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| Beehive Bedlam |
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Beehive Bedlam
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 Posted: 21:54 - 09 Mar 2016  Post subject: Oil thread. |
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My Fazer is due a service soon. I like oil threads and have been wondering all day what the diffrence is between semi and full synthetic oil.
I'be found this which is about the same price as semi synthetic (motorcycle oil).
https://i.imgur.com/mzGCwYY.jpg
I change the oil and filter every 4K with car euro parts Triple QX usually.
Will there be any benefit in using fully synthetic? |
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RhynoCZ
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Posted: 23:29 - 09 Mar 2016  Post subject: |
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I'd go with what the manual says. Synthetic oils tend to be cleaner, but I might just be lucky there. I remember the mineral oils (dinosaur stuff) was not so durable. But then if you've got a motorcycle made before all the ''specific motorcycle oil'' was even invented, anything will go, I guess. Check for friction modifiers though. 
If your engine has magnesium parts and other fancy materials then definitely read the manual before you pour any oil in.
I use Motul 5100 Ester 10W40 (synthetic). I used it in a GPz550, CB-1, ZX7R, CBR919RR, FMX650, CB500, SV1000 and other motorcycle engines.
____________________
'87 Honda XBR 500, '96 Kawasaki ZX7R P1, '90 Honda CB-1, '88 Kawasaki GPz550, MZ 150 ETZ
'95 Mercedes-Benz w202 C200 CGI, '98 Mercedes-Benz w210 E200 Kompressor |
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weasley
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Pigeon
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Posted: 02:53 - 10 Mar 2016  Post subject: |
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tldr: A fully-synth APi SJ JASO MA2 is almost certainly going to be absolutely fine, as long as you believe the manufacturer about their labelling.
Alternative product
No experience of it, but thought about getting some.
Synthetic oil generally has a higher Viscosity Index, so has less variation between hot & cold. Synthetic oil, in theory, can go longer between service intervals because it is able to achieve it's multigrade rating without the use (or not so many) of viscosity modifiers.
Mineral & Semi-synth oils use viscosity modifiers to achieve that multigrade 10w40 rating. Problem is, VM's shear down as the oil does. All those forces and extreme temps break down the VM's. So your 10w40 oil becomes SAE 10 and your engine gets fecked.
| weasley wrote: | | RhynoCZ wrote: | Check for friction modifiers though. |
How? |
You can contact the oil producer / blender and ask for a Technical Data Sheet. Some companies just put them up for download, but often it's too high level to include specific friction modifiers.
UK companies seem to be less willing to come forward with details compared to their USA counterparts. Partly this might be a cultural thing, but as of API SM the ZDDP (Zinc base to protect metal on metal wear) content has been reduced (to 800ppm max) because of it's effect on catalytic converters in reducing their effectiveness. Trouble is, ZDDP is very useful and while companies have found alternative addins, it's been used for 100+ years and proven. So many oil companies are breaking API SN by supplying oil with higher ZDDP levels than the standard stipulates (typically 1000ppm from their previous average of 1200-1400ppm).
It's not as easy as buying zinc additive products (which you can do), because they interact with the other ingredients and there are no guarantees you won't actually end up with more damage.
API SM and SN allow the use of friction modifiers. Prior API's are far less likely to use them, particularly if they are diesel compatible oils and not rated ACEA A1 and don't say "economy" under the SAE sticker.
Molybdenum seems to be the most used friction reducing modifier.
But even that is included sometimes in oils advertised for motorcycles (including oil sold under Castrol and a top notch Honda brand a few years ago). As long as it's below 250ppm it seems to be ok (ideally below 100). Honda had it at 600ppm and because of the reduction in ZDDP levels (an additive that has friction inducing properties) it had resulted in reports of clutch slip and Honda stopped recommending it for certain bikes (high torque ones).
So a newish standard oil that is possibly going to be ok might be API SL/CF ACEA A3,B3,B4
But again, if it's not JASO MA or MA2, then you need to get data sheet from producer and the oil tested, or take a punt they are telling the truth 
Truth is, many SN rated products will be fine (if you can get confirmation on moly levels and maybe zddp above the standard).
Not to mention, SN oils should contain new additives to counteract the low zinc. Plus, modern engines apparently don't require as much zinc anyway.
Oil (copied from some other internet post):
Group I: Solvent frozen mineral oil. This is the least processed of all oils on the market today and is typically used in nonautomotive applications, though some of it may find its way into low-cost motor oils.
Group II: Hydro-processed and refined mineral oil. This is the most common of all petroleum oils and is the standard component of most petroleum-based automotive and motorcycle engine oils.
Group III (now called synthetic): The oils start as standard Group I oils and are processed to remove impurities, resulting in a more heat-stable compound than possible as a standard Group I or II oil. Some examples are Castrol Syntec automotive oil and Motorex Top Speed. These are the lowest cost synthetics to produce, and generally do not perform as well as Group IV or V oils.
Group IV: Polyalphaolefin, commonly called PAOs. These are the most common of the full synthetic oils, and usually offer big improvements in heat and overall stability when compared to Group III oils. They are produced in mass quantities and are reasonably inexpensive for full-synthetic oils. Since they are wax-free they offer high viscosity indexes (low temperature pour point) and often require little or no viscosity modifiers. Examples include Amsoil and Motorex Power Synt.
Group V: Esters. These oils start their life as plant or animal bases called fatty acids. They are then converted via a chemical reaction into esters or diesters which are then used as base stocks. Esters are polar, which means they act like a magnet and actually cling to metals. This supposedly offers much better protection on metal-to-metal surfaces than conventional PAOs, which do not have this polar effect. These base stock oils also act as a good solvent inside the engine, translating into cleaner operation. Esters are the most expensive to produce, and oils manufactured with them usually cost much more. Due to this higher cost, many companies only fortify their oils with esters. Some examples are Bel-Ray EXS, Torco MPZ Synthetic and Maxum 4 Extra. Motul 300V, however, uses 100 percent ester as its base oil, and is one of the more expensive oils.
EDIT:
Just to be clear, I've just vomited up a whole bunch of myth and legend gleamed from the internet. Which is the "mate down the pub" of it's time. Some of this came from TDS's too though. |
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Copyhat
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| Posted: 08:48 - 10 Mar 2016 Post subject: |
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| Pigeon wrote: | tldr: A fully-synth APi SJ JASO MA2 is almost certainly going to be absolutely fine, as long as you believe the manufacturer about their labelling.
Alternative product
No experience of it, but thought about getting some.
Synthetic oil generally has a higher Viscosity Index, so has less variation between hot & cold. Synthetic oil, in theory, can go longer between service intervals because it is able to achieve it's multigrade rating without the use (or not so many) of viscosity modifiers.
Mineral & Semi-synth oils use viscosity modifiers to achieve that multigrade 10w40 rating. Problem is, VM's shear down as the oil does. All those forces and extreme temps break down the VM's. So your 10w40 oil becomes SAE 10 and your engine gets fecked.
| weasley wrote: | | RhynoCZ wrote: | Check for friction modifiers though. |
How? |
You can contact the oil producer / blender and ask for a Technical Data Sheet. Some companies just put them up for download, but often it's too high level to include specific friction modifiers.
UK companies seem to be less willing to come forward with details compared to their USA counterparts. Partly this might be a cultural thing, but as of API SM the ZDDP (Zinc base to protect metal on metal wear) content has been reduced (to 800ppm max) because of it's effect on catalytic converters in reducing their effectiveness. Trouble is, ZDDP is very useful and while companies have found alternative addins, it's been used for 100+ years and proven. So many oil companies are breaking API SN by supplying oil with higher ZDDP levels than the standard stipulates (typically 1000ppm from their previous average of 1200-1400ppm).
It's not as easy as buying zinc additive products (which you can do), because they interact with the other ingredients and there are no guarantees you won't actually end up with more damage.
API SM and SN allow the use of friction modifiers. Prior API's are far less likely to use them, particularly if they are diesel compatible oils and not rated ACEA A1 and don't say "economy" under the SAE sticker.
Molybdenum seems to be the most used friction reducing modifier.
But even that is included sometimes in oils advertised for motorcycles (including oil sold under Castrol and a top notch Honda brand a few years ago). As long as it's below 250ppm it seems to be ok (ideally below 100). Honda had it at 600ppm and because of the reduction in ZDDP levels (an additive that has friction inducing properties) it had resulted in reports of clutch slip and Honda stopped recommending it for certain bikes (high torque ones).
So a newish standard oil that is possibly going to be ok might be API SL/CF ACEA A3,B3,B4
But again, if it's not JASO MA or MA2, then you need to get data sheet from producer and the oil tested, or take a punt they are telling the truth
Truth is, many SN rated products will be fine (if you can get confirmation on moly levels and maybe zddp above the standard).
Not to mention, SN oils should contain new additives to counteract the low zinc. Plus, modern engines apparently don't require as much zinc anyway.
Oil (copied from some other internet post):
Group I: Solvent frozen mineral oil. This is the least processed of all oils on the market today and is typically used in nonautomotive applications, though some of it may find its way into low-cost motor oils.
Group II: Hydro-processed and refined mineral oil. This is the most common of all petroleum oils and is the standard component of most petroleum-based automotive and motorcycle engine oils.
Group III (now called synthetic): The oils start as standard Group I oils and are processed to remove impurities, resulting in a more heat-stable compound than possible as a standard Group I or II oil. Some examples are Castrol Syntec automotive oil and Motorex Top Speed. These are the lowest cost synthetics to produce, and generally do not perform as well as Group IV or V oils.
Group IV: Polyalphaolefin, commonly called PAOs. These are the most common of the full synthetic oils, and usually offer big improvements in heat and overall stability when compared to Group III oils. They are produced in mass quantities and are reasonably inexpensive for full-synthetic oils. Since they are wax-free they offer high viscosity indexes (low temperature pour point) and often require little or no viscosity modifiers. Examples include Amsoil and Motorex Power Synt.
Group V: Esters. These oils start their life as plant or animal bases called fatty acids. They are then converted via a chemical reaction into esters or diesters which are then used as base stocks. Esters are polar, which means they act like a magnet and actually cling to metals. This supposedly offers much better protection on metal-to-metal surfaces than conventional PAOs, which do not have this polar effect. These base stock oils also act as a good solvent inside the engine, translating into cleaner operation. Esters are the most expensive to produce, and oils manufactured with them usually cost much more. Due to this higher cost, many companies only fortify their oils with esters. Some examples are Bel-Ray EXS, Torco MPZ Synthetic and Maxum 4 Extra. Motul 300V, however, uses 100 percent ester as its base oil, and is one of the more expensive oils.
EDIT:
Just to be clear, I've just vomited up a whole bunch of myth and legend gleamed from the internet. Which is the "mate down the pub" of it's time. Some of this came from TDS's too though. |
This pretty much sums up what I know about oil classes and friction modifiers. Thinking about using Shell Hellix HX7 10W-40 for my VFR next time an oil change is due.
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Past: '91 Honda NTV650, '93 Kawasaki GPZ 500S
Current: '91 Honda VFR750F, '83 Suzuki GSX400F |
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| Matt B |
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Matt B
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Posted: 10:30 - 10 Mar 2016  Post subject: |
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The manufacturers/distributors claim that oil is JASO MA2 but it's not showing the correct labelling for a product that's gone through the testing process. The JASO label should have a box around it with a registration number to prove it. If you believe that it really is JASO spec and not just re-badged car oil then it should be fine.
For a few quid more on ebay you can get 5 litres of a trusted brand (Motul 5000) with proper JASO MA2 spec if you are after a bike specific oil.
Edit - if you want to know the actual differences between oil types and specs in testing have a read of both parts here https://www.sportrider.com/oils-well-ends-well-part-1
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Last edited by Matt B on 10:33 - 10 Mar 2016; edited 1 time in total |
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RhynoCZ
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| Posted: 10:31 - 10 Mar 2016 Post subject: |
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| weasley wrote: | | RhynoCZ wrote: | Check for friction modifiers though. |
How? |
What pigeon says, OR I just buy specific motorcycle oil, as it costs the same here as the car oil. A bit more if you take the brand name in consideration, but I pay about £19.45 for 4L of the Motul 5100 or £5.13 per 1L (the ZX7R does not burn oil, so I buy 3x1L and have the rest 0.2dcL of oil from my mates 4L bottel, as he needs more than 3L of oil).
The GPz burned oil and the CB-1 was spitting it into the intake, so I used tu buy the 4L bottle.
-----------------------
Side note, watch out for counterfeited oils. Those are just rebranded cheap car oils and sometimes even not that. Fancier the logo on the bottle, higher the chances are. Shell and Castrol products are often being counterfeited.
____________________
'87 Honda XBR 500, '96 Kawasaki ZX7R P1, '90 Honda CB-1, '88 Kawasaki GPz550, MZ 150 ETZ
'95 Mercedes-Benz w202 C200 CGI, '98 Mercedes-Benz w210 E200 Kompressor |
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Pjay
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weasley
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| Posted: 12:31 - 10 Mar 2016 Post subject: |
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Since OP wanted an "oil thread", here goes...
| Pigeon wrote: | Synthetic oil generally has a higher Viscosity Index, so has less variation between hot & cold. Synthetic oil, in theory, can go longer between service intervals because it is able to achieve it's multigrade rating without the use (or not so many) of viscosity modifiers. |
Sort of true. Even synthetics use some VM.
| Pigeon wrote: | Mineral & Semi-synth oils use viscosity modifiers to achieve that multigrade 10w40 rating. Problem is, VM's shear down as the oil does. All those forces and extreme temps break down the VM's. So your 10w40 oil becomes SAE 10 and your engine gets fecked. |
Basis in truth, but exaggerated beyond fantasy. VMs do shear, but some shear more than others, and a good bike oil manufacturer will use the better, more expensive, more shear-stable VMs.
| Pigeon wrote: |
You can contact the oil producer / blender and ask for a Technical Data Sheet. Some companies just put them up for download, but often it's too high level to include specific friction modifiers. |
TDSs will never give away formulation content. They might hint at what's used, but they are not somewhere to find if a friction modifier is used (or not).
| Pigeon wrote: | ...<sperg>...
Group I: Solvent frozen mineral oil. This is the least processed of all oils on the market today and is typically used in nonautomotive applications, though some of it may find its way into low-cost motor oils. |
They are solvent refined and plenty of group I goes into entry-level engine oils or is mixed with group III to make a semi-synthetic.
| Pigeon wrote: | Group II: Hydro-processed and refined mineral oil. This is the most common of all petroleum oils and is the standard component of most petroleum-based automotive and motorcycle engine oils. |
Not in Europe it isn't, as there are few, if any, sources of group II in Europe.
| Pigeon wrote: | Group III (now called synthetic): The oils start as standard Group I oils... |
Sort of, but they don't take already-refined group I as a feedstock, they take raw refinery output.
| Pigeon wrote: | ...and are processed to remove impurities, resulting in a more heat-stable compound than possible as a standard Group I or II oil.
Group IV: [mostly correct]
Group V: Esters.... <chemistry sperg> |
Group V is defined by the API as "anything not in groups I to IV". In other words, a very, very wide group of base oils. Esters are in there, yes. But so are low-quality mineral oils (ones that are not good enough to reach the standard of group I, such as medium- or low-VI, high-naphthenics) and polyglycols and PIBs and PIOs and even vegetable oils (eg castor oil).
| Pigeon wrote: | EDIT:
Just to be clear, I've just vomited up a whole bunch of myth and legend gleamed from the internet. Which is the "mate down the pub" of it's time. Some of this came from TDS's too though. |
My point is that so much internet myth and legend around oils is exactly that, but repeated as fact ad nauseum to the point of being upheld as correct (defence exhibit A displayed above, m'lud).
To answer my own question (ie "How [can you tell if an oil has a friction modifier in it]?") the answer is, you can't. You might infer from data sheets or performance specifications that an FM is used, but it isn't a given and neither is it true that all FMs affect all clutches. Even doing a chemical analysis of the oil can be inconclusive, because contrary to the statement in the intersperg, the most commonly-used FMs are not all based on molybdenum (and not all Mo-containing additives are FMs) - in fact they are often organic molecules (meaning no easily-detected metal elements) which get lost in the noise. A well-trained analytical chemist with FTIR, GC-MS, NMR and other techniques could probably isolate the FM, but who here has one of those (a well-trained chemist or any of the very-expensive machines-that-go-ping)? I do.... anyone else...? 
Being practical about it, FMs are generally used in engine oils that are chasing fuel efficiency. Nobody chases fuel efficiency with a 10W-40 oil, which is the common viscosity for Bodyform's Fazer and loads of other bikes, so it's a moot point.
There, oil thread...done.
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 12:37 - 10 Mar 2016 Post subject: |
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So, Tesco's cheapest 10W40, or... ?
____________________
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GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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weasley
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| Posted: 14:28 - 10 Mar 2016 Post subject: |
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| weasley wrote: | A well-trained analytical chemist with FTIR, GC-MS, NMR and other techniques could probably isolate the FM, but who here has one of those (a well-trained chemist or any of the very-expensive machines-that-go-ping)? I do.... anyone else...?
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I do but I'd never just put "raw" oil onto an IR or NMR, you should know this.
You'd need some form of separation, as you refer to GC, or solvent extraction.
PS our 5/600 MHz NMRs don't go ping, they just go "uuhhhhmmmmm". What have you got?
But yeah, Tesco/Asda/Morrisons semi synth 10w40 for me.
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Did have: '95 ZZR600 '83 CG125 '97 ZZR1100 '15 Hypermotard 821 SP Do Have: '10 ZX10R |
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Pigeon
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| Posted: 22:23 - 10 Mar 2016 Post subject: |
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| Copyhat wrote: |
Thinking about using Shell Hellix HX7 10W-40 for my VFR next time an oil change is due.
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Me too (except 5w40). Shell Helix product in UK is roughly equivalent to the Shell Rotella in America that seems very popular with bike people.
And while Shell UK did provide me with some info on ZDDP and Moly content it was a range of values, they would not commit to stating the value. They were also very corporate and uninterested. Which is to be expected I guess, and completely up to them, but it's equally completely up to me what products I buy. Shell America seem to go out of their way for their customers, not so much in the UK it seems.
However Fuchs on the other hand have been fantastic. One of their R&D chemists has sent over lots of info, confirmed content levels and confirmed I can use some of their car oils in my bikes.
And while it may all be lies and considered by many to be an unnecessary risk I'm probably going to be buying their oil.
But I first want to get back as much information from the 6 other companies I contacted.
| weasley wrote: |
| Pigeon wrote: | Mineral & Semi-synth oils use viscosity modifiers to achieve that multigrade 10w40 rating. Problem is, VM's shear down as the oil does. All those forces and extreme temps break down the VM's. So your 10w40 oil becomes SAE 10 and your engine gets fecked. |
Basis in truth, but exaggerated beyond fantasy. VMs do shear, but some shear more than others, and a good bike oil manufacturer will use the better, more expensive, more shear-stable VMs.
|
OK thanks, I may have exaggerated a touch I have seen some lovely charts on my travels showing terrible viscosity performance after limited running. I do love a nice graph.
I used Castrol semi 10w40 in my 125 for 3 years, swapping it out every 1750 miles (by which time gear changes were stiffer and finding neutral problematic.
I got my SV and used the same oil. Bought from Halfords. Within 2000 miles (manual says 4k interval) I found finding neutral very difficult, at WOT there was definite clutch slip and it started using oil at around 100ml every 100 miles.
So I swapped it out for Castrol fully-synth 10w40 and it stopped using oil, it stopped slipping the clutch at WOT. Happy days.
But at around 2,800 miles the sticky box came back.
So off on my internet travels and finding many posts slagging off Castrol motorcycle oil. Predominantly around how badly it shears down and how quickly. Several people have paid for oil analysis in the hunt for something better. And while you shouldn't draw too many conclusions from a few peoples posts, it has for me tied up with my limited use. I won't buy Castrol motorcycle oil now when there are plenty of analysis reports from products like Shell Rotella (Helix) which indicate excellent wear rates.
My dad recently decided to stop servicing his own car having reached 70 and bought a newer one. He offered me his Halfords 5w40 fully-synth and some Total 10w40 semi.
I've been running the 5w40 Halfords for about 400 miles now and it's so far brilliant. Halved the time spent on choke in the mornings. Super smooth gear change. After the bike has been left in gear all day, when I come back to it I can instantly find neutral with the engine off. Bike so far running better than it was. Most of these advantages (to me) are just because it's 5w40 instead of 10w40 and it's new.
Am I storing up issues for later, possibly.
But on a 50k mile 16yr old SV that has a ticky cam chain and a clattery / knocking front cylinder, it's a risk I felt happy taking
If we make it to 2,800 miles it will be interesting to see what its like.
But I'll await to see what responses come back form the other oil supliers as to what my regular fix is for my SV. So far, Fuchs is winning.
My Striple is currently running Motul 7100 5w40. So I'm not quite ready to fully commit to the dark side
| weasley wrote: |
A well-trained analytical chemist with FTIR, GC-MS, NMR and other techniques could probably isolate the FM, but who here has one of those (a well-trained chemist or any of the very-expensive machines-that-go-ping)? I do.... anyone else...?
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Fantasitc! A man who knows what he's talking about
Can you test oil? Would you consider testing forum members oil?
Not looking for a freebie, just someone who knows what they are doing and can be trusted. Happy to pay. Particularly if other members club together to get a BCF approved oil 
EDIT: damnit, I spent so long waffling I see this has already been answered.
Thanks for all the corrections at least, very good to know. Updating my notes at home. |
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Commuter_Tim
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| Posted: 00:34 - 11 Mar 2016 Post subject: |
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First successful BodyGuard thread?
In my head right now im reciting the end speech from Rocky IV after he beats the russian...
EVERYBODY CAN CHANGE! (Their Username)
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The above post is most likely nonsensical.
I ride a Bandit 600... badly. |
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bigup
Nitrous Nuisance
Joined: 22 Jul 2008
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| Posted: 07:51 - 11 Mar 2016 Post subject: |
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Pjay
World Chat Champion
Joined: 18 Jan 2016
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| Posted: 08:55 - 11 Mar 2016 Post subject: |
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That's what I use, £40 in Halfords... |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 8 years, 41 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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