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Im-a-Ridah
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Joined: 20 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: 00:22 - 03 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 wrote:
CaNsA wrote:
I think that those who are in favour of, or have no problem with, the snoopers charter should create a thread in random banter.
Each person should:-
Post their location every hour.
Upload their browsing history at the end of each day.
Post the contents of all text messages and emails.
Upload recordings of all incoming and outgoing phonecalls.


My location is known by my phone service provider.
My ISP knows my browsing history
My phone provider know the contents of my text messages.

We could go on. If my name was Mohamed and I was suddenly buying a ton of fertiliser and taking flying lessons, I should imagine the powers that be would suddenly become interested in my home and Internet use, just as they already do.

Being a middle aged bloke posting on BCF, I doubt they can be arsed to put the time or effort into researching what parts I bought online for the Campervan conversion this week.

It's hardly Big Brother comrade. Lay off the midget porn and all will be good. Wink


However if you were a human rights campaigner then they would be a lot, lot more interested in you.
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smegballs
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PostPosted: 01:05 - 03 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 wrote:

We could go on. If my name was Mohamed and I was suddenly buying a ton of fertiliser and taking flying lessons, I should imagine the powers that be would suddenly become interested in my home and Internet use, just as they already do.

Being a middle aged bloke posting on BCF, I doubt they can be arsed to put the time or effort into researching what parts I bought online for the Campervan conversion this week.

It's hardly Big Brother comrade. Lay off the midget porn and all will be good. Wink


So if it's all so vague as to not be worth worrying about.... why do they need it?

The normal progression of initial suspicion > application for a warrant based on preliminary evidence > more invasive investigative methods authorised works fine. Invasive methods are available, but they must be authorised first based on facts, which is a pretty reasonable system IMO.

Just like lots of these laws, the actually naughty people just employ countermeasures, whilst normal people end up with dodgy convictions.

Take the obscenity laws, they are for locking up perverts and deviants right? How about the guy that got busted for the "tiger video" and is now labelled a sex-criminal in the eyes of his local community? He got off on appeal, the third appeal (which just shows why you should fight all the way to the top). Got in a bit of a drunken scuffle, and police look through phone. Nothing comes of the scuffle legally but all of a sudden he is now being charged under obscene pornography laws....
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Ste
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Joined: 01 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: 01:19 - 03 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
smegballs wrote:
police look through phone.

Devices being remotely wiped in police custody

All the data on some of the tablets and phones seized as evidence is being wiped out, remotely, while they are in police custody, the BBC has learned.

Cambridgeshire, Derbyshire, Nottingham and Durham police all told BBC News handsets had been remotely "wiped".

And Dorset police said this had happened to six of the seized devices it had in custody, within one year.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-29464889
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 09:09 - 03 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
staffy50 wrote:
If all this just stops one terrorist attack would it be worth it? Or helps the police convict a paedo so he stops hurting children?

I can see the benefit. My biggest worry would be how the ISP keeps this data safe. Without clarification on that its a big worry.


You really think they want this power to protect the UK from terrorism or catch peadophiles? Its just power for the sake of power.
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Rogerborg
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Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 09:34 - 03 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ribenapigeon wrote:
You really think they want this power to protect the UK from terrorism or catch peadophiles?

Er, yes. Yes, I do.

That's not what it will be used for - thanks in part to the performance targets that May "scrapped" in name only - but let's distinguish intention and implementation.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 12:05 - 03 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
Ribenapigeon wrote:
You really think they want this power to protect the UK from terrorism or catch peadophiles?

Er, yes. Yes, I do.

That's not what it will be used for - thanks in part to the performance targets that May "scrapped" in name only - but let's distinguish intention and implementation.


This is what I think. Yes, they want it to fight terrorism, cyber-espionage (don't forget that one, it's a rapidly growing problem, also with connotations for national security - perhaps even more significant than terrorism) etc, but as we know, governments/police have a tendency to misuse/abuse powers they are given too.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 14:32 - 03 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
smegballs wrote:

So if it's all so vague as to not be worth worrying about.... why do they need it?

The normal progression of initial suspicion > application for a warrant based on preliminary evidence > more invasive investigative methods authorised works fine. Invasive methods are available, but they must be authorised first based on facts, which is a pretty reasonable system IMO.

Just like lots of these laws, the actually naughty people just employ countermeasures, whilst normal people end up with dodgy convictions.

Take the obscenity laws, they are for locking up perverts and deviants right? How about the guy that got busted for the "tiger video" and is now labelled a sex-criminal in the eyes of his local community? He got off on appeal, the third appeal (which just shows why you should fight all the way to the top). Got in a bit of a drunken scuffle, and police look through phone. Nothing comes of the scuffle legally but all of a sudden he is now being charged under obscene pornography laws....


The people doing these investigations are detectives, and they are all about their promotions and such, and getting someone for some kind of "sex-criminal" would surely help their prospects!

As you say its extremely hard to protect the privacy and civil liberties of normal people against cops/intel.

Ste wrote:

Devices being remotely wiped in police custody

All the data on some of the tablets and phones seized as evidence is being wiped out, remotely, while they are in police custody, the BBC has learned.

Cambridgeshire, Derbyshire, Nottingham and Durham police all told BBC News handsets had been remotely "wiped".

And Dorset police said this had happened to six of the seized devices it had in custody, within one year.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-29464889


Dorset Police don't have a computer crime department. In most cases having remote wipe would help the police if they got there quick enough as they could get Apple to unlock the phone remotely.

mpd72 wrote:

Because it's not people like you or I they are worried about and not us that this change is being made because of.

It's the Mohamed's with a liking for buying weed killer in bulk, that sort of thing. It's the people who give the authorities something worth looking into.


It's unlikely these powers would have prevented 7/7 or the Lee Rigby attack. Espionage from inside the terrorist community would be the most effective method.
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Ste
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Joined: 01 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: 14:37 - 03 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Im-a-Ridah wrote:
In most cases having remote wipe would help the police if they got there quick enough as they could get Apple to unlock the phone remotely.

uwotm8? Laughing
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smegballs
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Joined: 28 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: 15:02 - 03 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Last edited by smegballs on 17:02 - 18 May 2021; edited 1 time in total
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 15:05 - 03 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
Im-a-Ridah wrote:
In most cases having remote wipe would help the police if they got there quick enough as they could get Apple to unlock the phone remotely.

uwotm8? Laughing


If the police contact Apple when they seize the phone they can ask them to unlock the phone using the same web interface as wiping it. Also remote wipe can be prevented by storing the phones in a Faraday cage. All they need is a roll of tin foil.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 15:18 - 03 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
I believe that in general, the police don't store phones in such places. Wink

Once it's been wiped, there isn't anything on the phone for Apple or anyone else to unlock. Game over for the police.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 20:04 - 03 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
I believe that in general, the police don't store phones in such places. Wink

Once it's been wiped, there isn't anything on the phone for Apple or anyone else to unlock. Game over for the police.


Clearly many police do not store the phones in such places, as evidenced by them being wiped remotely. However this a wide power, and it also includes much more competent investigators such as the people at the National Technical Assistance Centre (NTAC) and GCHQ, and they're far more likely to put the phones into shielded evidence bags! Once it's been wiped is one thing, but look at the sequence of events. They raid you/nick you, take your phone, you go into a custody cell, they contact Apple and unlock the phone and image it, you get released from custody then go home and wipe the phone.
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grr666
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Joined: 16 Jun 2014
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PostPosted: 20:21 - 03 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Honestly thought this was a thread about Angela Merkel.
She should fear a bullet far for her crimes against our freedom far more than May should.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 20:26 - 03 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Apple cannot decrypt your phone.
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Rogerborg
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Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 20:39 - 03 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
Apple cannot decrypt your phone.

"WINK"
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 21:11 - 03 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
Apple cannot decrypt your phone.


Didn't say anything about encryption. If they can remote lock, they can remote unlock. Sure, you can disable find my iphone, but that also disables remote wipe.

As for encryption, it works differently on different iphones. The core problem with iphone encryption is the 4 digit pin, which is basically worthless. If the person trying to get access can get an image of the device and make the password guesses on the image rather than the device then they're in instantly. There also side channel attacks against the iphone screen lock which take days. In the UK specific case and following the theme of thread about police and spooks then your bigger issue would be RIPA part 3 and upto 5 years for failing to provide the crypto key!
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FlightRisk
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Joined: 08 Jul 2014
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PostPosted: 23:45 - 03 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 wrote:

Because it's not people like you or I they are worried about and not us that this change is being made because of.

It's the Mohamed's with a liking for buying weed killer in bulk, that sort of thing. It's the people who give the authorities something worth looking into.


Ah yes, those totally reliable and ever so wise 'authorities'. Rolling Eyes

How about supporters of anti-establishment fringe political parties?
Like UKIP.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 01:04 - 04 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
FlightRisk wrote:
mpd72 wrote:

Because it's not people like you or I they are worried about and not us that this change is being made because of.

It's the Mohamed's with a liking for buying weed killer in bulk, that sort of thing. It's the people who give the authorities something worth looking into.


Ah yes, those totally reliable and ever so wise 'authorities'. Rolling Eyes

How about supporters of anti-establishment fringe political parties?
Like UKIP.


The amount of votes UKIP got, they aren't fringe
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:44 - 04 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
FlightRisk wrote:
How about supporters of anti-establishment fringe political parties?
Like UKIP.

A minority party with an insignificant number of supporters that's dedicated to destroying the United Kingdom? I think it's spelled "SNP".
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Last edited by Rogerborg on 11:01 - 04 Nov 2015; edited 1 time in total
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CaNsA
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PostPosted: 14:09 - 04 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
The dozy bitch!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34715872

https://i.imgur.com/qpXkS9h.png
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ScaredyCat
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PostPosted: 14:10 - 04 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Draft InvestigatoryPowers Bill ...

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/473770/Draft_Investigatory_Powers_Bill.pdf
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 14:25 - 04 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
TBH I would be utterly amazed if all this isn't going on already.

If newspapers can hack phones and the internet you can bet the authorities are doing it as well.
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