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Motorhate |
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Motorhate Nearly there...
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Posted: 18:50 - 18 May 2016 Post subject: |
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G wrote: |
Very recently I went to a Rugby match.
I was informed that the crowd there are much less, ah, 'lively' compared to football.
I've also been to many other events with large numbers of people.
At none of them has anyone ever been killed by people pushing.
Do you believe that pushing towards fixed limited entry points is acceptable behaviour? |
I disagree with the general opinion that everyone was pushing which I'll address later but the cold hard fact is the police caused this due to their inability to control a crowd.
Look at the facts:
There were nearly 200 less police for that game then there would have been normally.
They opened up only half of the available turnstiles and expected thousands of people to pass through gaps no bigger than the width of a human body within a time frame of 20mins. 24,000 people to pass through 23 turnstiles in the space of a little over 20mins? That was never going to happen without incident now was it?
There were no cordons set up by the police, in order for people to form queues, so effectively it was a free for all.
The layout of the area outside the ground was in no way designed to safely contain large numbers of people stuck outside the ground for a long period of time - something the police openly admit, regardless of pushing or otherwise.
The police had no way of counting the amount of people who had already entered the stadium and could not tell if overcrowding was taking place or not effectively.
The police had form of this in the late 80s - a year before, West Ham played an away game at QPR which I was at, and an almost identical situation arose. I was caught up in that - nobody was pushing, it was just the sheer weight of people moving forward meant you had no other way of going in any other direction. A couple of times my feet were literally off the ground, being carried by the sheer weight of people moving forward. The only reason there were no deaths that day was because our lot had to get onto the pitch to avoid being crushed. Had there been barriers at the ground, there would have been deaths - no ifs or buts.
In fact there's footage of it here. Ignore the bit about "forged tickets" its complete bollocks. There were NO forged tickets, they just said that to cover the old bill's arse as they'd made a right mess of the handling of the situation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxyiyQEAA5U
I'm no fan of the scousers but fairs fair on this one. They were stitched up good and proper by a corrupt police force and deserved justice. Its just a shame the tabloids at the time did their usual trick of blaming the football fans which many people still believe, despite the facts staring them straight in the face. ____________________ Current - Harley Davidson FXDB Street Bob | Harley Davidson FLTR Road Glide | Harley Davidson Road King
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G The Voice of Reason
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Motorhate Nearly there...
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Posted: 19:51 - 18 May 2016 Post subject: |
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G wrote: | I did actually 'laugh out loud' reading this. |
Good for you. I'm sure you know more about what went on than the official inquiry than the people that actually read it
Quote: | Other crowds of similar volumes in similar situations didn't and don't need controlling, when the same police were present. |
??? Of course crowds need controlling, why are there always police on demonstrations, and gatherings of over a certain amount of people which require a police presence by law?
How many of these other crowds you speak of were forced into dangerously small enclosed areas without any queuing system or proper police organisation? In case its slipped past you, the police are employed by the football authorities to organise the safe movement of large groups of people at sporting events. On this particular day they messed up big time but didn't have the balls to own up to it.
Oh and actually, I've heard of numerous reports of gigs at Wembley Arena where fans have been almost crushed against the crash barriers and had to be hauled out by security. Same goes for many other festivals where people have had to be lifted over the barriers to avoid being crushed.
Quote: | If people aren't pushing, how does this 'sheer weight of people' get to the point people are being crushed? At some point anyone not being careless should stop. |
Again, I'll say unless you've experienced it then its pointless trying to explain. If people are packed so tightly together and are simply moving forward, I defy anyone to stop the momentum of a crowd like that. Nobody apart from those at the front will be able to see what's going on. The notion that "not being careless should stop" is laughable in the face of such a large amount of people.
Quote: | Football particularly encourages tribalism and the related antipathy to other tribes. Said tribalism often seems to be prevent individual common sense and morality in said fans. |
The same can be said for a lot of groups - anyone remember the Tottenham riots? What's your point? Because football had a bad reputation 30 years ago it means the fans were to blame for Hilsborough? Really? Is that your logic?
Quote: | There were NO forged tickets,
None, not one at all? How can you be sure.
I doubt it was a big issue personally, but I don't see how you can be sure about that. |
Because afterwards many independent sports journalists and news agencies asked for proof, the details of the investigation and if any suspects had been caught. The silence was deafening and it was quietly brushed under the carpet. No arrests, no investigation, no mention of any criminal proceedings either. The line the media trotted out was direct from the Police - so no bias there at all eh? They were just covering up for their ineptness and blaming it on the fans again - just like they did with the scousers. Only in this case, they said that all the fans were drunk. That proved not to be the case at all.
lihp wrote: |
Rugby season ticket holder.
Nobody pushes to get through turnstiles.
Again, who was pushing? |
You seem to be comparing tens of thousands fans in a huge fixture at the time, in a very limited space with no organised queuing system and no crowd control with your local rugby team which just don't compare.
The police created an environment where a huge crowd was contained in a small area, way to small to accommodate the crowd comfortably to the point where it was deadly and proceeded to drip feed the amount of people passing through the turnstiles. It wasn't a case of anyone pushing, it was a case of people trying to prevent themselves being crushed to death. That's been admitted in the report. Yet some people still blame the fans ... FFS ... really? ____________________ Current - Harley Davidson FXDB Street Bob | Harley Davidson FLTR Road Glide | Harley Davidson Road King
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Posted: 20:33 - 18 May 2016 Post subject: |
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Motorhate wrote: |
??? Of course crowds need controlling, why are there always police on demonstrations, and gatherings of over a certain amount of people which require a police presence by law? |
Why are there always police at gatherings over a certain amount of people which require a police presence by law? .
The large crowds I've been in have not required controlling by the police.
How were these people 'forced' into this dangerous small enclosed area?
And by that, do you mean outside the stadium, which is the initial part I'm considering? If not, do you think the police forced the situation outside the stadium?
I've regularly gone over the barriers at the front of festivals so I can get out quickly ahead of the crowd just before the end, err, to avoid being crushed?
Quote: | Again, I'll say unless you've experienced it then its pointless trying to explain. |
Is it really that complicated that it can't be explained without someone placing themselves in the same situation?
If people are packed so tightly together and are simply moving forward, I defy anyone to stop the momentum of a crowd like that. Nobody apart from those at the front will be able to see what's going on. The notion that "not being careless should stop" is laughable in the face of such a large amount of people.
Quote: | The same can be said for a lot of groups - anyone remember the Tottenham riots? What's your point? Because football had a bad reputation 30 years ago it means the fans were to blame for Hilsborough? Really? Is that your logic? |
Yes, I don't think people involved in the tottenham riots should blame others for injuries they received either. I think that such tribalism is a very bad thing. This is not related to reputation, but the actions that happened.
My point is that I like absolving blame from people who behaved dangerously is a bad idea. I have not seen any good explanation of why the fans did not behave dangerously.
How does any of what you say prove there was no forged tickets at all?
Quote: | You seem to be comparing tens of thousands fans in a huge fixture at the time, in a very limited space with no organised queuing system and no crowd control with your local rugby team which just don't compare. |
The Rugby game I went to had over 80k spectators.
I did not see one bit of trouble. People queued up with space between them. People let others through, were polite and did not try and rush.
Those that were late in didn't try and push or carry on if there was others in their way.
If the football fans at Hillsborough had acted in the same way, do you think this situation would still have happened?
I think this is a very important point about the situation and those who is to entirely absolve said fans of all blame. |
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Posted: 21:51 - 18 May 2016 Post subject: |
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lihp wrote: |
Grand final 70k+ every year
Challenge Cup final 70k+ every year
100k at Bradford in the 50s
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Ah, you're a League fan. Didn't realise.
If we wanted to get into pissing competitions though, I could site weekly football games from the 40s and 50s with gates in excess of 80k which passed off without incident. Almost every FA Cup final with gates of 80 - 90k that passed off without incident. Probably because the old bill were on top of their game on that particular day. At Hilsborough, they weren't.
Quote: |
Wow, you found 1 rugby league incident, Salford are scumbags anyway. The whole town is. The daily mail article is a massive overreaction.
There was no crushing, and that's not why the players were in the crowd. It started from a group on a stag do shouting vile abusive rants at a player on their own team, that continued for the whole game till he got fed up.
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Fair enough. But you see how things get distorted and what really happened gets lost to what he media report?
Quote: |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPekuO0tHQI
^^^^ Would that happen with football fans? With 2 of the biggest rivals at a final?
Say, MUFC vs Liverpool? Or Newcastle and Sunderland?
I am guessing they wouldn't even be allowed that close to each other. |
Yep - more than likely and there'll be teams that will just never really get on - West Ham and Millwall being a prime example.
I didn't really want to get into an argument about who had the better behaved sets of fans - the other poster compared rugby fans to football fans hance my reaction and I will not for one minute say that football fans are saints ... far from it. I have seen and been involved in some particular violent incidents over the years at football and will be the first to admit that there have been some ugly scenes at football both in the UK and the rest of the world.
My point I suppose was that back in the 80s it was easy to blame the football fans for the shortcomings of the police. The police would get away with things at football matches back then which would be deemed imprisonable criminal acts but because it was at football they got away with it. Football fans were public enemy number one - Maggie more or less said so herself. Hillsborough was another example of the police thinking they were untouchable and could deflect blame onto the fans. ____________________ Current - Harley Davidson FXDB Street Bob | Harley Davidson FLTR Road Glide | Harley Davidson Road King
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Rogerborg nimbA
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Posted: 08:05 - 19 May 2016 Post subject: |
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Motorhate wrote: | Read the report. |
Have you? Not the reports on the report, the report itself.
I've read it. It covers the history of Liverpool fans repeatedly and recently kicking off, rioting, looting, pitch invasions, hurling abuse and spit at coppers trying to control them, and the delightfully euphemistic phrase "some friction between supporters".
It talks about the "crush" outside of the ground as though this were an inevitable result of the police "[losing] control of the crowd" and then quite bizarrely characterises this as not being "crowd disorder". I can't think of a phrase that better describes it.
From then on it focusses entirely on the police decisions (which were wrong) and the consequences, but not once does it touch on why so many of the fans turned up so late, or why those at the back chose to physically press on those in front of them, other than Superintendent Marshall's view of their thought processes: "it's eight minutes away from kick-off and I'm gonna be in that ground come hell or high water".
I'm not sure how that absolves anyone of responsibility for pushing on the person in front of them, which any rational person would understand achieves nothing useful in that situation. Did they not have free will?
That doesn't mean that the police were right. They weren't. They made a pig's ear of it. But presenting the fans as passive victims, bearing no responsibility for their choices, or their past or instant actions, is astonishing. It smacks of a pre-determined politically motivated conclusion and also literally dehumanises them.
Motorhate wrote: | crush happens |
Why?
Motorhate wrote: | people being crushed |
By whom?
Motorhate wrote: | surge forward to stop themselves being crushed. |
By whom?
Motorhate wrote: | Maybe the fans were to blame because they didn't want to be crushed to death. |
By whom? ____________________ Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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Motorhate Nearly there...
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Posted: 08:48 - 19 May 2016 Post subject: |
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Lets just clear a few things up:
On 12 September 2012, the Hillsborough Independent Panel concluded that no Liverpool fans were responsible in any way for the disaster, and that its main cause was a "lack of police control". Crowd safety was "compromised at every level". If you can be bothered, its all here in black and white:
https://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/
Rogerborg wrote: | but not once does it touch on why so many of the fans turned up so late |
Its in the report. Most of the fans came by car or coach and the police closed off many of the surrounding roads in their infinite wisdom, which combined with roadworks further away accounted for many fans turning up late. Simple as that. There was no mass conspiracy to "charge the gates" as you're insinuating.
But again, you're bringing it back to the mantra that the victims are to blame for their own demise. Because of the crowd management by the police, the fans brought about the situation that ensued. Absolute rubbish.
The commander on the day, (and the one who ordered the opening of the gate that caused the crush) Duckenfield said..... "It was a situation I was totally untrained for, totally unprecedented, and I make no excuses. I was the man who did it. Even after the gates were opened, the ensuing disaster could have been avoided if fans had been directed to the outer pens by the police but they weren't. ____________________ Current - Harley Davidson FXDB Street Bob | Harley Davidson FLTR Road Glide | Harley Davidson Road King
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Posted: 09:28 - 19 May 2016 Post subject: |
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G wrote: | If the fans had followed what I had described above, would this disaster have happened?
Did the police advice people to keep moving forward when there was not a comfortable space between them? |
Yes they did - Duckenfield has agreed his failure to close a tunnel "was the direct cause of the deaths of 96 people". I don't think you can get clearer than that can you? He also said in his testimony on Hillsborough "Furthermore, whilst you say so accurately that the fans were not, shall we say, fighting or causing trouble, the Liverpool fans were very good, it was still a concern and a matter for me to observe what was going on there."
You keep going on about individuals stopping themselves from moving forward and crushing up against others. It just doesn't happen like that when you have a mass of people being moved foward as one solid mass. There is no room for individual thought, especially in the confined spaces that was the Leppings Lane end of Hillsborough - I know, I've actually been there with West Ham in the early 90s. Back then, the police treated football fans like cattle, herding them into, around and away from stadiums. In fact, a similar disaster almost occurred in a game years before between Wolves and Tottenham Hotspur and it was only be a miracle that there were no deaths that day either. ____________________ Current - Harley Davidson FXDB Street Bob | Harley Davidson FLTR Road Glide | Harley Davidson Road King
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Rogerborg nimbA
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Posted: 10:16 - 19 May 2016 Post subject: |
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Motorhate wrote: | Crowd safety was "compromised at every level". |
Ah, top notch, you've read a couple of pages into the summary.
Again: have you read the whole report?
I have, and I find some of the conclusions, particularly the omissions, to be, in their words, "contentious and disturbing".
For example, they decry that the victims were tested for alcohol, while choosing not to mention what to me looks like a significant finding from the post mortems: that later-entering victims had substantially higher blood-alcohol levels than earlier-entering ones.
An unbiased observer might reasonably generalise that to conclude that later fans - the ones at the back doing the crushing - were late because they'd been drinking, and that they were pushing forwards because they'd been drinking.
You're aware of all this, of course, having read the whole report and its sources, and having made up your own mind rather than just parroting the summary. ____________________ Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
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Motorhate Nearly there...
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Posted: 10:29 - 19 May 2016 Post subject: |
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Rogerborg wrote: | For example, they decry that the victims were tested for alcohol, while choosing not to mention what to me looks like a significant finding from the post mortems: that later-entering victims had substantially higher blood-alcohol levels than earlier-entering ones.
An unbiased observer might reasonably generalise that to conclude that later fans - the ones at the back doing the crushing - were late because they'd been drinking, and that they were pushing forwards because they'd been drinking.
You're aware of all this, of course, having read the whole report and its sources, and having made up your own mind rather than just parroting the summary. |
You posing a hypothetical question for which you have no evidence for whatsoever but I'll humour you ...
you mention the wholly unreliable post-mortems that included tests for alcohol which were used to try and pin blame on the fans? :
https://www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/10/30/hillsborough-alcohol-sampling
The fact is, the fans were found to be blameless in the enquiry. In fact, here's a transcript of the verdicits (complete with timeline) as they were read out in court. If you're looking for someone to blame, the culprits are all laid out in full (see question 7 in regard to the fans):
11:24
QUESTION FOURTEEN
Emergency response and the role of South Yorkshire Metropolitan Ambulance Service (SYMAS): After the crush in the west terrace had begun to develop, was there any error or omission by the ambulance service SYMAS which caused or contributed to the loss of lives in the disaster?
JURY: YES
11:24
QUESTION THIRTEEN
Emergency response and the role of South Yorkshire Police: After the crush in the West Terrace had begun to develop was there any error or omission by the police which caused or contributed to the loss of lives in the disaster?
JURY: YES
11:23
QUESTION TWELVE
Conduct of Eastwood and Partners (SWFC engineers): Should they have done more to detect and advise on any unsafe or unsatisfactory features of the stadium which caused or contributed to the disaster?
JURY: YES
11:22
QUESTION ELEVEN
Conduct of Sheffield Wednesday FC on the day of the match: Was there any error or omission by SWFC and its staff on 15 April 1989 which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation that developed at the Leppings Lane turnstiles and in the west terrace?
JURY: NO
11:21
QUESTION TEN
Conduct of Sheffield Wednesday FC before the day of the match: Was there any error or omission by SWFC and its staff in the management of the stadium and/or preparation for the semi-final match on 15 April 1989 which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation which developed on the day of the match?
JURY: YES
11:20
QUESTION NINE
Licensing and oversight of the stadium: Was there any error or omission in the safety certification and oversight of Hillsborough Stadium that caused or contributed to the disaster?
JURY: YES
11:19
QUESTION EIGHT
Defects in Hillsborough stadium: Were there any features of its design, construction and layout which were dangerous or defective and which probably or may have caused or contributed to the disaster?
JURY: YES
11:18
QUESTION SEVEN
Behaviour of the supporters: Was there any behaviour on the part of the football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles? If yes was that behaviour unusual or unforeseeable?
JURY: NO
11:17
QUESTION SIX
Unlawful killing: Are you satisfied, so that you are sure, that those who died in the disaster were unlawfully killed?
JURY: YES
11:16
QUESTION FIVE
The opening of the gates: When the order was given to open the exit gates at the Leppings Lane end of the stadium was there any error or omission by the commanding officers in the control box which caused or contributed to the crush on the terrace?
JURY: YES
11:15
QUESTION FOUR
Policing of the match and the crush on the terrace: Was there any error or omission by commanding officers which caused or contributed to the crush on the terrace?
JURY: YES
11:15
QUESTION THREE
Policing of the match and the situation at the turnstiles: Was there any error or omission in policing on the day of the match which caused or contributed to a dangerous situation developing at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?
JURY: YES
11:14
QUESTION TWO
Police planning for the semi-final match: Was there any error or omission in police planning or preparation which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation that developed on the day of the match?
JURY: YES
11:14
QUESTION ONE
Basic facts of the disaster: Do you agree with the following statement: "On 15 April 1989, 96 people died in the disaster at the Hillsborough stadium as a result of crushing in the central pens of the Leppings Lane terrace following the admission of a large number of supporters to the stadium through exit gates".
JURY: YES
There you have it. The tribunal and the Inquest spent 5 years looking at the whole drunkeness / fans trying to get in without tickets etc. and found no evidence. The fans were screwed over by the police, the government and the press. Simple as that. ____________________ Current - Harley Davidson FXDB Street Bob | Harley Davidson FLTR Road Glide | Harley Davidson Road King
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Last edited by Motorhate on 10:40 - 19 May 2016; edited 1 time in total |
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Posted: 10:33 - 19 May 2016 Post subject: |
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_miscarriage_of_justice_cases#United_Kingdom
How twelve random members of the public believe something's happened when presented evidence from people highly skilled in manipulating said members of the public doesn't always represent reality. Nor does a situation where, as I understand it, people keep requesting an issue to be looked at until they get the outcome they want.
This seems to be very specific to football fans, with other 'fans' and people in similar situations not suffering the same problems.
So to more accurately refelect the situation, I've made some edits
Motorhate wrote: |
You keep going on about individuals stopping themselves from moving forward and crushing up against others. It just doesn't happen like that when you have a mass of football fans being moved foward as one solid mass. There is no room for football fans to have individual thought, especially in the confined spaces that was the Leppings Lane end of Hillsborough - I know, I've actually been there with West Ham in the early 90s. Back then, the police treated football fans like they don't have free thought and might end up crushing people trying to get through turnstiles into the stadium, herding them into, around and away from stadiums. In fact, a similar disaster almost occurred in a game years before between Wolves and Tottenham Hotspur and it was only be a miracle that there were no deaths that day either. |
Fans and people in other situations either have enough free thought to stop moving before a crush develops or their-group think is less, well, stupid. |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 7 years, 333 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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