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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 10:12 - 06 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
I noticed the gallant Junior Snowflakes, well really it's their Union, have called the strike off because they "couldn't guarantee patient safety".

I strongly suspect this might just be a Union PR stunt to try to boost public sympathy for them again, as public support for their continued whining isn't quite as strong as these polls make out.

I mean, having their hours cut and pay increased is disgusting, in return for working a few evenings and Saturday day times.

How many times has the government already offered them an improved deal in negotiations with the BMA? Is it once, twice? three times already?


If it was that simplistic I'm sure we wouldn't be having strikes about it.

Doctors, even junior ones are not stupid people. If they think the deal on offer would be worse than the one they have at the moment it probably is. Lets not forget they can work stupidly long hours with their current deal.

Anyway, withdrawal of labour is their right. Unlike the MP's, they don't have a lapdog of a pay committee to give them 8% or whatever it was.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:25 - 06 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
as public support for their continued whining isn't quite as strong as these polls make out.

Having the Grown Up Doctors tell them to stop being so bloody silly and take the extra money and reduced hours might have helped.
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 11:53 - 06 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:

If it was that simplistic I'm sure we wouldn't be having strikes about it.


What's it over then? The New Deal has been adjusted already in their favor, to shut the feckers up. All it involves is less hours and more money in exchange for including up to 10pm weekdays and Saturday daytime as normal hours.

Polarbear wrote:
Doctors, even junior ones are not stupid people.


"Save our NHS"?! - How is a new deal, bringing the NHS out of the dark ages and making it more user friendly destroying it? The BMA are dressing this up as the government destroying the NHS, when it reality, the government are just trying to improve it for the patients.

Polarbear wrote:
If they think the deal on offer would be worse than the one they have at the moment it probably is. Lets not forget they can work stupidly long hours with their current deal.


"They" - this is the problem, "They" have been misled by their union. The fixed "pay calculator" which the union put up to pretend Junior Snowflakes would be worse off is a prime example.

Polarbear wrote:
Anyway, withdrawal of labour is their right. Unlike the MP's, they don't have a lapdog of a pay committee to give them 8% or whatever it was.


No, they have an (anti right wing government) union to blackmail the public if they're not getting special enough privileges from the tax payer. This is just political posturing from a left wing union, the JD's will believe anything the union tells them.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:31 - 06 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
"They" have been misled by their union.

To be fair, their union recommended that they take the current deal after they successfully blackmailed even more money-money-money out of the taxpayer.

But the snowflakes had a meltdown and voted no, want more. Democracy is just super-great as long as your lot wins.

The BMA JD leader resigned over their tantrum: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-36717869

... which let in this Bo'-Selecta-faced champagne-socialist hypocritical heifer who's rabble roused them good and proper: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/01/mother-of-junior-doctors-strike-leader-was-nurses-firebrand-who/

They're not all unethical though. At least one JDC committee member actually gives a stuff about patients: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/05/junior-doctors-strikes-suspended/
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 17:09 - 06 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was much said about this at the time?

Leaked risk assessment regarding Hunt's apparently wonderful 7-day NHS plans.

http://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/57155521285902d0b1222f21ccff9e1776da2002/45_127_790_474/master/790.jpg?w=1920&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=6baf439dec4fd5f5463dd434a39ef1fd
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 17:45 - 06 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like every other shiny-backside covering project risk assessment that I've seen, but with added #BlameBrexit and... what's that at the bottom? Equalities. Laughing
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 22:18 - 06 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:


The Guardian eh? Wonder what slant they'll put on the story?
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Llama-Farmer
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PostPosted: 08:23 - 07 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:

What's it over then? The New Deal has been adjusted already in their favor, to shut the feckers up. All it involves is redefining "weekend" as a Sunday. And asking to provide 7 days of service for 5 days funding.



mpd72 wrote:

"They" - this is the problem, "They the government" have misled their public. The lies that Jeremy Hunt spread, the data and studies that he a) purposefully misrepresented, or b) ignorantly misinterpreted then presented as truth, the refusal to accept you can't have something for nothing (7 days work for 5 days funding)




Seems you're getting wise in your old age there mpd,
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 09:52 - 07 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Llama-Farmer wrote:
7 days of service for 5 days funding.


Not this again? They are asking them to spread the hours they work. We went through this time and time again with very basic examples which most root vegetables could comprehend.

There will not be more patients, they will just be more evenly spread, like the JD requirements. It's not effing rocket science.

Llama-Farmer wrote:

"They" - this is the problem, "They the government" have misled their public. The lies that Jeremy Hunt spread, the data and studies that he a) purposefully misrepresented, or b) ignorantly misinterpreted then presented as truth, the refusal to accept you can't have something for nothing (7 days work for 5 days funding)


The public aren't the ones going on strike Trigger. Rolling Eyes

The level of work and funding does not change, see the point above or ask someone to explain it to you.
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Llama-Farmer
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PostPosted: 19:45 - 07 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:

Not this again? They are asking them to spread the hours they work. We went through this time and time again with very basic examples which most root vegetables could comprehend.

There will not be more patients, they will just be more evenly spread, like the JD requirements. It's not effing rocket science.



And you failed time and time again to demonstrate how they are going to prevent an increase in the patients and ensure the same number just spread over more days, despite examples to the contrary.
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 20:58 - 07 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Same number of staff spread over more days and less hours = understaffed?

Or is that just me?

As a point in focus, we're down to 3 1/2 staff from 8 this week, due to a sacking, two holidays, and a trade exhibition in Europe, and put it this way, i can't wait for the week to end. Started early and finished late every day this week. And in the grand scheme of things, that's infinitely less work than anyone working in a hospital.
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 21:30 - 07 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Llama-Farmer wrote:
mpd72 wrote:

Not this again? They are asking them to spread the hours they work. We went through this time and time again with very basic examples which most root vegetables could comprehend.

There will not be more patients, they will just be more evenly spread, like the JD requirements. It's not effing rocket science.



And you failed time and time again to demonstrate how they are going to prevent an increase in the patients and ensure the same number just spread over more days, despite examples to the contrary.


Their job is to look after NHS patients. I see no reason for this number suddenly changing anymore than it already does.

Under the new deal, how do you envisage this number of people needing care increasing? Uncontrolled immigration or people just fancying a night out queueing up that the hospital?
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 21:32 - 07 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jewlio has less common sense than a parsnip wrote:
Same number of staff spread over more days and less hours = understaffed?

Or is that just me?

As a point in focus, we're down to 3 1/2 staff from 8 this week, due to a sacking, two holidays, and a trade exhibition in Europe, and put it this way, i can't wait for the week to end. Started early and finished late every day this week. And in the grand scheme of things, that's infinitely less work than anyone working in a hospital.


Hey another root vegetable!

Same number of patients, treatment over a longer period = less doctors needed at any one time.

Go on Trigger, think long and hard, then ask you mum! Wink
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 21:39 - 07 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Except it won't be the same number of patients over a longer period of time. Or are you suggesting that they'll suddenly stop emergency patients, saying hangonamo, we've filed our quota today, come back tomorrow?

Or are you saying that the routine appointments will suddenly stop being made in the week? Or will they still have the same number of appointments during the week, with the added number available at the weekend, because waiting lists?

Or are you autie and think everything is so black and white?
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 21:50 - 07 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jewlio Rides Again wrote:
Except it won't be the same number of patients over a longer period of time. Or are you suggesting that they'll suddenly stop emergency patients, saying hangonamo, we've filed our quota today, come back tomorrow?

Or are you saying that the routine appointments will suddenly stop being made in the week? Or will they still have the same number of appointments during the week, with the added number available at the weekend, because waiting lists?

Or are you autie and think everything is so black and white?


The government are trying to make the NHS more convenient for the tax payers who fund it. Probably a bit too hard for you to grasp, but try.

Where are all these new patients coming from, needing the same concentration of staffing as over the shorter periods of current less convenient (to the public/customers/people who pay their wages) hours?

On a personal note, I'm happy they are striking as I presume they get feck all money from the tax payer? We could seriously cut the NHS budget if Operation Snowflake carries on with its little "look at me" strop.
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 23:50 - 07 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you a bit dim? Not needed nhs treatment recently?

There's these little things for non emergency appointments called 'waiting lists'. Some can be 6 months long. Despite all this bullshit about how they've dropped.

Spread 50 people out over 7 days, or get 70 in that 7 days and proclaim the end of waiting lists?

Are you sure you're not autistic?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 08:31 - 08 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jewlio Rides Again wrote:
Spread 50 people out over 7 days, or get 70 in that 7 days

Because all of a sudden the number of patients scheduled for any given day won't have to be related to the (reduced) number of sawbones available on that day?

Well sure, if you're going to invent entirely new and unrelated problems. But since we're in Imagination Land, why wait for the 7 day NHS to implement that?

Jeremy Hunt could just personally call up everybody on all the waiting lists and tell them to come in tomorrow. Then he'd summon all the JD's to the Old Abandoned Bedlam Asylum, and cackle "Your much vaunted universal access shall avail thee naught against my nefarious schemes!", twirl his moustaches, <SMOKEBOMB.gif> and he flies away on his Robo-Dactyl.
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 09:53 - 08 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jewlio Rides Again wrote:
Are you a bit dim? Not needed nhs treatment recently?

There's these little things for non emergency appointments called 'waiting lists'. Some can be 6 months long. Despite all this bullshit about how they've dropped.

Spread 50 people out over 7 days, or get 70 in that 7 days and proclaim the end of waiting lists?

Are you sure you're not autistic?


That's fact is it?
Or does it just fit your agenda?

If we cut through the bullsh1t involved in this disagreement, it's really all about the money. The union have been PR'ing it as "patent safety", when that's not the reason for the grievance.

Junior Snowflakes already work evenings and weekends and they do very well out of the overtime wheeze. Too well it appears, when many manage to double their salary as an apprentice.

The government are trying to get them to include some of the hours, which would normally attract overtime, as normal rate. In return they get an 11% basic pay rise.
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Llama-Farmer
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PostPosted: 12:04 - 08 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

They'll have appointments increased, 7 days and late into the evening means there are more working hours in the day for appointments. Except theres now fewer people spread thinner in order to cover it all.


If you think waiting lists are bad now, and then waiting times once you turn up are bad, wait until they fuck it up even more.

Routine goings on planned until 10pm could well see appointments running on into the early hours. Patients will get fed up of that and cancel then have to go back into the system again causing more chaos.


They tried it with 10 minute GP appointments and now everyone complains they have to wait hours and can't get any appointments. It's because it just cannot work. Especially with complex cases where there are more than one issue, in people with chronic long-term illness and disease, on multiple medications and additional meds to counteract the side effects of the first lot. You need half an hour to see a patient like that, not 10 minutes.



You seem absolutely convinced that it will all work, yet offer not a single shred of evidence that shows how they will make it work.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:30 - 08 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Llama-Farmer wrote:
They'll have appointments increased, [he asserted, and yet offered] not a single shred of evidence that shows how they will [do that]

Same question as to Jewlio above.

This entirely independent and new problem you've just imagineered, of suddenly and inexplicably scheduling more work per doctor per hour, from where did you obtain it? Did it require rubber gloves and lube to pull it out?
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 12:35 - 08 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Llama-Farmer wrote:
They'll have appointments increased, 7 days and late into the evening means there are more working hours in the day for appointments. Except theres now fewer people spread thinner in order to cover it all.


Again...

That's fact is it?
Or does it just fit your agenda?

I remember pubs extending their opening hours, I don't remember all these new drinkers coming out of the woodwork. Where are all these new increased numbers of patients materialising from?
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Llama-Farmer
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PostPosted: 16:52 - 08 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
Llama-Farmer wrote:
They'll have appointments increased, 7 days and late into the evening means there are more working hours in the day for appointments. Except theres now fewer people spread thinner in order to cover it all.


Again...

That's fact is it?
Or does it just fit your agenda?

I remember pubs extending their opening hours, I don't remember all these new drinkers coming out of the woodwork. Where are all these new increased numbers of patients materialising from?



From the 9 month waiting lists.
From the fact that one doctor doesn't just see one patient then move onto the next.
From the fact that when faced with a surgery or clinic thats running 2 hours late, people aren't going to sit around until 10pm for their convenient 8pm appointment, they'll just selfishly fuck off then moan about how they can't get another appointment that suits them, they'll have to be forced back into the system as another patient.

From the execs who have targets to hit and if they can wedge another load of patients in to reduce the waiting list, you think they won't do whatever suits their agenda? They don't have the NHS or the patients interests in mind, only their own.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 17:13 - 08 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, why don't they just go ahead and schedule in more appointments per doctor-hour today?

For what are they waiting?
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 17:45 - 08 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Llama-Farmer wrote:

From the 9 month waiting lists.


How are they going to do this when the new deal limits their hours more than the current deal does?
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 00:25 - 13 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seen on SAVE THE HORTON (Banbury hospital) on Facebook at 23:28.

Quote:
Sat at A&E at the moment with you two year after he banged his head and the waiting time is 5 hours!! They want him to see a Paed doc but we're still waiting. Come just before half 8ish seen triage and the wait begins. Patients are on trolleys in the corridors waiting to be seen and all cubicles are rammed! You idiots at the trust seriously want to get rid of our hospital!!!!!


I can't help thinking that if he's been through triage he's been assessed as low risk and should probably go home. This is why A&E is rammed. They probably only want to assess how he got the injury. Obviously I can't say this on Facebook for fear of being savaged by The Mothers. I support the NHS and the Horton campaign all the way but I recognise there are limits to what it should be expected to achieve.
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