Top boxes/Pannier Bags

[louisw]

Hi Guys,
New onto the forum here but hoping for some advice from you if you wouldn't mind!
Currently undertaking a university project where we are looking into the transportation of medicines across Sub-Saharan Africa.
For this project I am looking at a new form of pannier/top box for the honda ctx200 bike which is commonly used/available over in that part of the world.

I am going to make this universal but solely focusing on this bike in the mean time.
As I understand Pannier bags/Top boxes are used a fair lot and I was wondering what sort of everyday issues you face if using these storage methods yourself? Do you feel lots of drag when riding? Lots of noise or your fuel consumption dramatically dropping? Or even them just being cumbersome, a pain to fit/ remove or causes issues when riding?

Any reviews/ opinions are greatly appreciated as they'll help me in the development stage of my product.
Thanks a lot and I look forward to all replies!
Kind regards,
Louis

[Undinist]

I've never noticed them causing noise. If they did I doubt the rider would hear it.

I've never noticed them causing drag or increased fuel consumption. I suppose they must do a little bit, but I've never thought to measure it.

Some of the universal ones, especially Givi ones, are butt ugly and ruin the look of the bike. The model-specific ones, e.g. BMW, Yamaha, Kawasaki and Ducati, usually look pretty good. Plenty of people leave them on the bike permanently - that shows you there are no issues to worry about. Sometimes the only issue is when you take them off - if you live in a small flat, where do you keep them?

If you put heavy stuff in them the steering goes light.

Panniers usually spoil your ability to filter in dense traffic - especially the universal ones which often stick out far wider than the handlebars.

I'm really struggling to think of ways that you could improve on luggage. Krauser pretty much nailed it in the '70s. They still make stuff to the same design https://www.krauser-motorcycle-luggage.co.uk/panniers/classic-krauser-classic-fitting
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Current bike: K1100RS. Previous: CD200, GSX250, GT550, VFR750, K100LT, K1100LT, R1100GS, R1150GS, ZZR1100, Hayabusa, RSV Mille, MV F4 750S, R1, ZX-10, KTM Adventure 950S

[Undinist]

By the way, your pursuit of low drag is a red herring. The CTX200 has terrible aerodynamics. If you try to clean up the airflow with teardrop-shaped luggage you'll lose storage capacity and increase manufacturing costs and I doubt you'll improve fuel consumption at all.
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Current bike: K1100RS. Previous: CD200, GSX250, GT550, VFR750, K100LT, K1100LT, R1100GS, R1150GS, ZZR1100, Hayabusa, RSV Mille, MV F4 750S, R1, ZX-10, KTM Adventure 950S

[louisw]

Hi,
Thanks for the replies! I'm not a motorcycle rider so these replies from people who do ride are really really helpful!
I wasn't mainly looking at aerodynamics to be honest, but had been hoping to incorporate something mildly shaped to minimise the possible side effects of having a big top box on. Especially in sub saharan africa when fill up stations will be few and far between surely some with less drag will be beneficial to a certain extent?

The top boxes do tend to be very similar looking however on primary research into the local bike shop it's amazing how cavenous such a small one even can be! I was surprised but obviously helmets are often placed in them?

The terrible aerodynamics are something I didn't know for the CTX200, I am just wondering about the actual mountings for a topbox onto the bike, and whether an additional structural frame will need to be made to support the load?
More research needed still! Thanks again and more replies are greatly appreciated,
Many thanks,
Louis

[arry]

If it helps, I definitely have a fairly noticeable drag effect going on with my sprint at motorway speeds with the hard pannier luggage fitted and it does definitely worsen fuel economy (I can push 220 miles to the tank without them and more like 195 with them on)

They're fairly block-like from the front profile and with a more swept front face I dare say they could be improved - ironically they're also crap in terms of storage space because of their internal design but that's not necessarily as a result of their shape.

[Pie-Roe]

For medical supplies, padding and shockproof is probably more important than the shape of the bike itself.

For that style of bike and the environment used, I'd rather have to lower down side panniers than a top box, but that's just from having a top box vs panniers on supermotos.
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Previous: GSF600, FZR600 x2, ZXR750, XT600 Tenere, CB125, CZ125, ETZ 250, ER5, CCM R30, DRZ400, RF600x4, RF900x2, GS500, VTR1000F, 640 SMC, CB250 NIGHTHAWK, GT550x3, GPX750 TE610, CB500, X11x2, SV650, ZING 125, TL1000R,CB250 Superdream, CBR1100XX

[stinkwheel]

I doubt aerodynamics are going to be your major issue here.

Yes drag will have an effect but at the speeds these are going to be doing, not as noticeable.

Remember drag increases (and in your case decreases) in proportion to speed squared because it's calculated according to your frontal surface area.

That means a bike travelling fast will be more affected by aerodynamic drag. The bikes in your situation aren't going to be travelling fast. They'll be on unmetalled roads in crappy parts of the country. I doubt they'll be going over 50mph very often so the drag will be less than half that of a motorcycle in the uk doing 70mph on the motorway.

Your biggest problem is going to be weight distribution. These bikes will be offroad a lot so you want the weight low and central, not high and backwards like a top-box. Weight high and back makes the front end prone to poping up and makes the steering feel vague and twitchy

So panniers are a better bet. Both either side of the tank and either side of the bike but ideally forwards of the rear axle.

If intelligently designed, these panniers can also act as crash protectors in the case of a spill. This is what the big aluminium panniers you see on BMW adventure tourers are designed to do.

You need to think about the main issues you're going to encounter in sub-Saharan Africa. Drag isn't one. Not is a lack of ability to filter between cars so them sticking out a bit isn't a huge issue.

Theft? Medical supplies are worth money. Is it going to be secure?

Temperature control chain? Most drugs are only considered stable up to 25 celcius. Many, especially vaccines require a full cold-chain between 2-8 celcius. So how are you controlling that? You're gong to need insulation. If you have a pannier, the one on the exhaust side will tend to pick up engine heat too.

What you DO have is sunshine. Lots of it. Would some form of integrated solar-powered refrigeration be a good idea? If you do, probably worth incorporating a USB power socket in there too for the riders (and their clients) to charge up their phones. Remote places so some sort of lighting too?

It might be these bikes also require some extra fuel and/or water carrying capacity to get to and from truly remote locations. Additional fluid carrying capacity would probably be welcome.

Also be careful not to re-invent the wheel because Ketih Gold already make an all-in one fibreglass topbox/pannier module that sits over the pilion seat of a motorcycle which is a) Huge. and b) Pretty aerodynamic for its size. Used by quite a few courier companies. It's easier and cheaper to use or modify something already in production than to make something from scratch.

https://www.freeindex.co.uk/media/listingpics/2/166/PictureMBike.JPG
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“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[weasley]

I use a 52 litre top box and have never noticed any effects in terms of drag or noise. At the speeds that will be typical on that bike in that environment, I would forget about aero and look at something else.

Top boxes and hard panniers usually fit to a mounting frame that is either an add-on to the bike, or built into it. Fitting and removing the box/pannier is very simple... a couple of lugs to locate the box and then a catch to lock it in place. A lock and key then keep it securely closed and latched.

If I were doing this I would start looking by at the Metal Mule style of box; rugged and capacious. I would also be thinking about the real problems that might be faced... the environment and the culture. By this I mean ambient conditions (heat, dust, uneven roads etc) and corruption, theft etc. (Please understand I do not wish to imply that all African countries are corrupt and all the locals are theives, but Africa is a diverse place with a broad range of factors, and medical supplies are a potentially attractive asset).

So, my approach would be a rugged, secure, well-sealed protective box, potentially with inbuilt chiller (perhaps a Peltier effect cooler run off of the bike's power or even solar power). I would also be researching a typical journey for the supplies and cases... does the bike get to go right to the door of the pickup/drop-off or will someone have to carry the case any distance? Weight and handling might then become important, maybe even with some wheels on it.
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Yamaha XJ600 | Yamaha YZF600R Thundercat | KTM 990 SMT | BMW F900XR TE

[Teflon-Mike]

Carrying medical supplies, in Africa... AFAIK, already common practice and UNICEF and others already have special adapted motorbikes with specially adapted luggage for the purpose.... I believe more old-fashioned GRP style boxes with custom moulded expanded polystyrene liners, compartmented for inoculation bottles etc, to keep them cool, like a Halfords picnic cooler, as well as 'padded' against vibration and the inevitable impact of the bike falling over on a rough road... we'll come back to that!

AND here in the UK we have had a charity called 'Blood-Bikes' who use similarly insulated & padded luggage on motorbikes to transport blood between hospitals and the like, and I think, even transport donor-organs at times....

These two charities, I would have thought would have been your first point of reference... rather than us lot of scoffle-law speed-freaks, thrill-seekers, and bus-fare dodgers.... however....

[TheBikerStig]

[Northern Monkey]

It needs to be strong enough to not crush when you drop a motorbike on top of it off road.

You need a carrier system for a peli case, rather than inventing a new case
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Fisty: after polishing the tank with the glistenng beads of sweat from my full hot scrotum, I filled the headrace bearings with 10cc of my manmilk

[Robby]

As many have said, you appear to be focussing on the wrong things, or on problems that have already been solved. Drag is not an issue. Weight distribution is barely an issue - the cargo will be fairly light.

The challenges to consider are heat, collisions, rough roads, insufficient maintenance. For this reason I would concentrating on keeping it simple (less to go wrong) and keeping it rugged (medicines are still viable after an accident).

- For cooling, plain old ice or ice packs. Electric systems fail and may be hard to maintain by the local mechanic. Ice doesn't fail, it melts at a standard rate.

- Padding, which can also do the job of insulation. It's a bike, off road, there will be crashes.

- Toughness. Consider your primary material, the box needs to take a pounding. Plastic cracks - UV light kills it faster. Fibre glass is a little better, and easily patched. Aluminium looks nice, but conducts heat well, is quite soft, and can dent. Harder to repair too. Carbon fibre suffers from UV light and is a pain in the arse to patch.

- Security. I assume the bike isn't going to left parked up with valuable medicine in the back, so you don't need to go overboard on the locking mechanism. If the rider is stopped by an armed thief, they will be handing over the bike and medicine. Your best security is in not making it too obvious that this bike carrying something worth nicking. Plain white fibreglass top box is a lot less tempting than a carbon fibre one with big red cross on the side.

[stinkwheel]

As Tef says.

if we're really going back to basics, they ought to re-think the bikes they're using.

Honda make specially heavy-duty versions of the CT110 for the Australian postal service.

These "postie bikes" are designed to be ridden on dirt roads loaded up with bags of mail front and rear. They have heavy duty suspension and increased ground clearance to cope with it and lowered gearing to ride slowly along pavements/between houses or on rougher terrain. Knobbly tyres fitted as standard.

The engine is based on the C90, the biggest selling motorcycle ever made and is so basic there will be someone in every village who can work on and repair them. They do about 50mph flat out.

They are light enough that you can pick them up and lift them out of a ditch and drag them through most obstacles. You can float one across a river on two oil drums lashed together.

Only real downside is tank capacity but that can be easily overcome by fitting an accessory tank where there isn't currently a crossbar, then they'll go 500 miles on a fill. That done, the only thing that would make them more perfect for the job would be a shaft drive.

A guy once rode one from Sydney to London...
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[louisw]

Hi,
Thanks again for all of the replies! I have been researching the environment fairly extensively, as well as looking into the current charities that are running bikes for transportation. Riders for health, blood bikes etc and I have already been in contact with them in regards to my project. I am indeed a product design student, but I didn't come here asking you to do my work for me nor did I want you to.
I am already looking into the cooling aspects, locking of the boxes etc but more came to ask about the existing problems that you have faced with top boxes/ pannier bags already on the market as unfortunately this isn't possible for me to experience first hand. Just another form of my research really! The brief was chosen from the RSA, however I only have a very short timescale to actually complete the work.

As I've already said I am not solely focusing on "aerodynamics" this is just another area to incorporate into my design. I kept the initial post fairly vague due to the nature of my design project and not wanting to give ideas away at this stage in my work. I do appreciate all of the suggestions and help that you've given me as to my original questions about top boxes/ pannier and problems you've faced first hand. I feel your post was rather demeaning Mike especially when I had not asked for direct help in idea generation for my product, just background information into existing panniers/top boxes.

Again thanks for all replies and help and they'll go a long way in developing my pannier/top box. The problems such as weight high up/ lots of weight leading to light steering, is another problem I hadn't thought of which is obviously a problem in existing top boxes and an area to look at to minimise the amount of medicine stored.

I will look more into the mountings of a top box/pannier aswell as the structural frame required when the amount of weight reaches a certain amount.

Cheers,
Louis.

[Pie-Roe]

[stinkwheel]

Since you are getting on your high-horse, you should know you've had a surprisingly polite and full set of responses for this forum.

Many people join this forum purely to get people to do their college/university assignment for them.

Yours read more coherantly than most but it is, effectively, more of the same. ie someone who hasn't really got any idea at all about the area they are designing something for, attempting to design an item that either isn't needed or already exists. Usually having already decided what they are designing before they have found a need for it.

It has become frequent enough on here that most people are fed up with it.

I personally have found the general level of competance, thinking, general grammar and syntax assosciated with most such posts utterly dismal. Exceeded only by the dire quality of the surveys they then follow up with. I truly dispair if they are representative of degree level research students.

If you want good answers, you HAVE to ask good questions. That's scientific method. You should also give your respondees space to add to their comments, sometimes they come up with a gold nugget but you should have a very good idea of what EXACTLY you want to know before you even think about asking.

As I said, yours is much better worded than most. However, you are still asking on a UK motorcycle forum about specific aspects of riding a motorcycle with luggage which will be almost totally irrelevant to your research project. Very few members will have any experience of riding lightweight offroad motorcycles long distances on unmetalled roads with any significant quantity of luggage on at all. Certainly not in the conditions one would expect to find in Sub-Saharan Africa. (Try ADV rider for that?) . I'm pretty impressed at the number of people who have realised this and responded accordingly. My, and most others on here's experience of physically riding with a top-box and panniers bears absolutely no relevance to your design brief.

I would also have expected a degree level engineering student to understand the relationship between speed and air resistance and consider its relevance to their application before launching off asking about it. It's not a matter of oppinion, it's pure physics. You could have very easily done the maths on this aspect in advance, then you'd know for an actual mathematical fact how much difference it is going to make to fuel consumption. You put that in your design report. You get your calculator out then draw a graph showing the affect frontal surface area will have on fuel consumption at different average speeds without leaving your desk. You could measure that frontal area of various luggage systems given easily obtainable dimensions. You would then realise one of the facts you need to obtain is what the average speed of travel is in the conditions you expect them to be used in.

The above would be quantative scientific research. Asessors are usually big on that. What you're researching on here is oppinion. It aint science.

While some users might find Teflon-Mike a bit annoying, he DOES contribute heavily to the community (often very verbosely ). He is also a real, time-served engineer who has years of experience in the motorcycle industry.

I suspect if you weren't posting this on a wet and dreary Sunday evening, using a girls name, the responses would have been a lot more.. shall we say... colourful. There is time yet.

I do notice noone ever actually introduces themselves properly either. You've still been very cagy about WHAT your degree is and where you're studying it. It was pretty much the first thing I told people when I was doing research. In fact, we had rules about it. Are you on a BA or a BEng course? Which one? Where?
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[talkToTheHat]

The Givi e45n style of box is worth a look. Big slightly flexible plastic things that are almost indestructible and if you actually succeed in denting one in a crash they can be fixed with a hairdryer. After watching ewan and charley fall off repeatedly and dent/bend/break expensive and hard to fix aluminium boxes, the cheap and cheerful plastic boxes appear to be a reasonable option. Mine are pretty scuffed up from the odd stupid drop.
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Bandit. does. everything.

[arry]

[Rogerborg]