shoulder check before signaling or before positioning?

[daifuco]

Hello. I have started my big bike training today. It has been a lot of fun but sadly it is not with my main instructor because he has sold the business.

I also like the other instructor but he teaches a different sequence when approaching junctions or roundabouts.

With my past instructor:
MIRRORS. Then SIGNALS. And then start manouvre starting with a shoulder check to the relevant side, then positioning...

With my current, older, old fashioned, instructor.
MIRROR, BLIND SPOT, SIGNAL!

I dont think I like this sequence, what is the point of checking over the shoulder if you are just going to put your signals on? Normally you dont position yourself right after signaling, so I feel I have to check again before positioning myself. Which feels a bit redundant.

I mentioned this to the instructor and he went a bit cocky, "this is my way!!"...

Which is the best way? Is there a better way or is it just opinions?


The new instructor is actually an old bloke (he actually taught my old instructor to ride bikes!!! and obviously he is not very flexible with his method, but I like the guy.

[Seventiesboy]

They all have their own ways.

I was taught OSM observe signal manoeuvre i.e. Mirror mirror shoulder signal move and lifesaver left or right just before you turn.

Worked for me.

Sounds like this guy wants the best for you, follow his advice and you will be OK

[pinkyfloyd]

We teach for junctions mirror, signal, shoulder check then move into position. As far as I am aware the other schools in the area also do the same teaching.

Turning from a major into a minor, mirror, signal, shoulder check, move into position and just before you turn if you are not stopping another quick shoulder check.
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[The999Kid]

[pinkyfloyd]

[stinkwheel]

Have we stopped calling them lifesavers then?

When I did my test, many moons ago it was:
Left mirror, right mirror. Shoulder check right, indicate. Lifesaver, position. Lifesaver, manouver.

For-every-junction. Unless there is no time to do the full sequence in a series of junctions like a staggered crossroads but still never a change of direction without a lifesaver first.

Lifesaver always done in the direction of the manouver.

EVEN IF the positioning on the junction to turn left is such that there is no room for a car to squeeze up your inside, a pedestrian or cyclist could be coming down the pavement either from behind you or to your left.
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[Rogerborg]

It's not worth arguing about, your instructor isn't going to change his mind.

On test, do enough big obvious observations to satisfy the examiner. If you pass, you win.

After you pass, do whatever you want. If you live, you win.
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[pinkyfloyd]

[stinkwheel]

[Taught2BCauti...]

I only started riding bikes fairly recently, but when I was being taught to drive a car, I learned that you never use your mirrors without checking your blind spots aswell, and you always do this before signalling, changing speed, or changing course.

On my first CBT, the instructor told everyone that observations are different on a bike to a car - but they aren't, or at least they should be.
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[Wednesday Biker]

I did it the first way and passed.
But if your instructor is saying do it the other way, then do it like that tbh.

[daifuco]

the thing is that we are expected to turn on the signal well in advance. So if I do a lifesaver before signaling I am going to have to do another lifesaver before positioning myself. And before crossing the junction/roundabout another one to check for bicycles or whatever.
I find it a bit redundant.
But I have started implementing it today and it is ok.

Another thing I dont like too much of the older guy is that he focuses too much on what gear I am on. He was pushing me to gear up even though I was only 2.5k rpm and the E6RN was a bit funny going so low in revs.

The ER6N did not feel in steroids like the Hornet felt, so I was happy keeping it mid range. I guess I will have to pretend I am gearing up to keep him happy xD

Anyway he is in his 60's and he does not even have a car licence so he is my hero.

[stinkwheel]

My car driving instructor told me not to keep checking my blind spots when I did my test.

I ignored him on the basis that I've never heard of someone failing a test for doing too many appropriate observations. I'd also already been riding motorcycles for 5 years by that point and so had a good enough idea of how big said blind spots are to feel very uncomfortable performing a manouver without checking them.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Teflon-Mike]

"Observations" - Before a maneuver
"Checks" - during a maneuver

Observation
Signal
Check
Maneuver

I used to teach a rear obs as a full head turn to look directly behind, turning your shoulders from the waste to make it clear to instructor / examiner it was a full rear obs.. while for a shoulder check was a 'glance' into the dead zone over the shoulder.. past the mirrors, without necessarily turning shoulders.

Seems that these days, so many coming up through DAS having got sloppy and mirror dependent in cars before learning to ride, it's now 'acceptable' to use mirrors for rear obs, where once they were merely an 'aid' to a either without being either.... pays your money & takes your chances..
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[Rogerborg]

[DVSA Derek]

I wouldn't compare it to checking on blind spots in a car. You often don't need to check blind spots in a car, for example on a fast moving dual carriageway before changing lanes, as correct use of the mirrors before and during the manoeuvre gives you enough information on which to base your driving plan.

Personally speaking, on the bike, I will shoulder check before applying signals - simply because the mirror awareness, coupled with shoulder checking may confirm I don't actually need a signal at all, or confirm delaying my signal.

However, you have to consider that there are differences in the sequence of OSM people carry out. Doesn't mean there is only one way to do it. There are several different ways to take effective observations - each perfectly acceptable. It doesn't take a massive head movement, or a twist right round to perform obs - just demonstrate an awareness of your surroundings.
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[Pigeon]

I always think of them as two things strangely. A shoulder check is lane position change, a lifesaver is pre-turn.

Do the shoulder check and signal so close together they are one movement. But surely the shoulder check should be done first (by a nano second).

What is the signal, to indicate to others your intention. You surely don't intend to turn across the path of something else.

If you have someone steaming up your outside and you're about to turn right, indicating might cause them to freak out and jump on the brakes and steam into the back of you.

Do your shoulder check, if there is something there, bug out of the manoeuvre, no indication, no re-position (except maybe away from the hazard) and live to fight another day.
I don't see the point in indicating if there is no chance of you actually making that manoeuvre.

If the shoulder check is ok, stick the indicator on and initiate the change of road position, then the final lifesaver and carry out the turn.

So for changes in roads / junctions:
Mirrors -> Shoulder check -> indicate -> road position -> Lifesaver -> turn.

Changes in lanes on motorway
Mirrors -> Shoulder check -> indicate -> road position ie lane change (shoulder check + indicator are near seamless).

[stinkwheel]

[Wednesday Biker]

I only had one lesson before I took my test just to iron out a few things but mostly on the test I just did what I felt i needed to do.
Got two minors but they weren't for obs.
You probably have to trust yourself on the test and do the obs you feel you need to be doing.
If you start thinking ooh ooh must do ob here, it might end up being a robotic ride with un needed shoulder checks.
I got a bee in my bonnet and had read so many conflicting ways of doing things but in the end I thought I'm going to have to ride naturally and not over think this.

[Pigeon]

[northernsky]

I was told to check mirrors then blind spot, signal,
final life saver before turning
my neck was killing me after a few days instruction! if that's what it takes to pass though

[Wednesday Biker]

I always thought indicating was to show your intention but it was only intention, not I am doing this right now pal so tough shit.
I only checked mirrors before signalling and blind spot before a manoeuvre.
If that's not the right way then the examiner must have fancied me or something cos I passed

[Nobby the Bastard]

Surely the whole point of the lifesaver is that you do it immediately before you actually make the maneouvre to ensure that there isn't anything in or about to enter the space you are about to move into?

Hence the name...
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[daifuco]

[Hefty]