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MCN
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 Posted: 14:41 - 09 Sep 2015  Post subject: BA Plane Engine Fire Las Vagas |
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34193767
Bugmuncher 
She must love Currant Cake then.
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| grr666 |
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grr666
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Posted: 15:01 - 09 Sep 2015  Post subject: |
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I thought when you evacuated a plane you were supposed to leave your hand luggage behind. Nobody seems
to have paid any attention to that, they all have their cabin baggage. Some people are derp.
Crappy american engine failed.
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MCN
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| The Artist |
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The Artist
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Posted: 15:43 - 09 Sep 2015  Post subject: |
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ATC recording of the event.
Pretty cool. They were already re-routing planes before the mayday call.
https://clyp.it/jrvdzhrw |
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| Llama-Farmer |
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Llama-Farmer
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Posted: 20:31 - 09 Sep 2015  Post subject: |
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| The Artist wrote: | ATC recording of the event.
Pretty cool. They were already re-routing planes before the mayday call.
https://clyp.it/jrvdzhrw |
I don't know that they were... listening to it, Speedbird (BA) was cleared for takeoff Rwy 07L.
Shortly after Speedbird started rolling they cleared Skywest 4770 to "line-up and wait Rwy 07L, wake turbulence"
Wake turbulence is severe turbulence caused by aircraft taking off and landing... the B777 is a "heavy" category, which can generate wake turbulence severe enough to literally flip another airliner... hence the line up and wait instruction.
Sounds like the controller saw the Speedbird stopping and instructed the aircraft she was going to land AFTER the Skywest had taken off to go-around climbing straight ahead to 7000ft. They were probably several miles away at the time, a couple of minutes at least, but easier to get them going around sooner, so they can be handed from Tower back to Radar who can organise their way back into the hold.
A few calls got stepped on which can cause a problem (and that was part of the problem in the Tenerife Disaster, that radio calls got "stepped on" or interrupted) so hard to hear what was being said to who/by who.
Reason it took so long for the Speedbird call is that informing ATC is a low priority... it's an over-used saying in the flying world... but ANC... Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. In that order, always.
Aviate in this case would be maintaining control of the aircraft, immediate emergency actions (as per the checklist or memory items), stopping on the runway or negotiating the aircraft so the fire is downwind and flames/smoke blown away from the cabin (unlike British Airtours Manchester disaster!), only when you've done that is informing ATC a priority.
With the amount of training you do, you can often combine actions and a simple "Callsign stopping" can be done whilst performing other actions, and again, you don't need to give them a life story on the radio, a simple 2-word call is all thats needed at first... then when time permits and priorities are dealt with, a more-informed call.
The flight crew, cabin crew, ATC and RFFS handled it absolutely fantastically, although there was a large number of exceptionally selfish passengers stopping to get hand luggage before evacuating, delaying the people stuck behind them.
Make no mistake, they really did endanger peoples lives. It's the smoke that kills in an aircraft fire, not the flames or the heat. Lucky it was only minor injuries and that is almost impossible to prevent in an evac (you're jumping several metres down a near-vertical slide onto a concrete/tarmac surface, ankles and legs do get broken)
It's about time airline flight crew got some good press for a change, I was starting to get fucked off with everyone having digs at the crew and blaming them and throwing around things like "pilot error" without having a clue what it actually means, and the number of people saying stuff like "the autopilot does everything for you"... well actually it does very little other than exactly what you tell it to do, it's like cruise control in a car, nothing more, nothing less, and it couldn't deal with something like that.
There's a reason pilots are trained so hard and so well, and most of the time a pilot will go through their whole career never having to use their emergency-drill training... but when they do... as we saw today, we train for and get paid for what we CAN do when we need to, not what we do do when we don't. Glorified bus driver my arse.
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| MCN |
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MCN
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| Posted: 22:00 - 09 Sep 2015 Post subject: |
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A thing that is interesting about ATC was the incident at CDG France
where one plane collided with another during hold or taxi.. ???
The crux of the thing was ATC in France stubbornly used French as their 'official' comms language where as international standard was that English was commonly used.
The Frog ATC would speak English to English speakers and French to French Speakers.
Pilots also monitor the babble on radio and there was some blame apportioned to the fact the Frogs ATC were directing a French plane onto the same runway as the English speaking plane which was hit.
The argument exists that had ATC been speaking only in English the pilots of the shorts would have heard the order to put another aircraft on their runway and could have taken evasive action and left the runway before the MD 83 got to them.
Unfortunately a pilot was killed.
Pg 56 of the report:
"Communications with the crew of the MD 83 were made in French, those with the crew of the Shorts in English."
Report here
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Llama-Farmer
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| MCN |
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MCN
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| Posted: 00:43 - 10 Sep 2015 Post subject: |
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In addition to the issues of traffic and 'flying' the bluddy things there are other concerns that aircrew must accommodate.
Almost all machinery/equipment runs with some imperfections.
Pilots are issued with the engineering/maintenance report for the Aircraft.
This informs the crew what defects they have to 'work around'.
They may not be defects that ground an aircraft and can very easily be managed safely.
Things like a overhead door lock not locking, a seat back stuck in up-right position and various non essentials.
The important stuff like a reverse thrust not functioning at 100% is of more concern but only because other braking devices have to work harder to stop the aircraft.
All normal in hard working airliners. Nothing on it's own will be 'dangerous'.
The problem is when all the little things line up all at once and cause unpredictable things to happen or they overwhelm the crew.
I was a passenger on an internal flight from Lagos to Sapele in Nigeria. We'd lined up and were bombing down the runway almost at rotation speed when the aircraft screeched to a complete stop. (I almost lost my eyeballs.  )
The pilot got us off the runway and headed back to the yard. He explained that there was warning light for a back door so was going to have a tech look at it. The tech had a look, adjusted something and was about to leave when the pilot had a chat with him.
We got ready to leave again then the pilot explained that the door was fixed but just in case he had told the tech that he was coming with us.
Flying African Airlines is usually scary.
When you see the number of airlines banned from Europe loads are from African countries. I think Nigerian Airlines (the National carrier) were banned from flying over Europe some while ago.
Famous crash at San Paulo Brazil was 'not helped' by poor aircraft maintenance and bad weather. Since the runway was wet and there was a monsoon style rain shower as the aircraft landed they needed full use of reverse thrust as tyre would aquaplane on the torrent of water over the runway.
The runway was also not long enough for the aircraft recommended runway landing distance. But the crews had been managing. Probably in good weather with fully functioning aircraft.
That aircraft continued down the runway smashed through the perimeter fence, crossed a main highway and ploughed into the 'airline's' Head Quarters where there were massive Kerosene tanks. Horrendous disaster.
Again a stack up of defects.
If the plane had been 100%, if the runway was long enough, if the weather was better and if there wasn't a massive fuel bunker at the end of the runway then the disaster would have had a much less serious outcome.
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| Llama-Farmer |
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Llama-Farmer
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Posted: 10:02 - 10 Sep 2015  Post subject: |
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| MCN wrote: |
Famous crash at San Paulo Brazil was 'not helped' by poor aircraft maintenance and bad weather. Since the runway was wet and there was a monsoon style rain shower as the aircraft landed they needed full use of reverse thrust as tyre would aquaplane on the torrent of water over the runway.
The runway was also not long enough for the aircraft recommended runway landing distance. But the crews had been managing. Probably in good weather with fully functioning aircraft.
That aircraft continued down the runway smashed through the perimeter fence, crossed a main highway and ploughed into the 'airline's' Head Quarters where there were massive Kerosene tanks. Horrendous disaster.
Again a stack up of defects.
If the plane had been 100%, if the runway was long enough, if the weather was better and if there wasn't a massive fuel bunker at the end of the runway then the disaster would have had a much less serious outcome. |
Yeah, the runway was incorrectly constructed so water didn't drain off it, the airport should have closed the runway as it was unsuitable in that weather.
The u/s thrust reverser was not an issue, but the crew only retarded the LH thrust lever to idle, and left the RH (with no reverse) in CL (climb) mode.
This meant even though the spoilers were ARMED (and should therefore automatically deploy with idle power and weight on the wheels) they did not, because both thrust levers have to be in idle position.
When one or more thrust levers is moved to idle, the Autothrottle disengages... this caused the RH in CL mode to accelerate to climb power. The LH in idle mode engaged reverse thrust... so you had massive asymmetric forces turning the a/c to the left.
The investigation could not determine whether it was mechanical (and the aircraft systems left the thrust in CL mode) or if it was human error (and the crew failed to follow correct procedure and retard both thrust levers).
But the investigation didn't determine the runway was not a suitable length.
But yes you have an MEL (minimum equipment list) which is set by the airline and approved by the authorities (CAA in the UK, FAA in USA etc) and that is taken from, and as restrictive or more restrictive than the MMEL (master minimum equipment list) which is set by the manufacturer (Boeing, Airbus, Embraer etc)
If an item is unserviceable, you refer to the MEL and it will tell you whether it is a limiting item or not, and will usually have some kind of restriction and a time-limit, so must be repaired within 3 days or 6 "sectors", or perhaps can only be flown without pax to an engineering base for the purpose of being fixed.
Many many things that are fitted to the aircraft are not actually required to be working. The MEL covers flight operation rather than cabin comfort though, so stuff that doesn't actually affect the operation of the flight (IFE systems, galleys etc) are not bothered with.
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MCN
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| Posted: 11:16 - 10 Sep 2015 Post subject: |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 11 years, 3 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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