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Petemate
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PostPosted: 00:11 - 01 Jan 2016    Post subject: 'Black' crash helmets Reply with quote

No, I don't mean crash helmets painted black - lol - I am referring to the range of motorcycle gear, including helmets, under the trade name Black, exclusive to Ghost Bikes in Preston.
Does anyone happen to know who makes their helmets?
TIA
Pete

PS just seen company is Black Trading but still looking for test results
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andys675
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PostPosted: 14:01 - 01 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

generic chinese like duchinni, nitro etc

black trading and ghost-bikes addresses are the same

go to milan show, head to chinese helmet manufacturers stand, order 500 helmets and you can have "petemate" on the front for all they care

cost you $8 each if you order a few thousand, then you have to sell them, store them etc etc
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Petemate
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PostPosted: 14:04 - 01 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Strewth - that has told me what I need to know. Lol esp the Petemate bit!!
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P.addy
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PostPosted: 16:11 - 01 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Helmet is a helmet. Good fit, that's all you need.
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STONEY!
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PostPosted: 12:03 - 02 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unusually for once I disagree with you Paddy, I've seen what goes into making a decent lid and how cheap lids are thrown together and I know which type I will be wearing.

That said fit is highly important, a good lid is still no good if it doesn't fit.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 12:42 - 02 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not saying the quality of black helmet's anything close to RZO (whatever the f**k that's), but it's still an interesting video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LfEFhBelTY
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P.addy
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PostPosted: 12:54 - 02 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

STONEY! wrote:
Unusually for once I disagree with you Paddy, I've seen what goes into making a decent lid and how cheap lids are thrown together and I know which type I will be wearing.

That said fit is highly important, a good lid is still no good if it doesn't fit.


I've used LS2 lids for years. All helmets have to conform to a standard to be sold here, that standard at 70mph into a car vs one a step up at 70mph into a car. Helmet is least of your worries. In most of my accidents the helmet was last to hit something solid. My AGV which was 250 quid ish snapped in two upon impact. My LS2 is still in 1 piece and has been launched down the road Laughing
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pinkyfloyd
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PostPosted: 13:14 - 02 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Not saying the quality of black helmet's anything close to RZO (whatever the f**k that's), but it's still an interesting video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LfEFhBelTY


Video is a non point on the thread. The video shows the comparison between a chinese imported helmet and a European registered helmet. The Maurashin helmet I almost bought once but the fit was not good. It carries the same ECE22.05 standard as the current Black brand in question. The chances are the Black brand would stand up every bit as well as it has passed the same tests.

I have owned a set of Black brand boots and they lasted a good 2 years. They were comfortable and they only ended up in the bin because the insole had broken. I could probably have replaced it.
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andyscooter
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PostPosted: 13:35 - 02 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been wearing the duchinni helmets for years

Had an off in one replaced as was a bad one but it was OK
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andys675
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PostPosted: 18:41 - 02 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

ece2205 is self certified, nobody comes and checks your stocks or testing equipment like they used to with BSI

no doubt there are good helmets available in the far east, but that's where all the other crap in our shops come from and we all know how the quality varies
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Matt B
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PostPosted: 19:09 - 02 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

andys675 wrote:
ece2205 is self certified, nobody comes and checks your stocks or testing equipment like they used to with BS


Nope, a quick google search reveals several sources with similar info:

"Unlike the DOT system, where the product is not subject to third-party testing prior to sale, the ECE system required batch sampling when production begins, submission of up to 50 sample helmets/visors to a designated laboratory working for the government that uses the ECE standards under the United Nations agreement and verification of quality control during on-going production."
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M.C
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PostPosted: 19:29 - 02 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

pinkyfloyd wrote:
M.C wrote:
Not saying the quality of black helmet's anything close to RZO (whatever the f**k that's), but it's still an interesting video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LfEFhBelTY


Video is a non point on the thread.

Didn't I say that? Not really an issue for us but if you were in Asia with the a helmets a helmet attitude then that video might make you think.
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BumpingUglys
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PostPosted: 01:07 - 03 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Not saying the quality of black helmet's anything close to RZO (whatever the f**k that's), but it's still an interesting video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LfEFhBelTY


Would've been better if he'd hammered the kid...
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Petemate
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PostPosted: 10:56 - 03 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

BumpingUglys wrote:
M.C wrote:
Not saying the quality of black helmet's anything close to RZO (whatever the f**k that's), but it's still an interesting video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LfEFhBelTY


Would've been better if he'd hammered the kid...


a BIG lol
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Northern Monkey
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PostPosted: 11:12 - 03 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

STONEY! wrote:
Unusually for once I disagree with you Paddy, I've seen what goes into making a decent lid and how cheap lids are thrown together and I know which type I will be wearing.

That said fit is highly important, a good lid is still no good if it doesn't fit.


The bit that makes a lid work is a polycarbonate shell, and a polystyrene core. Both of these are cheap as chips, and very easy to make. You can put together a cheap lid for almost no money. These are the bits that make a lid safe.

The expensive bits are the bits that make a lid nice to wear. Visors that don't whistle, vents that don't leak, Well made removable padded liners etc. All these bits make a hat nicer to put on your head, but don't make it any safer.
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arry
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PostPosted: 11:13 - 03 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

pinkyfloyd wrote:
The Maurashin helmet I almost bought once but the fit was not good. It carries the same ECE22.05 standard as the current Black brand in question. The chances are the Black brand would stand up every bit as well as it has passed the same tests.


Not knocking anything here, but that sort of comparison has always sat uncomfortably with me.

There's loads of comments such as 'my £30 lid has passed the same safety tests as your £300 Shoei so therefore it's just as good' or the like. But what if ECE22.05 certification actually meant nothing more than it could withstand a wet lettuce leaf being dragged across it? What if then the £30 lid could only withstand a 6g impact but the £300 one a 10g? Or would it even matter if there was the discrepancy? Would you be any more likely to survive in the real world in a real accident?

I know there's SHARP testing and the like which is supposed to put some of this to bed but there's a lot of negative comments about such tests and their relevance - sometimes by the same folk as in the first camp of 'it's got a gold sticker, guv'.

/sidetrack
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Northern Monkey
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PostPosted: 11:17 - 03 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

arry wrote:
pinkyfloyd wrote:
The Maurashin helmet I almost bought once but the fit was not good. It carries the same ECE22.05 standard as the current Black brand in question. The chances are the Black brand would stand up every bit as well as it has passed the same tests.


Not knocking anything here, but that sort of comparison has always sat uncomfortably with me.

There's loads of comments such as 'my £30 lid has passed the same safety tests as your £300 Shoei so therefore it's just as good' or the like. But what if ECE22.05 certification actually meant nothing more than it could withstand a wet lettuce leaf being dragged across it? What if then the £30 lid could only withstand a 6g impact but the £300 one a 10g? Or would it even matter if there was the discrepancy? Would you be any more likely to survive in the real world in a real accident?


It's easy to make a lid as hard or as soft as you like, just by increasing the density of the polystyrene, and the thickness of the shell.

You want a lid to be as soft as possible, so that the deceleration takes place over the furthest possible distance. It would be easy to make a lid out of solid steel, and it would stand up to being dropped from orbit, but then all of the force from the crash would be passed to your skull. Lids are designed to break up on impact, instead of your skull. All of the energy from the crash breaks up the lid, and not your head. Just like a crumple zone on a car. That's why tests involving hitting them with hammers are pointless
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P.addy
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PostPosted: 12:25 - 03 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some people are always going to believe that you pay 30 quid you value your head at 30. It's nonsense. My head is worth far more than 300, 600 or even 1000. With a brain injury your life is lost, it's worth more than you can put a price on.

My 60 quid lid vs my 200 quid one, I get a little more comfort and a sun visor internally. That's about it. It's heavier than my 60 quid one and vents air worse.
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arry
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PostPosted: 12:44 - 03 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paddy. wrote:
Some people are always going to believe that you pay 30 quid you value your head at 30. It's nonsense. My head is worth far more than 300, 600 or even 1000. With a brain injury your life is lost, it's worth more than you can put a price on.

My 60 quid lid vs my 200 quid one, I get a little more comfort and a sun visor internally. That's about it. It's heavier than my 60 quid one and vents air worse.


I'm not saying it isn't - my point was somewhat different. I'll use something different to describe it.

If the entry weight you have to lift to get into a weightlifting contest is 150kg and 2 men both lift that. Do both of them win the competition? No, you go on to find out who can lift the most. One might stop at 180kg, one might go on to 250kg.

If you needed to lift 250kg to save somebody's life but you couldn't because you could only lift 180kg - then wouldn't you wish you'd trained harder to lift that bit extra? Would it have been worth the extra effort?

It's in no way saying that a £30 lid is any less safe than a £100 or a £500 lid because I don't know - and that's part of my frustration. But what I can't just accept on the basis of a gold star is that all helmets with the certification sticker are created equal in respect of safety because I just can't imagine that to be the case.

And yes I'm well aware of the arguments that you can have a helmet stand up to x y z point but your neck is still broken. I don't necessarily have a view on that because I'm not experienced enough to have seen the ill effects of a nasty crash on someone's C5 vertebrae.
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P.addy
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PostPosted: 13:07 - 03 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a scan somewhere of a slight crack in my skull and 2 bits of bone broken off around my neck whilst wearing all the gear and a pricey AGV at 30mph Laughing ill try to find it
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 13:26 - 03 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

arry wrote:


If the entry weight you have to lift to get into a weightlifting contest is 150kg and 2 men both lift that. Do both of them win the competition? No, you go on to find out who can lift the most. One might stop at 180kg, one might go on to 250kg.

If you needed to lift 250kg to save somebody's life but you couldn't because you could only lift 180kg - then wouldn't you wish you'd trained harder to lift that bit extra? Would it have been worth the extra effort?

It's in no way saying that a £30 lid is any less safe than a £100 or a £500 lid because I don't know - and that's part of my frustration. But what I can't just accept on the basis of a gold star is that all helmets with the certification sticker are created equal in respect of safety because I just can't imagine that to be the case.

And yes I'm well aware of the arguments that you can have a helmet stand up to x y z point but your neck is still broken. I don't necessarily have a view on that because I'm not experienced enough to have seen the ill effects of a nasty crash on someone's C5 vertebrae.


I just don't think it's worth worrying about to that degree. Even the scientific research on impact protection seems to be inconclusive. There just isn't enough information available to base your decision on if you're going to be that fussy.

Two criteria make up most people's choice of lid.
1. Does it fit well?
2. Can I afford it?

I would add, 3. Is it quiet in use? but that's something you don't know until you've tried it out whilst riding, which you can't do until you've bought it, by which time it's too late.

I also try to look for something that is fairly light, as I do notice the difference, especially on, say, a long motorway trip, or a trip with lots of high speed riding - less fatiguing with a lighter helmet. This is where the more modern composite shells come in to play, but so too does extra cost.

My last £50 helmet was ok. But it was heavy, the vents didn't work well and despite a fairly good fit, it was noisy. Best thing I've found about the more expensive helmets I use now is that they have almost completely eliminated buffeting at speed, which has the knock-on effect of reducing noise. If I could have got all that at a lower price, I probably would have.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 14:38 - 03 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can definitely tell the difference in quality between my Nitro and Bell helmet (both are meant to be 5 star lids). I feel more comfortable in the Bell as it's lighter, smaller (as Nitro use one shell size), although it's worse when it comes to collecting rain drops on the visor. Overall I'd definitely go for Shark/Bell etc. over Box/Nitro type helmets.
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Monkeywrenche...
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PostPosted: 15:18 - 03 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would agree that they all will meet a reasonable safety standard (if so rated), but I pay more fore the same safety standard, 300g lighter with better vents and aerodynamics (not for speed but stability, noise and buffeting).

As has been said in this thread, safety is only 1 concern and we are lucky that it's been taken care of by the mandatory standards after that better materials and design cost money...but you don't have to spend it.
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arry
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PostPosted: 16:02 - 03 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:


I just don't think it's worth worrying about to that degree. Even the scientific research on impact protection seems to be inconclusive. There just isn't enough information available to base your decision on if you're going to be that fussy.
.


I entirely agree with you (and the rest of your post which I've cut for brevity ) - my gripe was merely the 'X lid passed the same sane test as Y lid therefore it's as safe' being used as an accurate and evidenced statement when in reality I doubt anyone can really come to that as a proven conclusion. It merely met the same standard in a test but nobody seems to know whether that test is relevant and or sufficient enough I guess. Likewise I don't know for sure otherwise that a 500 quid lid is safer than a 30 quid one but then I'm not making that claim with any authority.
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pinkyfloyd
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PostPosted: 17:27 - 03 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

arry wrote:


Not knocking anything here, but that sort of comparison has always sat uncomfortably with me.

There's loads of comments such as 'my £30 lid has passed the same safety tests as your £300 Shoei so therefore it's just as good' or the like. But what if ECE22.05 certification actually meant nothing more than it could withstand a wet lettuce leaf being dragged across it? What if then the £30 lid could only withstand a 6g impact but the £300 one a 10g? Or would it even matter if there was the discrepancy? Would you be any more likely to survive in the real world in a real accident?

I know there's SHARP testing and the like which is supposed to put some of this to bed but there's a lot of negative comments about such tests and their relevance - sometimes by the same folk as in the first camp of 'it's got a gold sticker, guv'.

/sidetrack


Just because it is more expensive does not mean it will protect you any better. Take the SHARP test for example. They rate lids 1 to 5 stars. Both will have passed the same ECE22.05 test to be sold legally but the 5 star lid performed better in the SHARP test so logically it is a safer helmet.

Price and brand has very little to do with it. Take this for example as case and point:

Arai RRP£240 only has 2 stars.

Duchinni RRP£60 gets 5 stars so this 60 quid lid is safer than the well known and trusted Arai branded one.

Go figure.

Both have passed ECE22.05 but which would you trust more? My Schuberth is a 4 star helmet, My HJC is 5. But my Schuberth is lighter, quieter and more comfortable to wear all day on DAS so I wear that more. IT also cost £550 compared to £150 for the HJC. So where did my money go? It went to a lighter helmet, quieter, and comfort.

It's like food shopping, You can buy the Tesco value sauce, It will be tasty, it will have passed the same hygiene standards for consumption as the Heinz ketchup but you know the heinz is thicker, richer and tastier.
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