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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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 Posted: 14:59 - 10 Feb 2016  Post subject: |
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| Llama-Farmer wrote: | that means having to cut back on the existing service being provided in the week. |
Good.
As above, a 9-5 weekday service[*] benefits the professional sick who have nothing better to do.
Working people who want to use it as a health service might as well not bother.
Perhaps the problem isn't the number of shoulders, it's the size of the burden on them.
You say that tired doctors will kill people as though that's necessarily a bad thing. It depends on the people.
[*] 9:00 to 11:30, 15:00 to 17:30 at my surgery. Phone lines open at 8:30, but you can't get through. The plague-zombie surge to the counter takes care of that. You can either come in and sit and wait all day, or you can book 3 weeks in advance and hope they don't cancel on you.
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Last edited by Rogerborg on 15:04 - 10 Feb 2016; edited 1 time in total |
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Posted: 15:02 - 10 Feb 2016  Post subject: |
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Here's a good summary of all he guff and mistruths being peddled by the media...
https://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-junior-doctors-pay-cut/21890
Some key quotes...
| Quote: | We’ll be very happy to update this if any junior doctors working within the hours limits want to get in touch and prove that their pay will fall, but for now it’s a “fiction”. |
| Quote: | As far as we can see, no one will lose immediately because the government is offering “pay protection” for anyone who would potentially see their pay cut thanks to the changes. |
| Quote: | * New limits on working hours, including a maximum of 72 hours a week instead of 91 and a max of four night shifts in a row. |
| Quote: | Mr Hunt says about three quarters of junior doctors will get a net raise, while about 500 (roughly one per cent) will lose out because they are currently working illegally long hours and that practice will end with the new contract.
The newspapers are full of quotes from junior doctors disputing all this, but it’s not clear that the scenarios take in today’s offer of pay protection, and we are not told whether the claims from the doctors have been checked with the pay calculator.
The BMA has in fact offered a cautious welcome to the assurance that no trainee working legal hours will have their pay cut as a potential “step in the right direction”.
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Llama-Farmer
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Posted: 15:13 - 10 Feb 2016  Post subject: |
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| Rogerborg wrote: | | Llama-Farmer wrote: | that means having to cut back on the existing service being provided in the week. |
Good.
As above, a 9-5 weekday service[*] benefits the professional sick who have nothing better to do. |
The "professional sick" (usually what the doctors refer to as "heart sink" patients, because as soon as you see them your heart sinks) are not the issue.
The issue is that Junior Doctors are working in fields of medicine that do not have "professional sick" in the way that people swamp GP surgeries in the week. Because they can't just go to a hospital and get seen (A&E/urgent care/sexual health clinic aside) they need an appointment for the vast majority of services. They will not get an appointment unless they are referred for an appointment.
You go see a neurologist, or a dermatologist, or an endocrinologist, or go to the fracture clinic, or the rheumatology clinic, or anywhere for that matter, you can't just book an appointment because you want to. You have to be referred, and people who are referred generally (with a few exceptions) do require those appointments.
By reducing the cover in the day time, they'd only need to be seen in the evenings anyway, so "people with jobs" are still going to be stuck waiting for appointments because people who could be seen in the daytime now can't because there are no appointments.
It means waiting lists for appointments will go up as well.
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DrSnoosnoo
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| Posted: 15:29 - 10 Feb 2016 Post subject: |
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It seems some people say, those junior doctors are all whingers.
Hard working folk like me should get to see my GP at 9 at night...
This is a different issue entirely. The common denominator, I think, is under funding. Many GP surgeries have closed and one big one for an area have sprung up, but that doesn't mean that the same number of patients can be seen at the same time as three separate surgeries would.
"Oh well that GP is on £(more than me so I can complain) so should work from 7 in the morning til midnight"
That issue could be solved by having two shifts of GPs, a day and night shift if you will? Or you could just close it throughout "working hours" and open after that. But Hunt wants to change normal hours to be 7-10 so you can have your GP appointments after 10 at night and before 7 in the morning. That's obtuse, we should use 9-5 as working hours for us proles that aren't Doctors.
IMO. We (government through our taxes) should be paying our doctors a healthy wage. Why would somebody chose a profession of a millions hours a week, getting shat, pissed, vommed and blooded on for the same as a cashier in ASDA?
To operate the NHS over the weekend (elective surgeries let's say) that simply cannot be done by saying, those that work in the week now will do weekends too, but you won't be working any more hours. That is a lie, it cannot mathematically be true.
Instead, more Doctors should be trained, and not simply imported. The new incumbent of doctors will be told on enrolment what the contract will be on employment and that it will be x amount of unsocial hours but this is what you get paid, because you'll be away from your family.
A few years ago a friend worked at Wilkinson's, he got paid twice the daily rate for working after 8pm!
To end this almost pointless post I will say, Hunt is a pillock. I wholeheartedly support those who are smart enough to learn how to replace my heart in reading the proposals and making their own decisions and not be led blindly like dusty coal miners who can't read or write.
98% voted for strike action.
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| Posted: 15:31 - 10 Feb 2016 Post subject: |
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| Llama-Farmer wrote: | | mpd72 wrote: |
It's not nonsense, it's an 11% pay rise to extend the timeframe which their shifts count as normal from 7PM to 10PM to include Saturdays. This is fact, not some incorrect biased propaganda rubbish circled around Facebook |
It's an 11% pay rise on their basic salary, like I said.
But their basic salary is not their total income, like I said.
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That's how pay rises work. I can't think of a situation where an employer would factor in unknown quantities of future, yet unworked overtime. Can you?
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| Lord Percy |
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Lord Percy
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Posted: 15:40 - 10 Feb 2016  Post subject: |
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mpd72 I'm amazed you think the whole thing is a biased smear campaign by 'the unions'.
They are not the ones who started this, Jeremy Hunt is.
You seem to think they should just accept what they've been offered, and that this one man, who has fuck all relevant experience running any kind of health service, is correct in what he's doing.
One man! One stupid, elitist, inexperienced man! 
Why are you so in favour of him...? |
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| Posted: 15:44 - 10 Feb 2016 Post subject: |
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| Llama-Farmer wrote: |
They wanted a GP service that was available later on weekdays and on Saturdays.
Which they now have. |
No we don't. My GP surgery is open Monday to Thursday, 8.30am to 7PM and Friday 8.30am-5.00pm. Closed Saturday and Sunday. Where are you getting for "facts" from?
| Llama-Farmer wrote: | They didn't want extra GP services on Sundays. So they do not have. |
Or Saturdays either apparently.
https://www.wyesurgery.co.uk/page1.aspx?p=7&t=2
| Llama-Farmer wrote: | Although because patient demand is lower than in the daytime in the week, the surgeries are now coming together to form a "hub", and together these surgeries are responsible for providing this additional extended service to all the patients, so they split it, and one surgery will do one evening, one does another, another will do saturday etc.
This is still in the trial stage in numerous areas to assess the viability of nationwide rollout. The GPs I have spoken to involved have said that the evening surgeries are much much quieter than the daytime, people just aren't booking the available appointments, so it doesn't look like it will be worth investing more money in a implementing across the UK.
I'm good friends with my neighbour who is a GP... he goes to work at 7am every day except Thursday, gets there for about 7.20, enough time to make a coffee and start paperwork at 7.30am. The first appointment starts at 8am although with the automated check-in system, if patients are early he'll see them early, and last appt starts at 7pm. He is usually back at 8pm, bringing around 2 hours of paperwork to do at home.
Thursday's he is the emergency on call, so is in the surgery from around 7am and doesn't get a chance to do any paperwork. He does 9 sessions a week (as is normal for a full time GP, each "session" is a half day) and so Thursday afternoon is his "half day off" which he uses to fill in at the local urgent care centre.
Like junior doctors, GPs don't have any more time to give, and the service that people want, and that politicians demand, just cannot be provided without increasing the numbers of doctors and the amount of money.
Although before this increased service, and even since, EVERY GP SURGERY must provide emergency out-of-hours care for its patients.
Pretty much all surgeries pay urgent care centres or "GP Centres" based at hospitals to provide these emergency out of hours services.
They call their GP surgery and it automatically transfers through, they get an appointment in the middle of the night at an hours notice and get seen by a GP. Or if they're too unwell to travel, a GP will come visit them, usually in one of the green-light DOCTOR cars (although green lights are only used for time critical emergencies which most cases are not) |
This is cobblers. My surgery directs me to the NHS 111 service out of hours. Look at the link I provided.
Are you sure you're not just making this up as you go along, because none of it rings true with my local NHS surgery?
This is the whole problem, so many lies and mistruths have been peddled by the unions and left wingers, that people actually believe half of this guff as fact now.
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| Posted: 15:50 - 10 Feb 2016 Post subject: |
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| Lord Percy wrote: | mpd72 I'm amazed you think the whole thing is a biased smear campaign by 'the unions'.
They are not the ones who started this, Jeremy Hunt is.
You seem to think they should just accept what they've been offered, and that this one man, who has fuck all relevant experience running any kind of health service, is correct in what he's doing.
One man! One stupid, elitist, inexperienced man!
Why are you so in favour of him...? |
No, he comes across as a w4nker, but let's face it, that role is political suicide. Being Health Minister is the short straw.
If you look at the propaganda coming from the unions, it's complete lies and miss-truths. Every single "concern" brought about by the union has been proven to be complete b0llocks, yet people are still peddling it and the foolish are believing it.
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Lord Percy
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| Posted: 16:02 - 10 Feb 2016 Post subject: |
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Also @mpd72
I can't remember where I saw it but a certain Tory politician said the only way to privatise the NHS is to make the public think it's falling apart.
And now look what's happening...
Jeremy Hunt is pushing half the doctors to go on strike, people think it's gone to the pits, and we have people like you shouting from the roof tops that it's all the doctors' fault.
I wonder how long it'll be before your attitude changes from 'fuck the doctors' to 'fuck the NHS entirely' and then it's mission accomplished, no more NHS, and all the idiots suckered into supporting this direct political attack will look back and say, "Oh the NHS ate itself, just like the miners did when Thatcher took them on! The unions ruined it!" While the reality is it's being ruined by nothing other then the ideological principles of a select few in government.
As I said, fair enough if you agree with a private health care system. But if you're a supporter of a national health service, you really should look deeper into it. The workers are not the ones bringing it down. Everyone was hunky-dory (apart from the odd bit of bad press every now and again, which no industry is immune to) until the Tories gained free reign and Hunt stepped in as health minister. Strange how suddenly everything looks like it's crashing down, is it not..? You need to think about what's changed - the 150'000 doctors who've been doing their thing for years, even decades? Or the new government who only came in a year ago...
| Quote: | No, he comes across as a w4nker, but let's face it, that role is political suicide. Being Health Minister is the short straw.
If you look at the propaganda coming from the unions, it's complete lies and miss-truths. Every single "concern" brought about by the union has been proven to be complete b0llocks, yet people are still peddling it and the foolish are believing it. |
Absolutely nothing to do with him being a proven advocate of a privatised health system then?
EDIT: Found it:
https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/your-practice/practice-topics/practice-income/10-charge-for-gp-appointments-would-raise-the-nhs-12bn-study-finds/20005100.article
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfl1/v/t1.0-9/12376401_1101017399938172_6012970863191680113_n.jpg?oh=22381d7f5bf87af7967bc62ccbb91501&oe=572C86AA |
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Posted: 16:18 - 10 Feb 2016  Post subject: |
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OK, I get it, there's no problem.
Working folk should just take time off to go to 9-5 in-patient appointments, then sit around for hours because they always run late, and that's when they don't just shrug and say "Got no record of it, don't care that you're waving an appointment card at me, you'll need to book it again via your GP. Don't care that you'll need to take yet more time off to try and do that. Not my problem."
Which has happened to me, personally.
Having the maximum provision at the very time when most other people are at work benefits NHS staff, not patients.
What's the cost to the economy of people taking time off work to sit around waiting and waiting and waiting?
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DrSnoosnoo
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| Posted: 16:19 - 10 Feb 2016 Post subject: |
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To build on this link you've provided, I did read it  (proud face)
The comments below discuss some points which should also be taken into account but perhaps the writer isn't adjusting their post?
| Quote: | Of course no existing trainee’s pay will fall (until 2019) because of the ‘pay protection premium’ the whole point of which is to stop that happening. This is however the only real concession in the new offer and is effectively a bribe to pacify current trainees at the expense of future ones.
Based on the existing salary and my current rota per year I work:
8 Saturday days(0800-2030), 8 Saturday nights (2000-0830), 8 Sunday days, 8 Sunday nights and 32 weekday nights along with other lates and standard (8-1730) days averaging 46 hours per week across the year, a fairly intense on call rota.
This qualifies me for 1A rota and my current salary at CT2 is £31 838 basic with a 50% supplement taking this to £47757 per year.
In three years time a CT2 on the same rota (who will have moved outside their pay protection baseline assuming they are an FY1 currently) will earn (based on the information given in the contract offer) £37400 basic but only £3947 extra for the antisocial hours involved giving £41347 gross, a pay cut (not to me personally but to the role which will be identical) of 13.4%.
This will not apply to doctors doing specialty training in specialties that attract the ‘flexible pay premia’ which is essentially taking money from the roles as above and giving it to trainees in specialties where training is currently unattractive (the main reason for this not usually being pay, but working environment) to help keep the overall budget cost neutral.
Under current terms an FY1 this year who has regular working hours of 1230-2200 Tues-Fri and 0800-1730 on Saturday would earn £33954. Next year (as a new starter not eligible for the pay protection premia)they would earn £25500, a cut of 25%.
This is further exacerbated by the fact that our additional banding is unpensionable currently but by increasing basic pay as a proportion of our salaries it will increase our pension contributions by a similar proportion, further impacting on net take-home pay.
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This is one of many posts which talk about cutting pay.
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DrSnoosnoo
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| Posted: 16:22 - 10 Feb 2016 Post subject: |
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| Rogerborg wrote: | OK, I get it, there's no problem.
Working folk should just take time off to go to 9-5 in-patient appointments, then sit around for hours because they always run late, and that's when they don't just shrug and say "Got no record of it, don't care that you're waving an appointment card at me, you'll need to book it again via your GP. Don't care that you'll need to take yet more time off to try and do that. Not my problem."
Which has happened to me, personally.
Having the maximum provision at the very time when most other people are at work benefits NHS staff, not patients.
What's the cost to the economy of people taking time off work to sit around waiting and waiting and waiting? |
Could this be bounced back to your employer, who should give you discretion to be off for the procedure? Sick pay for example?
I'm not saying that is a solution each time but it could work.
EDIt - Pressed submit too soon.
You want there to be elective procedures "out of hours". Should they then, cancel them in hours, the doctors work longer or have more doctors to provide more workable hours for these "out of hours" services?
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| Posted: 16:48 - 10 Feb 2016 Post subject: |
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So he said the bit in brackets did he? Of are those words being put in by the author of this left wing propaganda?
You've got to admit, Labour have some balls to be slagging the Tories off for privatising the NHS. People are quick to forget the PFI deals Labour brought in and the amount of the NHS which was privatised under their leadership.
Labour are in charge of the NHS in Wales. Guess how it's doing? 
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Lord Percy
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| Posted: 17:20 - 10 Feb 2016 Post subject: |
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| Lord Percy wrote: | | mpd72 wrote: |
So he said the bit in brackets did he? Of are those words being put in by the author of this left wing propaganda?
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No, he said, in relation to charging people for GP visits: |
Oh, that's a fairly good idea isn't it?
| Lord Percy wrote: | Admittedly his comment was a little more tame than the AAV guy paints it |
You're not wrong. A small charge to see your GP (unless of course, your a doley, migrant or retired), may dissuade a lot of the not necessary visits for a common cold (apart from the doley's, migrants and coffin dodgers).
This idea is already carried out in some countries. In fact, even on the NHS, you pay a charge to see a dentist.
If doctors surgeries really were more accessible (which mine isn't), maybe les people would be walking into A&E as a convenient drop in centre for medical care?
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Itchy
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| Posted: 18:34 - 10 Feb 2016 Post subject: |
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You're all missing the bigger picture.
The UK economy that underlies everything cannot currently support the spending OR the debt levels. While a lot of people will say oh but the state isn't like a house hold budget! The state can print... since when has printing money ever been a good idea?
So since 2008 all that has happened is that the UK government has stepped between reality and the debts created by banks but this can't go on forever.
Osborn isn't just winding back the state and in this case the contracts of doctors because of ideological reasons, he needs taxes to stay where they are and to provide no service just to keep the system upright.
Between you and me this isn't going to be acceptable. Even if somehow be manages to politically get away with taxing everything as he is but stopping service provision there is a problem with this strategy. He'll just bankrupt the workforce as they have to pay the tax bill plus pay for all the services the state stops providing.
Take for instance police. We effectively have a much reduced service which means more stuff gets stolen which we replace.
So there's only really one way out and they did that in 2008... a lot of people pillory me and say the inflation never happened! Except it did, the economy was two tiered real working peoples' bills increased and ratcheted upwards. Living standards fell.
This is why the Chinese changed strategy. They started buying assets and infrastructure instead of bonds and currency. Those could be inflated away. Hard assets can't.
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Skudd
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| Posted: 19:06 - 10 Feb 2016 Post subject: |
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I used to get time and a half after 6pm and double after 9pm until 7am when it went to time and a half till 8am then normal time from 8am till 6pm on week days, weekends was time and a fifth day time and the enhanced rates as per norm. Sunday was double time plus time in lieu.
Now I get bog standard no matter what hours I work.
My sister is a senior theatre nurse who was getting double time for nights. She worked permanent for over 20 years, then they decided that nights were just the same as days, no problem said she, I will just do days, trouble is no one would do nights, they all had excuses like child minders, work life balance, afraid of the dark, bus services, ghosts. So she is still on nights at reduced pay.
I'm sure all of you would do your job at 11pm on a Saturday night or all day Sunday, you will get a day off mid week though.
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Petty Anarchists look at "1984".............. The Visionary looks at "Animal Farm". |
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The last post was made 8 years, 71 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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