 |
|
 |
|
|
| Author |
Message |
| Ribenapigeon |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Ribenapigeon
Super Spammer
Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Karma :  
|
|
| Back to top |
  |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
 |
| grr666 |
This post is not being displayed .
|
grr666
Super Spammer
Joined: 16 Jun 2014
Karma : 
|
 Posted: 09:24 - 10 Feb 2016  Post subject: |
 |
|
Why do unions ever call people out on strike?
They want more money of course, usually for doing slightly less work.
____________________
Currently enjoying products from Ford, Mazda and Yamaha
Ste wrote: Avatars are fine, it's signatures that need turning off.  |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Rob Fzs |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Rob Fzs
World Chat Champion
Joined: 07 Oct 2015
Karma : 
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| DrSnoosnoo |
This post is not being displayed .
|
DrSnoosnoo
World Chat Champion
Joined: 28 Mar 2012
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
 |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Lord Percy |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Lord Percy
World Chat Champion
Joined: 03 Aug 2012
Karma :
|
Posted: 10:45 - 10 Feb 2016  Post subject: |
|
|
The new contract will completely change some peoples' lives and I don't think it's bullshit when the very vast majority seem to be saying it'll make the NHS worse. In fact I think it's absurd that some people will side with that one man - Jeremy Hunt - instead of listening to the 150'000 people who disagree and will be directly affected by the new rules.
The truth is the Tories want it privatised because that's the way most of them think things should be.
We are your junior doctors - Grassroots video made by Junior Doctors
How much are junior doctors paid and why are they threatening to strike? - The Telegraph
Junior doctors explain why they are striking - The Telegraph
12 things you should know about the Tories and the NHS - Buzzfeed article made by AAV; a condensed version of this blog post. Pay particular attention to the amount of MPs who have vested interests in a fully privatised health service.
Or maybe it's that Jeremy Hunt is completely against the NHS anyway. No wonder they put him in charge of it.
British Medical Association passed a vote of no confidence in him, too. And that was in 2013, long before the strike issue came about.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BZofUjGCcAAKWrn.png
In conclusion: If you think the doctors are on strike for such selfish reasons as 'more money please', you need to have real think about what's going on and stop absorbing all the media bullshit that's coming out to turn you against them in support of the blatant privatisation agenda of the current government.
If you agree with a private health service then that's fine, but don't for a second be thinking the junior doctors' strike is anything to do with their own personal finances. It takes a pretty short-sighted person to really think these people are striking for no other reason than wanting more money on their already reasonable salaries... |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| - |
This post is not being displayed because the poster has bad karma. Unhide this post / all posts.
|
-
Super Spammer
Joined: 22 Oct 2013
Karma : 
|
Posted: 11:04 - 10 Feb 2016  Post subject: |
|
|
In a nut shell.
Basically, people get ill 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. The health service outside of emergency care is only Monday to Friday, 9-5pm or there abouts.
A junior doctor's normal working hours did not include evenings and weekends. Any hours worked outside of normal working hours carried overtime.
They have been offered an 11% pay increase to extend their normal working hours to include some evening hours and some weekend hours. Their total working hours remain unchanged. Their six figure salaries on completion of training will also remain unchanged.
The unions have seen an opportunity to attack the Tories, so have peddled lies about the government forcing poor junior doctors to take a pay cut and work longer hours.
The media have jumped on the chance to have a pop at the Tories, so are filming footage of Union placed, attractive white British girls waving banners, to give the impression that all junior doctors are young white British attractive females and to sway more sympathy with the UK sheeple.
____________________
TZR250 2MA road, TZR250 1KT road, TZR250 2MA race, TDR250, YZF-750R Boost colours.
Jaguar S Type 3.0 V6 Sport R, VW Transporter T5 GP LWB Shuttle 140ps DSG. |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Rogerborg |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Rogerborg
nimbA
Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Karma : 
|
Posted: 11:13 - 10 Feb 2016  Post subject: |
|
|
Boil it down to human feels.
Nobody wants to work nights and weekends.
Many doctors have to, unless you want a 9-5 service.
Hunt wants them to accept that they're not special snowflakes and that it's a normal part of the job.
Getting paid phat dollah for nights and weekends re-enforces the view that doing it is exceptional.
It's more about a sense of entitlement than the money. God complex on both sides doesn't help.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
Last edited by Rogerborg on 11:55 - 10 Feb 2016; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| angryjonny |
This post is not being displayed .
|
angryjonny
World Chat Champion
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Karma : 
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Ribenapigeon |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Ribenapigeon
Super Spammer
Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Llama-Farmer |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Llama-Farmer
World Chat Champion
Joined: 23 Jan 2012
Karma :
|
Posted: 13:19 - 10 Feb 2016  Post subject: |
|
|
The NHS currently provides emergency and urgent care around the clock... 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.
They do not provide non-urgent care around the clock... because quite frankly that would be stupid, a waste of money and people just wouldn't turn up for 2am appointments.
(Having said that, at a lot of hospitals that they often perform routine surgeries around the clock due to operating theatre utilisation, getting people admitted to the surgical ward the evening before then taken down in the middle of the night).
Jeremy Cu-hunt and the Conservatives won the election on a 7 DAY NHS promise.
Which firstly is an exceptionally ill-defined promise. What IS a 7-day NHS? Because we already have 7-day round-the-clock emergency care. And nobody wants non-emergency appointments on a Sunday or at night anyway.
Either way, it was an impossible promise. Because firstly it cannot be defined. Secondly, they weren't going to increase the funding to achieve it.
The claims being made by Jeremy are that:
- Doctors will get a pay rise.
THIS IS A LIE!!!!! The contract gave an 11% pay rise on their BASIC salary. But Basic salary only makes up around 55-65% of the average junior doctors income. So an 11% increase on 65% of income works out at 7% increase. The other 35-45% of income is from "overtime", which is to say antisocial hours bonus and additional bonus if they work more hours than is in their contract (which virtually ALL of the doctors do). This overtime/bonus income is set to be cut by as much as 40%, which leads to a decrease of 18%. In other words, an 11% net loss.
- Doctors will work fewer hours.
THIS IS A LIE!!!!! The doctors currently provide round the clock emergency care. But for routine and non-emergency care it is more like 5 day. By making this 5 day non-emergency care service stretch to 7 days, without more money or more doctors, this means the current doctors will have to work more days and longer hours.
It is not just junior doctors who Jeremy Hunt has attacked, pissed off or otherwise demoralised.
It is midwives, nurses, student nurses, consultants, allied health professionals.
The NHS only copes because all these workers go way above and beyond what is contracted of them. One of the junior doctors I used to live with was out of the house so much I saw them TWICE in a three month period (granted I am away and out the house quite a lot as well, but nowhere near as much as they are).
If all these people stopped going above and beyond and merely worked to their contract, the NHS would collapse within weeks. That is no exaggeration.
One thing you absolutely must not do if you are a Health Secretary is rock that boat enough to piss off the workers. If you do then the house of cards comes collapsing down.
Or maybe that truly is Jeremy Hunt's plan... force the NHS into such dire straits that it is just not possible to maintain, and sell it off for scraps.
Either way, the junior doctors have my full support.
____________________
Current Bike: 1999 Honda CB600 FX Hornet
Next Bike: I want a CBR-RR. And I want an F800 GS-A. And a VFR 800. Can I have all 3?
Dream Bikes: Honda VFR750R RC30, Honda NSR500, Ducati 996 R |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Rob Fzs |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Rob Fzs
World Chat Champion
Joined: 07 Oct 2015
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| - |
This post is not being displayed because the poster has bad karma. Unhide this post / all posts.
|
-
Super Spammer
Joined: 22 Oct 2013
Karma :
|
| Posted: 13:34 - 10 Feb 2016 Post subject: |
|
|
| Llama-Farmer wrote: | The NHS currently provides emergency and urgent care around the clock... 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.
They do not provide non-urgent care around the clock... because quite frankly that would be stupid, a waste of money and people just wouldn't turn up for 2am appointments.
|
2AM? Which propaganda have you been believing? 10PM is the latest.
When was the last time you had to go to the doctors? Do you work for a living? The last time I was asked to go to the doctors, just to see a doctor so they would renew my Ventolin prescription, It took over 2 hours to get seen. I now don't bother and order them online.
It requires half a sodding day of work lost for me, because they are always running late.
The government are not asking for round the clock cover, just to increase the timeframe they call normal hours from 7AM to 10PM, Monday to Saturday, like all other service providers manage.
Monday to Friday 9-5 might be OK for migrants, doleys and retired people, but it's sod all use to most of those who have to work for a living as most work Monday to Friday 9-5.
| Llama-Farmer wrote: |
The claims being made by Jeremy are that:
- Doctors will get a pay rise.
THIS IS A LIE!!!!! The contract gave an 11% pay rise on their BASIC salary. But Basic salary only makes up around 55-65% of the average junior doctors income. So an 11% increase on 65% of income works out at 7% increase. The other 35-45% of income is from "overtime", which is to say antisocial hours bonus and additional bonus if they work more hours than is in their contract (which virtually ALL of the doctors do). This overtime/bonus income is set to be cut by as much as 40%, which leads to a decrease of 18%. In other words, an 11% net loss. |
Source please.... a trustworthy one, not Union propaganda.
| Llama-Farmer wrote: |
]b]- Doctors will work fewer hours.[/b]
THIS IS A LIE!!!!! The doctors currently provide round the clock emergency care. But for routine and non-emergency care it is more like 5 day. By making this 5 day non-emergency care service stretch to 7 days, without more money or more doctors, this means the current doctors will have to work more days and longer hours. |
Source please....
This is bollocks, the working hours are being reduced form 56 to 48.
Increasing the timeframe of normal working hours, to provide a more flexible NHS, which will work for working tax payers, will just reduce the load from 9-5, M-F. Less doctors will be needed on shift during those hours as it will spread out the load.
The Unions are peddling such sh1t during this that people are starting to believe half of it. If you look into the facts, the union claims are either completely untrue or twisting the facts in an unfair way to further their agenda.
____________________
TZR250 2MA road, TZR250 1KT road, TZR250 2MA race, TDR250, YZF-750R Boost colours.
Jaguar S Type 3.0 V6 Sport R, VW Transporter T5 GP LWB Shuttle 140ps DSG.
Last edited by - on 13:45 - 10 Feb 2016; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Llama-Farmer |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Llama-Farmer
World Chat Champion
Joined: 23 Jan 2012
Karma :
|
Posted: 13:44 - 10 Feb 2016  Post subject: |
|
|
| Ribenapigeon wrote: | | Rogerborg wrote: | Boil it down to human feels.
Nobody wants to work nights and weekends.
Many doctors have to, unless you want a 9-5 service.
Hunt wants them to accept that they're not special snowflakes and that it's a normal part of the job.
Getting paid phat dollah for nights and weekends re-enforces the view that doing it is exceptional.
It's more about a sense of entitlement than the money. God complex on both sides doesn't help. |
That's the way it looks to me but I don't trust Hunt either. It does seem bizarre that a bunch of young workers who are well into developing a very secure very well paid careers are at the front of the que for going as far as striking to air their grievances. |
You assume this is just about the money.
The money is a part of it, but only a small part for most.
It is a bigger part for some doctors with families, especially those with both-parent junior doctors.
The money they set to lose, plus the additional childcare costs they'll need to pay, (especially in antisocial hours) will financially cripple them, and that is not exaggerating it.
The less money coming in plus the more money going out will be a difference of a couple thousand pounds a month for some families. Thats a whole income.
If people in ANY industry were told they were going to have to work that much more for that much less (and pay childminders and nannys even more for all the extra time they're not at home) then there would be a lot of anger. Could you imagine the uproar in Westminster if it was the politicians facing that.
The main grievance the doctors have is that they're already working beyond the limit of safe patient care.
Stretching them further to provide 2 extra days service that isn't even needed would only make it less safe.
A few years ago there was uproar in my industry when the EU announced they were forcing in new legislation that relaxed UK safety regulations significantly (to the effect of working for such a long time we would be so fatigued as to be equivalent to 4 times over the alcohol limit, and allowing this to happen day after day after day so chronic fatigue built up as well as acute fatigue)
The punchline of the BALPA campaign was "A tired pilot is a dangerous pilot"
Well a doctor is no different. A tired doctor risks lives. An exhausted doctor WILL kill a patient. Maybe not straight away, maybe not in a month, but patients will die as a result.
Maybe not even from a mistake the doctor makes (such as administering the wrong dose of a medication).
It could be as simple as tiredness slowing down thinking and decision making. Failing to see all the options when trying to decide how to treat a patient.
Perhaps it will be a patient who is already dying, one that a less exhausted doctor would have been able to save "against the odds".
But it needs saying again, this is not about money.
People do not become doctors for the money.
They do not become doctors for the lifestyle.
Everyone knows junior doctors work horrendous hours, nights, weekends.
They all know about the dreaded 12-day weeks [YES, TWELVE DAYS!!!] They start Monday, with a 12 hour shift, then another on Tuesday, and Wednesday and Thursday. Then they start on Friday morning and do their 12 hour shift, but they're on-call from Friday until Monday, when they finish on Monday evening, they come back again on Tuesday for another 12 hour shift, and Wednesday, and Thursday, and Friday.
They already work over 100 hours a week a lot of the time. There's only 168 hours in a week. Where do the extra hours for "7-day NHS" come in?!
____________________
Current Bike: 1999 Honda CB600 FX Hornet
Next Bike: I want a CBR-RR. And I want an F800 GS-A. And a VFR 800. Can I have all 3?
Dream Bikes: Honda VFR750R RC30, Honda NSR500, Ducati 996 R |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| - |
This post is not being displayed because the poster has bad karma. Unhide this post / all posts.
|
-
Super Spammer
Joined: 22 Oct 2013
Karma :
|
| Posted: 13:59 - 10 Feb 2016 Post subject: |
|
|
| Llama-Farmer wrote: | They already work over 100 hours a week a lot of the time. There's only 168 hours in a week. Where do the extra hours for "7-day NHS" come in?! |
Or if you want to cut through the propaganda and read the facts, how about the BMA?
| Quote: | The Directive was designed to protect the health and safety of workers by restricting the number of hours an individual can work and by imposing minimum rest requirements for all workers. Limiting working hours can help reduce the likelihood of doctors getting tired and therefore improve the quality of service they can deliver to patients.
For Junior doctors it means:
working hours have been reduced from an average of 56 per week to 48, calculated over a period of 26 weeks. Doctors are entitled to choose to work additional hours if they wish.
a period of 11 hours continuous rest a day (or compensatory rest to be taken at another time if this is not achieved).
a day off each week , or two days off in every fortnight (or compensatory rest)
a 20 minute rest break every 6 hours (or compensatory rest)
In addition, Junior doctors are also protected by an agreement with the government known as the New Deal. The New Deal and EWTD have some different limits and definitions. However Junior doctors will receive protection under whichever arrangements are more beneficial to them. |
Yes, there are some times where longer shifts are worked, but it's balanced out with extended time off over a 26 week period.
Don't forget the absolute minimum 28 days (5.6 weeks) holiday each year either.
____________________
TZR250 2MA road, TZR250 1KT road, TZR250 2MA race, TDR250, YZF-750R Boost colours.
Jaguar S Type 3.0 V6 Sport R, VW Transporter T5 GP LWB Shuttle 140ps DSG. |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Llama-Farmer |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Llama-Farmer
World Chat Champion
Joined: 23 Jan 2012
Karma :
|
| Posted: 14:12 - 10 Feb 2016 Post subject: |
|
|
| Rob Fzs wrote: | | Llama-Farmer wrote: |
Jeremy Cu-hunt and the Conservatives won the election on a 7 DAY NHS promise.
Which firstly is an exceptionally ill-defined promise. What IS a 7-day NHS? Because we already have 7-day round-the-clock emergency care. And nobody wants non-emergency appointments on a Sunday or at night anyway.
. |
I do, i dunno what your hours are, but those times are the only ones i get that are free to me and other self employed people, so what's the problem? |
The problem is that they surveyed patients about Sunday care at GP surgeries, and so few people wanted it that it would cost far more than the benefit return, so they did not bother implementing it.
Now GP surgeries is one thing, doctors in the hospital do not see patients alone, for clinical procedures they would need additional nurses, HCAs, physios, radiographers etc etc.
Where is all that money coming from?!
Junior doctors are one of the first, but there will be many similar contract changes to all the NHS clinical employees if they can get away with it.
This doctors contract is the first, and the doctors mustn't cave or it sets the precedent. That is why there is so much support for them from their consultants, from the nurses, the midwives, from the physios.
The promise just cannot be achieved without additional money, or massively cannibalising the weekday services (which already overlap the normal 9-5 by several hours).
| mpd72 wrote: | | Llama-Farmer wrote: | The NHS currently provides emergency and urgent care around the clock... 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.
They do not provide non-urgent care around the clock... because quite frankly that would be stupid, a waste of money and people just wouldn't turn up for 2am appointments.
|
2AM? Which propaganda have you been believing? 10PM is the latest.
When was the last time you had to go to the doctors? Do you work for a living? The last time I was asked to go to the doctors, just to see a doctor so they would renew my Ventolin prescription, It took over 2 hours to get seen. I now don't bother and order them online.
It requires half a sodding day of work lost for me, because they are always running late.
The government are not asking for round the clock cover, just to increase the timeframe they call normal hours from 7AM to 10PM, Monday to Saturday, like all other service providers manage.
Monday to Friday 9-5 might be OK for migrants, doleys and retired people, but it's sod all use to most of those who have to work for a living as most work Monday to Friday 9-5. |
10pm is the latest they want to redefine "normal" hours to.
But they still haven't explained what they mean by "7 Day NHS".
This is more than just 7am-10pm and don't expect them to stop when they get there.
You can't just force in a new contract like this which fundamentally and unfairly changes conditions for people overnight.
If you implement a contract like this (which they shouldn't be anyway) it needs to be done gradually starting from the bottom up. Put new entrants on a new contract rather than taking away a massive part of the package overnight.
And by starting from the bottom up I mean med-school... I know several people who have turned down offers for med school this year because they no longer want to become doctors if this contract gets brought in. However they would have accepted the proposed contract which the NHS agreed on but Hunt vetoed.
| mpd72 wrote: |
| Llama-Farmer wrote: |
The claims being made by Jeremy are that:
- Doctors will get a pay rise.
THIS IS A LIE!!!!! The contract gave an 11% pay rise on their BASIC salary. But Basic salary only makes up around 55-65% of the average junior doctors income. So an 11% increase on 65% of income works out at 7% increase. The other 35-45% of income is from "overtime", which is to say antisocial hours bonus and additional bonus if they work more hours than is in their contract (which virtually ALL of the doctors do). This overtime/bonus income is set to be cut by as much as 40%, which leads to a decrease of 18%. In other words, an 11% net loss. |
Source please.... a trustworthy one, not Union propaganda. |
As I mentioned in the other thread where you were spouting some 11% nonsense...
Current junior doctors earnings:
| NHS wrote: | As a doctor in training you’ll earn a basic salary, plus a bonus if you work more than 40 hours a week and/or work outside the hours of 7am – 7pm Monday to Friday.
In Foundation year 1 your basic starting salary is £22,636.
This increases in Foundation year 2 to £28,076.
If you’re a doctor in specialist training your basic starting salary is £30,002.
If you’re working as a specialty doctor (not specialist training) you’ll earn a basic salary of £37,176 to £69,325.
If you are asked in your contract to work more than 40 hours a week and/or to work outside 7am – 7pm Monday to Friday, you will receive an additional bonus which will normally be between 20% and 50% of the basic salary. This bonus is based on the extra hours that you work above a 40 hour normal working week. |
NORMALLY BE (up to) 50% OF THE BASIC SALARY.
Which means 1/3, or 33% (leaving the other 2/3rds or 66% coming from basic salary).
Whilst not normal, there are very many cases where it is much more than 50% of basic salary. Back when this started gaining traction in the public, I had two friends show me their payslips which show their addition income almost matched their basic salary. So pretty much 50% (give or take less than £100) of their income was not basic salary.
There is your 55%-65%
| mpd72 wrote: |
| Llama-Farmer wrote: |
]b]- Doctors will work fewer hours.[/b]
THIS IS A LIE!!!!! The doctors currently provide round the clock emergency care. But for routine and non-emergency care it is more like 5 day. By making this 5 day non-emergency care service stretch to 7 days, without more money or more doctors, this means the current doctors will have to work more days and longer hours. |
Source please....
This is bollocks, the working hours are being reduced form 56 to 48.
Increasing the timeframe of normal working hours, to provide a more flexible NHS, which will work for working tax payers, will just reduce the load from 9-5, M-F. Less doctors will be needed on shift during those hours as it will spread out the load.
The Unions are peddling such sh1t during this that people are starting to believe half of it. If you look into the facts, the union claims are either completely untrue or twisting the facts in an unfair way to further their agenda. |
I hoped you would say that... because that is Argument B which the government have yet to defend.
IF you start providing "7 day NHS"*, AND reducing doctors hours, without providing more funding for additional doctors, then that means having to cut back on the existing service being provided in the week.
So the NHS that is already at breaking point is going to be cutting the doctors provided in normal hours in order to provide unnecessary service outside of normal hours.
* They STILL haven't defined what the fuck this 7 day NHS is that they keep banging on about, every time they get asked they just repeat it.
They say patients die more at weekends (which is a lie - the report where Hunt got the data even says that the data is not sufficient and cannot be used to make that determination) and that to prevent that they need a "7 Day NHS"
But people very rarely die from non-emergency problems. Emergency care is already provided every second of every day, regardless, and they are not increasing that provision.
____________________
Current Bike: 1999 Honda CB600 FX Hornet
Next Bike: I want a CBR-RR. And I want an F800 GS-A. And a VFR 800. Can I have all 3?
Dream Bikes: Honda VFR750R RC30, Honda NSR500, Ducati 996 R |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Llama-Farmer |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Llama-Farmer
World Chat Champion
Joined: 23 Jan 2012
Karma :
|
| Posted: 14:19 - 10 Feb 2016 Post subject: |
|
|
| mpd72 wrote: | | Llama-Farmer wrote: | They already work over 100 hours a week a lot of the time. There's only 168 hours in a week. Where do the extra hours for "7-day NHS" come in?! |
Or if you want to cut through the propaganda and read the facts, how about the BMA?
| Quote: | The Directive was designed to protect the health and safety of workers by restricting the number of hours an individual can work and by imposing minimum rest requirements for all workers. Limiting working hours can help reduce the likelihood of doctors getting tired and therefore improve the quality of service they can deliver to patients.
For Junior doctors it means:
working hours have been reduced from an average of 56 per week to 48, calculated over a period of 26 weeks. Doctors are entitled to choose to work additional hours if they wish.
a period of 11 hours continuous rest a day (or compensatory rest to be taken at another time if this is not achieved).
a day off each week , or two days off in every fortnight (or compensatory rest)
a 20 minute rest break every 6 hours (or compensatory rest)
In addition, Junior doctors are also protected by an agreement with the government known as the New Deal. The New Deal and EWTD have some different limits and definitions. However Junior doctors will receive protection under whichever arrangements are more beneficial to them. |
Yes, there are some times where longer shifts are worked, but it's balanced out with extended time off over a 26 week period.
Don't forget the absolute minimum 28 days (5.6 weeks) holiday each year either. |
Averaging hours over HALF A YEAR is just plain stupid.
If you work for 24 hours a day non stop for 6 weeks then have the rest of the time off you're going to be under the average limit. But you'll be dead. And so will a lot of patients.
You can't average your sleep over 26 weeks, you need regular consistent quality sleep. And if all you do is work and sleep, your sleep is not quality or consistent, and your work performance is impacted. Therefore patient safety is impacted.
28 days holiday sounds pretty good. Until you realise that junior doctors have to take time off work in order to study, and take exams, because the hospitals don't give them the time off.
And the 20 minute break idea is laughable.
One of the junior doctors my old housemate is now living with collapsed on the ward the other day from fatigue, dehydration and low blood sugar.
It was 14 hours since she turned up early for her shift, and she hadn't been able to sit down for 2 minutes and have a drink. She decided to sacrifice breakfast and sleep in 20 minutes longer instead.
The reason she turned up early was so she could prepare for ward rounds and catch up on the paperwork she'd had to leave from the night before when, 2 hours after finishing her shift, she was falling asleep writing notes and just had to go home and leave it.
Nobody was surprised because its what everybody does, it's what everybody has to do. She was just unlucky.
____________________
Current Bike: 1999 Honda CB600 FX Hornet
Next Bike: I want a CBR-RR. And I want an F800 GS-A. And a VFR 800. Can I have all 3?
Dream Bikes: Honda VFR750R RC30, Honda NSR500, Ducati 996 R |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Rob Fzs |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Rob Fzs
World Chat Champion
Joined: 07 Oct 2015
Karma :
|
| Posted: 14:29 - 10 Feb 2016 Post subject: |
|
|
| Llama-Farmer wrote: |
The problem is that they surveyed patients about Sunday care at GP surgeries, and so few people wanted it that it would cost far more than the benefit return, so they did not bother implementing it.
Now GP surgeries is one thing, doctors in the hospital do not see patients alone, for clinical procedures they would need additional nurses, HCAs, physios, radiographers etc etc.
Where is all that money coming from?! |
Well one, they never surveyed me, and i couldn't give a shit where the money comes from, i've not used the nhs for 4 years and even then, i was in there for 5 mins and then paid for the fucking subscription , while some cretins seem to use it every other week, how about dealing with them wastrels instead of punishing those who pay in and get very little back.
Maybe if they opened in evenings, there wouldn't be so many coffin dodgers spreading germs in the waiting rooms as they'd all be at home.
____________________
'00 Aprilia RS50 > '92 Honda CG > '99 Yamaha Fazer > '91 Yamaha RXS > '79 Suzuki X5 > 01' Honda Cg > 07' Honda Cg > 82' Kawasaki Z200 > suzuki gsxr 400 gk73a > honda vfr 400 NC30> Yamaha RD350 YPVS F2 > Kawasaki ZZR 600 D1 > Yamaha TZR 250 2MA >Suzuki TL1000R > Yamaha TDR250 > Honda 929 blade > Suzuki SV1000 > Honda H100
Mod 2 Passed 09/06/2011 |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| - |
This post is not being displayed because the poster has bad karma. Unhide this post / all posts.
|
-
Super Spammer
Joined: 22 Oct 2013
Karma :
|
| Posted: 14:32 - 10 Feb 2016 Post subject: |
|
|
| Llama-Farmer wrote: | Stuff mainly unproven and incorrect guesswork including this |
| Llama-Farmer wrote: | ....As I mentioned in the other thread where you were spouting some 11% nonsense... |
It's not nonsense, it's an 11% pay rise to extend the timeframe which their shifts count as normal from 7PM to 10PM to include Saturdays. This is fact, not some incorrect biased propaganda rubbish circled around Facebook
| Llama-Farmer wrote: | Current junior doctors earnings:
| NHS wrote: |
If you are asked in your contract to work more than 40 hours a week and/or to work outside 7am – 7pm Monday to Friday, you will receive an additional bonus which will normally be between 20% and 50% of the basic salary. This bonus is based on the extra hours that you work above a 40 hour normal working week. |
NORMALLY BE (up to) 50% OF THE BASIC SALARY.
Which means 1/3, or 33% (leaving the other 2/3rds or 66% coming from basic salary).
Whilst not normal, there are very many cases where it is much more than 50% of basic salary. Back when this started gaining traction in the public, I had two friends show me their payslips which show their addition income almost matched their basic salary. So pretty much 50% (give or take less than £100) of their income was not basic salary.
There is your 55-60% |
I'm not sure I get the drift of that. Are you saying that if they work even 1 hour above the 40 hours in a week, they get an extra 10 hours minimum? If so, no wonder they're whining about the gravy train being pulled in.
I see it as, if you work over your 40 hours, you do NOT get a lump sum 20-50% of your salary as a lump sum bonus. You get those hours you work over your normal working hours paid at a higher "bonus" rate, "which will normally be between 20% and 50% of the basic salary".
So time and time and a fifth or to time and a half.
____________________
TZR250 2MA road, TZR250 1KT road, TZR250 2MA race, TDR250, YZF-750R Boost colours.
Jaguar S Type 3.0 V6 Sport R, VW Transporter T5 GP LWB Shuttle 140ps DSG.
Last edited by - on 14:37 - 10 Feb 2016; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Ribenapigeon |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Ribenapigeon
Super Spammer
Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| - |
This post is not being displayed because the poster has bad karma. Unhide this post / all posts.
|
-
Super Spammer
Joined: 22 Oct 2013
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| grr666 |
This post is not being displayed .
|
grr666
Super Spammer
Joined: 16 Jun 2014
Karma :
|
| Posted: 14:37 - 10 Feb 2016 Post subject: |
|
|
From time to time in the job I do I have to replace or work on somebodies toilet. Invariably this will end up with me getting
a bit of someone else's shit and/or piss on me and/or my clothes. I accept it as part of the job I chose to do. I'd imagine
the whole shit and piss thing is not so much of an issue for someone who chose to be a florist or a chef.
Soldier in 'gets shot' shocker!
Baker in 'gets burnt' shocker!
Electrician in 'gets a shock' shocker!
Doctor in ' works on call/long hours' shocker????
I'm not sure what they were expecting when they elected to start medical school, clever enough to be a Doctor? Sure, why not?
Clever enough to see that the pay and conditions are better in the private sector especially overseas? Perhaps not.
Smart enough to do something else entirely which would give them the 30 hour week and 60kpa basic they seem to
feel they are missing out on by working for the NHS?
Nope.
____________________
Currently enjoying products from Ford, Mazda and Yamaha
Ste wrote: Avatars are fine, it's signatures that need turning off. |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Llama-Farmer |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Llama-Farmer
World Chat Champion
Joined: 23 Jan 2012
Karma :
|
| Posted: 14:40 - 10 Feb 2016 Post subject: |
|
|
https://www.facebook.com/dothejbox/videos/10101397847639533/
____________________
Current Bike: 1999 Honda CB600 FX Hornet
Next Bike: I want a CBR-RR. And I want an F800 GS-A. And a VFR 800. Can I have all 3?
Dream Bikes: Honda VFR750R RC30, Honda NSR500, Ducati 996 R |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Llama-Farmer |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Llama-Farmer
World Chat Champion
Joined: 23 Jan 2012
Karma :
|
| Posted: 14:45 - 10 Feb 2016 Post subject: |
|
|
| mpd72 wrote: |
It's not nonsense, it's an 11% pay rise to extend the timeframe which their shifts count as normal from 7PM to 10PM to include Saturdays. This is fact, not some incorrect biased propaganda rubbish circled around Facebook |
It's an 11% pay rise on their basic salary, like I said.
But their basic salary is not their total income, like I said.
| mpd72 wrote: | I'm not sure I get the drift of that. Are you saying that if they work even 1 hour above the 40 hours in a week, they get an extra 10 hours minimum? If so, no wonder they're whining about the gravy train being pulled in.
I see it as, if you work over your 40 hours, you do NOT get a lump sum 20-50% of your salary as a lump sum bonus. You get those hours you work over your normal working hours paid at a higher "bonus" rate, "which will normally be between 20% and 50% of the basic salary".
So time and time and a fifth or to time and a half. |
No, I'm saying of their total income, a lot of it is NOT basic salary... so the 11% pay rise does not apply to that.
By cutting their additional pay by much more than the 11% they're increasing basic salary by, it's a pay cut, in real total-monthly-income terms, and pay-per-hour-worked terms.
____________________
Current Bike: 1999 Honda CB600 FX Hornet
Next Bike: I want a CBR-RR. And I want an F800 GS-A. And a VFR 800. Can I have all 3?
Dream Bikes: Honda VFR750R RC30, Honda NSR500, Ducati 996 R |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| - |
This post is not being displayed because the poster has bad karma. Unhide this post / all posts.
|
-
Super Spammer
Joined: 22 Oct 2013
Karma :
|
| Posted: 14:45 - 10 Feb 2016 Post subject: |
|
|
| Llama-Farmer wrote: | The problem is that they surveyed patients about Sunday care at GP surgeries, and so few people wanted it that it would cost far more than the benefit return, so they did not bother implementing it. |
The last time I went to a doctors surgery, it was full of old people and migrants, who didn't appear to represent the majority of the working public.
If you ask those people about Sunday surgeries, you'll get the answer you want. Carry out the same survey in a work place and the result may be completely different.
There is so much being spouted from union and left wing sources, that half the public are unsure of the actual facts.
____________________
TZR250 2MA road, TZR250 1KT road, TZR250 2MA race, TDR250, YZF-750R Boost colours.
Jaguar S Type 3.0 V6 Sport R, VW Transporter T5 GP LWB Shuttle 140ps DSG. |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Llama-Farmer |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Llama-Farmer
World Chat Champion
Joined: 23 Jan 2012
Karma :
|
| Posted: 14:57 - 10 Feb 2016 Post subject: |
|
|
| mpd72 wrote: | | Llama-Farmer wrote: | The problem is that they surveyed patients about Sunday care at GP surgeries, and so few people wanted it that it would cost far more than the benefit return, so they did not bother implementing it. |
The last time I went to a doctors surgery, it was full of old people and migrants, who didn't appear to represent the majority of the working public.
If you ask those people about Sunday surgeries, you'll get the answer you want. Carry out the same survey in a work place and the result may be completely different.
There is so much being spouted from union and left wing sources, that half the public are unsure of the actual facts. |
It wasn't a manipulated survey cross section so moot point.
They wanted a GP service that was available later on weekdays and on Saturdays.
Which they now have.
They didn't want extra GP services on Sundays. So they do not have.
Although because patient demand is lower than in the daytime in the week, the surgeries are now coming together to form a "hub", and together these surgeries are responsible for providing this additional extended service to all the patients, so they split it, and one surgery will do one evening, one does another, another will do saturday etc.
This is still in the trial stage in numerous areas to assess the viability of nationwide rollout. The GPs I have spoken to involved have said that the evening surgeries are much much quieter than the daytime, people just aren't booking the available appointments, so it doesn't look like it will be worth investing more money in a implementing across the UK.
I'm good friends with my neighbour who is a GP... he goes to work at 7am every day except Thursday, gets there for about 7.20, enough time to make a coffee and start paperwork at 7.30am. The first appointment starts at 8am although with the automated check-in system, if patients are early he'll see them early, and last appt starts at 7pm. He is usually back at 8pm, bringing around 2 hours of paperwork to do at home.
Thursday's he is the emergency on call, so is in the surgery from around 7am and doesn't get a chance to do any paperwork. He does 9 sessions a week (as is normal for a full time GP, each "session" is a half day) and so Thursday afternoon is his "half day off" which he uses to fill in at the local urgent care centre.
Like junior doctors, GPs don't have any more time to give, and the service that people want, and that politicians demand, just cannot be provided without increasing the numbers of doctors and the amount of money.
Although before this increased service, and even since, EVERY GP SURGERY must provide emergency out-of-hours care for its patients.
Pretty much all surgeries pay urgent care centres or "GP Centres" based at hospitals to provide these emergency out of hours services.
They call their GP surgery and it automatically transfers through, they get an appointment in the middle of the night at an hours notice and get seen by a GP. Or if they're too unwell to travel, a GP will come visit them, usually in one of the green-light DOCTOR cars (although green lights are only used for time critical emergencies which most cases are not)
____________________
Current Bike: 1999 Honda CB600 FX Hornet
Next Bike: I want a CBR-RR. And I want an F800 GS-A. And a VFR 800. Can I have all 3?
Dream Bikes: Honda VFR750R RC30, Honda NSR500, Ducati 996 R
Last edited by Llama-Farmer on 15:05 - 10 Feb 2016; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
 |
Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 8 years, 67 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
 |
|
|
This page may contain affiliate links, which means we may earn a small commission if a visitor clicks through and makes a purchase. By clicking on an affiliate link, you accept that third-party cookies will be set.
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum
|
Read the Terms of Use! - Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group
Debug Mode: ON - Server: birks (www) - Page Generation Time: 0.18 Sec - Server Load: 0.32 - MySQL Queries: 17 - Page Size: 176.12 Kb
|
Help & FAQs
Search BCF
Members
Groups
Events Calendar
rating
rating