1960's Rover P4 100 - Been in storage for 20 years

[c_dug]

Hi All,

I've been asked by a friend to help him have a look at an old Rover 100 (P4 I believe) that his grandfather had stored in a garage for the last 20 years, he'd like to get it roadworthy again on a budget. I've not seen it yet but apparently it's cosmetically tidy.

I'm reasonably competent with bike based workings and I'd feel comfortable enough to recommission a 60's bike in similar circumstances but my dealings with vehicles of the four wheel variety are pretty limited. What sort of things should I be wary of?

Things that spring to mind are stuff like the fuel tank, on a bike draining a tank is easy, how do you do the same on a car?

Brakes? Drums front and rear I presume, Asbestos springs to mind, what's the deal with disposal of shoes you expect to contain Asbestos? I have access to suitable Asbestos disposal bags and respirator masks at work. How would I tell if the shoes contained asbestos or do I just assume?

In terms of the engine itself I'm guessing it'll be a pretty simple affair, but also I presume it was designed for leaded fuel?

Electronics? Can I safely hook it up to a modern 12v car battery to test bits and pieces?

Any other advice would be greatly appreciated. In return I'll pop pictures up when I get to have a proper look.
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I am a bellend, I am a man of constant sorrow, I am a gummy bear, I am a rock.

[stinkwheel]

Can't help much. It'll probably be rotten as hell underneath. Probably the same with the fuel tank so draining it is unlikely to be an issue.

From stories I've picked up, it wasn't uncommon for people to have their petrol nicked in the 60's by dint of either someone crawling under the car and cutting the fuel line or by simply syphoning it out of the tank with a bit of hose.

Failing that, I'd imagine it would have a fuel lift pump fitted so if you can power this up, it'll shift what your syphon misses.

The engines are pretty simple and you can usually get at everything. They do make Haynes manuals for them.

Brakes, I'd damp down and mask up before handling. Most councils will actually take bagged asbestos waste at their civic amenity sites.

It's a 60's British car so everything will be made of crap. Especially the electrics and suspension bushings. And the sills. And the clocks and guages. And the bearings. And the paint finish. And the wipers. And the headlights. Interior trim is probably ok.

Unleaded presents the same problems and arguments as it does with vintage motorcycles. Two things.

The first is the lower octane which can lead to pinking. Here you can either use high octane fuel. Add octane boosters to unleaded or retard the ignition slightly so it doesn't pink.

The second is the risk of valve seat recession. You can take the head off and have hardened valve seats fitted. You can add lead replacement additives (there's a whole world of argument and discussion on this). Or, you can just drive the thing and keep an eye on the valve clearances.

I think the latter has most merit and it's what most of my mates do with their classic/vintage bikes. Mainly on the basis of it's probably going to be ok, especially with the ignition retarded slightly to avoid pinking, you are unlikely to be thrashing it and modern oils and detergent fuels will massively reduce the amount of coking inside the engine. In any case. Replacing the valve seats if they start receeding is unlikely to cost any more than pre-emptively replacing them unless you suffer a catastrophic failure and drop bits of valve/seat into the engine, which is unlikely.
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“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[.Chris.]

I'm a real lover of P4s so am very jealous! The 100 is perhaps the best model of the range with the possible exception of the 110. Lovely 6 pot motor, overdrive and servo disc brakes.

They're a very sturdy car, built on a separate chassis which resists rust better than just about anything else of the same age, and all but the very late ones have aluminium doors (possibly also bonnet and bootlid, can't remember) which obviously don't rust but do dent very easily. That's not to say it won't be rotten, but they're rarely beyond redemption. IIRC the main rot spots on the chassis are the outriggers (which can be tricky to repair properly without taking the body off) and where the chassis rises over the rear axle. Sills are not actually too much of a problem on this car - due to the separate chassis the odd hole in the sills shouldn't be an MOT failure unless the car has been fitted with seat belts.

The engines fitted to most P4s (yours included) are somewhat unusual in being an inlet-over-exhaust valve design - i.e. the inlet valves are in the cylinder head as in a conventional pushrod OHV engine, whereas the exhaust valves are in the block as in a sidevalve engine. They're very tough but rebuilds are expensive. As for unleaded fuel, as Stinkwheel says there are various schools of thought. Given that the exhaust valves sit in the block (and hence you really don't want to burn them and/or the seats out) I'd use an additive like Castrol Valvemaster.

Before you hook up a battery, check the polarity. Most British cars until the early 70s had a positive earth system, but you need to make sure before connecting a battery as many have been changed to negative earth (which is very easy to do).

As for draining off fuel, you may find that the tank has a drainage bolt in the bottom, but it may well be rusted fast. Not sure whether the P4 has an electrical (most likely SU) fuel pump, or a mechanical one driven by the engine. If it's an electrical pump you may be able to get it working by taking the cover off the end, cleaning the points then giving the rocker arm a bit of help. It'll start clicking if it is working. You can then just disconnect the pipe from the carb and pump the fuel out of the tank. If not, just syphon it out using a hose or some other sort of pump.

If it's been off the road for 20 years the brake shoes could well contain asbestos - it wasn't banned for that purpose until 2000, although many shoes were asbestos-free before that. I wouldn't worry too much about it - the usual advice is to keep things damp to avoid producing too much dust, and never blow dust out of brake drums. Things like some of the engine gaskets and the clutch friction plate will almost certainly have it in, too.

If it's cosmetically good - so much the better. The interior of these cars is lovely but expensive to restore, particularly if you have to re-trim the seats.
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Chris
1985 Kawasaki Z550F

[Vincent]

If you havn't seen it already, scroll down the bottom on this page and there's a buyers check list.

My Uncle Bill, (not real uncle, just neighbour), had one of these and I remember it....... and it's bench seats, well

In fact, I have vague memories of pleasuring his daughter in the back of it

https://www.roverp4dg.org.uk/index.htm
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Space Is Deep

[garth]

Vincent, any correlation between you knowing the bench seats 'well' and the car belonging to 'Uncle' Willy?
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You ain't a has been if you never was

[Vincent]

Anyone who's sat in one of those cars would remember the seats. The cars were designed like a theatre window box inside.

https://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j71/Drewskovitch/Jap%2070s%20bike%20toys/Bike%20toys/rover%20p4%20100%20013_7640_zpsan7d5zpt.jpg
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Space Is Deep

[c_dug]

Some very helpful advice. Thanks all

The plan is to pop to the garage it's stored in on the 16th so we have a couple of weeks to draw up a mini plan of action. We basically want to establish by the end of that day how viable getting it roadworthy actually is. As mentioned before the budget is as little as we/he can get away with.

I've found a couple of websites offering advice but as per usual BCF provides the good stuff
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I am a bellend, I am a man of constant sorrow, I am a gummy bear, I am a rock.

[c_dug]

Went to have a look at the car yesterday, some very good and very bad bits. I'll need plenty of advice at some point so I'll do a proper update later.

For now though I'll leave you with this; the engine showed no sign at all of moving with the crank handle, yes the spark plugs were out, we've left it with a little diesel down each of the bores, but yeah, no sign at all of movement.

Any ideas?
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I am a bellend, I am a man of constant sorrow, I am a gummy bear, I am a rock.

[Raffles]

Is the car moveable? If so then you may be able to 'free' the engine by rocking the car back and forth whilst in gear.
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A good loser will always be a loser.

[stevo as b4]

I'd be interested in hearing more and seeing some pics as and when you get them.

There's a bloke in the same road as my mums house that has always had a garage and drive full of P5's, and I too like the styling and lovely interiors of these old classic british saloons.

I'd like to see one hot rodded a bit with a nice big V8, as it would be a better and different sight compared with the usual Ford pops etc.

As for the engine, well if it's seized solid it'll be lucky I think if you get it freed off with diesel in the bores. Even so, it could have seized/stuck valves and I bet there's loads of sludge in the sump/oil pick up etc. I'd say it's likely to want you to return with an engine hoist, but being positive never hurt I guess.

Good luck with getting it back on the road anyway!

[c_dug]

The car won't move at the moment, four properly flat and long beyond saving tyres plus seized brakes, it's what we spent yesterday sorting out, or attempting to at least!
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I am a bellend, I am a man of constant sorrow, I am a gummy bear, I am a rock.

[Vincent]

[c_dug]

OK, I actually have a chance to reply properly now! I've been on the hunt for a forum which might be more suited to car type stuff, saves spamming our workshop bit with car things, not found anything that seems active and based on classic stuff yet - any suggestions?

First things first, it's an 80 not a 100, so a smaller 4 pot engine with OHV rather than a side port exhaust valve.

The engine wont budge at all on the crank handle, I've popped a little diesel down the bores but honestly there is no movement at all, it'll have been left for at least a week before we next get to have a go but I'm not expecting any change. Any idea's on the best course of action will be greatly appreciated.

Anyway, the lay of the land was that the car was stuck solid, tyres like upside down anvils and brakes seized worse than epileptics watching Japanese cartoons. New tyres in the original size are about £150 a corner and there isn't enough access around the car to work on all of the wheels. So, after much head scratching a plan was hatched and it goes something like this:

1) Remove front wheels
2) Release/Remove front callipers
3) Take wheels to local car tyre place and get a set of old no longer road legal tyres fitted for the price of fitting.
4) Refit front wheels
5) Place rear wheels on skates and roll car out of garage
6) Remove rear wheels and repeat step 3.

Hopefully after this we'll have a car we can roll around the yard, that's the plan anyway!

We made a start, I only took a couple of pictures, one of my friend/the P4 owner under the car:
https://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee81/paddy2007dug/DSC_0266_zpscykszxqr.jpg

The Engine bay:
https://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee81/paddy2007dug/DSC_0267_zpsybykaeto.jpg

The front suspension and brakes. No idea whether the disks are save-able?
https://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee81/paddy2007dug/DSC_0268_zpsymwg0d44.jpg
https://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee81/paddy2007dug/DSC_0270_zpsjhdp7h6y.jpg
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I am a bellend, I am a man of constant sorrow, I am a gummy bear, I am a rock.

[Vincent]

It's a P5.....different car completely

P5:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rover_P5

Re the engine, I suppose you're going to have to remove the head and investigate further. You may even find some clues under the rocker box if it's dropped a valve or similar. Chances are, it's just seized from sitting. Is there oil in it?
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Space Is Deep

[grr666]

The reg is probably worth a bit.
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Currently enjoying products from Ford, Mazda and Yamaha
Ste wrote: Avatars are fine, it's signatures that need turning off.

[Vincent]

It'd make a good "Staff Car" but probably a bit thirsty for day-to-day use. I think they were quite pricey when new....cos the queen had one don't you know

This one doesn't look too bad from what I can make out. Doesn't seem to have seen a lot of wet use Whats' the mileage? Did you say?
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Space Is Deep

[Vincent]

Can you see this link without having to register?

https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=2003676#post2003676
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Space Is Deep

[c_dug]

It's 100% a P4, 1961. It's on 71,000 miles, it's been sat in that garage since 1978 so far as we can tell!

We popped the rocker cover off, it all looked ok under there. The oil on the dipstick was also remarkably oil like too, I was expecting sludge!
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I am a bellend, I am a man of constant sorrow, I am a gummy bear, I am a rock.

[defblade]

[andyscooter]

there was a meet two weeks ago by me there was hundreds of the things

will post a pic later
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gilera runner vxr200 (chavped)
if its spelt wrong its my fat fingers and daft auto correct on my tablet

[.Chris.]

It's definitely a P4 - the P5 looked kind of similar but is quite a bit bigger and has a completely different monocoque structure. It's one of those that the Queen had.

The fact that it's an 80 bodes well if the engine is knackered - it's almost identical to the Land Rover 2286cc ('two and a quarter') unit so spares are readily available and much cheaper than for the IOE six. There may be differences in the mounts and possibly other areas, but a secondhand engine out of a Land Rover might be the cheapest way of getting the car going if the original engine is shot.

You could try the forum of the Rover P4 Drivers Guild if you need any help.

Also, no hot rodding it .
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Chris
1985 Kawasaki Z550F

[andyscooter]

here two crappy pics from the meet I went to


https://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb129/andyscooters/DSC_0114_zpswdeiuifh.jpg


https://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb129/andyscooters/DSC_0113_zps3iicr6b3.jpg

even wrecks were up for sale for ten grand

have to admit I got bored as when I had seen one I had seen them all as they all seemed very standard condition
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gilera runner vxr200 (chavped)
if its spelt wrong its my fat fingers and daft auto correct on my tablet

[c_dug]

A very productive day! If you use piston heads you might have seen this post already.

https://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee81/paddy2007dug/DSC_0320_zpsuwgdkepx.jpg

https://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee81/paddy2007dug/DSC_0302_zpsn9jwbhqn.jpg

https://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee81/paddy2007dug/DSC_0303_zps2yub5wgi.jpg

https://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee81/paddy2007dug/DSC_0311_zpskcpgkalu.jpg

https://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee81/paddy2007dug/DSC_0308_zpskqhiwiqw.jpg

https://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee81/paddy2007dug/DSC_0316_zps2ptq6ss1.jpg

Possibly a little much diesel but the plan is to change the oil before running it anyway so not fussed about it being watered down by the diesel if it passes the rings.

There was no major rust visible on the tops of the pistons, and nothing major in the bores but with a thin feeler gauge you can dislodge rust from down the side of the piston and feel a lumpiness along the line of the ring so I reckon that's what's causing the issue. That said there has been zero movement at all with the crank handle which is slightly concerning. It's going to be left as it is for another week or two before we resort to other methods for freeing the engine.



The cooling system appears to be mostly made of rust and corrosion, as can be seen here:

https://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee81/paddy2007dug/DSC_0313_zpsuhvohuu0.jpg

I opened up the radiator tap and about half a litre of rusty water came out, there didn't appear to be much more than that left in the system. Could something like the cooling system pump be gummed up enough to prevent the engine turning? Also given the state of the visible bits I presume I'll need to flush a few gallons of water through the cooling system before this goes on the road?

Lastly, with the rear wheel popped off, and also while opening the radiator tap I spotted a fair bit of rust. The exhaust is a gonner, I'm unsure how rusty the leaf springs can be? They're fairly crusty but I reckon it's mostly surface rust, would that pass an MOT? Pictures below:

https://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee81/paddy2007dug/DSC_0299_zpsvsspv5wf.jpg

https://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee81/paddy2007dug/DSC_0300_zpsfzhid4im.jpg

https://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee81/paddy2007dug/DSC_0298_zpsxp4omu1m.jpg

Chuffed with the progress, shame the engine wont budge but no rushing!
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I am a bellend, I am a man of constant sorrow, I am a gummy bear, I am a rock.

[Pete.]

My old man once stripped a ford flat-head V8 that was seized. He had to drive some of the pistons out with a lump of timber and a sledge hammer, but still managed to get it running.
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a.k.a 'Geri'

132.9mph off and walked away. Gear is good, gear is good, gear is very very good

[c_dug]

I have to be honest, after some of the rusty bits I found today I'm a little more worried about getting it through the MOT than getting the engine running, several tins of paint needed to prevent the rot becoming terminal I fear.

Sadly I reckon the rear left quarter is getting beyond saving.
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I am a bellend, I am a man of constant sorrow, I am a gummy bear, I am a rock.