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Super Spammer
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 Posted: 19:50 - 10 Feb 2016  Post subject: |
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| Lord Percy wrote: | | mpd72 wrote: |
If doctors surgeries really were more accessible (which mine isn't), maybe les people would be walking into A&E as a convenient drop in centre for medical care? |
I wonder how many people actually use A&E as a drop-in centre.
Seems like another clear case of liberally applying negative, biased assumptions about everyone around you.
How many people do you actually know who waste GP and A&E time with false problems? They'll be out there I'm sure but the numbers will barely give reason to moan.
Just like you blame benefits claimants for much, much deeper social security and welfare problems, you are now blaming the odd NHS freeloader in exactly the same way. If you seriously think the country's health service problems are caused by people abusing it on the frontline, you're deluded. |
Are you serious? What planet are you on?
https://www.wwl.nhs.uk/News/2010/October/unnecessary_visits_to_a&e_costs_millions.aspx
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-35235539
https://www.pharmaceutical-journal.com/opinion/correspondence/unnecessary-visits-to-ae-will-continue-to-occur/20068313.article
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/8633098/Unnecessary-AandE-visits-costing-100m-a-year.html
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/fifth-ae-visits-unnecessary-cost-5431296
I could carry on if you like...
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Posted: 19:57 - 10 Feb 2016  Post subject: |
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| Skudd wrote: | I'm sure all of you would do your job at 11pm on a Saturday night or all day Sunday, you will get a day off mid week though. |
I worked as a chef when I was younger. Working unsociable long hours for low pay was part par for the course.
Try a 36 hour shift or 6 weeks of 14 hour days (8am-10pm), 7 days a week. No overtime payments...
I progressed and retrained to get a better career.
A Junior doctor will be on a 6 figure salary within a few years and if they're anything like the ones at my local surgery, only work Monday to Friday, 8.30AM-5.00PM or 10.30AM to 7.00PM.
It's time the media and unions stopped twisting the facts and someone told the whiney twats to suck it up for a few years, for their very successful and lavish future lifestyle.
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| Llama-Farmer |
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Llama-Farmer
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| Posted: 20:12 - 10 Feb 2016 Post subject: |
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| mpd72 wrote: | That's how pay rises work. I can't think of a situation where an employer would factor in unknown quantities of future, yet unworked overtime. Can you? |
Doctors consistently and routinely hours and hours of uncontracted overtime that it is easy to work out how much, it's consistent because the NHS relies on it, so it's easy to work out quantities.
| mpd72 wrote: | | Llama-Farmer wrote: |
They wanted a GP service that was available later on weekdays and on Saturdays.
Which they now have. |
No we don't. My GP surgery is open Monday to Thursday, 8.30am to 7PM and Friday 8.30am-5.00pm. Closed Saturday and Sunday. Where are you getting for "facts" from?
| Llama-Farmer wrote: |
This is still in the trial stage in numerous areas |
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See above.
| mpd72 wrote: | | Llama-Farmer wrote: |
Although before this increased service, and even since, EVERY GP SURGERY must provide emergency out-of-hours care for its patients.
Pretty much all surgeries pay urgent care centres or "GP Centres" based at hospitals to provide these emergency out of hours services.
They call their GP surgery and it automatically transfers through, they get an appointment in the middle of the night at an hours notice and get seen by a GP. Or if they're too unwell to travel, a GP will come visit them, usually in one of the green-light DOCTOR cars (although green lights are only used for time critical emergencies which most cases are not) |
This is cobblers. My surgery directs me to the NHS 111 service out of hours. Look at the link I provided.
Are you sure you're not just making this up as you go along, because none of it rings true with my local NHS surgery?
This is the whole problem, so many lies and mistruths have been peddled by the unions and left wingers, that people actually believe half of this guff as fact now. |
I'm not commenting on your GP surgery specifically, yes there are some exceptions and differences, but they all still have to arrange and fund provision of emergency care for all their patients.
Calling 111 will get you seen by an out-of-hours service.
If a GP surgery has opted for a different out-of-hours provider then the surgery number will redirect you through, or may tell you to call a number, but the point isn't whether you need to call or you get directed through automatically, the point is that out-of-hours gp service is available to every registered patient at every practice in the country.
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| Posted: 21:04 - 10 Feb 2016 Post subject: |
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| Llama-Farmer wrote: | out-of-hours gp service is available to every registered patient at every practice in the country. |
My mother fell and hit her head a few years back in the early morning. She managed to call me, and I went over to find her semi lucid. After playing Phone Quest for a good 20 minutes getting redirected, disconnected, listening to "Call gabble-babble-mabble" messages, and then going through the flowchart fun on 111, I eventually dialled 999 and got the blue lights there. How someone who's actually ill is meant to get useful help other than by mashing 9 is beyond me.
In theory there's no difference between theory and practice, right?
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Lord Percy
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Posted: 00:36 - 11 Feb 2016  Post subject: |
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Heh, you win there.
However I still don't think it has anything to do with what Jeremy Hunt is getting up to. A&E waiting times are just waiting times. No matter how long the queue at the waiting room is, it doesn't change what's going on in the building.
As was mentioned earlier in this discussion, the real work is when GP's refer patients to a hospital for actual treatment that has been recommended for them. This is the bulk of the work and is what will be affected most by any sort of attack on the NHS. A&E shows a certain childish dependency by some people but is hardly evidence for a failing healthcare system. |
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Posted: 02:37 - 11 Feb 2016  Post subject: |
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| mpd72 wrote: | Depends if they choose to work directly for the NHS, then it's up to about £85k, or if they go private or join a practice as a partner. |
You seem to completely not understand the banded pay structure, progression steps or requirements doctors (or other qualified staff) go through to train or specialise in specific areas and how that impacts their pay as a result. ''Upto 85k'' does not mean they slide into earning 85k. Many never get close to that. The vast majority of doctors are not a ''local practice GP'' etc - the majority of doctors are easily mistaken for nurses in a busy ward environment and get treated, paid and acknowledged no better than nurses either.
I've worked for the NHS. I've worked for private healthcare. And i've worked agency/locum services. They do differ - specifically, pay is better in agency/locum, average in private and worst in the NHS, generally. Currently I choose to work for the NHS, as do most people who have properly tried the other alternatives and give a flying fuck about their job. Thats simply because the other systems are fundamentally parasitic and don't work - they defeat the whole purpose of this sort of job and thats no ''bawww'' about money either, private or out-sourced services generally fail catastrophically at a national level. Unfortunately we're ''managed'' at a top-level by imbeciles who not only don't care to acknowledge these problems, but have vested interests in ignoring them. I can't even be bothered to find new links - i've posted this before and its just as relevant now.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/ournhs/jos-bell/tory-links-of-health-agencies-exposed-as-hunt-lines-up-next-nhs-selloff-in-england
https://socialinvestigations.blogspot.co.uk/p/key-facts-of-lords-and-mps-connections.html
And for what its worth - before the usual rants about ''NHS management'', ''fat cats'' and ''doctors'' start, a hell of a lot of NHS managment and senior doctors are anything but pen-pushers and golden-armchair skivers. They're people who have previously/continue working as front line staff. I've known numerous managers etc who have spent their time literally sweeping piss, blood and vomit off floors at times, just to avoid needing to pay extortionate rates for agency cleaners, thanks to government cuts leaving them with no essential cleaning staff, amongst others. If you don't work in the environment you really can't comprehend the level of negligence the government (whatever token party that is) repeatedly thinks is acceptable, or the level of effort many people in the NHS goto in order to keep things ticking along.
| Quote: | Many doctors go on to earn serious salaries. My ex wife's grandad was a senior consultant and retired a very rich man. |
So, to repeat what I said before - most doctors earn no where near a 6 figure salary. Most other NHS staff, even those working and ''taking advantage'' of unsocial hour perks and so forth, are far from well off and far from having much free time either.
You're referencing someones grandad, who was a consultant. Do you even understand how much the NHS changes on an annual basis, nevermind over a decade, or decades? Its the equivalent of comparing ''my grandad at dunkirk got paid...'' in reference to a squaddie in bastion's salary a few years ago. The relevence is nil. If you want to see what the privatised, profit driven, lobby controlled healthcare system we're descending towards looks like - the U.S.A is a great pilot project.
https://time.com/2888403/u-s-health-care-ranked-worst-in-the-developed-world/
Do feel free to actually research this in more detail before stating stuff thats completely inaccuate, but in the meantime theres a very simplified overview.
Whilst people are predictably busy panicing about terrorism and the other usual repetitive scare-stories, the one thing the our country is actually good at on a global level - healthcare; is be being purposely broken apart and sold to the highest bidder regardless of how many thousands of people will die as a direct result. |
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Llama-Farmer
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| Posted: 03:29 - 11 Feb 2016 Post subject: |
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| Rogerborg wrote: | My mother fell and hit her head a few years back in the early morning. She managed to call me, and I went over to find her semi lucid. After playing Phone Quest for a good 20 minutes getting redirected, disconnected, listening to "Call gabble-babble-mabble" messages, and then going through the flowchart fun on 111, I eventually dialled 999 and got the blue lights there. How someone who's actually ill is meant to get useful help other than by mashing 9 is beyond me.
In theory there's no difference between theory and practice, right? |
I am sorry for your bad experience, but it is not always the case.
Unfortunately it is very variable between geographical areas, but the NHS has already outsourced so much to the lowest bidder, and the people who answer the phones for these kind of services is one of them.
The Sheffield GP out-of-hours service had their phone lines down over Christmas during the floods. Because the telephones get answered by a privatised contract company up in Leeds, and their office flooded.
In order to keep the costs down these people answering the phones have no medical training, they're just call centre monkeys who follow a script. This is to the detriment of the patients, but thats the way the NHS is going, and it's only going to get worse.
They don't know what is and isn't important when they hear it (whereas a doctor or nurse would) so they need to follow algorithms to tell them. Often this part of the system is automated as it can cope with more people at once and reduce the time they speak to a real person (thereby reducing the number of people required... another way to save this private company money and therefore bid even lower).
The vast majority of the time, for Sheffield at least, (and services in many other cities are broadly the same) the patients will get a call back within 30 minutes from a GP who is able to determine the problem, and how serious it is, and can then triage that patient and if necessary book them an appointment or make a visit. Or indeed if necessary send an emergency ambulance, or a transport ambulance.
If you think it is bad now and getting worse, it WILL only get much worse if the Tory government continue with the plans they have made public.
And god forbid they force through their hidden agenda.
If healthcare becomes like the USA (which is what they are trying to do) then I will seriously consider leaving the UK for good and moving back to New Zealand. Sure the kiwis sound ridiculous, and the new technology there is what the rest of the world had 5 years ago, but at least the healthcare is still run exceptionally well (and theirs wasn't even as good as the NHS, which has continued to go from better to worse the more politics tries to interfere)
| mpd72 wrote: | Depends if they choose to work directly for the NHS, then it's up to about £85k, or if they go private or join a practice as a partner.
Many doctors go on to earn serious salaries. My ex wife's grandad was a senior consultant and retired a very rich man. |
Thats like comparing what a public defendant makes compared to a corporate city lawyer. It's a completely different ballgame.
Private work pays so well because you get it almost immediately rather than having to wait months for it.
(Having said that, I had a pretty major surgery a few year ago on the NHS that I had to wait only 3 weeks for, and it was elective surgery for which there were other non-surgical treatments that I could have gone for)
As most private work is paid or supplemented by insurance, they charge the insurance companies more than they do for self-paying patients, this has the effect of insurance essentially subsidising non-insurance treatments reducing the cost to the self-paying person.
As someone who used to work (as a porter) in a private hospital during 6th form/university, about 30% of the patients we had were referred FROM the three NHS hospitals in Sheffield to the two main private hospitals because they couldn't cope.
So NHS patients were having their surgeries performed in private hospitals (at no cost to themselves, which is good) but at a much greater cost to the NHS than if the hospitals could cope in the first place.
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| grr666 |
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Posted: 10:56 - 11 Feb 2016  Post subject: |
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What's the betting this is the first couple of batches of Doctors coming through taught using the 'it's all about taking part'™
method of education, 'Lets give them an A* for trying bless their cotton socks..." Now the complete lack of ability
to tackle any sort of adversity whatsoever comes home to roost and of course the poor dahlings can't handle it. Quelle surprise.
Okay, I've read enough blah blah blah, here's a simple and blunt question. Why go into medicine at all?
Answer me that? Because if it's all about helping the weak and poorly people, then pay and conditions should
be a secondary concern. Shouldn't it? Or are did the Junior Doctors just realise about 5 years too late that they
made a really bad career choice signing up to work for a crippled, redundant, wasteful, mismanaged
organisation that is more of a political football than a useful and efficient public service. One that has it's
days well and truly numbered. Not to mention that it's a service that the productive struggle to access at
all despite us being the mugs that fund it. Maybe it's learning (a fair bit too late) that the NHS can have it's funding
drastically altered or indeed cut permanently with the stroke of a pen. If that glaringly obvious point has been missed by
these clever junior doctors then I have my doubts about their compatability with reality as they haven't
yet twigged they are working for what is essentially a charity.
Perhaps is it the practical realisation that the needy are needy 7 days a week around the clock? All I can say
to those people is DUH! Outstretched hands never take a day off. 5 minutes working for the NHS should
confirm that? How do the Doctors react when they realise this? They stop working and hold their hand out?
Well, it works for the slackers. Right?? Wrong. Welcome to the real world kids, have a nice stay.
Whaddya know? Altruism and idealism don't pay the bills. Who knew?
I have 5 GCSEs (two of those were fails) and I knew. As I sit here in one of my several fully paid for houses,
it's clear that I learned that lesson a lot of years ago, despite my obvious social disadvantage of not having
a degree or doctorate. It's a wonder I manage to get through the day at all...
I'm not running Doctors down, it's a very technical and noble profession, but they aren't hand picked by god.
However there's nothing noble about watching all these Jeremys and Jemimas waving their placards around on TV
when they realise a brand new BMW each year and 5 bedroom house in the Cotswolds isn't automatically in reach the moment
they qualify. In fact that serves to erode my opinion of them.
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Last edited by grr666 on 10:59 - 11 Feb 2016; edited 1 time in total |
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Super Spammer
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| Posted: 10:58 - 11 Feb 2016 Post subject: |
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| Llama-Farmer wrote: |
Doctors consistently and routinely hours and hours of uncontracted overtime that it is easy to work out how much, it's consistent because the NHS relies on it, so it's easy to work out quantities. |
They are having their maximum hours cut from an average 56 p/w to 48 over a 6 month period. A fact which most "supporters" of this little tiff are conveniently forgetting, when banging on about tired doctors being dangerous.
| Llama-Farmer wrote: | See above. |
I looked, but didn't see anything to prove all GP surgeries are now open on Saturdays. As I've already proved, mine isn't.
| Llama-Farmer wrote: | I'm not commenting on your GP surgery specifically, yes there are some exceptions and differences, but they all still have to arrange and fund provision of emergency care for all their patients.
Calling 111 will get you seen by an out-of-hours service.
If a GP surgery has opted for a different out-of-hours provider then the surgery number will redirect you through, or may tell you to call a number, but the point isn't whether you need to call or you get directed through automatically, the point is that out-of-hours gp service is available to every registered patient at every practice in the country. |
Cobblers. Calling 111 is nothing what so ever to do with my local surgery. Adding that advice to the website is another way of saying "were closed, find someone else. Here's the national NHS number. Good luck".
People have this rose tinted view of the NHS, so badly that half the "facts" being banded about in this strike are completely fictional.
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Llama-Farmer
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| Posted: 11:58 - 11 Feb 2016 Post subject: |
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| mpd72 wrote: |
I looked, but didn't see anything to prove all GP surgeries are now open on Saturdays. As I've already proved, mine isn't.
Cobblers. Calling 111 is nothing what so ever to do with my local surgery. Adding that advice to the website is another way of saying "were closed, find someone else. Here's the national NHS number. Good luck".
People have this rose tinted view of the NHS, so badly that half the "facts" being banded about in this strike are completely fictional. |
I never said all surgeries are, I said in this current trial that several surgeries are getting together with ONE surgery providing the service to patients from all the surgeries, with the surgery rotating.
So say there are 7 surgeries.
Surgery 1 does Monday evening.
2 does Tuesday, 3 Wednesday, 4 Thursday, 5 Friday, 6 & 7 Saturday.
But patients from all 7 surgeries can get an appointment at any of those additional sessions.
The trouble is, despite all these people claiming they can't get an appointment, and that they need evening/weekend availability so they don't have to take time off work, these surgery sessions are not being used... only 30-40% of appointments are being booked up.
So the trial is going to look pointless at this rate and it won't get taken up nationally.
So when you get seen by a GP after calling 111, who do you think funds that out-of-hours GP service? It's (partly) the surgeries through out of hours provision funds.
And you appear to have crap-tinted glasses and can't seem to grasp the idea that the doctors are acting reasonably.
98% of doctors who voted were in favour of strikes. Never have I come across such a majority in any other kind of industrial dispute. They are intelligent people and logical thinkers, they have to be as doctors, they're not being led like sheep into this strike.
Despite the state of the NHS, they've continued working without such action for decades, the fact that not a single doctor (or other clinical health professional) has supported the contract, and that nearly all of them voted to strike speaks volumes... no health secretary in recent history has fucked up this much when dealing with the NHS and that shows who or what the problem is, and it ain't the NHS workers.
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| Posted: 12:56 - 11 Feb 2016 Post subject: |
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| Lord Percy wrote: |
Your opinions are laughable. |
Pot meet Kettle.
| Lord Percy wrote: | I've lost count of the amount of times I've read about hospital staff working non-stop, forgoing breaks and lunch times, fainting at work etc. Or are they complaining about this because they just haven't got used to 'hard work' yet..? 
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Stop reading The Guardian then... 
If you cut through the bullsh1t in this debate, being spread around social media and by the unions. All the "concerns" have been debunked.
I've posted links to show this, even from the BMA. It's just that some liberal lefties like to ignore facts and carry on peddling the mistruths because it fits their anti Tory agenda.
"We're going to work longer hours" - No you're not, your maximum working hours are being cut from 56 to 48 hours over a 6 month period.
"It's dangerous, we'll accidentally kill people due to longer hours" - No you won't see above....
"We're going to get less money" - No you're not, because the government is offering “pay protection” for anyone who would potentially see their pay cut thanks to the changes.
"We don't want to work Saturdays" - Get a career that's not needed 7 days a week then.
"We're not getting overtime rate for shifts on Saturdays or 7PM to 11PM" - No, that's what your 11% rise in basic pay is to cover.
"But, but,... but... it's not fair... bahhh!"
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 12:57 - 11 Feb 2016 Post subject: |
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BOOM, imposition.
What will we do when 98% of them move abroad? 
| Llama-Farmer wrote: | The trouble is, despite all these people claiming they can't get an appointment, and that they need evening/weekend availability so they don't have to take time off work, these surgery sessions are not being used... only 30-40% of appointments are being booked up. |
How well publicised was it?
I ask because when I search for my local surgery online, the top four hits give either dead links or contradictory contact detail and opening times.
Hold the phone! I can book an appointment online! Aaaaand... it's a dead link.
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| angryjonny |
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angryjonny
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Joined: 01 Sep 2006
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| arry |
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arry
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| Posted: 13:40 - 11 Feb 2016 Post subject: |
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I'm not going to comment specifically on the strike action rights or wrongs because I've really not followed the developments but the comment above above rose tinted glasses and NHS I couldn't agree more with.
It's a fucking laughable shambles - anyone that's used private healthcare would I'm sure agree. I'll never go without private medical again through choice; I value my health so much that I'm willing to pay for my own healthcare on top of the reach around I get from NI to pay for everyone else's in order to receive medical treatments in a manner that doesn't involve waiting 3 years after 15 cheapest option first operations following 20 GP referrals involving 30 back and forth appointments
Fuck the poor  |
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| DrSnoosnoo |
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DrSnoosnoo
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| Posted: 13:44 - 11 Feb 2016 Post subject: |
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| mpd72 wrote: | Stop reading The Guardian then...
If you cut through the bullsh1t in this debate, being spread around social media and by the unions. All the "concerns" have been debunked.
I've posted links to show this, even from the BMA. It's just that some liberal lefties like to ignore facts and carry on peddling the mistruths because it fits their anti Tory agenda.
...
"We're going to get less money" - No you're not, because the government is offering “pay protection” for anyone who would potentially see their pay cut thanks to the changes.
"We don't want to work Saturdays" - Get a career that's not needed 7 days a week then.
"We're not getting overtime rate for shifts on Saturdays or 7PM to 11PM" - No, that's what your 11% rise in basic pay is to cover.
"But, but,... but... it's not fair... bahhh!" |
Did you read some of the comments below the article you shared from channel 4's blogsite? There were many examples of how pay is being cut.
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I'm Sam; Northern, Ginger, Lover
Did have: '95 ZZR600 '83 CG125 '97 ZZR1100 '15 Hypermotard 821 SP Do Have: '10 ZX10R |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 8 years, 76 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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