your superiors but will your grandchildren? Even if they follow in grandads footsteps once the establishment has completed its reactionary anti-progressive program they will be no better off than some office clerk in a Dickens novel.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 11:50 - 14 Aug 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's interesting how people wilfully misread things Wink

Let's start with something simple, true or false: the 20th Century tested both Left and Right political systems to the extreme.

Can we agree on that?
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 11:58 - 14 Aug 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

This one man one vote shite should be cancelled and only people of a certain intellgence be allowed to vote. Not quite Heinlen's Service guarantees citizenship but some sort of criteria used to determine who is mentally fit enough to make the sorts of decisions that are important.

There are many people that do not have a scooby about what goes on beyond the end of their nose. Christ, I live next to the archetypal dumb blond of dumb blonds who shouldn't be allowed to decide anything without a minder, let alone vote (big tits though). Anyone with a criminal record should be banned from voting as well as they have shown a disregard for society.

Trouble is it's going the other way. Labour will lower the voting age and to include people whose only practical knowledge in life is being looked after by their parents. Never worked. Never had to budget. Bank of Mum and Dad.

The future doesn't bode well.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 12:00 - 14 Aug 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
This one man one vote shite should be cancelled and only people of a certain intellgence be allowed to vote. Not quite Heinlen's Service guarantees citizenship but some sort of criteria used to determine who is mentally fit enough to make the sorts of decisions that are important.

There are many people that do not have a scooby about what goes on beyond the end of their nose. Christ, I live next to the archetypal dumb blond of dumb blonds who shouldn't be allowed to decide anything without a minder, let alone vote (big tits though). Anyone with a criminal record should be banned from voting as well as they have shown a disregard for society.



Eugenics, anyone?
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