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Teflon-Mike
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Joined: 01 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: 15:08 - 16 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matt B wrote:
You can, BUT I have to totally disagree with Mike here. He seems to be putting too much focus on keeping dry and then just buying a rugged surplus jacket. Problem is, getting wet is highly unlikely to cause you lasting injury, crashing and sliding down the road (possibly bumping off street furniture or other vehicles) in crap gear will.

Thanks for telling every-one what I didn't say... a-gain....

'Safety Wear' doesn't make you 'safe'... not getting to 'danger' in the first place is what makes you 'safe'!

Meanwhile, JUST because a pair of boots say 'motorcycle boots' on the box, doesn't mean that they offer any more 'crash-protection' than a pair that say anything else.

DOES tend to mean that pro-rata they can put a bigger price ticket on it, because they have to put as much to design and manufacture, if not more for the 'specialist market' where they are not so likely to generate the volume sales to defray it, though.

And 'cheap Gear' is cheap gear. Leather is no fucking good if when you come off, its not between your skin and road. Cheap leather is likely to be thin leather, and that is likely to tear in an impact, or wear through rather quickly, or its likely to not be so well stitched, and seam a likely to burst, exposing flesh. Similar effects all gear. leather or textile. Armour? Again, no good if its not there, 'cos it can shift in the lining, or the garment comes apart at the seams.

So, for a given spend, and particularly at the budget end of the market, you are likely to get as much practical 'crash protection' for your money NOT buying gear marketed as 'dedicated' bike wear.

Pad up with layers. An Arran sweater might not have the abrasion resistance of Gortex, BUT, its thick, its padding to soften the impact a bit, and its more 'stuff' to get worn away by abrasion, it still offers 'protection' even though it doesn't have 'Belstaff' or 'Dianese' on the label! And if your granny has given you one every Christmas for the past ten years, and they are just sitting in the bottom draw? That's CHEAP protection! But its also warm, and its comfy and it doesn't have sharp edges to cut into your arm!

Old fashioned common sense, it goes a long way... and as far as bike gear goes, can take you a lot further than a credit card and the misguided notion that you HAVE to have all the gear to be 'safe'.

Same Common sense I offer in my 'Focus', that, as usual you wish to substitute with the counter to your own opinion, rather than what I have actually SAID; is put your money into training to learn how NOT to fall the fuck off, rather than worrying about what will happen when you do, and spending lots of money on 'riding gear' to fall off in!
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Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'
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Undinist
Nearly there...



Joined: 08 Oct 2013
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PostPosted: 15:08 - 16 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike seems to think that armour doesn't need to be on the shopping list. I have to disagree strongly - good armour, e.g. Safe-Max which came top in a Motorrad test, if worn correctly so that it stays in position, can make a huge difference. It's cheap too - a full set, inc. back, knee, hip, elbow and shoulder protectors, is £110 from polo-motorrad.com. What's that - 4 tanks of petrol? In a low speed commuter collision where you whack a car bumper or a kerb or something, it can mean the difference between bruising or getting in the ambulance. Or it can make the difference between a simple fracture or a shattered joint with months of rehab and permanently reduced mobility.

An air bag vest is something else for Stewdog to think about - £310 for a Helite https://r.ebay.com/OSlcgp which could stop your spine breaking or your lungs being punctured by your ribs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qA8j3M6YBwo
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Teflon-Mike
tl;dr



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: 15:17 - 16 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Undinist wrote:
Mike seems to think that armour doesn't need to be on the shopping list.

I have a quite nice set of T-Pro armour, actually..... if I believed it didn't need to be on the shopping list, why would I have bought it?

Again, as comment to Matt if you wish to offer my opinion, PLEASE make it MY opinion, not merely the counter to the one you wish to present.

Gear can be quite good... and nice to have the the shopping list AFTER getting some training and learning to ride without crashing....
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Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'
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Undinist
Nearly there...



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PostPosted: 15:27 - 16 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you think armour is good, read your posts again and consider the context. I think you've made a somewhat irresponsible oversight. You're right to stress active safety, but a noob would get the impression from your posts that passive safety is trivial.
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dydey90
World Chat Champion



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PostPosted: 16:17 - 16 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jesus. Fuck doing a London commute.
Yesterday I had to be at work for 2pm. I was still in the bath at 1:35.

I used to do a Leeds-Nottingham commute, around 80 miles. That took 1:30-2:00, unless there was a crash/closure, but that could happen on any route.
That commute was a pain in the arse and I got through it with copious amounts of audiobooks and by knowing that it was only temporary. This was in my own space in the car too, where I could pick my nose and scratch my balls without being in a full train carriage with hundreds of personal space invades.

I'm going to bookmark this thread, so that if I ever get tempted by the inflated London wages, I can remind myself that my quality of life in the north is so much better.


Oh... Passing effort at returning to topic, I'd say that by using finance deals it would be possible to get on the road for the outlay of around £1200. Most of that is DAS, can cost up to £800 I'd say, then basic helmet, boots, gloves, deposit for insurance and bike.
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Teflon-Mike
tl;dr



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PostPosted: 16:22 - 16 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Undinist wrote:
You're right to stress active safety, but a noob would get the impression from your posts that passive safety is trivial.


'Passive Safety'... good grief! Sorry, I call a crash hat a fucking crash hat, its only any fucking good when you crash! Passive? Passive.. isn't that a 'nice' term? 'Safety-Helmet' its 'Passive Protection'.. sounds so friendly, so non aggressive, non-confrontational so comforting, 'passive' you dont have to do anything, dont worry about t, JUST get your cheque-book out and buy it.... Sorry,this is endemic of consumer society and indoctrination that there is a product for every problem, and all you need is 'buy' the solution rather than learn anything or do anything.

The 'popular perception' benefits commerce rather better then the consumer, me thinks...

Safe-Max... "if worn correctly so that it stays in position,"(Well there's an instant get out clause!) "can make a huge difference. In a low speed commuter collision where you whack a car bumper or a kerb or something, it can mean the difference between bruising or getting in the ambulance.

Difference between bruising and an ambulance? Really? Vague, nebulous, incredibly refutable.

But HEY, suggests a problem, feeds the fear, and then offer a ready made solution, for JUST £110 the price of four tanks of petrol!

Are you selling the stuff with that e-bay add, and do you do wonder kitchen cleaning products too? Rolling Eyes "Persic Washes Whiter".. whiter than what? Coffee granuals? Mud?

Its straight out of the 'Lets sell this Safety thing' school of thinking.

Falling off hurts. end of.

Protective apparel wont stop you getting hurt. Even the very best dedicated riding apparel, wont stop you getting hurt.

At best, it MAY save SOME hurt, in SOME crash scenarios.. this is not 'trivialising' the topic or denying that any 'riding gear' is of any use... it is putting it into perspective.

Likewise suggesting that being some-what 'sensible' and using some common sense to choose more 'appropriate' outdoor wear, NOT necessarily marketed as 'dedicated bike gear' can offer as much useful and practical.. 'passive protection', as 'cheaper' marketed to biker's apparel, too, is not trivialising the topic, but putting its 'worth' into perspective.

Don't want to get hurt? Dont ride like a dick! Don't expect every other fucker on the rod to do what they are supposed to and look out for your arse, take SOME responsibility for your own safety, DON'T delegate it to the Debit-Card, and stick your head in a posh hat and think that means you have safety covered... you don't!

That bit of wisdom is not fashionable, doesn't pander to consumer mentalities or commercial imperatives, and I have ever expected it to be accepted blindly.... GOOD

If it makes a newb consider an alternative to the 'approved' doctrine' and start thinking a bit for themselves my objective has been achieved!
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'
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Undinist
Nearly there...



Joined: 08 Oct 2013
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PostPosted: 16:32 - 16 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

You really are quite weird. I think I'll put you on ignore.
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Stewdog
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PostPosted: 17:05 - 16 Jan 2016    Post subject: Cheers Reply with quote

Thanks for the advice thus far guys, I understand the need for the DAS I just wasnt sure if could ride for a year without it! certainly it would appear you all believe the DAS as essential. And altho some may have read into my posting that i was indifferent to safety. Rest assured it is paramount to me and i have no interest in riding like a dick. The better knowledge the safer i'm gonna be.

So revising that list a little i have the following:

CBT - £120
DAS - £800
Helmet - £100 - £150
Armour - £100
Gloves - £50
Jacket, Trousers, Boots - £200 - £300
Insurance - £300
Sub total - £1670 as a lowest.

Mileage was based on a 45 mpg. so came out around £1500. I wanted to target a bike that was gonna offer me above 45 if possible ? and use whatever is left to help cover the filters, oil changes etc.

Ill be doing 80 miles a day for 192 days so that's roughly 15000 a year.

Now some of you mentioned rush hour etc. its suggesting between 1hr 15 and 1hr 30 to travel so as i need to hit the office at 10 i was going to head out at 0830 in the morning so i guess i'd be at the river by just after 9. or there abouts. Is that going to be hideous, if any of you regularly find yourself there at that time in the morning. I did hope it might have slackened off a touch after 9.

Regarding moving, its currently not an option, ive got a 6 and 3 and they are happy so im not gonna rock the boat. God how i wish i was back in the west country!!!

so i guess the challenge would be to find that mythical creature a super reliable bike with a huge mpg!

I never go into anything without seeking proper advice so please do continue to offer tips and ideas on anything from kit, to bike suggestions etc. Thats another thing, i was looking in dealerships and online, but where would you guys go to buy a used bike?

Apologies now if i sound like a total novice, but i am one Smile i really appreciate the info so thanks for all the info coming through!
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 18:40 - 16 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stop crunching numbers, start crunching cogs!

Go get your DAS booked.
Go learn something.
Go RIDE something.
Start getting some-where.
Make something a reality... a licence...
The rest will follow as course.
AND if you MUST keep planning and plotting, the 'doing' should help inform the schemes as you go, and probably far better than buyer's guides and brochures or even us lot!
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'
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Sable
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PostPosted: 18:56 - 16 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

London Rush hour starts at 7 am gets a little easier between 10am and 3pm, then remove engages from 3pm - 7pm. About 1am the roads go quiet until 5am. Sometimes.

Rush hours in London are like that more or less all over London. So that's a yes, traffic between 8:30am and 10am will be hideous. You will however be on a bike, and skipping past traffic is what we are good at.
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Val
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PostPosted: 18:54 - 17 Jan 2016    Post subject: Re: Help needed from some experienced old heads :) Reply with quote

Stewdog wrote:
Evening gentlemen, I need some advice...

I'm currently commuting from West Malling to Camden every day via train at a cost of £4150 a year and wanted to look at potentially ticking learning to ride off the bucket list and saving some money to boot.

On first glance it looks like a 35ish mile journey each way.

Currently door to door I'm doing 2 to 230 hours each way with the train.

What I'm trying to work out is with the cost of the bike, decent clothes , CBT and gas will I be better off switching both in terms of time and money?

I've been driving accident free for 15 years (touch wood) but come from a family of scooter nuts so wanted to scratch the itch (my preference would be a bike over a scooter, as I'm never a mod Smile)

So guys, Im not one to go into anything without asking sensible questions and I bow to your superior experience and knowledge.

1. Is it feasible / cost effective?
2. Am I gonna shit myself constantly?
3. Does anyone else do that sort of journey into town.
4. The fun question I've no clue on bikes any advice on where and what to look at?

Thank you all in advance, it feels abit cringey to ask what probabl seem as ridiculously obvious questions.

Btw it would be four days a week and I only need to get to the office at 10am

Cheers stew


Many people do similars journeys. In the past I have been doing slightly longer one all year around with 125 scooter.

I would choose a scooter for that kind of journey. Better comfort, better weather protection, better luggage space, way more easier when you get to the central part of London, using geared bike in central London is a bitch, definitely you need auto.

125 will be the cheapest option, but M20 is not good on it. Hence find decent 300/400 scooter with long service intervals. Piaggio/Vespa/Yamaha or say Suzuki Burgman 400. Piaggio has 6000 miles service intervals. Burgman is 3500 miles. You can do 70 mpg on both fine. There is 250 working days x 80 miles = 20000, means 285 gallons = 1300 litre = £1300 pounds for fuel. 20000 miles say 5 servicing plus 2 set of tyres approx £600 if you do the servicing yourself per year.

For good gear about £1000.

Second hand good scooter = £2000

That makes your total budget £5000. The good news is your travel time will be less than 1h20m.

Not to mention the feeling of freedom and joy.

Plan about 10 days in a year when you will get the train. Ice/snow etc.

If you get into biking also plan some budget for the fireblade which inevetably you will buy for the weekends Laughing
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Last edited by Val on 22:24 - 17 Jan 2016; edited 1 time in total
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SuperMike
Nitrous Nuisance



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PostPosted: 19:43 - 17 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the running costs on a scooter at least are a little high from some.

I used to work out in the community in my job - involved going round to people's houses. It was a 12 mile commute each way and then another 30 miles or so a day going around. I got re-imbursed for petrol etc, but servicing wise my scooter was a service every 2500 miles and they would be between 80 - 200 quid.

I put 15000 miles on my scooter in 18 months which is probably about what you would be looking at.

I had to have:

1 set of new tyres at about 150 quid
5 or 6 services - can't remember off the top of my head.
Petrol was the only other thing I brought - 6 quid would get me 120 - 140 miles.

With all the running around - some 1000 miles or so a month, it added up to about 70 - 100 quid of petrol, and then a 80 - 200 quid service every few months.

I reckon you would be quids in over the train easily. On a big bike perhaps not, but modern scooters really don't require all this weekly oil change etc as some have hinted at. I literally did nothing to my honda and it just went and went and went.

For me, it is an easy choice - scooter all the way. Not a slave to timetables, strikes etc. Driving through London, well yes it has its hazards - I got knocked off last year, but it is likely to be a low speed one, not a 90 mph bender into a lamppost.

Low mileage scooter second hand for 1500 or so and then enjoy - summer is coming!
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talkToTheHat
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PostPosted: 04:19 - 18 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't be thinking you'll be filtering through slow traffic like those with mad filtering skills as soon as you're set loose on the roads. It takes a fair amount of skill and practice. If you're in heavy traffic every day it will come fast enough, but beware of your enthusiasm or confidence exceeding your skill level.

Yes Tef has some odd ideas and isn't particularly consise. But he's part of the decor here, so get used to it.

Of course I'm going to have to disagree with tef. At some point you're going to fall off. A cheese sandwich and a woolly jumper isnt going to be as much use as as a reasonably priced and reasonably comfortable two piece in immitation goretex and nylon with built in armor. Drop a halfbrick on your knee from a height of two metres and that's you not walking for a while. A chunk of fancy foam and you'll walk away. It wont save you from a high speed interfacing with a relatively immovable object. You need a tonne of steel crumple zone for that. But kit that keeps you warm, dry and makes you bounce and slide just that little bit better is resonably affordable, and if you cnoose it well, is reasonably comfortable.
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Matt B
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PostPosted: 10:58 - 18 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:
Again, as comment to Matt if you wish to offer my opinion, PLEASE make it MY opinion, not merely the counter to the one you wish to present.


Read your post again Mike before you start spitting the dummy and capitalising at me. You clearly state that waterproofs are more use than leather or kevlar and armour and advise the OP to go buy a fisherman's anorak.

Those are your words not mine, your opinion. Coming from somebody that (apparently) was a CBT instructor it's downright poor, if not dangerous and possibly idiotic advice. You own T-Pro armour but advise the new guy not to bother? Justify your "Do as I say, not as I do" attitude and why your safety warrants it but his doesn't.

All this stuff about not getting into trouble in the first place is fine, but there is always the possibility that something will happen beyond your control. If you think that a fisherman's anorak or a surplus jacket will be better protection than dedicated bike gear then you are more touched than I thought.
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Undinist
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PostPosted: 14:48 - 18 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stewdog, the fact that it's winter and you're planning a few months ahead means you have the perfect opportunity to get good quality second hand clothes on the cheap. There's a high turnover of people who give up biking and sell nearly new stuff. Prices hit rock bottom at this time of year, partly because of the weather and partly cos dealers are discounting the new gear. Set up some saved searches on ebay and get trawling!
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Val
World Chat Champion



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PostPosted: 19:50 - 19 Jan 2016    Post subject: Re: Cheers Reply with quote

Stewdog wrote:
Now some of you mentioned rush hour etc. its suggesting between 1hr 15 and 1hr 30 to travel so as i need to hit the office at 10 i was going to head out at 0830 in the morning so i guess i'd be at the river by just after 9. or there abouts. Is that going to be hideous, if any of you regularly find yourself there at that time in the morning. I did hope it might have slackened off a touch after 9.


If you do this you will miss the major rush hour which is between 8 and 9.

Which is good Thumbs Up
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Stewdog
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PostPosted: 19:15 - 27 Apr 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thought you all might appreciate an update.

Finally got the money together and tackled CBT and theory over the past two days.

Got through both, although that theory test was a lot more strenuous than I anticipated. I'm pretty certain I just turned up and collected a piece of paper when I did it for my car test 15 years ago. Anyway 46/50 weren't too bad.

If anyone's about to do it go on App Store and pay £2.99 for the revision app it saved me.

CBT was good, did one hour free get on in Feb so was itching to start properly. Lucky I did as they got me straight on no faffing around with the controls. My gear changing was making me wince. That poor 125 had the nuts revved off it poor thing.

Left chuffed yesterday getting out on the roads properly confirmed why I signed up.

DAS booked for mid May, so now trying to get a handle on bike prices and gather together my kit.

Cheers for all the advice thus far gents/ladies.
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Rogerborg
nimbA



Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 21:20 - 27 Apr 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice on, when winter ends in August you'll really start to enjoy it. Thumbs Up
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Undinist
Nearly there...



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PostPosted: 21:29 - 27 Apr 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Top marks Stewdog! I was checking this thread only yesterday - I'm still thinking of filming your route as a test of my new camera. I've been trying it out, with mixed results.
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Dave70
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PostPosted: 23:01 - 27 Apr 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're doing your DAS in May, get your test booked now. If you're lucky, you may get a test bate before December 2034.

Okay, slight exaggeration but seriously, get it booked this week, as there's quite a wait.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 23:24 - 27 Apr 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Make it happen Stewdog!

And remember, you will be getting back 8-10 hours of your life back a week, price that into the equation when the figures dont stack up.
Also, the first year you'll take a financial hit, as you have to pay for the gear/bike/cbt/das/etc but the following years, the costs drop considerably.
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mossywitt
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Joined: 27 Apr 2016
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PostPosted: 15:28 - 28 Apr 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I passed my DAS a few weeks ago (A2 as I'm 23) and bought my first bike this weekend. I've been keeping a close tally of costs, which I thought might be of interest:

https://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j396/Mossy_Wittenberg/Costs_zps4bo1vqpl.png[/URL]

As you can see there are some predictable costs and some strange ones (e.g. the drinks money left behind the bar of a village pub in the Pennines, for the absolute heroes who helped me reattach my gear lever when it fell off on my ride home).

I did my DAS with camrider on their 2-for-1 winter deal, which saved quite a lot, although I threw away another £145 when I dropped my bike in the Mod 1 manual handing maneuver Embarassed

So far I've bought cheap gear (e.g. a second hand leather jacket from eBay) and made up for it with stuff I have already (wearing cycling thermals underneath and a goretex hiking jacket over the top). But when I get round to planning longer trips I'm going to buy more substantial stuff (£100-200) and upgrade the screen on the bike (£100) because currently I'm cold and badly buffeted above 60mph.
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Matt B
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PostPosted: 16:13 - 28 Apr 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

mossywitt wrote:
Polite Think Bike hi-vis


Neutral Oh dear. And it was all going so well up to that point.
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J4mes
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PostPosted: 16:18 - 28 Apr 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Undinist wrote:
You really are quite weird. I think I'll put you on ignore.


I've just embarrassed myself on the train LOL'ing at that Laughing Embarassed
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mossywitt
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PostPosted: 16:18 - 28 Apr 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tbf that's more for cycling. Though I was wearing it on the motorbike yesterday when a police van cut across my lane and very nearly took me out. Perhaps they didn't appreciate the mimicry.
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The last post was made 7 years, 336 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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