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smegballs
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PostPosted: 04:23 - 10 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ribenapigeon wrote:
Dont forget all those standards that all those services have to achieve though. So that boiler dousent explode, that cars brakes work and that wall the builder puts up stays up. Of course all that stuff is cheaper othjer places but you pay through the nose when it all turns to shit and theres no efective government enforcing standards.


Tbf just go down to Portugal and you get a first hand look. Sure there are plenty of supposed standards on the books, but no-one (especially rurally) puts them into practice. Admittedly the place is a bit of a shithole in places, a nice kind of shithole IMO, but people get by and its no so terrible.

If anything, given the way that lots of Portuguese grow their own veg, common even in the reasonable size towns, and keeping rabbits/poultry etc for meat is common (my friend needed her pig slaughtered and butchered: some local boys from the village came up and did it for her), I'd say that the Portuguese people are actually be a lot more resilient than British. Fixing/mending and making things yourself is still a thing over there, albeit in a somewhat pikey manner, and the skills are still around and being passed on in the general populace..... meanwhile over in the UK if our Just-In-Time lifestyle ever breaks down for whatever reason... we are proper fucked.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 10:55 - 10 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

smegballs wrote:
I'd say that the Portuguese people are actually be a lot more resilient than British. Fixing/mending and making things yourself is still a thing over there, albeit in a somewhat pikey manner,


I think most poorer places are like this. People are forced to be hands-on and use common sense.

I remember working with some Polish lads, we got talking about my car which I'd recently written off thanks to snow and ice on the moorland of north Yorkshire. One of the lads casually told me he could fix the lot, knew about the electrics and mechanics too. The frame was bent in the crash so I doubt it could be fixed, but I trusted his confidence in the other bits he talked of. Or, at least, I admired his openness and willingness to have a go. You're right, that kind of attitude totally lacks in people over here. But I think it would come back pretty quick if we ended up mega poor. We're a 'pay someone else to do it' culture, but that would soon change if you simply can't pay any more.

I do wonder what caused it though. Older folk talk of the days when cars would come with a manual and you cold fix every problem yourself. But now it's all done by 'professionals'. I don't think we as a nation are to blame for our failings, it's more to do with the consumer culture that has crept upon us all, where everyone wants to sell everything to everyone else. Prime example is in this 'car fixing' scenario. People can do it themselves, but it just takes one company to step in and say that car maintenance is too hard and it needs to be done by some specially trained super duper professional. That's how it starts really. End result: Dumb society.
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Sun Wukong
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PostPosted: 13:48 - 10 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think poverty and necessity certainly encourage inventiveness.

Bust your $2 sandals somewhere, buy new ones... right?

What if they bust somewhere with no sandals that would fit you?

Then you must fix the old ones.

It's why travel does tend to improve people's ability to do things.

What scares me though is the amount of places around the world that people are now jumping on the throw away culture. Thailand, China, Vietnam, Laos... slowly but surely the second hand markets and dudes who sit on corners fixing stuff are disappearing.

A real shame, and a worrying trend.
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smegballs
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PostPosted: 14:53 - 10 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
People can do it themselves, but it just takes one company to step in and say that car maintenance is too hard and it needs to be done by some specially trained super duper professional. That's how it starts really. End result: Dumb society.


It depends on the tech level to a degree though.

1960's ignition problem: chuck a new set of points on there, set the gap with a fag paper and strip of rizla packet.

2010's and almost nobody has the knowledge (or tooling) how to get a commercial CDI unit and use a surface-mount-electronics reflow/rework station to repair the unit. Of course you don't; you just buy a new CDI for $$$.

I learned mechanics by being too poor to afford a mechanic and having bikes I wanted to play with. My dad had a lot of tools which is a big help obviously when you start out. First thing I did was clean a carb aged 14, on my dads 250 that had been outside for ages and wouldn't start, I wanted to ride it up and down the track to our house. My dad gave me a rough idea of what to do (take that thing off) but left it up to me to work out how to do it.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 22:06 - 12 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since when have you ever been poor in a developing country?
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 22:27 - 12 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robby wrote:
China will have a job holding itself together as the standard of living - and therefore education and internet access - rise.

We talk about China likes it's a single cohesive country that loves getting along, like Belgium but bigger.


Sure but there is always this kind of unity we are all Chinese. Like Americans while they will talk about their states they are all Americans. Europeans can't get the thing together that they are all Europeans.

The we are all Chinese is a thing from centuries ago.

Robby wrote:
China doesn't seem to have any interest in starting a global war, so I'm happy with it.


If you haven't realised and the point of this thread is that China is waging economic war. Economic wars turn into shooty wars sooner or later. Wu always talked about taking firewood from under the pot. There's a reason there are 8 more carriers planned and the nuclear stockpile is being increased every single year. Marian type reforms are being made as are STANAG agreements between arms companies.

The problem what a lot of people don't realise is that your actions today have repercussions upon the future and that what goes around comes around.

Take for instance Chinese students. Who are overseas Chinese students? They are the children of CCP leaders. They are the children of the wealthy in China.

They come to UK/US/Aus and generally get treated like crap. A recent study demonstrated 1.8% of them were cheaters. So people labelled ALL Chinese cheaters. All of them cheated and the other 98.2% were not caught. Recruiters openly talked about never hiring any Chinese. Hell on BCF we had this autistic guy never hire Chinese. Violence is also rather common. UK official stats are 3.4% of ALL violence yet 1% of the population.

Or the yellow peril stories that come about, such as WA where a student defended himself but was painted to be a killer. Even when acquitted the paper are still running an anti Chinese rhetoric. It might even be low level stuff like oh the Chinese take out place means the cats vanish. We smile pretend to laugh and remember it forever.

These people will go home to China with a VERY negative opinion from what they saw.So what you might think? These people will grow up and because of their connections they will become future CCP leaders. They will become heads of industry and they will have a a big say in shaping future Chinese policy.

The Chinese tourists? Treated exactly the same. If you walk around in tourist spots you'll see signs written in simplified Chinese. Which say no entry to Chinese. These tourist spots even apply to INSIDE China.

The local people actually living in China? China attracts a lot of dregs. These people let it go to their heads and they too start treating local people as inferior to themselves. I'm sat here at the edge of the white ghetto in Hong Kong in a very expensive hotel room and I'm getting racist taunts IN MY OWN HOMELAND. How do you think local people feel about this?

Also ever remember Chinasmack? Chinese comments translated to English. The reverse happens too. Negativity online is translated across too.

So the oh (westerners) we're seen as pretty benevolent image vanished years ago.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 00:29 - 13 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
So people labelled ALL Chinese cheaters.

Maybe 1.8% of people.
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Sun Wukong
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PostPosted: 13:31 - 13 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
Since when have you ever been poor in a developing country?


I've had my moments. I've certainly known the actual value of things in every host country I've lived, and take pride in that (even if you then risk being seen as a selfish economic migrant not spending his money in the host country).

I still think that most countries are set up for a varied income better than the UK, and those who are working but poorly paid in most countries have an ok deal.

Improving working conditions would be great, to end exploitation, however the buying power the poor have in these countries compared to ours seems quite different.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 13:56 - 13 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sun Wukong wrote:


I still think that most countries are set up for a varied income better than the UK, and those who are working but poorly paid in most countries have an ok deal.


Totally agree with this.

There's a severe lack of everyday social hangout sorts of places in the UK. Unless you've got money to burn.

Roger's probably right when he says it's about taxation, bureaucracy and the likes. It's a double-edged problem. People can't afford the social areas on offer in this country, but the business owners can't afford to make their business more affordable for the average Joe.

Having said that... 'Pay as you feel' cafes are starting to pop up now. I suppose that's a start, and shows it can be done*.

*if your goods are recycled from supermarket and household leftovers...
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smegballs
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PostPosted: 14:00 - 14 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
There's a severe lack of everyday social hangout sorts of places in the UK. Unless you've got money to burn.


I guess our climate plays a part in this to be honest. Like in countries that are generally warm/dry you can spend a lot of time outside which is generally either free or low priced.

Also the part of the UK you live in too. Down in the southwest I have dartmoor 15 mins drive in one direction and several beaches 15 mins in the other. I like going hiking and camping etc, which is all free.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 15:45 - 14 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

smegballs wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:
There's a severe lack of everyday social hangout sorts of places in the UK. Unless you've got money to burn.


I guess our climate plays a part in this to be honest. Like in countries that are generally warm/dry you can spend a lot of time outside which is generally either free or low priced.

Also the part of the UK you live in too. Down in the southwest I have dartmoor 15 mins drive in one direction and several beaches 15 mins in the other. I like going hiking and camping etc, which is all free.


Oh I have god's county on my doorstep. Very Happy

My point isn't about leisure and pastimes, it's about social places where you can go and hang out for cheap. I know you can just have your mates round your house or do things together outdoors like that, but the fact is there's nowhere really in town and city centres, or even local communities, where you can go and sit down, buy a drink or whatever, and have a good chinwag for a few pennies. It always costs an arm and leg, 'going out' is always a bank-account-consideration event.

It's not about climate either as I've seen it all in full swing in -20 Seoul and -25 Harbin! It's just cheaper for the average Joe to go and 'do stuff', as in, stuff that isn't just going for a stroll.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 18:35 - 14 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
sit down, buy a drink or whatever, and have a good chinwag for a few pennies [unlike in Abroad]

Honest question, what's the cost of a coffee in Chongqing compared to the typical prole minimum wage?
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smegballs
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PostPosted: 18:40 - 14 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:

My point isn't about leisure and pastimes, it's about social places where you can go and hang out for cheap. I know you can just have your mates round your house or do things together outdoors like that


I'd much rather just hang with mates at our respective houses etc. The environment can be much better controlled in terms of shit like what music is playing, no dickheads are around, I can leave shit lying around without worrying etc.

Ideal socialising situation for me is like 5-10 people just hanging out at someones house playing board games or watching films or cooking etc.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 20:50 - 14 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:
sit down, buy a drink or whatever, and have a good chinwag for a few pennies [unlike in Abroad]

Honest question, what's the cost of a coffee in Chongqing compared to the typical prole minimum wage?


In cities there are cafes and coffee shops that cost pretty much the same as Starbucks over here. Western prices in China, basically. Only for westerners and the wealthy.

But in communities and the outskirts, and even nestled in lots of places in the busy central areas, you have things like this:

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/10428030_10153625099118496_8781409333358799940_n.jpg?oh=69cedebaa8102944aa07a637d94a9f8c&oe=57354F40

Or at least you do in the region I was in (which pretty much includes Chongqing).

These were just ordinary blokes passing the day at a teahouse playing chess and... some other game with black and white pieces that I can't remember the name of. Behind me were several tables, some outdoor and some indoor, of people playing mahjong. The place was always busy; on nicer days there wouldn't even be any seats available. They'd always find room for us somehow. It was a pretty good social space really. None of that grumbling 'sort yourself out' attitude we get over here!

If I remember correctly, the price of a tea was 5 Yuan, plus there are big jugs of hot water dotted around the place so you can re-brew it as many times as you like (or until the flavour goes away). The games boards were free to use.

The minimum wage in Sichaun is 13.2/hour, so that tea is equivalent to £2.50 against the minimum wage over here.

I suppose it's fairly equal really, although there's the main difference in that you can refill the tea as much as you like so you can essentially spend that money then stay there for hours; that's what me and my mates did. It was certainly very good value for money. It's like paying £2.50 to while a few hours away socialising and playing games.

Still, it's interesting, now that I've looked into it, to see that the pricing is actually almost comparable to what we'd pay over here to go and do something similar. But we just don't have these kinds of places. Why's that? Too expensive to set up? Not a viable business model in the UK? Too many overheads? Too much tax (heh)? Or is it just our culture?

Either way, I wish there was more of it!

Also: Note that guy in the background asleep on his chair. You really can just rock up, buy a cheap thing of tea then quite literally sit back and relax for as long as you like. The whole thing is like nothing I've seen in any other part of the world. Seems like some new kind of 'social'ism ? Thinking Very Happy
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 21:06 - 14 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

smegballs wrote:


I'd much rather just hang with mates at our respective houses etc. The environment can be much better controlled in terms of shit like what music is playing, no dickheads are around, I can leave shit lying around without worrying etc.

Ideal socialising situation for me is like 5-10 people just hanging out at someones house playing board games or watching films or cooking etc.


That's true enough really. I guess I just like the idea of having more 'social spaces' in public areas. I think it's more healthy for any society in general.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 21:11 - 14 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is actually pretty interesting economics. I can only assume that the overheads are much lower than in the UK, and/or it's a money laundering front.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 21:29 - 14 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've just been trying to read up on other issues that might cause there to be more people going out and doing these sorts of things in China. I looked into income inequality, and tried to find a comparison between us and them for what percent of the population is on low/minimum wage, to see if there is just a larger amount of people who can willingly afford it.

I couldn't find much useful information but discovered 1/3 of China's wealth belongs to 1% of the population, so they have '1%' issues too (although I think part of their socialist model means more of the country's economic output is recirculated back into the state).

The only thing I can really conclude is that it's a cultural thing. I suppose it's one quite positive knock-on effect of Mao's communism, and all the 'one nation' propaganda that was churned out. Can't remember if I've already mentioned it in this thread but I'll never forget what my teacher said to the class - In China you think like this (or you're taught to): Country>State>Community>Family>Self. This may be part of the reason for why things are the way they are.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 00:32 - 15 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:


Either way, I wish there was more of it!


In Manchester there is something called Zerblat a cafe where all the food is free as is the coffee and the tea and WIFI. You pay per 1/4 of an hour.

The weird thing is that people go there and stare intently at their mobile device to use the internet

Quote:
Country>State>Community>Family>Self. This may be part of the reason for why things are the way they are.


Not really. Asia and all the democracies can and will accept what we see as horrendous gini coefficient problems and income inequality. It goes beyond Mao and back to Confucius. Western religion played the same gambit of accept your lot and poorness isn't so bad (meek will inherit the earth type mentality).

They will accept this because it is largely a non interference model. You still get American dream things happening. Plus many people in China can internally wage arbitrage. Like Poles or Bulgarians who come to the UK to work for min wage. When they take it back it magnifies the income.

It's why the oh they're all slaves in factories mentality is wrong. Most of them do it for a few years to built up a war chest. Many have no intention of staying in the big cities (see Chunlun 900 million people move during new years). They do this to invest and start bigger things in the future. Hell even I did this and I didn't live in China at the time. I worked myself crazy in my 20s and amassed enough to invest and do other things.

This is why a whole load of people don't give a crap about democracy as long as they can make a profit they couldn't care less.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 01:31 - 15 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:


Totally agree with this.

There's a severe lack of everyday social hangout sorts of places in the UK. Unless you've got money to burn.

Roger's probably right when he says it's about taxation, bureaucracy and the likes. It's a double-edged problem. People can't afford the social areas on offer in this country, but the business owners can't afford to make their business more affordable for the average Joe.

Having said that... 'Pay as you feel' cafes are starting to pop up now. I suppose that's a start, and shows it can be done*.

*if your goods are recycled from supermarket and household leftovers...


Illegal raves?

They say they feed everyone, but I bet they wouldn't be saying that if Nigel Farage turned up Laughing
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:31 - 15 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
In Manchester there is something called Zerblat a cafe where all the food is free as is the coffee and the tea and WIFI. You pay per 1/4 of an hour.

https://www.ziferblat.co.uk/

Ziferblat wrote:
Our doors are open to everyone. Each Ziferblat guest becomes a micro-tenant of the space, responsible for it and able to influence our culture.

You will be welcomed by the Ziferblat hosts and able to work with them to help create, supply and develop this concept.

Are they open to people not wearing post-modern lumberjack shirts and listening to vinyl records on their battery powered turntable?

I ask because it appears that they operate a (literally) exclusive entry policy. Press buzzer, strike a pose to camera, get in if you meet their standards.

Price is 6p a minute ' / £3.60 an hour which is that magic ~1/2-of-minimum-wage level again. Note that it went up 20% in the year since it opened though.

How do the economics work?

wrote:
Volunteer with us?

We always need help around Ziferblat. For every hour you help us, you will receive 2 hours free back.

Now, that's an interesting way of dodging taxes and the red tape and expenses of employing people, something of which I always approve.

This chap's a genius.

https://www.ziferblat.co.uk/images/ivan-meetin-ivan-meetin.png

But if ever there was a candidate for some anti-gentrification burn-down... Whistle
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 10:37 - 15 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:


Country>State>Community>Family>Self. This may be part of the reason for why things are the way they are.


Not really.


Ah right, fair enough.

There's still surely some cultural aspect to the seemingly more 'social' way of life over there.
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Robby
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PostPosted: 10:43 - 15 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
but the fact is there's nowhere really in town and city centres, or even local communities, where you can go and sit down, buy a drink or whatever, and have a good chinwag for a few pennies.


You can. There are lots of things that are free or cheap if you avoid chain businesses.

For a central London example, you can get around by walking or using the bus (free/cheap). You can visit a museum (free). You could then to go Leicester square and see a film at the Prince Charles cinema (a matinee is a fiver for members for about £8 for anyone else). Then round the corner to China town and have lunch in one of the cheap restaurants - you'll be full and amused for a fiver a head in Wong Kei. If you want a drink go to a Weatherspoons, they're all over the place and still cheap.

If you just want to go outside and hang around with some friends, you can go to the park (free).

We don't have a culture of hanging around at a cheap coffee shop for hours doing nothing much, but that doesn't mean it costs the earth to go outside.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 10:48 - 15 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
Zerblat a cafe


Aside from the annoying hipster name, it's a great idea actually. Reminds me of the pool table halls and games console rooms I used in China with a very similar pay-per-hour model.

I wonder if it's possible to be barred from Ziferblat for taking the piss with the food/drink policy.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 10:53 - 15 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robby wrote:

We don't have a culture of hanging around at a cheap coffee shop for hours doing nothing much, but that doesn't mean it costs the earth to go outside.


Yeah I realised that after Roger quizzed me on the price of things over in China.

So I was more wondering about the relative lack of social spaces. For example in your average neighbourhood over here you'll have nothing but houses and it's pretty much a dead zone after a certain time. Whereas residential areas all over in China seemed to have little shops and places to go, with people hanging around outside etc.

It's just a cultural thing really but it did seem quite nice. I've never met anyone who said they didn't like it. Though conversely I did happen to have a couple of Chinese flatmates for my first year in London (this is before I knew a single thing about their country) who said themselves they find the way of life here comparatively dull; less sociable things going on, etc.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:16 - 15 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
I wonder if it's possible to be barred from Ziferblat for taking the piss with the food/drink policy.

They apparently have "rules", although one would suspect that they're more what you'd call guidelines.

Porkers and povs probably don't make it past the hipster filter at the front door.


Lord Percy wrote:
Whereas residential areas all over in China seemed to have little shops and places to go, with people hanging around outside etc.

Maybe just a result of not having our obsession with zoning that separates residential, commercial and industrial.

https://img-games.lisisoft.com/img/1/5/1538-2-sim-city-3000.jpg

The counter-point to that convenience is that it's possible to actually get a good night's sleep in a purely residential zone, at least as long as it's inhabited by British 9-5 toil-units.

Add "diversity" to an area and you've got veranda barbeques setting flats on fire again and again, and world music booming cultural enrichment into your earballs at all hours of the day and night.

I know which scenario I prefer, and so do most people who choose to live in the leafy suburbs.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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The last post was made 8 years, 45 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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