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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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 Posted: 20:21 - 09 Mar 2016  Post subject: Greenpeace founder: CO2 is awesome, let's make more |
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Quite a long talky talk, but it's earball opening and I reckon you'll find it provocative regardless of your preconceptions.
The gist is that CO2 is awesome. It's not a "pollutant", it's biomass. CO2 is food for people. CO2 is people.
Due to reduced volcanism putting less CO2 in the air but sea beasties continuing to capture it, if we hadn't started burning fossil fuels, the earth would have had about another 2 millions years until we hit a 150ppm CO2 trough where, wait for it, plants would just die. All plants. Everywhere. No takesy-backsies.
CO2 causes warming? Well, what if it does? Awesome! Fuck glaciers. A few degrees rise will open up huge areas of habitable land in Canada and Russia. Bring it!
Except sadly it doesn't look as though it will, because very (very) approximate correlation isn't causation and all the actual, you know, evidence points to historical CO2 rises lagging temperature rises by centuries, not leading them.
And yes,t here's been a pause in warming since 2000. Unless you "correct" those inconvenient measurements of past and present temperatures ("correcting" past readings down and "correcting" current ones up), because obviously the measurements must be wrong because obviously warming must have continued because obviously the entire global alarmist industry can't be exposed as a bunch of rabid fraudsters.
Then he's off on genetic modification. Guess what? Awesome! "Golden rice" with beta-carotene in it would save millions of children's lives and prevent blindness. Greenpeace shrieks "No! Because what if there are unknown risks? Rrararararg, people bad!"
DDT (pesticide)? Super awesome. Spray, baby, spray.
Fun times, fun times.
https://co2coalition.org/
____________________
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GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| Triton Thrasher |
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Triton Thrasher
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| Lord Percy |
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Lord Percy
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| Posted: 22:26 - 09 Mar 2016 Post subject: Re: Greenpeace founder: CO2 is awesome, let's make more |
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https://co2coalition.org/about/
Sure they all have "PhD geophysicist superhero" tacked onto their names but count how many have links to 'Energy' and Exxonmobil....
The debate is welcomed, but I think there are still far more who think contrary to these guys. |
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| Im-a-Ridah |
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Im-a-Ridah
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 08:33 - 10 Mar 2016 Post subject: Re: Greenpeace founder: CO2 is awesome, let's make more |
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| Lord Percy wrote: | count how many have links to 'Energy' and Exxonmobil.... |
Rararraragh, energy bad! Cave good!
Why would that be a negative thing? Your entire lifestyle - rural Oriental idylls aside - is absolutely dependent on "energy".
So some ships crash, some penguins get glooped, very sad. But a few billion people are alive because of "energy".
Is it about vested interests? Well, fair enough. Of course deniers want nothing to change, business is good, we've all got books to sell.
But on the other side, the alarmists are making their living from selling a problem, and I suspect there's strong selection bias at play. I reckon you'd have to look far and wide to find a science-alarmist who wasn't a hug-a-dolphin hippy before they started "correcting" the facts to conform to the theory.
If we're deciding verity by following the money, Al Gore, alarmist-in-chief, just bought an ocean-front mansion.
| Lord Percy wrote: | but I think there are still far more who think contrary to these guys. |
There are far more who believe in magical sky fairies because of what they done did get told. That doesn't make it true.
It's bothered me for some time that climate alarmists insist that the "science is settled". That's what Heliocentrists and Aristotelian elementalists said when they were on the back foot. Pay no attention to the pause behind the curtain. When we "correct" the numbers to match our model, our model predicts the numbers!
But let's for the sake of argument accept that the science is settled, that CO2 rises to something like 500ppm (historically still a very low figure) and that this causes a temperature rise of 2 or even 3 degrees compared to some arbitrary Garden of Eden point in the past (presumably not a glacial period).
Still good. CO2, good. Temperature rise, good. More usable land will be opened up than will be lost. But, but, change. People will be displaced. Some will be better off, but some will be worse off. Things that were built here will have to be built there instead.
Well, we're a plucky species, I reckon we'll muddle though.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| Lord Percy |
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Lord Percy
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| Posted: 12:46 - 10 Mar 2016 Post subject: Re: Greenpeace founder: CO2 is awesome, let's make more |
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| Rogerborg wrote: |
Why would that be a negative thing? Your entire lifestyle - rural Oriental idylls aside - is absolutely dependent on "energy".
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I'm all for nuclear and electrification, personally. We could live as we do today, or even consume more power than we currently do, and have cleaner, greener air than we've had for a century or two. Sure there'd still be a need for some fossil fuel processes, but not much. Just big combustion engines e.g. planes and some trains maybe. Power stations could all be nuclear though.
I've mentioned this book before - Sustainable Energy Without the Hot Air - by one of the top engineering/physics guys at Cambridge uni. It's highly informative, explains the energy usage of the UK and puts forward numerous solutions for how to move forward. Nuclear is the blatant answer but he doesn't spell it out.
We could live as we do today, and a country the size of the UK would only use about about a living room-sized lump of nuclear fuel per year.
Energy problems solved, and no more overly high man-made CO2 emissions. Win-win 
| Quote: |
Well, we're a plucky species, I reckon we'll muddle though. |
I think we will too, to be honest. Polar bears might not though.
I think the problem is the accelerated rate at which the earth is warming. Humans are probably fine, but a lot of ecosystems could be destroyed by some of the changes. Not the end of the world (heh), but the knock-on effects may not necessarily play in our favour.
I think the global warming campaign is mainly focussed on preventing the changes because it'll cause too much hardship to wade through. We'll survive it, but plenty will have a very rough deal along the way, thanks to coastal populations being displaced, and increasing droughts in newly formed desert areas. That kind of thing.
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/05/sci_nat_how_the_world_is_changing/html/1.stm
https://metro.co.uk/2015/01/21/shocking-before-and-after-glacier-images-reveal-impact-of-climate-change-5030357/
Population areas aren't immune to these changes. |
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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Posted: 13:09 - 10 Mar 2016  Post subject: Re: Greenpeace founder: CO2 is awesome, let's make more |
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| Lord Percy wrote: | no more overly high man-made CO2 emissions |
Why is that a bad thing? CO2 means happy plants and fed humans.
And "overly high" compared to what? 400ppm is still an historic trough. Mother Gaia has managed to muddle by at up to 7,000ppm, but we've picked some pre-industrial 280-ish point as representing an eternal Utopia.
Bad because warming? Without human CO2 emissions, then the planet would cool - that's if there's a causative link, as the alarmists claim.
We're in an ice age, and we're due a glaciation period. Overdue, actually.
Out of warming or glaciation, I know which one I prefer.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| Lord Percy |
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Lord Percy
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 14:56 - 10 Mar 2016 Post subject: |
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| Lord Percy wrote: | human contributing factors are accelerating this natural process. |
Accelerating towards awesome!
https://rebelliousreverence.typepad.com/.a/6a0162ff74b6b4970d0176154b9ab4970c-pi
| Lord Percy wrote: | if the environment changes unnaturally fast it'll cause many problems for local populations in the parts that are affected. |
It's just struck me that political "conservatives" seem to be OK with the opportunities of climate change, while "progressives" seem to be horrified by the problems of it. 
Deserts! Well, stillsuits.
| Lord Percy wrote: | It would mean more mass migration too, and I know you aren't a fan of that! |
Depends on who's doing the migrating and in what direction. As the taiga opens up, it'll become Russia's opportunity/problem. Best of luck, you glorious drunken Commie bastards.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| Kris |
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Kris
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| Posted: 20:03 - 10 Mar 2016 Post subject: |
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Climategate was fun too.
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www.prisonplanet.com |
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| Lord Percy |
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Lord Percy
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Posted: 21:35 - 10 Mar 2016  Post subject: |
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Indeed.
https://www.skepticalscience.com/Climategate-CRU-emails-hacked.htm
https://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/solutions/fight-misinformation/debunking-misinformation-stolen-emails-climategate.html#.VuHkDpyLTIU
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climatic_Research_Unit_email_controversy#Inquiries_and_reports
| Quote: | Eight committees investigated the allegations and published reports, finding no evidence of fraud or scientific misconduct |
It's fine to argue that 'the world will go on', but to suggest there's some sort of underlying, nefarious, selfish agenda in climate change research is ridiculous.
To be honest it's pretty dumb, too. "Well, things don't feel that different, and we still have snow, so what are these people getting so worked up about?!" - typical, short-sighted, 'doesn't affect me personally' mindset.
I don't see why people are so against this climate change malarkey anyway. Desertification. Ice caps melting. Rising sea levels. All happening at a totally unnatural rate. Is there anything wrong with pointing that out, and acting to change it?
In previous eras we had things like pollution, disease etc all rife thanks to the way society was acting. It was detrimental to certain parts of the population and so was eventually stopped. There were no doubt groups of people, e.g. factory owners, who were not directly affected so argued against it all - "This thick black smog and dirty sewage has no relation at all to the things you're talking about, and if it does, then it's not like that many people are affected, humanity won't die out, will it?! Now leave me in peace in my country home, away from the dirty, smelly places you're talking about. It's nothing to do with me!"
Same is now happening of the global warming issue. "Meh, environmental and ecological catastrophes don't change things for me personally so who cares..."
Also, some claim it's some kind of a 'global warming religion' now. But that's stupid too, since these same people are probably also the types to say atheism and science is better than religion because the scientific method is about finding conclusions, evidence, and altering theories as research and understanding progresses. It's not about the preservation of a certain idea. The data tells the whole story. |
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| Kris |
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 22:46 - 10 Mar 2016 Post subject: |
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| Lord Percy wrote: | The data tells the whole story. |
Sure, once it's been "corrected".
I'm getting the feeling that you're still coming this from the "CO2 bad, warming bad, change bad, something must be done" perspective.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| Itchy |
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Itchy
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| ThoughtContro... |
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| Lord Percy |
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Lord Percy
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| Posted: 14:02 - 11 Mar 2016 Post subject: |
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| Rogerborg wrote: |
I'm getting the feeling that you're still coming this from the "CO2 bad, warming bad, change bad, something must be done" perspective. |
Well, yes, because predicted rising sea levels, desertification and crop failures are never a good thing.
| ThoughtControl wrote: |
Not long out of university. He's been edumacated with the "facts" about manbearpig. I'm super serial.
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I suppose being halfway through a physics degree, understanding the quantum mechanical properties of atoms, and the fact the resonance frequency of carbon is roughly similar to that of infra-red radiation, means nothing then.
One of the worst things about this country is the severe anti-intellectual, anti-knowledge stance taken by pretty much everyone who doesn't actually know any better.
Man-made acceleration of global warming is quite blatantly a real thing. I already said we'll undoubtedly survive it, the only problem is the massive shitstorm of local environmental changes that certain people will have to endure along the way. |
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| Im-a-Ridah |
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Im-a-Ridah
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| Posted: 14:21 - 11 Mar 2016 Post subject: |
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I do love it when people trot out the "don't you trust the science" line as if there is some kind of comparison between global warming and issues like whether the Earth is flat or round, whether evolution is real, and whether God exists. Science is much less reliable if the test is rigged or the people involved have a vast financial interest. Remove the financial interest and I'll be quite happy to look at your science. It's extremely difficult to independently verify climate data.
I've noticed that those who believe in global warming most passionately believe not in the scientific issue, but rather the political solution. They put the cart before the horse. They've got a solution, and they're scouting around for a problem it can solve, and global warming is convenient for that. Or since the globe stopped warming, it can be used for any kind of climate change, cooling warming or maybe even staying the same. So what's this solution? Solar panels, wind turbines, anti-nuclear, anti-industry, anti-growth, aid to Africa, other pages from the Green manifesto.
Doesn't it seem even just a tiny little bit suspicious that Global Warming means we need lots of regulation at an EU level, vast aid to Africa, and all the stuff that the Greenies want? Backed by evidence from the Greenies and the EU... |
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 14:30 - 11 Mar 2016 Post subject: |
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| Lord Percy wrote: | Well, yes, because predicted rising sea levels, desertification and crop failures are never a good thing. |
Over generations, as new arable land opens up.
Of course, if you pick the appropriate model, it could happen overnight. That would be alarming! And because something that would be alarming could happen we must pick that model and be alarmed.
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/21/article-0-06E2172A000005DC-603_468x286.jpg
| Lord Percy wrote: | Man-made acceleration of global warming is quite blatantly a real thing. |
Yes, the science is settled. We have models. Some of them even produce a fairly close approximation to observations once bad observations that contradict the model have been discarded and appropriate corrections to the remainder have been made.
https://i.imgur.com/fwdNdNQ.png
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 9 years, 162 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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