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Snod Blatter
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PostPosted: 11:01 - 14 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't a lot of this already happening with Tempora? What's the difference? To make it legal here?
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ScaredyCat
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PostPosted: 11:06 - 14 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nexus Icon wrote:
The happenings in Paris should ensure a sway in public opinion on this matter.

Snoopers Charter in 10... 9... 8...



It'll turn out, just like the last time in France, that their security services had been monitoring these people already.

I see little point in increasing the size haystack in which you have to search to find that pin.
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CaNsA
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PostPosted: 14:03 - 14 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some valid points...

Quote:
Before France takes advantage of what happened (again) to pass even more draconian laws "to protect people against terrorists", it's important to remember that it passed a mass surveillance law months ago, and these awful attacks still happened!


https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/3sr79f/before_france_takes_advantage_of_what_happened/
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Ste
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PostPosted: 14:35 - 14 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Be it to genuinely protect the public or not, mass survelance of internet usage will result in a whack-a-mole situation, similar to how there is with bit torrent sites. One type of encryption or VPN provider or whatever gets busted, five more will pop up.

Confused
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 15:57 - 14 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snod Blatter wrote:
Isn't a lot of this already happening with Tempora? What's the difference? To make it legal here?


From what I can gather it's already legal here, they've just been signing the legal stuff behind closed doors using the Telecommunications Act. With this they want to have a legal basis that is more open and public in nature.

Ste wrote:
Be it to genuinely protect the public or not, mass survelance of internet usage will result in a whack-a-mole situation, similar to how there is with bit torrent sites. One type of encryption or VPN provider or whatever gets busted, five more will pop up.

Confused


Encryption doesn't get busted, in communications situations it gets circumvented by stealing keys, backdooring certificate providers or whatever else they are up to. Doing Bletchley Park style busting of encryption algorithms just isn't feasible. There are two options in that case, brute forcing or cryptanalysis. Brute force will only work if the password is weak. If they go the brute forcing route there's an upper bound on how much money and resources they can afford to throw at you. A password of 11 mixed case letters, numbers and a symbol will keep their supercomputer tied up for on average a year. Make that 12 characters and that'll be about a century. You'll want headroom though, so for the NSA 13 characters would be the minimum.

Even if an encryption algorithm is broken, it can still keep NSA/cops out in reality. Take RC5 as an example, it's broken. All they need to get the key is... 2^44 items (16 terabytes) of your data unencrypted, of their choice, which isn't particularly realistic. The weak algorithms are those designed to be weak from the outset, so things like DES56, and the A5 algorithm used in GSM.

Unfortunately they get all the zero days for Windows first, so the deck is completely stacked.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 16:10 - 14 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
Encryption doesn't get busted, in communications situations it gets circumvented by stealing keys, backdooring certificate providers or whatever else they are up to.

I'm speaking more hypothetically, at some point brute forcing and cryptanalysis will realistically work.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 16:39 - 14 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
Im-a-Ridah wrote:
Encryption doesn't get busted, in communications situations it gets circumvented by stealing keys, backdooring certificate providers or whatever else they are up to.

I'm speaking more hypothetically, at some point brute forcing and cryptanalysis will realistically work.


Those are the most inefficient ways of defeating encryption, so they're always a last resort. Assuming a strong password, the physics just doesn't work for brute forcing. To brute force AES256 for example, you need 2^44 (17592186044416) of the world's fastest supercomputer. AES128 isn't much easier. As the name says 2^128 possible keys, thats 3.4028e+038 (loads of zeros), its just beyond reality. Even if the key was something more bruteforce-able with a supercomputer like 2^64 bits, roughly a 11 character mixed case letters and numbers password, they'll just play the man not the ball and go after you instead.

Cryptanalysis is essentially an academic activity. GCHQ and the NSA do it for assurance purposes. Academics do it for stuff to publish in journals. The "breaks" they come up with, even really really good ones require vast amounts of know plain texts and stupid amounts of computational time. If some was paranoid in the extreme they could just use cascades of different algorithms, and increase the number of rounds.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:48 - 16 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here it comes. Surveillance money-hose be gushing now.

Question: if we're increasing funding and manpower and restricting freedoms, does that mean that we're winning? Thinking
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 10:47 - 16 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

How many radicalised muslims in the UK? A number in the low thousands? How many terrorist attacks in the UK? Not many. Who feels they can't move around the country because they might get caught up in a terrorist attack?

Who feels restricted by surveillance? Who can honestly say their life has been affected by it?

Our streets aren't filled with armed police (not sure how many you see in London these days, but outside of there I don't see many). In fact with cuts in government funding, there are fewer and fewer police of any kind on the streets.

Aren't these the real measures of whether or not we're winning? So far, I'd say we are.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:15 - 16 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doubling spending on airport security kabuki. I now prefer the Glasgow <-> London train over the plane. Or rather, I detest the train very slightly less than doing the shoe-scan-shuffle. So yes, my travel has been effected.

Is the number of excitables rising or falling? The best we can say is that the hottest heads are sodding off to get slotted in Syria and Iraq.

Cameron keeps banging on about a "generational struggle", but what's puzzling me is the secret plan for winning the hearts and "minds" of this lot:

https://royspearsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Islam-will-dominate.jpg

How do you engage and negotiate with a population whose only demand is that you go to hell?

This is not a rhetorical question.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 11:38 - 16 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Doubling spending on airport security kabuki. I now prefer the Glasgow <-> London train over the plane. Or rather, I detest the train very slightly less than doing the shoe-scan-shuffle. So yes, my travel has been effected.


Given the possible effects of an unchecked terrorist campaign in the UK (say, compared to the IRA at the height of it's mainland bombing campaign when there were armed police checkpoints on the streets of London for example), would you not say this is a fair exchange? Your life doesn't appear to have been radically altered by terrorism?

Quote:
Is the number of excitables rising or falling? The best we can say is that the hottest heads are sodding off to get slotted in Syria and Iraq.


And yet, still your life hasn't been radically affected. Would it be by this "snooper's charter"?

Quote:
Cameron keeps banging on about a "generational struggle", but what's puzzling me is the secret plan for winning the hearts and "minds" of this lot:

https://royspearsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Islam-will-dominate.jpg

How do you engage and negotiate with a population whose only demand is that you go to hell?

This is not a rhetorical question.


Well, apparently you can't. You root them out where you can find them, you take measures to stop more entering the country (which may affect you if you travel overseas a lot - but will it vastly change the lives of a large number of people here?), and you protect your interests abroad.

You're an intelligent man with the ability to think - if the problem gets worse, you would take measures to control it. Now, we aren't privy to the files of MI5/MI6, and can't expect to be made so if they are to do their job effectively, so we don't really know how serious the threat is. Maybe we don't trust our authorities to use our information in a morally acceptable way. But when there is a real and credible threat to national security (anybody reckon Islamic terrorism isn't?), then we perhaps have to put up with some inconveniences if we are to effectively fight that. The trick is to get the balance right. Do you have a better way?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:41 - 16 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
airport security kabuki

Given the possible effects of an unchecked terrorist campaign in the UK (say, compared to the IRA at the height of it's mainland bombing campaign when there were armed police checkpoints on the streets of London for example), would you not say this is a fair exchange?

No, I wouldn't. It's largely theatre. We could walk on naked (and that would 'radically affect' your happiness) and still be blown to bits by a bomb slung in the hold by a baggage monkey.

chickenstrip wrote:
Your life doesn't appear to have been radically altered by terrorism?

You don't define being required to go through an elaborate performance to prove my innocence when I want to fly a radical alteration? I do.


chickenstrip wrote:
Quote:
Is the number of excitables rising or falling? The best we can say is that the hottest heads are sodding off to get slotted in Syria and Iraq.

And yet, still your life hasn't been radically affected.

I disagree. I vehemently object to being treated as guilty by default. This is a war of ideology. What is it that we're trying to preserve? "Freedom can go to hell", remember.

Do you travel a lot?


chickenstrip wrote:
The trick is to get the balance right. Do you have a better way?

Effective profiling.

This would piss off the minority being profiled, and I fully agree that it should. However, I don't give a toss, because it would stop me and the majority (for now) of UK citizens having to jump through farcical hoops in the name of equality.
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FlightRisk
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PostPosted: 13:04 - 16 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Above crypto-bollocks that I don't understand reminded me of this: Very Happy

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/security.png
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 14:40 - 16 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:

No, I wouldn't. It's largely theatre. We could walk on naked (and that would 'radically affect' your happiness) and still be blown to bits by a bomb slung in the hold by a baggage monkey.


Look, I'm not as intelligent as you. I never got beyond 'O' Levels at school Sad Please explain the "theatre" comment.
I don't quite understand where you are coming from. Our intelligence services claim to have prevented a number of terrorist attacks. Do you know what steps they took to discover and foil these? Do you know that if they had done nothing, nothing would have happened? Do you think these claims are outright lies? Is it all just a conspiracy? (Please cite your sources if you know for a fact that it is just this). To achieve what exactly? It is in my mind that if we have seen no terrorist attacks of any significance then it may be that it is not necessary at this time to introduce further powers to spy on us, and possibly there are already too many in place. It also does occur to me that our lords and masters may be over-reacting, panicking unnecessarily even, but you would agree there is a threat?

There is always the possibility of terrorist attacks being successful. Do you think we should do nothing and just accept it? No, of course you don't.

Quote:

You don't define being required to go through an elaborate performance to prove my innocence when I want to fly a radical alteration? I do.


If the threat is as we are told, no. This is what it depends upon. I am quite ready to admit I don't have enough information to properly decide if we are getting the balance right. As said, IF our intelligence services are acting purely in our best interests in the best way that they can, to real threats that actually exist, then perhaps these are reasonable steps. I really don't know. Do you?

Quote:
I vehemently object to being treated as guilty by default. This is a war of ideology. What is it that we're trying to preserve? "Freedom can go to hell", remember.


I fully understand that, but again, I don't have enough information to be absolutely sure that this isn't necessary. I am in the dark, as I suspect are most of us. Yes, we wish to preserve our freedom and privacy, but we also wish to preserve our lives. it is indeed a war of ideology, but it is not just a war of words. There are others who seek to remove our freedoms and our lives in much more spectacular (struggling for the right word there!) ways than our authorities.

Quote:
Do you travel a lot?


No, I don't. So help me out. Describe to me a typical journey you take, highlighting how your freedom has been curtailed, and how your privacy has been unacceptably violated. You may be right for all I know, and you could quite possibly change my perspective.


Quote:
Effective profiling.


Sorry, remember I'm a bit thick. Describe the mechanics of this as you see it.

I am open-minded about these things, and understand that there may be certain information that our government and intelligence services cannot make available to the general public, so we will perhaps never know how serious the threat is. I have taken on board the comments from yourself and others about eroding our freedom and rights, and I do not dismiss them. I am just trying to understand these things a bit more. We could stop all surveillance and investigation beyond those you say to profile. But then, how will we know who to profile? Just those who make their views public, and step into the limelight? You make it sound like you think it is all very easy, but I'm not convinced that it is.

I am neither trying to point-score here, nor tell you that you are quite wrong. How refreshing is that? Laughing
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ScaredyCat
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PostPosted: 14:57 - 16 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Please explain the "theatre" comment.


It's not real security.

You'll remember that while we were all being searched, made to leave our bottles of water in a giant container in the centre of the security section - which if they had been explosive, something nobody actually believed, it would have been the worst place for it all to be. While we we all taking our shoes, belts and false legs off, while we were having nail clippers taken away...

While all this was going on, they were slinging cargo onto passenger planes that hadn't even been checked.

It is the appearance of security with no security, it's play acting, it's theatre.


Look at all the recent attacks, in all of them, including Paris the other night, the people (at least one from Paris, so far) who carried them out were known to the security services. Charlie Hebdo? The French security services had been watching them for 10 years, 10 YEARS. Nobody is objecting to targeted surveillance, with warrants that have been before a judge, all of the people involved in these attacks - Boston, Sydney, Lee Rigby's murder, Paris - could/would/should have been under targeted surveillance. There is absolutely no need to target the entire population. If you laws that turn people into criminals, you'll get criminals.

chickenstrip wrote:

I fully understand that, but again, I don't have enough information to be absolutely sure that this isn't necessary. I am in the dark, as I suspect are most of us. Yes, we wish to preserve our freedom and privacy, but we also wish to preserve our lives.


In this country, many more people die on the roads or from cancer or well, there's a massive chart that shows what's more dangerous than terrorism. Terrorism shouldn't even be registering on your radar of "Things I need to be worried about".

Based on 2011 figures:

624,000 deaths in 2011 of which 150,000 are 'preventable' (car accidents, falling down stairs etc)

2011 UK population was 62.4 million, 150,000 /62.4 ~= 1 in 417 chance of it happening to you.

58 people killed by terrorism in UK from 2000 - (58/15) / 62.4 ~= 1 in 15.8 million

On average, each year, you are 38,000 times more likely to die from a preventable accident than from terrorism. In fact, you're more likely to win the jackpot in the lottery than get killed by terrorism.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 16:06 - 16 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^
That. Also, bee and wasp stings.

Shoes off, belt off, pockets emptied, shuffle through the perv-scanner, don't complain, don't joke, don't make eye contact with the low paid semi-sentient goon just itching to liven up his day by screwing up yours.

The purpose is to persuade the proles that they are safe. In fact, it creates huge clumps of people, and piles of whose-is-this? bags as folk desperately rummage through their belongings to remove packets of lethal polo mints or gummy bears or whatever's been banned this week. That gifts a bomber (suicide or otherwise) a perfect target for gibbing: simply walk up to the tight packed "security" queue and light the fuse.


chickenstrip wrote:
There is always the possibility of terrorist attacks being successful. Do you think we should do nothing and just accept it? No, of course you don't.

I do actually think that we should do nothing that visibly effects the general populace, because that directly rewards the excitables. A shrug and "try harder" would suffice.

If that sounds like I shouldn't be strongly against the secret perv-database, well, I'm not, at least on principle. My objection to it is pragmatic: far too many false positives to be a useful tool.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 17:14 - 16 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

I honestly had no idea this was the kind of thing going on at our airports, or at least had no idea of the degree of ineptitude. I lead a pretty sheltered and uninteresting life on the whole Laughing
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nowhere.elysium
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PostPosted: 18:07 - 16 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
I honestly had no idea this was the kind of thing going on at our airports, or at least had no idea of the degree of ineptitude. I lead a pretty sheltered and uninteresting life on the whole Laughing
As do those who set policy, a lot of the time. They're supposed to listen to the advisers whose job is it to have a more varied and interesting life with appropriate levels of expertise, but it would appear that informed and rational responses to situations don't win votes.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 18:25 - 16 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
^^^
That. Also, bee and wasp stings.

Shoes off, belt off, pockets emptied, shuffle through the perv-scanner, don't complain, don't joke, don't make eye contact with the low paid semi-sentient goon just itching to liven up his day by screwing up yours.


Of FFS don't joke about it. There was a yank who had a violin in a case and when asked what was in the case he joked, 'What do you think, a machine gun?'

Guess who got arrested.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 18:37 - 16 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my many many plane journeys I can truthfully say the only country worse than the UK with it's stupid security checks, unsmiling security drongos and time wasting searches is the US.

You can't take those nail clippers Sir, throw them in here or go back out, recliam your hold luggage an put them in there. Rolling Eyes As if I'm going to do that.

You can't take liquids on the plane but you can if they were bought after security checks. Mustn't let terrorism get in the way of a bit of capitalism profit making. Thumbs Up

But the 100's of 1000's of airport workers just saunter around the airport, getting into everywhere, doing what they want and guess what, A bloody good percentage in Heathrow are of the brown luvvy duvvy Islamic persuasion.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 19:04 - 16 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

FlightRisk wrote:
Above crypto-bollocks that I don't understand reminded me of this: Very Happy

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/security.png


Basically but the problem is that when they beat you with the $5 wrench the blood gets all over the evidence and so it can't be used for health and safety reasons. Instead they beat you with RIPA part 3 and a 5 year jail term until you give the key, or just go to jail for not giving the key.

The other option is they (GCHQ) just get around the encryption by hacking the computer. If you don't use it on the net then they can't hack it, but if you don't use it on the net then it's useless for communications too and so GCHQ aren't interested in it anymore anyway.

chickenstrip wrote:
I honestly had no idea this was the kind of thing going on at our airports, or at least had no idea of the degree of ineptitude. I lead a pretty sheltered and uninteresting life on the whole Laughing


They've got these full body scanners now too, they look like teleporters from Star Trek. I was taken through one in Glasgow airport, but that city is like a knife crime capital. It doesn't teleport either Thumbs Down

Polarbear wrote:
In my many many plane journeys I can truthfully say the only country worse than the UK with it's stupid security checks, unsmiling security drongos and time wasting searches is the US.

You can't take those nail clippers Sir, throw them in here or go back out, recliam your hold luggage an put them in there. Rolling Eyes As if I'm going to do that.

You can't take liquids on the plane but you can if they were bought after security checks. Mustn't let terrorism get in the way of a bit of capitalism profit making. Thumbs Up

But the 100's of 1000's of airport workers just saunter around the airport, getting into everywhere, doing what they want and guess what, A bloody good percentage in Heathrow are of the brown luvvy duvvy Islamic persuasion.


It's all about the theatre. If they wanted to stop Islamic terrorism, they'd be stopping more Muslims coming in, and start booting the existing ones out. But they aren't, quite the opposite, they're flying them over as we speak.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 22:02 - 16 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look at it this way. We put in all that security theatre for passengers, and what do the excitables do?

1) Sign on as baggage handlers or maintenance workers and put the bomb in the hold.

2) Sod off the whole plane / airport gig and just walk into packed venues and start shooting.

So really, what has all that massive cost and inconvenience achieved? We're only as secure as our most vulnerable point.
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smegballs
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PostPosted: 00:31 - 17 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
How many radicalised muslims in the UK? A number in the low thousands?


I'd say that you would have to define "radical" to give that statement and validity.

Believing that homosexuality should be legally punished or that women have less rights than men are pretty "radical" beliefs for a western country but I'd bet there are more than "the low thousands" of UK muslims would agree with them.

"Extremist", "radical" etc etc are pretty meaningless terms that get thrown around all the time without a clear definition of what is meant.
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Old Thread Alert!

There is a gap of 1 year, 258 days between these two posts...

Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 17:51 - 01 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yellow Rudder says gotta ban the cryptos!

https://news.sky.com/story/is-rudds-tech-ambition-california-dreaming-10969835
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 19:22 - 01 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Hashing is a way for computers to identify identical files or images"

Or, you know, passwords.

Only terrorists use passwords, amirite?
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GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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